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[Foffy]

damn foffy, you just went full joker on us

not that i disagree

I am not saying watch the world burn because "lolchaos." It's that our ideas about the world are so stern and so full of shit that any action in our current model is already one where you're already accepting progenitor ideas that ruin the entire arrangement.

Health care and labor are examples of this. The progenitor arguments is that one must have these things, and they are punished for lacking them. Everything we do from that view is trying to alleviate the suffering they cause, but never the fact the way we hold those ideas is what causes the suffering in the beginning. Demand health care as a package to buy in, and you have people struggling to hang on. Demand you must live in probation on this earth, and people become slaves for paper, and live for status and futile attempts at sustainability.

Those ideas do not need improvements, as if they need to be worked on. They need replacements, so they need to be eliminated as a stream to flow with.

 

[jackissocool]

I'm aware of the arguments, but the historical reality of human behavior is not very kind to them. Capitalism will eventually be sloughed off, but the likelihood is any attempt to envision what that new system might look like are doomed to Nostredamism, just as one could not have predicted the modern-day USA or Western Europe doing a socioeconomic analysis of Europe in the 1500s.

Marxism's not predicated on predicting the far off details of communism. Serious Marxists will almost always dismiss such discussions as idealistic because we can't possibly know the material conditions of the world hundreds of years from now. They would agree with what you're saying there, bascially. Yes, historical materialism posits that society will eventually move to socialism and then communism, but past socialism it never gets detailed in serious theoretical discussion.

The core of Marxism is 1) An extremely thorough critique of capitalism, 2) advocating for worker ownership of the means of production (socialism), and 3) developing political theory on how to achieve socialism. It's silly to dismiss an idea because it can't perfectly predict the future. What can? Right now, Marxism (and anarchism) are the best theories we have for what's next. They're not static - it's our responsibility to improve them and grow closer to reality.

"less than sensitive" is putting it kindly.

Pack of slavering assholes, yelling at black people how Bernie marched with MLK like it was some kind of trap card to get them to shut up about Black Lives Matter. Furious at the temerity of these Negroes demanding to have their issues treated with a modicum of respect by those running for the Democratic candidacy. Hearing "Earn Our Vote" as speaking out of turn. Expecting the black vote to fall in lockstep behind their candidate because HEY HE MARCHED WITH KING YOU KNOW and frankly, it's better to just vote how you're told because we know what's best for you. Mad because rallies about ye olde economy were occasionally interrupted by black ladies saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we stopped getting murdered in the street for a change?

Yeah, that so-called "meme" was a tidal wave of asshattery in 2015 directed at anyone with the gall to push back on Sanders' tone deaf insistence on pivoting to the economy whenever he was challenged on racial issues in America. Hell, Reddit was one of the better places to get a measured response from Sanders supporters. It was Shithead Central in here for ages, and that's just a small taste of the vitriol I saw directed by his supporters at BLM in general.

And the hilarious thing is that it's still happening.

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

quoted so the new page can see this truth

I am not saying watch the world burn because "lolchaos." It's that our ideas about the world are so stern and so full of shit that any action in our current model is already one where you're already accepting progenitor ideas that ruin the entire arrangement.

Health care and labor are examples of this. The progenitor arguments is that one must have these things, and they are punished for lacking them. Everything we do from that view is trying to alleviate the suffering they cause, but never the fact the way we hold those ideas is what causes the suffering in the beginning. Demand health care as a package to buy in, and you have people struggling to hang on. Demand you must live in probation on this earth, and people become slaves for paper, and live for status and futile attempts at sustainability.

Those ideas do not need improvements, as if they need to be worked on. They need replacements, so they need to be eliminated as a stream to flow with.

I don't think total destruction and collapse is absolutely necessary before radical systematic change happens, but I do agree that Bernie isn't gonna bring it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it does end up going the way of near-total societal collapse. There's no class consciousness. Reliance on social democrats is accepting a barely altered version of the status quo that is ultimately devastating, no matter how nice you try and make it look.

 

[rjinaz]

I respect and agree with your sincerity. However, there is a great problem here.

What, exactly, is this political revolution Bernie will produce? Like, I actually get that: an entire new paradigm that infers a new status quo, one more rooted in humanism, compassion, and collective wellbeing than the have/not not shit we have. But, where is it? There's Bernie talking about it, and I agree it's in order, but where is the paradigm? Where are the other politicians - or at the very least, people who of our society wish to elect who have similar values that Bernie does - in this system coming to further this message? It amounts to one man with the idea of change, and like Obama, unless the change is an entire paradigm, the change is merely a word from one's mouth.

Many people will just settle for less, and America is a perfect example of this. As long as the house doesn't collapse, we can live with it on fire. These are the people who one way or another buy into the dying game. With that in mind, Hillary is their safe candidate. Things won't get dramatically worse - I think automation will demand a socialistic upheaval, and the next president may as well be inheriting the start of this problem - but by and large things will just coast along. Things won't fall apart, but they won't be reasoned for honesty and prosperity. People want the familiar, even if the familiar, on a macro level, is genuine filth.

I am genuinely of the view this whole body we call a society has to rot before we get the change that not only we need, but is compatible with reality. Anything less than that is merely insignificant patchwork and futile attempts at assimilating to a profoundly sick state of affairs, and whoever is president will be left with this. There is no light here. Watch the carnival and enjoy the dissolution of it all.

You're a Star Trek fan, aren't you? You're not wrong though. I think by nature people resist change, until change is deemed as necessary. I'm not sure it's going to take a crises, it could just be a matter of time, and maybe that matter of time is fast approaching. Maybe it's a few decades off still.

 

[foxtrot3d]

"less than sensitive" is putting it kindly.

Pack of slavering assholes, yelling at black people how Bernie marched with MLK like it was some kind of trap card to get them to shut up about Black Lives Matter. Furious at the temerity of these Negroes demanding to have their issues treated with a modicum of respect by those running for the Democratic candidacy. Hearing "Earn Our Vote" as speaking out of turn. Expecting the black vote to fall in lockstep behind their candidate because HEY HE MARCHED WITH KING YOU KNOW and frankly, it's better to just vote how you're told because we know what's best for you. Mad because rallies about ye olde economy were occasionally interrupted by black ladies saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we stopped getting murdered in the street for a change?

Yeah, that so-called "meme" was a tidal wave of asshattery in 2015 directed at anyone with the gall to push back on Sanders' tone deaf insistence on pivoting to the economy whenever he was challenged on racial issues in America. Hell, Reddit was one of the better places to get a measured response from Sanders supporters. It was Shithead Central in here for ages, and that's just a small taste of the vitriol I saw directed by his supporters at BLM in general.

And the hilarious thing is that it's still happening.

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

Truth.

 

[OuterLimits]

Republicans have largely ignored Sanders and have focused their attacks on Hillary. Thinking a far left 74 year old from Vermont will win a general election in a landslide seems a tad unrealistic.

I would actually feel bad for Hillary if she lost the nomination. It's one thing to barely lose to the very skilled Obama who ran an amazing campaign. Not being able to beat Bernie Sanders though would be absolutely embarrassing.

 

[xJavonta]

Lots of points that make sense here, but I'll believe it when the millennials who tweet about him actually come out and vote on election day.

As a millennial and Sander's supporter, I believe that'll happen this election

 

[Inuhanyou]

It sounds like you haven't followed his presidency at all.

I followed it too much.

When he built up the drone program above the amount even Bush did, flying over unsanctioned countries, when literally nobody got persecuted on Wall Street, when the SEC got defunded, when the absolute debacle of a healthcare 'fight' happened, and all of us got told to sit down and shut up, while they worked out a 'deal' with 'business interests' in the back room.

When he expanded backdoor searches and wanted to expand the spying powers of the administration on daily citizens.

https://www.aclu.org/news/administr...ccess-americans-private-online-communications

When he reinstated the bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 along with tons of cuts to governmental programs.

And now we have TPP. Do you actually think that's a good thing?

There's too many things to count on this matter.

 

[Tesseract]

i don't want 8 more years of establishment politics and media, the system needs to collapse. rip that bandaid off, vote bernie

even obama had to fight the unelectable naysayers, he said so himself at the sotu

to quote the great martin sheen, decisions are made by those who show up

 

[Foffy]

You're a Star Trek fan, aren't you? You're not wrong though. I think by nature people resist change, until change is deemed as necessary. I'm not sure it's going to take a crises, it could just be a matter of time, and maybe that matter of time is fast approaching. Maybe it's a few decades off still.

I have actually never seen a full episode of anything related to Star Trek. My views are largely based on nondualistic philosophy, and more of the genuine "unity" of the world that our social impositions onto the world consistently overlook. You and I are not actually separate, isolated beings, but waves in and of the ocean, to give a poetic example. Why would I want to be in a social arrangement that not only infers division between you and I, and all of the problems that produces, but allows conflict to be a central theme between you and I? You get a society where everyone essentially has a clawsickle, and the goal of human society is to stab the person in front of you with it harder than the person behind you can stab you with his. The one with the biggest social "goodie" - money - is somehow a "winner" here.

There is a great distinction between the world as it more naturally is and the world we've imposed over it, and nearly everything we do has confused the two. We think images of ourselves to be our "self" among other things, and I would wager that's the start of the human problems we've ever had to deal with. Consider also what you said about change: everything is already change. People want stability and something "static" to hold on to, and there's the mistake; they assume it even exists. Their suffering, and their struggle, are already started because an assumption about things is already false regardless if they've even made a single action underneath that lens and context. Society is full of these ghosts.

 

[Slayven]

"less than sensitive" is putting it kindly.

Pack of slavering assholes, yelling at black people how Bernie marched with MLK like it was some kind of trap card to get them to shut up about Black Lives Matter. Furious at the temerity of these Negroes demanding to have their issues treated with a modicum of respect by those running for the Democratic candidacy. Hearing "Earn Our Vote" as speaking out of turn. Expecting the black vote to fall in lockstep behind their candidate because HEY HE MARCHED WITH KING YOU KNOW and frankly, it's better to just vote how you're told because we know what's best for you. Mad because rallies about ye olde economy were occasionally interrupted by black ladies saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we stopped getting murdered in the street for a change?

Yeah, that so-called "meme" was a tidal wave of asshattery in 2015 directed at anyone with the gall to push back on Sanders' tone deaf insistence on pivoting to the economy whenever he was challenged on racial issues in America. Hell, Reddit was one of the better places to get a measured response from Sanders supporters. It was Shithead Central in here for ages, and that's just a small taste of the vitriol I saw directed by his supporters at BLM in general.

And the hilarious thing is that it's still happening.

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

Put in better words then I ever could

 

[Merc_]

"less than sensitive" is putting it kindly.

Pack of slavering assholes, yelling at black people how Bernie marched with MLK like it was some kind of trap card to get them to shut up about Black Lives Matter. Furious at the temerity of these Negroes demanding to have their issues treated with a modicum of respect by those running for the Democratic candidacy. Hearing "Earn Our Vote" as speaking out of turn. Expecting the black vote to fall in lockstep behind their candidate because HEY HE MARCHED WITH KING YOU KNOW and frankly, it's better to just vote how you're told because we know what's best for you. Mad because rallies about ye olde economy were occasionally interrupted by black ladies saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we stopped getting murdered in the street for a change?

Yeah, that so-called "meme" was a tidal wave of asshattery in 2015 directed at anyone with the gall to push back on Sanders' tone deaf insistence on pivoting to the economy whenever he was challenged on racial issues in America. Hell, Reddit was one of the better places to get a measured response from Sanders supporters. It was Shithead Central in here for ages, and that's just a small taste of the vitriol I saw directed by his supporters at BLM in general.

And the hilarious thing is that it's still happening.

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

Yep. Straight truth.

 

[foxtrot3d]

I followed it too much.

When he built up the drone program above the amount even Bush did, flying over unsanctioned countries, when literally nobody got persecuted on Wall Street, when the SEC got defunded, when the absolute debacle of a healthcare 'fight' happened, and all of us got told to sit down and shut up, while they worked out a 'deal' with 'business interests' in the back room.

When he expanded backdoor searches and wanted to expand the spying powers of the administration on daily citizens.

https://www.aclu.org/news/administr...ccess-americans-private-online-communications

When he reinstated the bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 along with tons of cuts to governmental programs.

And now we have TPP. Do you actually think that's a good thing?

There's too many things to count on this matter.

1) Please define "unsanctioned countries."

2) I doubt you, along with most people, understand TPP and what it tries to accomplish.

I'm not saying Pres. Obama hasn't made mistakes or hasn't disappointed in certain areas based on his campaign promises but I feel most folks have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to certain issues.

 

[NeoXChaos]

"less than sensitive" is putting it kindly.

Pack of slavering assholes, yelling at black people how Bernie marched with MLK like it was some kind of trap card to get them to shut up about Black Lives Matter. Furious at the temerity of these Negroes demanding to have their issues treated with a modicum of respect by those running for the Democratic candidacy. Hearing "Earn Our Vote" as speaking out of turn. Expecting the black vote to fall in lockstep behind their candidate because HEY HE MARCHED WITH KING YOU KNOW and frankly, it's better to just vote how you're told because we know what's best for you. Mad because rallies about ye olde economy were occasionally interrupted by black ladies saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we stopped getting murdered in the street for a change?

Yeah, that so-called "meme" was a tidal wave of asshattery in 2015 directed at anyone with the gall to push back on Sanders' tone deaf insistence on pivoting to the economy whenever he was challenged on racial issues in America. Hell, Reddit was one of the better places to get a measured response from Sanders supporters. It was Shithead Central in here for ages, and that's just a small taste of the vitriol I saw directed by his supporters at BLM in general.

And the hilarious thing is that it's still happening.

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

+5

 

[rjinaz]

I have actually never seen a full episode of anything related to Star Trek. My views are largely based on nondualistic philosophy, and more of the genuine "unity" of the world that our social impositions onto the world consistently overlook. You and I are not actually separate, isolated beings, but waves in and of the ocean, to give a poetic example. Why would I want to be in a social arrangement that not only infers division between you and I, and all of the problems that produces, but allows conflict to be a central theme between you and I? You get a society where everyone essentially has a clawsickle, and the goal of human society is to stab the person in front of you with it harder than the person behind you can stab you with his. The one with the biggest social "goodie" - money - is somehow a "winner" here.

There is a great distinction between the world as it more naturally is and the world we've imposed over it, and nearly everything we do has confused the two. We think images of ourselves to be our "self" among other things, and I would wager that's the start of the human problems we've ever had to deal with. Consider also what you said about change: everything is already change. People want stability and something "static" to hold on to, and there's the mistake; they assume it even exists. Their suffering, and their struggle, are already started because an assumption about things is already false regardless if they've even made a single action underneath that lens and context. Society is full of these ghosts.

Dude, I would love to get high with you. You should watch Star Trek, one of the tv series. You'd probably like it.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Marxism's not predicated on predicting the far off details of communism. Serious Marxists will almost always dismiss such discussions as idealistic because we can't possibly know the material conditions of the world hundreds of years from now. They would agree with what you're saying there, bascially. Yes, historical materialism posits that society will eventually move to socialism and then communism, but past socialism it never gets detailed in serious theoretical discussion.

The core of Marxism is 1) An extremely thorough critique of capitalism, 2) advocating for worker ownership of the means of production (socialism), and 3) developing political theory on how to achieve socialism. It's silly to dismiss an idea because it can't perfectly predict the future. What can? Right now, Marxism (and anarchism) are the best theories we have for what's next. They're not static - it's our responsibility to improve them and grow closer to reality.

My larger point, though, is that I don't see much evidence Marx was right in his assessment of the world, nor what it should be. The historical profession has moved away from the traditional Marxist reading of the French Revolution, and actual attempts to implement Marxian ideology thus far have been utterly disastrous, even if they weren't "real" communism (though the fact that it could not become what it is "supposed" to be at the height of its global popularity and appeal is a damning fact, unto itself). Capitalism creates much harm, but it has also done much good for much of humanity, has shown itself to be adaptable to rapid change, and is compatible with human psychology in a way that the Marxist vision of the world has not shown itself to be.

 

[Foffy]

I don't think total destruction and collapse is absolutely necessary before radical systematic change happens, but I do agree that Bernie isn't gonna bring it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it does end up going the way of near-total societal collapse. There's no class consciousness. Reliance on social democrats is accepting a barely altered version of the status quo that is ultimately devastating, no matter how nice you try and make it look.

I don't see any way out beyond futility. I would respect reason, but it seems people are cultivated to be unreasonable, and assimilate to unaccountable views, social arrangements, and values. It doesn't mean "it's the dumbdumbs in the way of progress!" but more that we really settle for nonsense, and in doing so, all but promise the problems it produces continue.

You can see this as humanity's greatest failure, to live solely and surely for its symbolism. Isn't this why we still live for an economy, even if the models we have for one don't flow with the environment? Isn't this why we have to fight between "oh, making this better costs money and is a problem!" or even "well, what we have at least works!" as childish answers to keep our defective thing as it is? Because we already value the symbol over the actuality, any framework where this confusion happens, you're already peddling in bullshit. You have to force people by their wrists to see straight, or wait for the symbols to be seen as the ghosts they really are.

Dude, I would love to get high with you. You should watch Star Trek, one of the tv series. You'd probably like it.

I've never gotten high before, either. I'm quite an anomaly, in that sense.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

"Unelectable" again? Compared to Hillary right?

This has got to stop. I think a lot of people are nowhere near understanding the situation and are stuck with hurt feelings.

There are people in Bernie's camp who are frothing assholes and racists yes, but i would tell you that every camp has that sort of thought process in some form. Clinton's camp was like that in 08 as well, Hillary was, yes, with many of her ads.

Your not going to seriously tell me you believe every one of us are racists, including us blacks who support Bernie sanders, just because a lot of us didn't feel at the time that the accusations against him not talking about black rights enough to get the mike taken from him were fair right?

Regardless of what you want to say about that, his record IS consistent on racial equality in the senate and in his activities outside of the congress, long before people just started hearing about him this year.

I understand it may be patronizing to hear about 'marching with MLK', as if that is some sort of free pass, but had people not brought that up as if it explained everything, there would most likely be no controversy right now.

In general, white liberals don't get how black people think, even if they may think they do, and try to empathize a lot of the time, but Bernie Sanders isn't the one to get mad at
for that.

 

[Alucrid]

Berniestan sounds like a great place to put all the Bernie supports when he doesn't win the nomination. What country should we level to use as a starting point?

 

[rjinaz]

Berniestan sounds like a great place to put all the Bernie supports when he doesn't win the nomination. What country should we level to use as a starting point?

I'm cool with that. Make it an island please. Also Bernie has to live there to lead us all.

 

[Strangelove77]

Holy crap, this guy loves Bernie Sanders like J.R. loves Stone Cold.

 

[q_q]

You're saying that he didn't shift and then words later talk about how he shifted.

"They didn't lead to shifts though ... he just started to focus more on racial issues."

I'm highlighted that.

My recommendation would be to be more consistent with your rationalizing away Bernie's campaign changes as a result of his interactions with BLM

No he didn't. Reread what he said.

Gattsu said that Bernie shifted his policies and rhetoric on racial issues. He did not. He began to talk about racial issues more in response to the BLM protests, but he did not shift his policies or rhetoric. You're conflating his focusing more attention on certain issues with him shifting his stance on said issues. This is not a problem with my comprehension, rather a ploy by you to avoid the burden of proof for your claims.

I never said you were white. I was mocking what you said, which was quite literally that irrational blacks are stopping white people (The majority of Bernie's spotters) from advancing race issues in this country.

No I said that certain tactics do not advance issues the way their supporters think that they do. You are assuming that I only mean to defend white people, which also carries the implication that I'm biased in favor of whites somehow. This is all an attempt to deflect the focus away from any legitimate criticisms of the BLM movement.

 

[Damaniel]

"less than sensitive" is putting it kindly.

Pack of slavering assholes, yelling at black people how Bernie marched with MLK like it was some kind of trap card to get them to shut up about Black Lives Matter. Furious at the temerity of these Negroes demanding to have their issues treated with a modicum of respect by those running for the Democratic candidacy. Hearing "Earn Our Vote" as speaking out of turn. Expecting the black vote to fall in lockstep behind their candidate because HEY HE MARCHED WITH KING YOU KNOW and frankly, it's better to just vote how you're told because we know what's best for you. Mad because rallies about ye olde economy were occasionally interrupted by black ladies saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we stopped getting murdered in the street for a change?

Yeah, that so-called "meme" was a tidal wave of asshattery in 2015 directed at anyone with the gall to push back on Sanders' tone deaf insistence on pivoting to the economy whenever he was challenged on racial issues in America. Hell, Reddit was one of the better places to get a measured response from Sanders supporters. It was Shithead Central in here for ages, and that's just a small taste of the vitriol I saw directed by his supporters at BLM in general.

And the hilarious thing is that it's still happening.

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

Bingo.

I'd also like to add that I'm sick of Bernie's most vocal supporters throwing strong Progressive organizations under the bus the moment they support Hillary over Bernie. Going by the responses I've seen, unions representing 10M+ people, Planned Parenthood, renowned economists and a ton of strong Progressive Congresspeople and Senators are apparently all just far-right conservatives in all but name, useful idiots for the oligarchy. This is the same shit that the Ron Paul supporters did back in 2008/2012, with the exception that the candidate that the Berners are supporting is actually reasonably decent.

 

[Merc_]

No I said that certain tactics do not advance issues the way their supporters think that they do. You are assuming that I only mean to defend white people, which also carries the implication that I'm biased in favor of whites somehow. This is all an attempt to deflect the focus away from any legitimate criticisms of the BLM movement.

Eh, I'm not sure people affiliated with BLM should be the ones complaining about a rabid base of supporters.

Yes, very legitimate.

 

[jackissocool]

My larger point, though, is that I don't see much evidence Marx was right in his assessment of the world, nor what it should be. The historical profession has moved away from the traditional Marxist reading of the French Revolution, and actual attempts to implement Marxian ideology thus far have been utterly disastrous, even if they weren't "real" communism (though the fact that it could not become what it is "supposed" to be at the height of its global popularity and appeal is a damning fact, unto itself). Capitalism creates much harm, but it has also done much good for much of humanity, has shown itself to be adaptable to rapid change, and is compatible with human psychology in a way that the Marxist vision of the world has not shown itself to be.

In what way was Marx's assessment of the world incorrect? Certainly his critique of capitalism, the core of Marxist theory, still stands today. The labor theory of value, exploitation, wage labor, capitalism's cyclical nature of boom and bust, the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, and more are still extremely valid. And if you want to talk about how the academic world views him, he's considered literally the most influential thinker ever. And "utterly disastrous" is certainly an enormous exaggeration when describing previous high profile attempts to implement socialism. While the USSR and Maoist China had numerous issues, they were in every way vast improvements over the previous system in those countries. And the reason they didn't achieve communism (indisputable) or socialism (generally agreed upon) is because of a vast host of material conditions impeding them, the number one being western interference and imperialism.

As for your assessment of capitalism: Marxists would agree that capitalism has done much good compared to what came before. But they would also argue that much of what is attributed to capitalism is due to other factors, and that its harm is massively understated. "If someone starves to death under capitalism, it's their fault. If someone stubs their toe in Cuba, it's because of Communism", or so the saying goes. As far as being adaptable to rapid change: only insofar as to perpetuate itself, and not to better the lives of those living under it. And compatible with human psychology? That's just more 'human nature" nonsense. Capitalism is deeply destructive to the human psyche - look at the misery of most of the world! And Marxists don't advocate idealistic hand holding. They advocate people rising up and taking what is theirs from their oppressors and getting just rewards for their labor. Certainly more rewarding and compatible with human psychology than the inherent exploitation and alienation of capitalism.

No I said that certain tactics do not advance issues the way their supporters think that they do. You are assuming that I only mean to defend white people, which also carries the implication that I'm biased in favor of whites somehow. This is all an attempt to deflect the focus away from any legitimate criticisms of the BLM movement.

You never gave any criticisms of BLM other than "rabid". Nothing to deflect away from. If you have some I'd love to hear them. I have quite a few criticisms of BLM myself.

 

[q_q]

Yes, very legitimate.

Quote the context of the post, friend. I was making a point about double standards.

 

[Cagey]

Berniestan sounds like a great place to put all the Bernie supports when he doesn't win the nomination. What country should we level to use as a starting point?

Just send them to Portlandia.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

"less than sensitive" is putting it kindly.

Pack of slavering assholes, yelling at black people how Bernie marched with MLK like it was some kind of trap card to get them to shut up about Black Lives Matter. Furious at the temerity of these Negroes demanding to have their issues treated with a modicum of respect by those running for the Democratic candidacy. Hearing "Earn Our Vote" as speaking out of turn. Expecting the black vote to fall in lockstep behind their candidate because HEY HE MARCHED WITH KING YOU KNOW and frankly, it's better to just vote how you're told because we know what's best for you. Mad because rallies about ye olde economy were occasionally interrupted by black ladies saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we stopped getting murdered in the street for a change?

Yeah, that so-called "meme" was a tidal wave of asshattery in 2015 directed at anyone with the gall to push back on Sanders' tone deaf insistence on pivoting to the economy whenever he was challenged on racial issues in America. Hell, Reddit was one of the better places to get a measured response from Sanders supporters. It was Shithead Central in here for ages, and that's just a small taste of the vitriol I saw directed by his supporters at BLM in general.

And the hilarious thing is that it's still happening.

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

What a straight up ass whooping this post was.

 

[Fat4all]

No I said that certain tactics do not advance issues the way their supporters think that they do. You are assuming that I only mean to defend white people, which also carries the implication that I'm biased in favor of whites somehow. This is all an attempt to deflect the focus away from any legitimate criticisms of the BLM movement.

And you have yet to bring any up.

 

[JesseEwiak]

"less than sensitive" is putting it kindly.

Pack of slavering assholes, yelling at black people how Bernie marched with MLK like it was some kind of trap card to get them to shut up about Black Lives Matter. Furious at the temerity of these Negroes demanding to have their issues treated with a modicum of respect by those running for the Democratic candidacy. Hearing "Earn Our Vote" as speaking out of turn. Expecting the black vote to fall in lockstep behind their candidate because HEY HE MARCHED WITH KING YOU KNOW and frankly, it's better to just vote how you're told because we know what's best for you. Mad because rallies about ye olde economy were occasionally interrupted by black ladies saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we stopped getting murdered in the street for a change?

Yeah, that so-called "meme" was a tidal wave of asshattery in 2015 directed at anyone with the gall to push back on Sanders' tone deaf insistence on pivoting to the economy whenever he was challenged on racial issues in America. Hell, Reddit was one of the better places to get a measured response from Sanders supporters. It was Shithead Central in here for ages, and that's just a small taste of the vitriol I saw directed by his supporters at BLM in general.

And the hilarious thing is that it's still happening.

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

Boom goes the dynamite.

 

[HStallion]

Im on BLM's side in regards to crashing the rally. It had some real goals and real results toward those goals. But yeah, the "you're a racist if we even sense a hint of criticism toward BLM" witch hunt needs to GTFO. We can't pretend any organization is literally above reproach no matter how sympathetic their cause is.

I'm not talking about being nice to racists so that they won't be scared away from becoming decent human beings. I don't think BLM owes anyone anything or need to make themselves some sort of palatable representation of black people in the minds of white people so that they can earn respect they are entitled too. I don't actually have any criticisms that I know of when it comes to BLM. The fucking bullshit on his forum is what I'm talking about.

What I'm saying is that this verbal bullying and continual unsubstantiated lies (about Bernie supporters being generally or especially racist) need to fucking end because it is threadshitting.

I'll second this. I fully support BLM and really don't have any qualms about their methods, passion, goals and so forth but the constant smashing of heads together makes me wonder if some people are just looking for a fight and using truly important platforms as a launching point.

I mean Obama was making a big point about this in his state of the Union last night. I'm not saying love each other but damn people, take a breath and try and connect with people a bit and then try this conversation out and maybe not in a public place where passions, feelings etc. Can really get compounded and start to snowball out of control.

I'm fully aware I'll get shit for this post as well but send me a PM about and let's have a conversation even if it starts about sports, or anime or videogames. Plant that seed of understanding friends.

 

[rjinaz]

What a straight up ass whooping this post was.

Who's ass was whooped? It was in response to somebody asking why some Bernie supporters are considered racist. It was a good post don't get me wrong. But still, I mean I guess if you are a racist supporter in denial your ass is whooped. I'd like to think most Bernie supporters on GAF aren't anyway.

 

[Your Entertainer]

"less than sensitive" is putting it kindly.

Pack of slavering assholes, yelling at black people how Bernie marched with MLK like it was some kind of trap card to get them to shut up about Black Lives Matter. Furious at the temerity of these Negroes demanding to have their issues treated with a modicum of respect by those running for the Democratic candidacy. Hearing "Earn Our Vote" as speaking out of turn. Expecting the black vote to fall in lockstep behind their candidate because HEY HE MARCHED WITH KING YOU KNOW and frankly, it's better to just vote how you're told because we know what's best for you. Mad because rallies about ye olde economy were occasionally interrupted by black ladies saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we stopped getting murdered in the street for a change?

Yeah, that so-called "meme" was a tidal wave of asshattery in 2015 directed at anyone with the gall to push back on Sanders' tone deaf insistence on pivoting to the economy whenever he was challenged on racial issues in America. Hell, Reddit was one of the better places to get a measured response from Sanders supporters. It was Shithead Central in here for ages, and that's just a small taste of the vitriol I saw directed by his supporters at BLM in general.

And the hilarious thing is that it's still happening.

I have no real beef with Sanders other than that he's unelectable, but as far as the "you gonna feel the Bern? or vote for TRUMP/HILLARY" brigade? Launch the lot into the sun and call it a day

I don't think it's fair to say with any authority that he's "unelectable" at this point.

 

[kirblar]

I don't think it's fair to say with any authority that he's "unelectable" at this point.

It absolutely is.

One common theme among Bernie fans: they're not the ones directly hurt by GOP control.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Who's ass was whooped? It was in response to somebody asking why some Bernie supporters are considered racist. It was a good post don't get me wrong. But still, I mean I guess if you are a racist supporter in denial your ass is whooped. I'd like to think most Bernie supporters on GAF aren't anyway.

Those people + Bernie fans that were in denial of the racist undertones of their fellow supporters.

 

[Team Alucard]

It absolutely is.

One common theme among Bernie fans: they're not the ones directly hurt by GOP control.

Getting kinda sick of this bullshit

This doesn't look like the makings of a candidate who is a guarantee. Which candidate do you think those numbers belong too? Hint: its not Bernie Sanders.

A single poll that suggests the American people won't vote for a socialist is a death sentence but a massive wealth of data showing that they don't like and don't trust Hillary Clinton is handwaved as irrelevant and unimportant.

No candidate has ever won the general election with a negative 10 net favorability rating, but by all means, keep telling us that Hillary Clinton is our best chance.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Getting kinda sick of this bullshit

This doesn't look like the makings of a candidate who is a guarantee.

A single poll that suggests the American people won't vote for a socialist is a death sentence but a massive wealth of data showing that they don't like and don't trust Hillary Clinton is handwaved as irrelevant and unimportant.

No candidate has ever won the general election with a negative 10 net favorability rating, but by all means, keep telling us that Hillary Clinton is our best chance.

Ben Carson has the highest favorability numbers out of anyone running. Is he electable? What tripe.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Getting kinda sick of this bullshit

This doesn't look like the makings of a candidate who is a guarantee. Which candidate do you think those numbers belong too? Hint: its not Bernie Sanders.

A single poll that suggests the American people won't vote for a socialist is a death sentence but a massive wealth of data showing that they don't like and don't trust Hillary Clinton is handwaved as irrelevant and unimportant.

No candidate has ever won the general election with a negative 10 net favorability rating, but by all means, keep telling us that Hillary Clinton is our best chance.

This is a polarized nation. By Election Day, both nominees are likely to be underwater and who gets more of the base (and I mean the actual base of the party, not people on the Internet who think they're the base) out while not pissing off swing voters too much.

 

[Team Alucard]

This is a polarized nation. By Election Day, both nominees are likely to be underwater and who gets more of the base (and I mean the actual base of the party, not people on the Internet who think they're the base) out while not pissing off swing voters too much.

Obama's favorability was never that low. Not in 2008 or in 2012.

You guys are in denial about how many people don't like Hillary Clinton. You're in for a rude awakening come election day unless she lucks out and ends up running against Trump.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Obama's favorability was never that low. Not in 2008 or in 2012.

You guys are in denial about how many people don't like Hillary Clinton. You're in for a rude awakening come election day unless she lucks out and ends up running against Trump.

Shockingly, being attacked by the left and the right with no real way to fight back without looking back hurts your approval ratings. Get back to me after the DNC convention about her approval ratings after The Barack, DIamond Joe, and Slick Willy pump her up.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Obama's favorability was never that low. Not in 2008 or in 2012.

You guys are in denial about how many people don't like Hillary Clinton. You're in for a rude awakening come election day unless she lucks out and ends up running against Trump.

Most candidates have trash numbers right now. Carson was doing well until the media actually started scrutinizing him and he's going underwater too.

 

[opoth]

The Huffington Post is the Fox News of the left.

Maybe 10 years ago it was. Now it's become mostly a lifestyle and celebrity gossip site after being sold a few years ago. Try to keep up.

 

[danm999]

Maybe 10 years ago it was. Now it's become mostly a lifestyle and celebrity gossip site after being sold a few years ago. Try to keep up.

They even covered Trump in their entertainment section!

Boy that was probably an embarrassing one to walk back.

 

[SMattera]

In what way was Marx's assessment of the world incorrect?...The labor theory of value...still extremely valid.

Wat.

The labor theory of value was thrown and replaced by the subjective theory of value more than 100 years ago.

 

[Xe4]

Obama's favorability was never that low. Not in 2008 or in 2012.

You guys are in denial about how many people don't like Hillary Clinton. You're in for a rude awakening come election day unless she lucks out and ends up running against Trump.

A 51% unfavorability rating isn't bad, especially considering the amount Republicans have harassed her over the dumbest shit, and considering all the Bernie fans who see her as Satan incarnate. If anything kills her it's gonna be the far left not supporting her cause of "oligarchy, lol".

If Bernie were to win the nomination do you really think his favorability ratings will survive the onslaught of the much better funded Republicans? Bernie is popular now because either peoplease have heard very little or don't care.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

A 51% unfavorability rating isn't bad, especially considering the amount Republicans have harassed her over the dumbest shit, and considering all the Bernie fans who see her as Satan incarnate. If anything kills hER it's not gonna be the far left not supporting her cause of "oligarchy, lol".

If Bernie were to win the nomination do you really think his favorability ratings will survive the onslaught of the much better funded Republicans? Bernie is popular now because either peoplease have heard very little or don't care.

That's the thing, he's not even popular outside of the Democratic circle. His numbers are virtually split at around 40-40 with a large number of people having formed no opinion of him. If he were to be at 50 or above after being attacked as much as people like Obama and Clinton, then maybe he'd have a point.

 

[ZealousD]

Getting kinda sick of this bullshit

http://i.imgur.com/5Ik9qEb.png

This doesn't look like the makings of a candidate who is a guarantee. Which candidate do you think those numbers belong too? Hint: its not Bernie Sanders.

That's a very cute trick you did, chopping off the part before where her favorables were higher than her unfavorables. You cut it off precisely on April 2015 when the lines switched.

 

[ivysaur12]

Getting kinda sick of this bullshit

This doesn't look like the makings of a candidate who is a guarantee. Which candidate do you think those numbers belong too? Hint: its not Bernie Sanders.

A single poll that suggests the American people won't vote for a socialist is a death sentence but a massive wealth of data showing that they don't like and don't trust Hillary Clinton is handwaved as irrelevant and unimportant.

No candidate has ever won the general election with a negative 10 net favorability rating, but by all means, keep telling us that Hillary Clinton is our best chance.

You've posted this before, and if she's nominated, she'll get the normal convention bump due to a polarized electorate and be around 47/48 once the majority of Democrats who didn't vote for her in the primary vote for her in the general. Also, saying "no candidate has ever" is a very reductive way of making an argument.

My legitimate fear is that Bernie's numbers are only being propped up by the fact that he isn't being constantly attacked every single day from both the left and right. If he wins the nomination, can he handle the entire onslaught and barrage from the right?

I think both camps are hand waving their own candidates issues because, honestly, this is a pretty mediocre group for the Democrats. Not necessarily in policy, but in electoral vulnerabilities. (It's not a lot better on the Republican side).

 

[NullPointer]

How about letting people's votes determine who is electable?

Crazy idea, I know.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

How about letting people's votes determine who is electable?

Crazy idea, I know.

Ask Barry Goldwater how that turned out.

Or better yet, ask all the Republicans worried that Trump and Cruz is going to destroy their 2016 hopes. Who your party puts forth matters.

 

[Xe4]

That's the thing, he's not even popular outside of the Democratic circle. His numbers are virtually split at 33-33 with a large number of people having formed no opinion of him. If he were to be at 50 or above after being attacked as much as people like Obama and Clinton, then maybe he'd have a point.

Exactly. Hes simmilar to trump, not in ideas (I actually like a lot of his ideas) in that he has a support of a small section of the US populace that tends to fall to one side or other of the US spectrum. That means jack shit in the general, where a large number of people are independants or center left/center right and probaby wont vote for a socalist or racist (again not com paring the two, juse their favorability rstings among Americans). Bernie can win against Trump, he can win against Cruz (although they'd be closer than if Hillary ran) but he'd be slaughtered by Rubio.