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[Rootbeer]

Stike is on. All news outlets are officially reporting it now. Gonna be a fun, fun day. Hopefully just one day? Who can say.

 

[SlipperySlope]

Except under your small government fantasy scenarios, there'd be no public transit.

Then what?

If the subsidies were dropped and regulations dropped, we could conceivably have private mass transit. Our transportation system is fucked. I'd like to see most of it turn private - including freeways.

Why? The private sector operates on profit. If it sees profit from adding a line here and there, it'll find a way to do it. An example - The route from Orange County to Riverside. Currently it's just the 91 to the 15, or taking the treacherous pass through the Ortegas. I mean treacherous literally, it's one of the deadliest highways in California with over 130 turns.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/11/news/mn-32926

This very common path has only TWO routes. It's inconceivable, really. As a result the 91 is a fucking nightmare, the 15 is probably even worse now, and the Ortega Highway is a death trap.

This is what public transit has gotten us. A disaster in every sense of the word. I dare ANYONE to travel the 91 to the 15 to Elsinore from Orange County on a holiday (or the other direction). You'll be contemplating suicide.

Anyway, my point is, that private transit would see a profit here if the public systems actually competed without a subsidy. And seeing that profit potential, they'd open up more lines between Orange County and Riverside, thus easing traffic conditions.

But I'm getting off topic slightly. As for BART, it should be non-unionized. It should be illegal for transit workers to strike, and if they walk off the job, they should be immediately fired.

Edit - Bart should also turn private. As should all other freeways/transit systems in the bay area.

 

[JesseEwiak]

But I'm getting off topic slightly. As for BART, it should be non-unionized. It should be illegal for transit workers to strike, and if they walk off the job, they should be immediately fired.

So, you want to lower their pay, remove their benefits, and make it illegal for them to bargain with their employer. Yeah, that'll work out wonderfully.

I'm not even getting into your dream world where I have to pay a toll every five blocks because the 'owner' of the road went from TollCo to RoadCorp.

 

[AstroLad]

Even given everything you say as fact, you are comparing the reality of public transportation with the fantasy of ideal capitalism. Why not be fair and compare reality to the crony capitalism that would prevail? I mean don't get me wrong privatized jails have worked out amazingly so clearly crony capitalism should always get the benefit of the doubt having proven itself so well.

 

[SlipperySlope]

So, you want to lower their pay, remove their benefits, and make it illegal for them to bargain with their employer. Yeah, that'll work out wonderfully.

I'm not even getting into your dream world where I have to pay a toll every five blocks because the 'owner' of the road went from TollCo to RoadCorp.

I want them to compete like any other non-unionized worker does. And them holding the whole city hostage is Bond villain-esque in their greed.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I want them to compete like any other non-unionized worker does. And them holding the whole city hostage is Bond villain-esque in their greed.

"Competition among the workforce" is the greatest lie that conservatives and libertarians have sold American's in the past thirty years. I hate to break this to you, but in the vast majority of jobs, there's no real good way to determine who is actually better at a job, despite what business school crap is being sold to you.

If you're against this, I hope you're also as passionate against owners of businesses holding up cities for tax abatements, straight up cash payments for moving jobs to other states, and all the other shady shit corporations do to get an advantage in the marketplace.

 

[t26]

I want them to compete like any other non-unionized worker does. And them holding the whole city hostage is Bond villain-esque in their greed.

So why can't other workers be able to complete like a unionized worker?

 

[SlipperySlope]

Even given everything you say as fact, you are comparing the reality of public transportation with the fantasy of ideal capitalism. Why not be fair and compare reality to the crony capitalism that would prevail? I mean don't get me wrong privatized jails have worked out amazingly so clearly crony capitalism should always get the benefit of the doubt having proven itself so well.

Private companies that work for the government are frequently just as bad as the government. Reason being their profit motive. Their profit motive isn't to please customers so they can sell more goods, their profit motive is to please the government so they can jail more people / get a lucrative government contract, etc. Which is why I want the government to be hands off in most industries, unless it has to.

We're getting really off topic here and for that I am sorry, but focusing more on prisons, I think the government has three main functions and it should ONLY do those three functions, and no other (with a few exceptions). It's the dead of night here, and my memory is getting a little foggy. Let's see.... one of them is public safety and defense. This includes prisons. So I think prisons should be public.

Another should be imposing the rule of law.

I think the third was general eduction, but I'd like that to be through the voucher system.

You can make cases for other things on a case-by-case basis, but for generalizations, I think those three things should do. Although something deep inside makes me thing I missed something. Oh well, it's late. Sorry for getting off topic. I'll go to bed now, will not enter this thread until tomorrow at the earliest.

Have a good night everyone, and good luck to those in the Bay Area. I was there a few months back, it's a beautiful place.

Edit - Another case where it is useful is general city planning. As I said, cases can be made on a case-by-case basis and I know I'm not thinking of everything.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

If the subsidies were dropped and regulations dropped, we could conceivably have private mass transit. Our transportation system is fucked. I'd like to see most of it turn private - including freeways.

Why? The private sector operates on profit. If it sees profit from adding a line here and there, it'll find a way to do it. An example - The route from Orange County to Riverside. Currently it's just the 91 to the 15, or taking the treacherous pass through the Ortegas. I mean treacherous literally, it's one of the deadliest highways in California with over 130 turns.

Private highways and private mass transit would be nightmare in this country.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Private highways and private mass transit would be nightmare in this country.

He's fallen into the "if it's efficient and will cost less, than it's better" trap of libertarianism. Even accepting the fact that a private road or mass transit system would be more efficient, the question is, is for example, a 10% efficiency gain worth the loss of convenience for the population?

After all, let's say there's 10 companies who each own sections of roads and everybody has to install an EZ-Pass type of thing in order to drive the roads unless you want to pay tolls to go through various neighborhoods.

Now, what if Company X decided, "we're going to stop taking the EZ Pass system and instead, you not only have to use our pass system, but we're jacking up rates by 20%. In a market, yes, they would be hurt, possibly. But, you can't have six companies owning the same stretch of road. If Company X owns the Golden Gate Bridge, they have a far more bigger hold over the population than BART workers do. Why do I know this would likely eventually happen? Because it happens already with things like stadiums and proposals for companies to move jobs.

Basically, markets work pretty well when there's no massive downside if the company in charge are giant assholes and it's convenient for their to be multiple suppliers. Nike charges too much for shoes? Well, there's plenty of other shoe companies. Apple charges more than the average for computers? Yeah, but they're high quality and there's a market for them.

However, in things that we all _need_ access too, whether it's transportation, health care, or social welfare, choice is a bad thing. We don't need six buses going from Point A to Point B. We need one well funded bus that isn't going to get cut if the profit margin drops by 10%. We don't need 12 options for our Social Security. We need our Social Security checks to come when we're 65. That's the whole point of 'the commons.'

 

[Open Source]

He's fallen into the "if it's efficient and will cost less, than it's better" trap of libertarianism. Even accepting the fact that a private road or mass transit system would be more efficient, the question is, is for example, a 10% efficiency gain worth the loss of convenience for the population?

After all, let's say there's 10 companies who each own sections of roads and everybody has to install an EZ-Pass type of thing in order to drive the roads unless you want to pay tolls to go through various neighborhoods.

Now, what if Company X decided, "we're going to stop taking the EZ Pass system and instead, you not only have to use our pass system, but we're jacking up rates by 20%. In a market, yes, they would be hurt, possibly. But, you can't have six companies owning the same stretch of road. If Company X owns the Golden Gate Bridge, they have a far more bigger hold over the population than BART workers do. Why do I know this would likely eventually happen? Because it happens already with things like stadiums and proposals for companies to move jobs.

Basically, markets work pretty well when there's no massive downside if the company in charge are giant assholes and it's convenient for their to be multiple suppliers. Nike charges too much for shoes? Well, there's plenty of other shoe companies. Apple charges more than the average for computers? Yeah, but they're high quality and there's a market for them.

However, in things that we all _need_ access too, whether it's transportation, health care, or social welfare, choice is a bad thing. We don't need six buses going from Point A to Point B. We need one well funded bus that isn't going to get cut if the profit margin drops by 10%. We don't need 12 options for our Social Security. We need our Social Security checks to come when we're 65. That's the whole point of 'the commons.'

Agree on roads (for the most part) but social security is another animal. Roads don't really allow for competition for geographical reasons; the barrier to entry is too high; and the land for the roads would be publicly owned anyway, meaning that it would be a corruption-ridden public-private clusterfuck.

That said, allowing public unions to strike is a mistake. It's not in the public interest for the public to be harmed as part of the government's negotiation process with its employees. Work at BART, negotiate your compensation and other aspects of your job, and if they aren't acceptable, then leave. The point of government services is not to provide jobs that are acceptable to you; it's to provide services to the public.

Even FDR, a union champion, was against public unions.

 

[Rootbeer]

allowing public unions to strike is a mistake. It's not in the public interest for the public to be harmed as part of the government's negotiation process with its employees. Work at BART, negotiate your compensation and other aspects of your job, and if they aren't acceptable, then leave. The point of government services is not to provide jobs that are acceptable to you; it's to provide services to the public.

Even FDR, a union champion, was against public unions.

If you work at a manufacturing plant, and your union wants to strike, it doesn't have an immediate impact on other people being able to go about their lives such as getting to/from work, school or medial appointments. In the case of a BART strike, they are messing with 400,000+ people's lives to varying degrees. It is not acceptable to me.

In my case, I should be able to take the bus. But if AC Transit also strikes (their own negotiations will end on Tuesday) it is a fell blow. Yeah there are things like rideshare, but I can't imagine there's enough people willing to donate their time and space to help all those who will be displaced. A good number of fine people will but it won't be nearly enough.

 

[FyreWulff]

If the subsidies were dropped and regulations dropped, we could conceivably have private mass transit. Our transportation system is fucked. I'd like to see most of it turn private - including freeways.

It's a public good. A lot of cities wouldn't have mass transit if it was private. Our city recovers only 11% of it's operating costs through the farebox. If we didn't pay for it out of property taxes, it'd probably cost 10$ to go six miles in a bus. Kind of defeats the point of mass transit.

Also, private freeways? Uh, no toll booths, kthnx. Rather pay the tax on gas to not have to stop over and over again. There's nothing stopping a private company from building a highway, they can just buy up land and put a road on it.

 

[Gallbaro]

It's a public good. A lot of cities wouldn't have mass transit if it was private. Our city recovers only 11% of it's operating costs through the farebox. If we didn't pay for it out of property taxes, it'd probably cost 10$ to go six miles in a bus. Kind of defeats the point of mass transit.

Also, private freeways? Uh, no toll booths, kthnx. Rather pay the tax on gas to not have to stop over and over again. There's nothing stopping a private company from building a highway, they can just buy up land and put a road on it.

The vast majority of cities in the US had private mass transit.

Transportation does not really have to be a monopoly, as long as you have modal competition. The federal craziness over highways likely produced short term economic gains but completely distorted the economics of metro areas, killed tax paying transportation companies and cause sever long term and destructive social impacts.

Anyone who points for government control of transportation in the USA as an example of government monopoly done right, has not stepped back for a bigger view.

 

[inm8num2]

Good lord the bay is going to be a fucking mess.

 

[Easy_G]

Not getting into this union debate, but how is everyone else getting around today? Luckily my girlfriend and I have one car, but we do work about 40 miles apart from each other. So we are carpooling with lots if wasted time and gas.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Not getting into this union debate, but how is everyone else getting around today? Luckily my girlfriend and I have one car, but we do work about 40 miles apart from each other. So we are carpooling with lots if wasted time and gas.

Luckily my company allows for us to work from home-pretty much no questions asked in a scenario like this. I can't imagine trying to get to my old job in the Mission today.

 

[Cornballer]

I got into work about a half hour ago. Traffic in SF proper isn't too bad, it's just all of the routes into the city that are screwed. Bay Bridge is a mess headed westbound but eastbound isn't bad at all.

Glad to hear that AC Transit didn't opt for the simultaneous strike this morning because that would have significantly compounded the problem.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

I got into work about a half hour ago. Traffic in SF proper isn't too bad, it's just all of the routes into the city that are screwed. Bay Bridge is a mess headed westbound but eastbound isn't bad at all.

Glad to hear that AC Transit didn't opt for the simultaneous strike this morning because that would have significantly compounded the problem.

Yeah I would imagine most people at least are taking the transbay buses on AC Transit or the ferry from Alameda...

Can't imagine how long this will go on for-especially since public opinion isn't exactly on the workers side.

 

[painey]

glad this is getting over with before I head there in 3 weeks. Feel sorry for the commuters though.

 

[RuGalz]

Looking at the traffic map, freaking ridiculous. I'm glad I don't have to deal with it but I feel sorry for thousands of people out there. There are many thousands more cars out there today meaning accident rate is going to be higher too. Stay safe people.

 

[ironichaos]

Looks like I'll be working from home this week. I feel sorry for the people who can't.

 

[t26]

I just hope they can resolve this ASAP.

 

[Wads]

Looks like I'll be working from home this week. I feel sorry for the people who can't.

Same, this is really quite ridiculous. I'm not anti-union by any means, but it's asinine that these people are willing to impact 400,000+ riders. All I have to say is this shit better be over after today.

 

[mcfrank]

Going to be there on vacation Wed - Sun. This could put a kink in most of my plans

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Closed turnstiles at the Powell BART Station in downtown San Francisco early on Monday, July 1, 2013, the first day of the first BART strike since 1997. Roughly 400,000 thousand riders were stranded by the strike. Photo: Will Kane, The Chronicle

 

[Toki767]

400,000 thousand

My friends had to drive across the bridge to get to work. Gonna be hell for them driving home.

 

[inm8num2]

Too bad the bike lane on the Bay Bridge doesn't open for another couple months. That would have been a great alternative for some people.

 

[Cornballer]

Too bad the bike lane on the Bay Bridge doesn't open for another couple months. That would have been a great alternative for some people.

That'll get you to Treasure Island from the East Bay, but there's currently no route from TI to SF on the West span of the Bay Bridge.

 

[inm8num2]

That'll get you to Treasure Island from the East Bay, but there's currently no route from TI to SF on the West span of the Bay Bridge.

I thought they were planning to extend the route all the way to SF? Hmm that's a bummer.

 

[boiled goose]

this is going to be terrible.
Is the transbay bus going to be running?

 

[EleventhDoctor]

this is going to be terrible.
Is the transbay bus going to be running?

AC Transit has not announced a strike as of today-so Transbay buses ARE running-but they'll be caught in that same Bay Bridge traffic. I'm sure the buses themselves are also more packed than usual too so keep that in mind.

Here's a photo from first thing this morning:

 

[Jayayess1190]

I feel for all those in the Bay Area. Without BART, a hot mess. San Fran is my favorite city in California, and if I ever moved there I would get a job in transportation.

 

[Auron_Kale]

So I commuted via MUNI from my uncle's place in Daly City (took the 14L) and it wasn't too bad actually - just long.

Got on roughly 6:45 or so and reached Mission & Fremont at 7:40 this morning. Then it was a nice 10 minute walk to my office (though I took a detour to Walgreens for some water). Still arrived before I was supposed to start my scheduled shift, which was at 8:30.

Tomorrow should be interesting as I'll be driving from Daly City to my office, since I'm taking a half day but I'm hoping traffic going back to the East Bay around lunchtime should be on the light side.

 

[Major Williams]

So I commuted via MUNI from my uncle's place in Daly City (took the 14L) and it wasn't too bad actually - just long.

Got on roughly 6:45 or so and reached Mission & Fremont at 7:40 this morning. Then it was a nice 10 minute walk to my office (though I took a detour to Walgreens for some water). Still arrived before I was supposed to start my scheduled shift, which was at 8:30.

Tomorrow should be interesting as I'll be driving from Daly City to my office, since I'm taking a half day but I'm hoping traffic going back to the East Bay around lunchtime should be on the light side.

I just moved to San Jose last week, and start my job next week in Mountain View. Do you think the strike will a) still be in effect and b) affect my commute?

 

[dakkumauji]

I just moved to San Jose last week, and start my job next week in Mountain View. Do you think the strike will a) still be in effect and b) affect my commute?

Wouldn't going from San Jose to Mountain View involve taking Caltrain instead of BART?

You should be fine if that's the case.

 

[Cornballer]

I just moved to San Jose last week, and start my job next week in Mountain View. Do you think the strike will a) still be in effect and b) affect my commute?

a) Nope b) Nope

 

[Major Williams]

Wouldn't going from San Jose to Mountain View involve taking Caltrain instead of BART?

You should be fine if that's the case.

I am not from the Bay Area at all, so I am unfamiliar with the different transit system nomenclature for different regions. I love the area so far though, but my wife and I went to Ikea in Palo Alto yesterday. Wanna talk about claustrophobia? There's people EVERYWHERE.

a) Nope b) Nope

Thanks!

 

[t26]

BART only reach Fremont so it won't have much of an impact for you.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

I am not from the Bay Area at all, so I am unfamiliar with the different transit system nomenclature for different regions. I love the area so far though, but my wife and I went to Ikea in Palo Alto yesterday. Wanna talk about claustrophobia? There's people EVERYWHERE.


Thanks!

No offense-but you're part of the problem.
(So I am I-moved here 10 years ago) But the Bay Area is severly overcrowded. There's no more room for anyone here-but more and more people want to move here and we just keep piling up.

 

[Linkhero1]

400,000 thousand

My friends had to drive across the bridge to get to work. Gonna be hell for them driving home.

Sucks because it was already hell prior to this strike.

 

[Major Williams]

No offense-but you're part of the problem.
(So I am I-moved here 10 years ago) But the Bay Area is severly overcrowded. There's no more room for anyone here-but more and more people want to move here and we just keep piling up.

Haha none taken - that's a dilemma my wife and I had. I got a great job offer at a hospital in the area (they contacted me), and offered to pay moving expenses, etc. I saw the weather during the summer time and asked where do I sign.

Now the rent on the other hand... holy shitballs... $2800/month for a decent/new/safe pad?

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Haha none taken - that's a dilemma my wife and I had. I got a great job offer at a hospital in the area (they contacted me), and offered to pay moving expenses, etc. I saw the weather during the summer time and asked where do I sign.

Now the rent on the other hand... holy shitballs... $2800/month for a decent/new/safe pad?

That's more than my mortgage, dude-I live in Castro Valley and have a 4 bedroom 3 bath townhouse with a garage in a great neighborhood. Could just be where you setup shop. Bay Area prices are insane-absolutely insane, but again it's because there's such a demand to live here and not enough supply. What made you choose San Jose? My wife and I had to eventually give up on where we really wanted to live and buy a house where we could actually afford to live.

 

[Cornballer]

- SFGate: BART strike has commuters scrambling
- SJ Merc: Commute chaos rages on as strike begins with no end in sight

Strike news from the Merc:

BART and its unions saw their four-year contract expire overnight after three months of failed negotiations and workers immediately began hitting the picket lines. A strike will continue indefinitely until BART management and the two unions representing 2,300 blue-collar workers reach a deal. On Monday morning, neither side had any immediate plans to return to the bargaining table as they remained at odds over wage increases and medical and pension benefits.

"We have not heard from the mediator yet, so unfortunately no talks are scheduled. We're hoping that changes soon," BART spokesman Rick Rice said Monday morning. "We do feel this is unfair to our riders and hope to get it resolved quickly."

Carpool lanes will remain open throughout the day and motorists should be prepared for heavy traffic and hot weather. The CHP advised filling up gas tanks and bringing along plenty of water in case of long waits in traffic. Most of the heavy traffic Monday morning was centered in the East Bay leading to the Bay
Bridge.

Most of the additional reporting is just detailing how bad the traffic is this morning.

 

[kutthoat5150]

wow I'm going to sf this weekend, hopefully it's over by then that traffic looks insane

 

[PseudoKirby]

AC Transit has not announced a strike as of today-so Transbay buses ARE running-but they'll be caught in that same Bay Bridge traffic. I'm sure the buses themselves are also more packed than usual too so keep that in mind.

Here's a photo from first thing this morning:

Sorry but thats what the bridge usually looks like in morning traffic lol.

If you include benefits, a lot of people are 5%ers. A $60,000 base salary shouldn't be considered insane. As far as overtime goes, either hire more people or pay people overtime, that's the choice.

For the position I think $60k a year base salary is pretty incredible... its cash handling right?

 

[Major Williams]

That's more than my mortgage, dude-I live in Castro Valley and have a 4 bedroom 3 bath townhouse with a garage in a great neighborhood. Could just be where you setup shop. Bay Area prices are insane-absolutely insane, but again it's because there's such a demand to live here and not enough supply. What made you choose San Jose? My wife and I had to eventually give up on where we really wanted to live and buy a house where we could actually afford to live.

Yeah, I know mortgages are a bit more affordable, but my wife wanted fancy. So we got the fancy condo near downtown with shops all within walking distance and 1600 sq ft for 2 bedrooms. Place is huge and nice with archways and stuff, but still... annoying.

Stuff like the commute still scares me though.

 

[dakkumauji]

Sorry but thats what the bridge usually looks like in morning traffic lol.

Haha, yeah.

But from what I saw on the news, it looks like just getting to the bridge took the longest.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Yeah, I know mortgages are a bit more affordable, but my wife wanted fancy. So we got the fancy condo near downtown with shops all within walking distance and 1600 sq ft for 2 bedrooms. Place is huge and nice with archways and stuff, but still... annoying.

Stuff like the commute still scares me though.

Oh please...yeah. You're going to pay out the nose for that.

For the position I think $60k a year base salary is pretty incredible... its cash handling right?

Hey-they occasionally have to see crazy people.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Yeah, I know mortgages are a bit more affordable, but my wife wanted fancy. So we got the fancy condo near downtown with shops all within walking distance and 1600 sq ft for 2 bedrooms. Place is huge and nice with archways and stuff, but still... annoying.

Stuff like the commute still scares me though.

Honestly, SJ to Mountain View isn't really much of a commute as commutes go, you'll be fine.