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"Did Batman Kill The Joker At The End Of ‘The Killing Joke’?"

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Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
He kills him and then commits suicide, hence the empty last panel.
hc0DJsr.gif
 

iirate

Member
I've never seen the needle theory before, but I think it has merit.

First he's speculating by saying "maybe this is our last chance" and when he says that they're locked onto a suicide course he's just affirming that he'll work to stop Joker until the day they both die. It doesn't make sense that just because Joker says it's an impossibility that Batman would now decide "fuck it, I'm gonna kill him." Killing Joke is partly about who these two characters are and it showcases that they will not err in their ways no matter the circumstance. For Batman it was Barbara being crippled and having nude photos taken of her, for Joker it was his very rival offering him an out.

He wants to help him, but he's also not going to give him an ultimatum that includes a death threat, since that's exactly what Joker seems to want anyways.

It's ambiguous, and the only thing I 100% believe at this point is that Moore wanted it that way. The main thing that frustrates me is anyone pointing towards "proof" of one theory or the other, considering that just about every piece of supposed "proof" has been used effectively as evidence for both arguments.
 
Joker stopped laughing and was struck dumb when he realized Batman was really laughing. That's it. Joker just suddenly stopped laughing. Isn't that more dramatic than Batman stopping him laughing by killing him?
 

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
He wants to help him, but he's also not going to give him an ultimatum that includes a death threat, since that's exactly what Joker seems to want anyways.

It's ambiguous, and the only thing I 100% believe at this point is that Moore wanted it that way. The main thing that frustrates me is anyone pointing towards "proof" of one theory or the other, considering that just about every piece of supposed "proof" has been used effectively as evidence for both arguments.
I agree, it's entirely open to interpretation. I'm just offering my view of it.
 

PreFire

Member
Batman doesn't kill, only in the movies.

He probably just beat the living shit out of Joker until the brink of death
 
Although it'd be cool to have that sort of ambiguity in the ending, there is absolutely nothing suggesting he kills him besides baseless fan speculation.

He puts his hand on his shoulder, the script clearly ends with them leaning together and laughing

Yeah I think when you really get down to it, there isn't any real evidence of a murder happening. I actually like the idea of Batman finally snapping so that's the interpretation I'll go with personally, but I dont pretend that the panels back it up. Only that they are ambiguous enough for me to pretend it's the truth.

Did Batman strangle the ambulance too, since it stops making noise?

Haha beautiful. Not man nor machine will stand in Crazy Batman's way.
 

Surface of Me

I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
The lights at the end of the panel go off because they saw Batman kill the Joker and realized an ambulance was no longer needed.
 

sangreal

Member
there are no lights in the last panel because they finish zooming in so much that you can't see the lights anymore. it says so right in the script

"now we have closed in so much we just see the silver-white ripples pattern spreading out across the inky blackness"
 
That's a cop car coming towards them right? The noise just stops because they just witnessed Batman kill the Joker.

But then again, they could've stopped because they saw the bats laughing at with the Joker. That's the "Killing Joke". Them both going crazy.
 

Stet

Banned
That's a cop car coming towards them right? The noise just stops because they just witnessed Batman kill the Joker.

But then again, they could've stopped because they saw the bats laughing at with the Joker. That's the "Killing Joke". Them both going crazy.

why would they turn off their sirens if they witnessed a murder


i thought that other guy was joking
 

marrec

Banned
That's a cop car coming towards them right? The noise just stops because they just witnessed Batman kill the Joker.

But then again, they could've stopped because they saw the bats laughing at with the Joker. That's the "Killing Joke". Them both going crazy.

No, the Killing Joke is the joke he tells on the previous page, which makes the following page make more sense if Batman DOESN'T kill Joker.

The fact that Batman breaks kayfabe is enough.
 
why would they turn off their sirens if they witnessed a murder


i thought that other guy was joking

Because it's batman seen committing the murder. Then again, why would the sirens just stop? Or why would there be no more laughter? Why does EVERYTHING just stop?
 

marrec

Banned
Because it's batman seen committing the murder. Then again, why would the sirens just stop? Or why would there be no more laughter? Why does EVERYTHING just stop?

Because it's meant to be a bookend to the beginning of the book. The 'camera' pulls in so close to the rippling puddle that all other sounds and sights are relegated to non-essential.
 
Because it's meant to be a bookend to the beginning of the book. The 'camera' pulls in so close to the rippling puddle that all other sounds and sights are relegated to non-essential.

So then how could anyone deduct that neither Batman killed the Joker or they both lived from this?
 
Police always turn their lights off when they see a murder.

So then how could anyone deduct that neither Batman killed the Joker or they both lived from this?

Because there is nothing to suggest anything more happened than them standing there laughing.

Maybe Superman showed up and rescued Joker. Maybe Joker hopped in a police car and drove away. Personally, I think Alfred was just dreaming and Bruce was really dead since we never saw which man in the box stopped spinning.
 

Pyccko

Member
So I always figured he killed him, mostly just because that would be more interesting to me. But rereading it recently I noticed a parallel in the art of that last page and some earlier ones. I don't have any pictures, but earlier in the story when Gordon is in the funhouse ride there are panels of the car going through a series of gates/doors that are all ajar, with a solid black line as an opening in very colorfully designed doors, zooming in so the dark gaps get bigger with each door. Joker's purpose in putting Gordon through the ride is to drive him insane and break his spirit, right? The parallel in the art made me see the last panels with the line of color in the darkness disappearing as it zooms in as Bats veering off from the light, succumbing to his insanity and killing Joker.

Well that's how I look at it anyways.
 
I agree with Alan Moore. The Killing Joke isn't very good. Joker quits his day job to try to be a comedian. When that doesn't work out, instead of going back to his day job, he takes on a highly illegal and highly dangerous mob job. He doesn't have just one bad day like he said, he's had to have a whole shit ton of bad days to make such poor judgement. Then his family randomly dying is really contrived, too.

That said, I appreciate the ending more if Batman doesn't kill Joker. Batman already breaks by laughing at Joker's joke. He doesn't need to break again by killing Joker.
 
I agree with Alan Moore. The Killing Joke isn't very good. Joker quits his day job to try to be a comedian. When that doesn't work out, instead of going back to his day job, he takes on a highly illegal and highly dangerous mob job. He doesn't have just one bad day like he said, he's had to have a whole shit ton of bad days to make such poor judgement. Then his family randomly dying is really contrived, too.

That said, I appreciate the ending more if Batman doesn't kill Joker. Batman already breaks by laughing at Joker's joke. He doesn't need to break again by killing Joker.

I agree that it's a pretty mediocre book. But, the kind of lame origin story is redeemed by the fact Joker bails out on it at the end. I think that's the best part of the story. You're told the entire time that this is it, and then at the end he's just like "fuck it, I don't actually know that's how it happened." That's pretty good.
 
I agree that it's a pretty mediocre book. But, the kind of lame origin story is redeemed by the fact Joker bails out on it at the end. I think that's the best part of the story. You're told the entire time that this is it, and then at the end he's just like "fuck it, I don't actually know that's how it happened." That's pretty good.

Yeah, that part is great. It's one of the things that Nolan took from the book.
 

Northeastmonk

Gold Member
He shuts him up. I don't necessarily think he's dead. IMO TKJ makes Batman stand out regardless. I would say it's made Batman stand out in terms of comics period. It's not a bad read at all. I also feel that there are a lot worse arcs and comics like this. Even The Joker stands out because they tell a darker story than your typical comic book. I feel that everyone has taken things out of context over the years. I feel that the Batgirl cover should have been published because you're holding everything back. You're saying that in 2015 super heroes can't have a dark side.

We would have never had super heroes such as Spawn if this idea would have been around years ago. IMO the ending scene to TKJ is left up to your imagination. Lots of things do that. Over the years we have lost countless qualities do to some sorta observational analysis. I personally would like to see more darker tales than outright horror. It gives the reader an alternative to the average everyday hero.
 
Oh, I read it a week ago I thought he did, didn't know the accepted view was that he didn't, then again I only read complete self contained volumes, so I don't fellow any issue to issue continuity.

EDIT:Btw does anyone know if there is a good performance of the song in that story?
 

marrec

Banned
I agree with Alan Moore. The Killing Joke isn't very good. Joker quits his day job to try to be a comedian. When that doesn't work out, instead of going back to his day job, he takes on a highly illegal and highly dangerous mob job. He doesn't have just one bad day like he said, he's had to have a whole shit ton of bad days to make such poor judgement. Then his family randomly dying is really contrived, too.

That said, I appreciate the ending more if Batman doesn't kill Joker. Batman already breaks by laughing at Joker's joke. He doesn't need to break again by killing Joker.

People always talk about "what if he killed the joker" but they never mention how crazy it is that Batman break kayfabe because of a stupid joke. Even though Batman doesn't kill indiscriminately like Joker they are only separated by a tenuous thread that in that moment is gone.

Batman doesn't have to kill the joker at that point for him to have won cause Bruce gave up on him there.
 

Nuke Soda

Member
I agree with Alan Moore. The Killing Joke isn't very good. Joker quits his day job to try to be a comedian. When that doesn't work out, instead of going back to his day job, he takes on a highly illegal and highly dangerous mob job. He doesn't have just one bad day like he said, he's had to have a whole shit ton of bad days to make such poor judgement. Then his family randomly dying is really contrived, too.

That said, I appreciate the ending more if Batman doesn't kill Joker. Batman already breaks by laughing at Joker's joke. He doesn't need to break again by killing Joker.
I've read The Killing Joke a couple of times and never thought about how implausible Joker's origin is. Learn something new everyday lol.
 
I'm fairly convinced Moore snuck this in there for people to interpret it that way, given how very exact he wants each panel to be. He rarely spent time on arbitrary storytelling, so was he really just going for a moody outtro? Doubtful.

But it wasn't intended to be in continuity. So arguments from that perspective don't count if we're talking about TKJ and Moore's intention.

Moore also wrote the last Superman story in this era. Watchmen was the last superhero story (written to be, anyway). This is kind of what he was doing at the time.

What Superman story was it?
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
No. Jim Gordon made it very clear to batman to not go over the edge and to bring him in by the book. The whole point was to show that one bad day can turn you insane, but Jim didn't go insane, he proved the joker wrong.

Yeah… but… so?

It's a pretty shitty book if that is "the whole point"

There is absolutely nothing interesting in the reading that Batman wouldn't do it because that would violate his code and prove the Joker right - so I'm not interested in that interpretation even if it's probably correct.

I mean, that's the basic moral of like 60% of super hero stories.

The idea that Batman is closer to the Joker than Jim… That at least make Jim Gordon a little more special.
 

Mistouze

user-friendly man-cashews
Alan Moore had Batman kill the Joker as much as DC would let him.

Also this :
Some have pointed out that the best evidence against Morrison’s point is Barbara Gordon. During The Killing Joke‘s events, The Joker shoots her through the spine, paralyzing her below the waist – and setting the foundation for her transformation into the Oracle. The fact that the Oracle repeatedly shows up in subsequent Batman features and that The Joker continues to be a thorn in Batman’s side solidifies The Killing Joke‘s events as canon. Then again, Alan Moore himself has indicated that he never intended for the book to be in continuity – that was DC’s idea.
Is pretty much bullshit seeing how DC didn't have any plans for Barbara Gordon after the Killing Joke. It's only thanks to Kim Yale and John Ostrander that Barbara Gordon came back as Oracle in the first run of the Suicide Squad story.
 
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