Ben Carson says prison proves being gay is a choice.

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The problem is that a lot of people view the world in terms of a proper order they believe is imposed on top of it. Anything that violates this order is dangerous and destructive to society, even if a rational argument can be made for why it isn't dangerous. Such as "it shouldn't matter what two consenting adults do in the bedroom".

It's a reason why there are certain right-wing code words to look for, such as "disordered" when referring to gay relationships. It doesn't just mean being gay is a disorder in some medical sense. It insinuates "the choice to commit gay acts" is a violation of the world's natural order, and therefore intrinsically destructive to the world and everything in it.

The medical or scientific argument, affirming sexual orientation is not a choice at a biological level, may in some cases be the only way to drag certain people kicking and screaming out of their beliefs about correct "order". Otherwise they will continue to see claims that homosexuality is natural and harmless as mere fluffy ideas, dashed against the firm bedrock of their belief society must be strictly ordered for it to make sense.
 
elelunicy said:
I made that comparison to make it sound more ridiculous.

The notion that whether someone would like yellow or blue, classical music or pop music, pepsi or coke, android or ios are all determined before they were even born sounds like an argument from a hard determinist to me. It completely disregards human free will and devalues people's life choices. Saying that you can't choose to be gay because you're either born gay or you're not is offensive becuase as it suggusts humans are like robots, i.e. only do what they're programmed to do (and in humans' case, only do what their genes tell them to do), when in reality people's life experiences, more so than genes, are what make people who they are.
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I think the truth is that we simply don't know. I have had the nature/nurture argument with my girlfriend about a variety of topics (adoption, homosexuality, etc.) and it all ends up in gray area with no clear conclusion. I await the day it's settled.
 
elelunicy said:
I made that comparison to make it sound more ridiculous.

The notion that whether someone would like yellow or blue, classical music or pop music, pepsi or coke, android or ios are all determined before they were even born sounds like an argument from a hard determinist to me. It completely disregards human free will and devalues people's life choices. Saying that you can't choose to be gay because you're either born gay or you're not is offensive becuase as it suggusts humans are like robots, i.e. only do what they're programmed to do (and in humans' case, only do what their genes tell them to do), when in reality people's life experiences, more so than genes, are what make people who they are.
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As far as I know the current scientific understanding of the development of homosexuality is that it is based around first a genetic predisposition towards showing sexual attraction to the same gender which is then enhanced/selected for during phoetal growth, mainly through a different balance of hormones in the womb. Studies have shown that there are structural differences in the brains of homosexual people when compared to heterosexuals, differences that are most likely formed at the same time as the brain itself.

I'd also prefer that you not insult me by insinuating that my rationalising away my feelings for years and trying to force myself to like girls in ways I simply couldn't was because I had simply 'chosen' to be gay one day. We do not choose to go through mental (and far too often physical) agony and repression simply because "starting today I feel like making out with people who share my base sets of chromosomes".

Now, having said that, you are absolutely right in that there isn't simply a switch for hetero or homo. Sexuality can be a lot more fluid than those two binaries for a lot of people, but a general predisposition towards one or the other is common and, as I mentioned earlier, likely developed as a phoetus.
 
I know it's easy for straight people to think "well, yeah, it might be a choice, why not?". Can I please know how I can un-choose, then? Because the choice argument would only make sense if we wanted to be gay. No one wants to, no one would choose to endure all the crap that comes with being gay, and if there was a way to choose to be straight, I'd do it.

It's always straight people being absolutely sure that it's a choice. It can be out of good faith, like thinking it's just like preferring a different color (I didn't choose to love blue anyway, lol), or it can be... it often is out of bad faith - we chose to be deviants, sinful, promiscuous, etc. (and it makes homophobes feel better about themselves, because they clearly "chose" the "correct path").
 
RM8 said:
I know it's easy for straight people to think "well, yeah, it might be a choice, why not?". Can I please know how I can un-choose, then? Because the choice argument would only make sense if we wanted to be gay. No one wants to, no one would choose to endure all the crap that comes with being gay, and if there was a way to choose to be straight, I'd do it.
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This. I asked my grandma once what she really thought about me being gay and her response was "I would never wish for you to be gay because having been born gay is hard with all the ignorant people out there, but that you are gay doesn't matter to me."

Paraphrase, but you get me. She was never unhappy, upset, mad or bothered that I was gay, only what I was going to have to go through to be myself.

I'd also love to meet someone who "chose" to be gay. I'd love to ask them a few questions. Such as "why?" and "how did you divert your attraction to the same sex and how can I accomplish that same thing?"

Should "choosing to be gay" matter? No. Does it? Yes. That's the reality of the situation and this man proves exactly WHY it matters at this point.
 
elelunicy said:
I made that comparison to make it sound more ridiculous.

The notion that whether someone would like yellow or blue, classical music or pop music, pepsi or coke, android or ios are all determined before they were even born sounds like an argument from a hard determinist to me. It completely disregards human free will and devalues people's life choices. Saying that you can't choose to be gay because you're either born gay or you're not is offensive becuase as it suggusts humans are like robots, i.e. only do what they're programmed to do (and in humans' case, only do what their genes tell them to do), when in reality people's life experiences, more so than genes, are what make people who they are.
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People don't choose life experiences either.

I like certain foods because my mother gave them to me when I was young and so I developed a taste for them. I never consciously decided to like those foods, and I can't simply choose to find the taste unpleasant. We know that early exposure plays a great deal in food preferences. That might offend your "free will", but your being offended can't change fact.

Are you by any chance bisexual and unable to fathom that not all people are?

Also you might as well be offended by the fact that we can't willfully change our eye color if you're so offended by the fact that biological factors might control some behaviors absolutely. And indeed, biological factors might control sexuality to such a large degree that it would be asinine to suggest someone could simply choose to be gay or straight if they willed it hard enough.
 
RM8 said:
I know it's easy for straight people to think "well, yeah, it might be a choice, why not?". Can I please know how I can un-choose, then? Because the choice argument would only make sense if we wanted to be gay. No one wants to, no one would choose to endure all the crap that comes with being gay, and if there was a way to choose to be straight, I'd do it.

It's always straight people being absolutely sure that it's a choice. It can be out of good faith, like thinking it's just like preferring a different color (I didn't choose to love blue anyway, lol), or it can be... it often is out of bad faith - we chose to be deviants, sinful, promiscuous, etc. (and it makes homophobes feel better about themselves, because they clearly "chose" the "correct path").
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I always had a feeling that the people who are adamant in their belief that homosexuality is a choice just do so because it's easier to damn us that way. It's not as easy to feel comfortable with thinking someone deserves ridicule and eternal damnation if you're aware that whatever it is they're doing is out of their control.

And yeah, Carson is spewing foolish shit like usual, nothing about his rationale makes any sense here.
 
Good God. This Ben Carson dude. The ignorance it takes to consider one stray data point and manufacture it into an asinine argument he can apply as a blanket criticism against an entire group of people. Surely any logical person would refrain from making such an ill-advised, brash generalization...

Coins said:
This is why religion is detrimental to society..
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Oh...
 
Jinkies said:
I would describe it as most people are born more attracted to one gender than the other. Those labels describe a world where sexuality is largely binary, and I personally reject that idea.
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Hmm, well personally even when I figured I was straight (I'm not) I wasn't in any way attracted to women. When I realized I was into men and started self-identifying as gay I don't think that put some psychological block that made me unable to find women attractive anymore. I never possessed that attraction in the first place. Some people are binary.
 
Carson is like the medical version of the plant operator guys I work with. If a petrochemical unit is about to explode there's no one you'd rather have with you than these guys. They're fucking ace operators with balls of Valyrian steel.

But otherwise they're ignorant as fuck.
 
“I am not a politician and I answered a question without really thinking about it thoroughly,” he wrote. “No excuses. I deeply regret my statement and I promise you, on this journey, I may err again"
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He just didn't really think about it. Ok, no problem.
 
I don't understand when people call something like this an opinion. Either he's correct or incorrect, so it isn't an opinion, yet people always say they have a different opinion when they are talking about sexuality.
 
The amazing thing is seeing some Republicans love this guy because he's a doctor and "smart" (not really) but then refuse to listen to the overwhelming majority of other educated scientists about global climate change, etc

PANTHEON said:
I don't understand when people call something like this an opinion. Either he's correct or incorrect, so it isn't an opinion, yet people always say they have a different opinion when they are talking about sexuality.
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The opinion defense is what stubborn people say when they've completely lost an argument and their view has been 100% proven wrong, but they want to stand their ground instead of actually admitting to anything or GASP changing their minds (you know, like real scientists do all the time when evidence changes). And they usually don't even understand what an opinion is or isn't and what kind of defenses or validity an opinion holds. Some things are actually opinions, but many aren't and have been completely bastardized to appear as such. It's often a defense of the bigoted and ignorant.
 
so according the the article the op posted, ...

if a guy finds a new found satisfacion from getting anally penetrated, is he gay or did he just became gay?
 
Most straight(hell, even gay) people getting raped in prison would probably get out of there traumatized, not suddenly turned gay.

Wtf kind of logic is that? And that's supposed to be a smart person?
 
CornBurrito said:
Personally its still really fucking annoying being told you consciously chose something when you know that you didn't.
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Yeah. I appreciate the intent behind "why should it matter?", but guys, we truly didn't and it's pretty annoying that being profoundly misinformed is the norm :/
 
I'm wondering why the interviewer didn't follow up Carson's assertion that:

1. There is data saying that previously straight males leave prison and choose to be homosexual.

2. That its direct evidence proving its a choice and that data has some correlation to the LGTB population as a whole.

I would have asked for data instead of just conceding the point.


Reality is, that its only a "choice", to those who want to discriminate and not feel like a asshat.
 
elelunicy said:
I made that comparison to make it sound more ridiculous.

The notion that whether someone would like yellow or blue, classical music or pop music, pepsi or coke, android or ios are all determined before they were even born sounds like an argument from a hard determinist to me. It completely disregards human free will and devalues people's life choices. Saying that you can't choose to be gay because you're either born gay or you're not is offensive becuase as it suggusts humans are like robots, i.e. only do what they're programmed to do (and in humans' case, only do what their genes tell them to do), when in reality people's life experiences, more so than genes, are what make people who they are.
Click to expand...

Seriously? You're actually comparing liking colors, music, sodas...etc to being gay? Are you suggesting that people choose to like all of these things? Homosexuality is innate part of who some people are, just like some people are born left-handed. Oh, let me guess you're next going to argue the idea that people are born right-handed or left-handed completely disregards human free will and devalues people's choices? Saying people are born gay in no way suggest that humans are programmed to do what their genes tell them to do. Being gay isn't doing something Yes, we choose what we do(as in what actions we take). Being gay is feeling something, not doing something. So no, no one is programmed to do being gay, but some people are programmed to have gay feelings.

You really need to get over this bogus idea that everything in life is a choice. We have free will to decide our actions, inactions or reactions, but we can't choose the degree to which we like something or how it feels to us. Your senses does that for you. The sense of sight relays the message back to the brain the degree to which the person you are looking at is attractive to you. The sense of smell relays the message back to the brain the degree to how something smells to you...etc. You can choose to drink coke, but you can't choose to like the taste of it. Your sense of taste will tell you, the degree to which you like it.. If you touch a hot stove burner, you don't just go, "I choose for this to feel cold to me" It is impossible to choose to be attracted to someone. You are, sort of are or you're not.

Our life experiences helps to shape what our senses likes or dislikes, but it's not due to any direct choices he make. As for homosexuality, there are plenty of gay people that grow up in the same environment or share the same life experiences as siblings or friends, yet these other people will end up straight. There are two sexes (male & female) two genders,(masculine & feminine), there is right-handed & left-handed, there are multiple {eye colors, hair colors, skin colors...etc} The whole notion that there is only one natural sexual orientation(heterosexuality) is ridiculous.
 
I'm going to guess that Dr. Carson is bringing out the tired trope of homosexuality being based in action rather than who one is attracted to. That is, one is "gay" if they perform a sexual act with someone of the same sex, rather than someone being gay because they are attracted to members of the same sex (independent of whether they die a virgin or not). Carson, being the pansexual he is, probably sees gay sex (and in turn, "being gay", since that's how he defines it) as chocolate; it's not good for you (as defined by religion) and it can be tempting, but it's a choice whether you decide to put it in your mouth or not.
 
Idontknow said:
Seriously? You're actually comparing liking colors, music, sodas...etc to being gay? Are you suggesting that people choose to like all of these things? Homosexuality is innate part of who some people are, just like some people are born left-handed. Oh, let me guess you're next going to argue the idea that people are born right-handed or left-handed completely disregards human free will and devalues people's choices? Saying people are born gay in no way suggest that humans are programmed to do what their genes tell them to do. Being gay isn't doing something Yes, we choose what we do(as in what actions we take). Being gay is feeling something, not doing something. So no, no one is programmed to do being gay, but some people are programmed to have gay feelings.

You really need to get over this bogus idea that everything in life is a choice. We have free will to decide our actions, inactions or reactions, but we can't choose the degree to which we like something or how it feels to us. Your senses does that for you. The sense of sight relays the message back to the brain the degree to which the person you are looking at is attractive to you. The sense of smell relays the message back to the brain the degree to how something smells to you...etc. You can choose to drink coke, but you can't choose to like the taste of it. Your sense of taste will tell you, the degree to which you like it.. If you touch a hot stove burner, you don't just go, "I choose for this to feel cold to me" It is impossible to choose to be attracted to someone. You are, sort of are or you're not.

Our life experiences helps to shape what our senses likes or dislikes, but it's not due to any direct choices he make. As for homosexuality, there are plenty of gay people that grow up in the same environment or share the same life experiences as siblings or friends, yet these other people will end up straight. There are two sexes (male & female) two genders,(masculine & feminine), there is right-handed & left-handed, there are multiple {eye colors, hair colors, skin colors...etc} The whole notion that there is only one natural sexual orientation(heterosexuality) is ridiculous.
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As you pointed out, the word "choice" is a bit of a misnomer for gay people, as actively choosing does not enter the equation. I'd say bisexuals are more fitting for the word "choice", but even for them they do not choose to be attracted to some one. They may have a wider array of options to be potentially attracted to, but this is still something that operates on a subconscious level.

The subconscious nature vs nurture cocktail is an interesting subject, but I do agree that on this particular matter, it makes the most sense to me if it is heavily slanted towards nature. While of course still a minority, homosexuality is pretty regularly observed in other species. That fact alone already makes the entire argument that homosexuality is "unnatural" absurd, but the entire angle is a bit dishonest to begin with as well. There is a plethora of unnatural things we accept on a regular basis, so why would it suddenly become a problem here? Pretty sure driving a car is less natural than being attracted to someone.
 
It would be nice to live in a world where someone's sexuality didn't need to be explained and was just accepted for what it is.

Sexuality is innate, but it can obviously be shaped in a psychological context of what society accepts as a whole. That leads to dangerous senses of shame for people who don't fit in to archaic religious constructs of what is deemed normal.

People are born gay and they shouldn't be treated like crap because of this. Being gay is normal. But if society wasn't so hung up about sexuality in general there would be no taboo about people engaging in healthy exploration of what interests them. Sexuality isn't binary either.
 
Yeah, I sure choose to lose my friends when they find out about me. I also choose to have smaller dating pool and having to resort mostly on online dating to find a date. I also choose to be hated, made fun of, and discriminated against by a bunch of busybody fuckers who can't mind their own business and can't stand that someone has different sexual preference.

Oh wait.....
 
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