Bernie stan: Bernie Will Win the Nomination and Presidency in a Landslide
- Thread starter Marion Cobretti
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Bam Bam Baklava
Member
If you were a Republican that was interested in winning. Who do you want representing your party right now? Rubio and Kasich, two figures that appeal to centrists from two swing states, or Cruz and Trump?
It's a shame the Dems have so little to choose from. O'Malley may have been a better option if he wasn't from Maryland and fucked up Baltimore.
It's a shame the Dems have so little to choose from. O'Malley may have been a better option if he wasn't from Maryland and fucked up Baltimore.
NullPointer
Member
Of course it does.
But repeating "unelectable" as a mantra so far out from any actual measures of support in the voting booth comes across as undemocratic and arrogant and is exactly what feeds the coronation of Hillary narrative.
Personally I want to see Bernie and Hillary keep at it, and watch how their campaigns develop and how their message gets out there over time. Its still early yet, not that it matters to some, as Bernie has been subjected to this unelectable shit from day zero.
If he's really unelectable we'll know soon enough, and have better data to work with.
Maybe because he understands that these issues are intrinsically linked, as Doctor King did as well.
Here he talks about that
Getting the message in the right language is something they have struggled with, for sure. I truly believe his head and heart are in the right place on these issues. BLM has had their run-ins with the Hillary campaign as well. No candidate really comes out unscathed on racial issues. Obama is definitely not exempt either, and I find myself wondering how he'd have handled some BLM protesters coming to some of his rallies if he were campaigning this year for a first term.
jackissocool
Member
Do you marginal value? Subjective is not really a major theory of value. The only real contender to the LTV is marginal. Subjective theory is based on circular reasoning and is useless - why even have a theory of value with no consistent analytical ability? Honestly it's kind of dumb.
Marginalism relies on removing societal context to function as a sufficient explanation of value and entirely ignores the productive process.
That interview is really the best Bernie has sounded his whole campaign. Killer Mike is the coolest dude.
But the real issue is that Bernie doesn't tackle the roots of that economic injustice. Yeah, he gets deeper than the most shallow surface, but he doesn't address the actual system of capitalism that perpetuates racism. Not only that, but you need to tackle racism as its own issue in addition to the economic aspect of it.
Also I think you've gotta remember that interview was well after the BLM protesters interrupted him. Before that he had been a lot less willing to talk openly about race.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Another point to bring up is that Democrats might be more interested in economic topics right now, but Republicans and Independents are completely fixated on terrorism. So is the media by the way and if we keep hearing about attacks in Paris or now Indonesia (especially if it's ISIS) then Sanders message will not be able to stand. Especially given that Democrats are already perceived as soft on terror to begin with.
NullPointer
Member
Similarly what if we have another crash, and more talk of bailouts? The pendulum can swing every which way, and I don't think any of the candidates out there have been put to any tests recently.
As long as Republicans get floored, I don't care who wins. Enemies of reason, they is.
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This is pretty much where I am at this point too. I'll vote for anyone on the ballot for president as long as they aren't republican.
How do you answer the diamond/water paradox?
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
If there's another crash Democrats will be blamed considering Obama has been President for the last 7 years. It would be hopeless for anyone within his party.
jackissocool
Member
You mean the paradox based on literally imagining a lone dude in the desert? This is the whole issue with marginal value. It only works in inane fantasy scenarios that have no relevance to wider social and economic context. I don't care about one imaginary dude in the desert. I care about the way our real life global economy functions, and the driving force of that is labor.
EDIT: Wait, my bad. You're referring to the question of why are diamonds worth more than water, right? Sorry, I'm so used to hearing it drilled down to the lone dude in the desert scenario. I would explain it with the LTV. Diamonds take a lot of work. Water doesn't. Add in commodity fetishism and Marxism provides a very clear explanation for the "paradox of value". My previous statements I still stand by, however. Marginal theory relies on decontextualized individual interactions and has no capacity to deal with large scale social forces.
JesseEwiak
Member
If there's another crash and it's under a Democratic president, the only conversation on TV will be about how many regulations to cut, how big the tax cut to rich people should be, and how entitlements need to be "reformed."
boiled goose
good with gravy
Seems to me you are just speculating.
Polls show Bernie does better with indepemdents than hillary.
Polls also show him doing better than Hillary vs Trump and Cruz. Im not sure about rubio.
Also, trump does better with moderate Republicans and independents than other Republicans according to polls, so yeah. You are just kinda wrong.
It can't just be up there, either. That's the problem.
We risk having the enemies of reason potentially everywhere else besides the presidency.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Carson was beating every Dem you could name handily two months ago. Hermann Cain was beating Obama in polls in 2011. These polls don't mean shit until you actually face the scrutiny that Clinton, Obama, and Trump face every day.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
Not a chance in hell of a landslide, unless Hillary is indicted by the Feds. Damn I wish Biden was running or Mitt...thats right MITT.
C'mon Mitt you could still win even if you skipped Iowa.
C'mon Mitt you could still win even if you skipped Iowa.
I mean, if the dude openly running as a socialist isn't adequately addressing the "system of capitalism that perpetuates racism" then I take it you'd agree that no candidate is. So... Why is that somehow a mark against his campaign?
Also, he's certainly talked more about race than any other remotely relevant candidate since day 1 (except Trump, probably). That meme is tired.
I'm curious to know how government is supposed to actually combat racism through means other than promoting economic equality... Like, actual policies. Is there a magic wand that destroys racism somewhere that a certain candidate has?
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Democratic socialist, there's a big difference.
No I'm not speculating. Independents are usually center democrats or, to a large extent republicans who are dissatisfied but still don't vote Dem. Bernie had a higher favoribity with them because no one who can lower those numbers is. They don't see him as a threat right now, so why should they be aiming heat at him when Hillary is a much more clear and present danger?
Throwing around potential match ups means jack at this stage as well. Again we are way way way to far away to be doing those kind of polls, and again, it's ignoring that a real matchup will be a no holds contest brawl. Just wait until republicans start throwing around the "S" word. Jesus, I can hear the negative ads now.
Yeah, when it's convenient to your point. When your argument is "he's not electable" then that distinction isn't all that important, is it? But I digress...
If the only candidate who won't call himself a 'capitalist' isn't getting to the root of the inherent problems caused by capitalism, then who the hell is? Nobody?
gutter_trash
Banned
kirblar is correct when it comes to "independents" in the US
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I'm just pointing where the user is coming from and there's a point to be made and is completely unrelated to electability.
OK. I'm on a hike in some backcountry locale and I see a diamond on the ground. I pick it up. Turns out it's worth tens of millions of dollars. I've invested no effort whatsoever.
I sell the diamond to some wealthy capitalist. I take my money and create a company that employs hundreds of people. I decide that we're going to be a dessert company and bake pies. But instead of using fruit or sugar, we're going to use mud. We work really hard, hundreds of hours a week, but for some reason no wants our pies. We literally can't give them away. They're worth $0.
How does the LTV account for such scenarios?
Ehhhh...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/180440/new-record-political-independents.aspx
The split is close and usually favors Democrats. I'm sure you'll proceed to speculate that democratic leaning independents are center-left but don't feel at home with the party for some reason because that would fit nicely in to the narrative you'd like to spin... But, I think there's a healthy amount of progressives out there who identify as independent because they're tired of their votes being held hostage by Democrats because "at least we're not Republicans."
Either way, kirblar's line of thinking is hardly less speculative than current GE polling. Are we arguing that Bernie is polling better with independents because they don't know how much of an evil socialist he is yet? Or because they want to stick it to Hillary (then they'll magically side with her when it matters, I'm sure).
The anti-establishment sentiment is real, guys. Stop trying to shove this race into your convenient little "Bush v. Clinton 2: Electric Boogaloo" boxes.
jackissocool
Member
How does such a fantasy scenario have any relevance to the real world? The economy doesn't run on people finding things in the woods. And who would spend hundreds of hours making pies out of mud? The only situations where the marginal theory works is nonsense imaginary not-real-world. Especially lol because the marginal theory only works on the assumption of rational actors but your scenario relies on completely irrational decisions. And no diamond is worth tens of millions raw from the ground.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Have you considered any scenario in which Sanders loses or do you think he's just guaranteed?
What the huh? Hillary is still the favorite. Where the shit did you get "There's no way Sanders loses" from that post? I contend that Bernie has a good shot at winning more independent support than Hillary, but that only means so much in the Democratic primaries.
They're thought experiments used to try to prove a point. Obviously, no firm makes mud pies, but lots of companies make products that don't sell or don't sell well regardless of how much effort they put in.
Another example would be from the arts. You take two painters of equal skill that invest equal effort into a painting. But for some reason, one of the painters becomes famous and the other does not. The famous one can sell his work for millions, the other can barely give it away.
The amount of effort/labor put into a product seems to have almost no bearing on its desirability. The profitability of a firm seems to have virtually no relation to the total number of people it employs. Etc.
jackissocool
Member
The arts are inherently extremely subjective. How on earth do you define "equal skill"? Their value is only relevant in broader social context. You're also confusing exchange value (price) and use value. After all, how does the marginal theory explain the value of the labor put into products that don't sell? How does the marginal theory explain the productive process at all? The LTV doesn't claim that all forms of value derive entirely from labor. It claims that the primary factor of use value is labor, and there's more that goes into labor than just man hours.
And the profitability of a firm very directly correlates to the number of people it employs. The less they can employ, the more profitable they are. That's because the workers' labor is the core aspect of value and workers must be compensated. The primary goal of employers is to balance labor with sales costs in order to generate a profit by denying laborers the value they create. This interaction is the core mechanic of capitalism: capitalists vs. laborers. If that profit doesn't come from labor, where does it come from?
And again, marginal value only works when removed from context. It also assumes everyone a) is a rational actor all the time and b) believes they the ability to positively alter life.
You know that, I know that, but the average voter is going to stop at the word 'socialist' and walk away. Bernie's supporters want to dismiss this fact, but if he gets the nomination then he's going to have to defend against the inevitable attacks from the GOP - and by claiming the socialist label, he's made it far easier for the GOP to do so.
To me, Sanders is electable if people want him to be electable.
Almost every single person Ive met in my country, both young and adult is for Sanders. The reason Norwegians know about him is because he's for the core politics we have In Norway and we want USA to drop and change a lot of the politics USA has today and with Hillary that wont happen. I have never actually seen Norwegians so much active in whats going on in American politics as right now and its due to Sanders.
We like Obama, but we found a lot of his politics too right winged. He was a good president, Hillary will be a good president, but Sanders represent Scandinavian values way more than Hillary and Obama.
When it comes to the republicans everyone excelt for some of the right winged folks think they are nuts and full of shit.
Almost every single person Ive met in my country, both young and adult is for Sanders. The reason Norwegians know about him is because he's for the core politics we have In Norway and we want USA to drop and change a lot of the politics USA has today and with Hillary that wont happen. I have never actually seen Norwegians so much active in whats going on in American politics as right now and its due to Sanders.
We like Obama, but we found a lot of his politics too right winged. He was a good president, Hillary will be a good president, but Sanders represent Scandinavian values way more than Hillary and Obama.
When it comes to the republicans everyone excelt for some of the right winged folks think they are nuts and full of shit.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Rush to the ramparts without reading what you're reacting to.
I specifically called out Reddit's Sanders supporters as providing a more measured and nuanced response than other places, including this one.
I specifically said that I have no beef with Sanders personally.
When you figure out how to square what was actually posted with whatever you're on about, give me a call. I'll be over here trying to devise a method to Fulton wormhole the next jackass who says HE MARCHED WITH KING onto the farthest Antarctic ice floe.
I agree.
To be fair, he's just employing the same tactics the mainstream media are using to influence polls in their favour.
"Hillary Clinton will likely win the election"...
"Hillary is the presumed nominee..."
Hillary's poll numbers will go up.
"Bernie Sanders will likely win the election"...
"Sanders is the presumed nominee..."
Sanders' poll numbers will go up.
It's all just a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And let's be clear. The media have been bombarding us with Clinton's presumptive win for the last 8 fucking years. Of course she's winning national polls. Sanders has had a couple of months (at best) of debatable positive affirmation (at best).
The problem with your argument is that Bernie Sanders is running to be the US president. He's not supposed to be a best representation of Scandinavian values.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Bernie is too conservative on immigration and guns for me
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Agreed, it's time to stop saying this now. Bernie has an actual chance now, he's in the fight, surprisingly I admit.
JesseEwiak
Member
Get back to me in 10 years when half your country believes all your taxes are going to take care of Muslims who refuse to get jobs.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Yeah. That's not how this works. Hillary is a horrible alternative to Bernie and just for the sake of being less horrible than the GOP is how people who deserve the presidency, lose it. Vote for the best candidate, period.As long as Republicans get floored, I don't care who wins. Enemies of reason, they is.
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Dash_Riprock
Member
Edit: My bad guys, got my threads mixed up! Did NOT mean to necrobump!
Claude Kenni
Member
Solid bump.
chaobreaker
Member
stealth crow eating bump? Kind of fascinating to see the posts of this thread though.
Stealth? I don't think so.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Yeah, rub it in. That will win the Bernie supporters over...
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