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[Arjen]

Damn, that's a shame. You were doing such a great job of articulating the differences between transgender and transable and why those differences should matter.

Damn you're on a roll today

 

[SmokyDave]

like I said in my post I have no real idea on this particular issue and am trying to avoid snap judgements but the X versus Y argument is lazy and reminds me of the South Park argument, also seen in his post where he used the term Transracial. Surprised he did not go full Cartman and say what about someone who wants to become a dolphin.

Transracial is already a thing, that dude didn't invent the term.

Besides I feel gender, but my body presents as gender is a far cry from I don't feel like this limb is mine I need to get rid of it.

Why? On the surface, they both look like a mismatch between body and brain.

Beyond the false equivalency there is also the fact that gender reassignment takes no toll on the public at large, whereas people disabling themselves on purpouse does.

It only takes a toll if they claim some sort of disability benefit. Thing is though, you can't deny those benefits just because the disability was self-inflicted. Otherwise what do you do about people that permanently injure themselves falling down stairs or crash their car whilst drunk?

Again I am not ready to dismiss these people, but using them as an argument against transgender people is pretty shortsighted.

There shouldn't be an argument against transgender people. Much of the progress in acceptance of transgender people might help the transabled gain acceptance though.

The way he said the comment, it sort of seemed like he thought people were just coming up with random things to have and then social media was celebrating it so it's "whatever" at this point.

Maybe I took it the wrong way?

I thought he was just saying 'fuck it, let 'em live'.

 

[elrechazado]

like I said in my post I have no real idea on this particular issue and am trying to avoid snap judgements but the X versus Y argument is lazy and reminds me of the South Park argument, also seen in his post where he used the term Transracial. Surprised he did not go full Cartman and say what about someone who wants to become a dolphin.

Besides I feel gender, but my body presents as gender is a far cry from I don't feel like this limb is mine I need to get rid of it.

Beyond the false equivalency there is also the fact that gender reassignment takes no toll on the public at large, whereas people disabling themselves on purpouse does.

Again I am not ready to dismiss these people, but using them as an argument against transgender people is pretty shortsighted.

You're not ready to dismiss them, right after you just finished dismissing them? You have done nothing to posit a false equivalence beyond saying there is one. Nothing societally wrong with either transgender or transable, but as we can see from this thread, some arbitrarily decided one is ok and one is weird because reasons. Sounds like a familiar argument against transgender or homosexuality or any number of individual determinations that we increasingly as a society rightfully aren't making for others based on previous norms. Some consistent tolerance would be nice. "That's weird and wrong" or picking and choosing acceptance of individual rights to self determination are pretty gross.

 

[Amir0x]

Stop, I'm getting triggered. You don't want to see me when I'm triggered.

You're really mocking people who legitimately trigger when they read things that remind them of traumatizing events?

 

[Aurongel]

I want to label it as a mental illness that should be treated but then I remember homosexuality was once viewed the same way.

 

[Wrestlemania]

don't expect me to pay for, or support your applying for disability

real victims need that money, it's already stretched thin (and butchered) as is

this is disgraceful shit, these people need psychological help

I assume you are okay with paying for that "psychological help", right?

 

[QuickSilverD]

My immediate reaction to this to think "bunch of morons", but even if we accept that these people do suffer from some sort of body dismorfia there are still various ethical concerns that make their whole "condition" hard to accept and tolerate, obviously for most doctors it would violate the principle of "make no harm" and say someone become disable by choice, are they then entitled to receive disability benefices? I want to say no, they do not, but wouldn't they? if someone ends up cutting both their arms they are certainly not going to be working in most professions anymore, so what are we to do?

 

[Tesseract]

I assume you are okay with paying for that "psychological help", right?

of course. you trying to gotcha me with that?

*edit* i see your point, apologies

 

[Joni]

The comparison with transgender people is weird because we as a society already force transgender people into a long psychological process before they can even do what these people do.

 

[Caronte]

Eh, no. They are just insane.

 

[Necromanti]

You're really mocking people who legitimately trigger when they read things that remind them of traumatizing events?

I'm waiting to hear the words "toxic" and "problematic" trotted out as well, myself, since they always seem to come in a set. Every topic needs to be turned into a "pro-SJW" and "anti-SJW" battleground these days.

 

[jakonovski]

The big thing societally is that by removing or injuring major parts of their body people become dependent on others. Until end of work and robot caretakers, deliberate disability is not going to be viable except for the independently wealthy.

People can cry that it's disgusting all day long, but that is really just them trying to get attention.

 

[Novocaine]

You really honestly think this is the same thing?

In the sense that both parties don't feel like they belong in their body the way it is and feel the need to correct it sure, it's the same thing.

As long as they aren't hurting anybody else I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm waiting to hear the words "toxic" and "problematic" trotted out as well, myself, since they always seem to come in a set.

probably something like everybody is just so sensitive and politically correct and are ruining planet Earth or some shit

 

[Razmos]

Stop, I'm getting triggered. You don't want to see me when I'm triggered.

Ah, so you are just here to mock people, ok. No point trying to converse with you then.

 

[hendersonhank]

You consider a surgical procedure as "mutilating"? Someone chopping their own arm off with a saw is mutilation, a trans person having a sex change is undergoing surgery.

What is YOUR definition of mutilation? since you don't seem to understand the difference between the two.

So once these people find doctors to do their operations, does that mean we can make the comparison?

Here's Dictionary.com's definition: to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts.

That seems 100% applicable to removing penises, testicles, breasts, etc to me. Regardless of whether the person holding the knife has a medical degree on the wall.

Perhaps you can post a definition that agrees with what you said, so I can see if I'm mistaken in thinking the word "mutilation" quite obviously applies to cutting off major body parts.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

That's crazy

 

[DiipuSurotu]

In the sense that both parties don't feel like they belong in their body the way it is and feel the need to correct it sure, it's the same thing.

As long as they aren't hurting anybody else I don't see what the big deal is.

Anorexic people don't hurt anybody else.

 

[Branduil]

In the sense that both parties don't feel like they belong in their body the way it is and feel the need to correct it sure, it's the same thing.

As long as they aren't hurting anybody else I don't see what the big deal is.

Making yourself disabled places a burden on others and society. So they are hurting other people. They could even end up taking money and time from people who are disabled by accident, which, if nothing else, is what makes this unacceptable.

 

[Irminsul]

But there *is* a "cure" (and I'm not even sure that's the right word to use), from their perspective - amputation of the respective limb or body part. Also, even if that wasn't the case, I still reject your argument. Saying something is a mental illness only if there is no cure means that to be consistent you must also argue that having severe gender dysphoria was a mental illness only up until medical science had progressed to the point that gender reassignment surgery was possible, but not a mental illness after because it is now capable of being "cured". That seems a bizarre conclusion, not to mention a biased one: the use of the word "cure" from the start predisposes you towards thinking of it as a medical condition.

No, that's not what I meant by what a mental illness is, which is why I actually brought up homosexuality and paedophilia. Both are sexual preferences diverging from the norm. The difference is, there's no harm to society and/or other people if gay/lesbian people live out their differing sexual preferences, whereas there very much is with paedophilia. The difference isn't whether there's a cure, the difference is whether it's harmful to society, other people or one self.

Of course, there are many nuances to it. Firstly, "disabled by choice" sounds very different to what, e.g., Amir0x cited here. Okay, you "choose" to lose a limb instead of having it removed by chance / an accident, but the examples sound more like something you have to do to be able to live. That's completely different to simply "preferring" having a limb less or something to that effect.

Also, I'm usually very much in favour of people being the masters over their own body. I'm just having a hard time simply being okay with people wanting to mutilate themselves; very few people may have a need to do this, but if that's just okay then why even try to, yes, cure people who try to harm themselves in much less severe ways (e.g., cutting themselves)? Or saying being obese is bad for you? Or trying to cure anorexia? Etc. pp.

 

[Dr. Buni]

That is... quite something. How interesting the human mind can be. I don't see the issue with it (or why people are bringing up stuff like pedophilia in this thread).

 

[Matty77]

You're not ready to dismiss them, right after you just finished dismissing them? You have done nothing to posit a false equivalence beyond saying there is one. Nothing societally wrong with either transgender or transable, but as we can see from this thread, some arbitrarily decided one is ok and one is weird because reasons. Sounds like a familiar argument against transgender or homosexuality or any number of individual determinations that we increasingly as a society rightfully aren't making for others based on previous norms. Some consistent tolerance would be nice. "That's weird and wrong" or picking and choosing acceptance of individual rights to self determination are pretty gross.

I never said anyone was weird or wrong, though I will admit as a disabled person disabling yourself does not sit right me. Beyond that in this thread I have said I do not know what's going on in their head, and I have no medical training so I will reserve judgment. That's pretty much the definition of tolerance.

Everything else was off of one person saying something that looked designed to insult a famous transgender person in the news and I said "really, you think they are the same thing" and I have been dogpiled on since.

And no I don't think they are the same, not different in matter of revelance maybe, and maybe they should be treated the same by the public, but I do not think they are the same thing at all surgically.

 

[fertygo]

As disabled person, I just wish someone not gonna tell me to respect this as the same as transgender issue, I don't know how much that gonna piss me off if that happen.

 

[Razmos]

So once these people find doctors to do their operations, does that mean we can make the comparison?

Here's Dictionary.com's definition: to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts.

That seems 100% applicable to removing penises, testicles, breasts, etc to me. Regardless of whether the person holding the knife has a medical degree on the wall.

Perhaps you can post a definition that agrees with what you said, so I can see if I'm mistaken in thinking the word "mutilation" quite obviously applies to cutting off major body parts.

Because by that very definition you are saying that trans people who go through a sex change are "injuring, disfiguring or making imperfect". Mutilation is a word used in a negative context. You say that a murderer has mutilated their victim, or a dog mutilated someone in an attack.

You DON'T say that someone going through a medical procedure to correct themselves is "Mutilating" themselves, that's fucked up.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

 

[Tesseract]

wiki helps a bit here

One theory states that the cause of BIID is a neurological failing of the brain's inner body mapping function (located in the right parietal lobe). According to this theory, the brain mapping does not incorporate the affected limb in its understanding of the body's physical form.

biid is usually treated as a psychiatric disorder, which is good

we really need to wrap up our everyday knowledge of the brain this century

 

[hobblygobbly]

Okay. So why is all the "transable" all associated with physical, and not mental disabilities?

Why are there no transable people who are mentally disabled by choice?

How is being disabled an "identity"? Feeling you were born to walk when you shouldn't be able to? Like I said in another post, I think it's a symptom of a larger issue. I think addressing yourself by making yourself disabled creates a sense of association with people of a similar nature, being able to relate and possibly attention from others. I think it's creating a faux situation with a misconceived idea of being disabled as an identity that others may share with you. People disabled by birth or through an accident see no positive side of complacency in being disabled or it being "how it should be" or "right".

I'm really curious as to why it's only physical disability and not mental. Hmm.

I wonder if it's symptom of Munchausen syndrome. this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchausen_syndrome

Munchausen syndrome is a psychiatric factitious disorder wherein those affected feign disease, illness, or psychological trauma to draw attention, sympathy, or reassurance to themselves. It is also sometimes known as hospital addiction syndrome, thick chart syndrome, or hospital hopper syndrome. True Munchausen syndrome fits within the subclass of factitious disorder with predominantly physical signs and symptoms, but they also have a history of recurrent hospitalization, travelling, and dramatic, untrue, and extremely improbable tales of their past experiences.[1] There is discussion to reclassify them as somatoform disorders in the DSM-5 as it is unclear whether or not people are conscious of drawing attention to themselves.[2] In the current iteration, the term "somatoform disorder" (as used in the DSM-IV-TR and other literature) is no longer in use; that particular section of the DSM-5 has been renamed "Somatic Symptom and Related Disorders". Officially, Munchausen syndrome has been renamed "Factitious Disorder", with specificity either as "Imposed on Self" or "Imposed on Another" (formerly "by Proxy").

Munchausen syndrome is related to Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSbP/MSP), which refers to the abuse of another person, typically a child, in order to seek attention or sympathy for the abuser. It is an obsessive want to create symptoms for the victim in order to obtain repeated medication or even operations.

I think it's something that needs more research/studies before anyone can really say something concrete. At this point I don't think it's right to say it's like transgender.

Also, if you can walk like that person that has walking legs, it's not right that they should be able to use disabled facilities/privileges if you have working legs and can use them immediately like that person can. That is fucked up.

 

[TheExecutive]

As long as they don't take aide, parking passes, etc... from people who actually didn't have a choice about their disability then I don't give two fucks what they do with their bodies.

 

[Javaman]

I'd imagine there's at least three groups of people who do this, ones who truely feel they have an extra body attachment, ones that do it for the insurance money, and people that do it for the attention/pity.

 

[jakonovski]

Also, I'm usually very much in favour of people being the masters over their own body. I'm just having a hard time simply being okay with people wanting to mutilate themselves; very few people may have a need to do this, but if that's just okay then why even try to, yes, cure people who try to harm themselves in much less severe ways (e.g., cutting themselves)? Or saying being obese is bad for you? Or trying to cure anorexia? Etc. pp.

People's bodies have all sorts of things going on that cause them problems. It's not a question of being okay, just that humanity is what it is. On an individual level we would all be super freaked out by someone close to us deciding to lop off their own arm.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Yep this is a mental illness

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I imagine the number of people who want to self-amputate is so infinitely small that it's pointless to even discuss their impact on social benefits. Otherwise I foresee a certain group of people saying we should cut back on disability benefits because they feel some 'abuse' it.

 

[Yrael]

I think I can understand it from a neurological perspective. Our brains provide us with a map of our body and its boundaries. A person with a phantom limb is someone who has lost a limb yet still receives signals from their brain telling them that the limb is still there. I guess that BIID leading someone to want an amputation is essentially the reverse - having a constant signal that their body ends at a particular point (like, say, their right hip). The offending limb is extending beyond it in a way that utterly conflicts with their perception, leading to the strong desire to change their body to match the brain's boundary map. Even in people without BIID the brain's body map is malleable to a certain degree.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/neurophilosophy/2013/aug/26/monkey-rubber-hand-illusion

About a hundred years ago, the great neurologist Henry Head suggested that the brain contains maps of the body, and that these maps – which he referred to as 'schemata' – can expand to incorporate clothes, tools and other objects. "Anything which participates in the conscious movement of our bodies," he wrote in a classic 1911 paper, "is added to the model of ourselves and becomes part of these schemata: a woman's [schemata] may extend to the feather in her hat."

Head's idea was very prescient; it has been confirmed by modern research which shows that the brain's representation of the body is indeed highly malleable. This work shows that the body map can be temporarily altered by tool use, distorted by various drugs and diseases, and deliberately manipulated in illusions of bodily awareness. A study published today now reveals how the activity of individual brain cells changes as external objects are assimilated into the body map.

One of the most striking examples of body map's malleability is the so-called rubber hand illusion, which was first demonstrated in 1998. As the film clip below shows, the illusion can be induced by simple manipulations of the sensory information entering the brain, which create a discrepancy between vision and touch that tricks the brain into treating an artificial hand as a real body part, or taking 'ownership' of it.

The new study, led by Solaiman Shokur of L'Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL) in Switzerland, involved inducing a virtual reality version of the rubber hand illusion in two macaque monkeys. Working in collaboration with Miguel Nicolelis and his colleagues at Duke University, Shokur strapped the monkeys into a customized chair, with their arms were hidden from view under a large screen. The screen displayed a pair of computer-generated arms, whose size and position closely resembled those of the monkeys' real limbs.

 

[Amalthea]

You know; for the longest time people thought that I was neurologically disabled because of ignorance about my gender dysphoria and even got disabled support for the depressions I developed because of those reasons. But since I transitioned all those problems are gone, I'm like a normal person now and I'm sure that I can get rid of the support sooner than later.

 

[terrisus]

This kind of reminded me of a debate I was having the other day with a dude who intentionally got infected with HIV.

Yeah, I was going to say - "bug chasers"/"bug catchers"

 

[Tesseract]

I imagine the number of people who want to self-amputate is so infinitely small that it's pointless to even discuss their impact on social benefits. Otherwise I foresee a certain group of people saying we should cut back on disability benefits because they feel some 'abuse' it.

yeah, that's a good point

dat pathos be messing me ups

i'm just gonna blame mirror neurons and get back to studying

 

[olore]

Sorry, these people need professional help of the mental variety

 

[teacupcopter]

I feel for the people that think they need to do this, but protecting behaviour like this is not healthy for the person or for society at large, and frankly I think labelling is as Transabled is a gross and massive slap to anyone going through serious and legitimate changes or thoughts of changes in the scope of what we traditionally would call "trans" issues (Gender, sexual preferences, etc)

Trans people have something in their brain that we can fix, assist or change (I'm not trying to be offensive with these terms, I actually don't know what term is better to use) to help them feel better in whatever body they can be in. "Trans-abled" people simply need mental help to fix up before they hurt themselves.

I'm usually not one to say this, in fact I usually recoil at it when it's said, but what is too far with this? Transabled, I don't want to walk, break my spine so I am a quadriplegic, I feel this is my natural state!! Transgendered individuals at least you can completely understand it's social constructs and how we live our lives, I mean who can really say "I had my awakening that I believed I didn't want my arms on my twelfth birthday".

What's next after this? Are we going to PC up people with suicidal tendencies and just let 18 year olds commit suicide after break ups? Are we going to let the people who "want" to get AIDS or HIV (bug chasing?) do this as well? I mean I just don't understand anyone who makes this comparison between Transgendered people and people who just want to physically hurt themselves. It's such a mockery of the former it's offensive.

 

[beasty]

How can they get surgeon to amputate their limbs?

 

[Amir0x]

I feel for the people that think they need to do this, but protecting behaviour like this is not healthy for the person or for society at large, and frankly I think labelling is as Transabled is a gross and massive slap to anyone going through serious and legitimate changes or thoughts of changes in the scope of what we traditionally would call "trans" issues (Gender, sexual preferences, etc)

Trans people have something in their brain that we can fix, assist or change (I'm not trying to be offensive with these terms, I actually don't know what term is better to use) to help them feel better in whatever body they can be in. "Trans-abled" people simply need mental help to fix up before they hurt themselves.

I'm usually not one to say this, in fact I usually recoil at it when it's said, but what is too far with this? Transabled, I don't want to walk, break my spine so I am a quadriplegic, I feel this is my natural state!! Transgendered individuals at least you can completely understand it's social constructs and how we live our lives, I mean who can really say "I had my awakening that I believed I didn't want my arms on my twelfth birthday".

What's next after this? Are we going to PC up people with suicidal tendencies and just let 18 year olds commit suicide after break ups? Are we going to let the people who "want" to get AIDS or HIV (bug chasing?) do this as well? I mean I just don't understand anyone who makes this comparison between Transgendered people and people who just want to physically hurt themselves. It's such a mockery of the former it's offensive.

The thing is that Doctor's think people with this condition sometimes have something in their brain they can fix too. It's not so black and white.

With something we don't know much about, it's probably best not to make assumptions about an individual's relation to that diagnoses - whether they want it or psychologically need it for example.

 

[Dennis]

Some problematic transablephobia in here.

I welcome these people with open arm.

loooooool brb going to hell

 

[Downhome]

If you ask me, it's possible to be TOO open minded and accepting. Ugh.

 

[DoctorFling]

I cannot wrap my head around this whatsoever.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Sorry, these people need professional help of the mental variety

I doubt you're qualified to make that statement. The medical and psychological community doesn't even seem to have any sort of consensus on this topic.

 

[Condom]

Yep this is a mental illness

With that logic homosexuality and transexuality are illnesses too? Just accepted by the public?

 

[José Mourinho]

The transabled are criminally underrepresented in the gaming industry and I think this needs to be rectified.

 

[Theonik]

Some problematic transablephobia in here.

I welcome these people with open arm.

They'd take you up on that offer but... You know.

 

[Screaming Meat]

This is Brass Eye levels of odd.

Do "Transabled" folk receive disability benefits?

 

[Beefy]

A few years back I had feels like this. I felt my left arm wasn't part of my body, it felt like it was some one elses arm just randomly attached to me this went on for a few months on and off. It freaked me out big time. I can see why people who have a worse condition get to the stage that they want a limb etc removed, even if I don't agree with it.

 

[SystemBug]

Oh I think I have this. I have been wanting to. It my left arm for a few years now or at least see it gone