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Better Call Saul S2 |OT| The Truth Is Just A Point Of View - Mondays 10/9c

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S

Spectral Glider

Member
Saty said:
It's not any form of a mistake. It's a huge one that goes against Mike's characterization as a cool, collected and experienced. I'm struggling to think how even a rookie would leave his captive in plain sight on the road if he wants to draw as little of attention possible. Especially so if the intent of the writers was to show the innocent's death spurring Mike to take down Hector. If that was such a big concern then Mike just didn't give enough thought to that part of his plan when we've known him to be the opposite of that.

If Mike's plan in the finale wasn't affected by that civilian's death then his decision is more egregious because he's purposefully stoking the fire and shaking the bee's nest. Killing Hector would have gotten him and his precious grand-daughter in deep shit. Mike out to know better than insist on taking on the Cartel because they threatened his family. The coast was already clear and he was no longer a concern for the Cartel.
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Mike got his ass killed because he hitched his wagon to Walt even though he knew he was a ticking time bomb. Mike is not this inhuman, infallible super antihero that you think he his. The writers have gone out of their way to humanize and explain Mike's motivations going back to seasons 4 and 5 of BB and even further expanded on him in season 1 of Saul.
 
C

CrunchyFrog

Member
riotous said:
Or it might be kept between Jimmy and Chuck; as many as theorized simply for leverage against Jimmy.
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Everything we've been shown of Chuck so far is that he operates entirely straight-laced; that's blackmail and Chuck knows better than anybody that trying to do so would implicate himself as much as it would Jimmy. No way he just sits on this.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
I really hope Veelk did not get banned for this thread. I mean, yeah, he was getting pretty close to ad hoc territory, and his responses to people were very, very hostile, but all he was doing was spouting logical fallacies and not listening to people.

But what do I know? I'm not a mod. Maybe he was threatening people in PM.

EDIT: oh, no, now I see it after reading the last page. I got to the point where he brought up how he took a creative writing class in college and then I knew exactly what was coming next.... like clockwork, insulting another users IQ and college education because he didn't agree with him about a TV show. lol
 
B

Bigfoot

Member
HP_Wuvcraft said:
I really hope Veelk did not get banned for this thread. I mean, yeah, he was getting pretty close to ad hoc territory, and his responses to people were very, very hostile, but all he was doing was spouting logical fallacies and not listening to people.

But what do I know? I'm not a mod. Maybe he was threatening people in PM.

EDIT: oh, no, now I see it after reading the last page. I got to the point where he brought up how he took a creative writing class in college and then I knew exactly what was coming next.... like clockwork, insulting another users IQ and college education because he didn't agree with him about a TV show. lol
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You never know what can cause a ban here so I've learned not to be surprised anymore. All three probably deserved it though as they were going back and forth a lot. I generally don't read Veelk's posts anyways... I prefer not to read essays on GAF.

Back to Saul... have the creators said how many seasons they want to do? I liked how they didn't drag out BB so hopefully they do the same again and end after 5 seasons or so.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Bigfoot said:
Back to Saul... have the creators said how many seasons they want to do? I liked how they didn't drag out BB so hopefully they do the same again and end after 5 seasons or so.
Click to expand...

Currently, it would take five years to catch up to BB, and VG has been quoted as saying he wants the series to go post-BB. The season opening flashbacks narrate that we'll either get there via the show or we'll get there via the flashforwards.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Spectral Glider said:
Mike got his ass killed because he hitched his wagon to Walt even though he knew he was a ticking time bomb. Mike is not this inhuman, infallible super antihero that you think he his. The writers have gone out of their way to humanize and explain Mike's motivations going back to seasons 4 and 5 of BB and even further expanded on him in season 1 of Saul.
Click to expand...

This is a great post and an important one to remember. For all the cold-blooded, no-half-measures guy we remember stories, Mike was still super flawed and had questionable judgment in BB. That they're humanizing him a bit more with rookie criminal mistakes here and there is ok with me.

That said, under no circumstance do I believe quiet, modest, cranky Mike Ehrmantraut would buy a round for the entire bar, ever. Unless he was trying to trap someone. No. I'm an apologist and The First Priest of 'Oh Yeah That's Intentional' but that just felt so consistently wrong with everything we've ever learned about the character.

M_Night said:
This show is so much more grounded than BB. I doubt we will get anything close to the Gus face moment in this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbIVV9cVveo

A good thing I would say. Loving the style and tone present in BCS.
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You're onto something, though I'm not sure I agree with your bottom line. At this point we have to know BCS is never going to have bodies disintegrating into pools of blood and guts, dudes getting sliced open from ear-to-ear, long montages of meth being made, jets colliding over major metropolitan areas, bombs taking out two major drug kingpins, and so on.

I thought we might see that stuff early on with the intro to Tuco and whatnot, but if that stuff happens (ever) in this prequel, I'll be shocked. And pleased. The spectacle of the thing in Breaking Bad was really, really fun and kept you on edge throughout the entire series. Yes BCS is a 'slow burn' which we all say a lot, but lord this is sloooooooooooooooooooooow burn.

I love this show. I defend it throughout this thread. It's slow. It is undoubtedly disappointing if you were expecting Breaking Bad, the prequel. The show clearly teased a big THING happening in the finale of season 2 and it didn't happen. I'm ok with it, but it's 100% ok to think it's not as good as it could be.
 
R

ruxtpin

Banned
Holy shit. Odenkirk plays Slippin' Jimmy on an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond! Been binge watching since I found out Doris Roberts passed.

Go to Season 5 Episode 20, 2 minutes in... lol
 
S

Spectral Glider

Member
ruxtpin said:
Holy shit. Odenkirk plays Slippin' Jimmy on an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond! Been binge watching since I found out Doris Roberts passed.

Go to Season 5 Episode 20, 2 minutes in... lol
Click to expand...

I liked his little struggling doctor bit on Seinfeld, along with the BB cast members that also made appearances on the sitcom.

Seinfeld to Breaking Bad - The Actors That Were in Both Shows

PantherLotus said:
That said, under no circumstance do I believe quiet, modest, cranky Mike Ehrmantraut would buy a round for the entire bar, ever. Unless he was trying to trap someone. No. I'm an apologist and The First Priest of 'Oh Yeah That's Intentional' but that just felt so consistently wrong with everything we've ever learned about the character.
Click to expand...

I'd forgotten about that. Not sure what they were going for with that, if it was supposed to be some kind of comic relief or what.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
The Second Spitter said:
Errrrr...........none? The purpose of TV is not establish realistic characters but the show that came close was The Wire between seasons 1-4. Season 5, regrettably went into the realm of BB unbelievability.
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I didn't say realistic, I said believable. Two different things. And well, to say "none" doesn't mean much because there's always a baseline. By TV standards, BB's characters are believable, more so than, say, Skeletor or a typical children's cartoon character.
 
T

Triggerhappytel

Member
Bombasador said:
He detests his brother's profession because he didn't go to law school like the rest of them

Disagree. Jimmy has always taken the shortest path and expects to reap the same rewards and be treated as a peer by people who have dedicated their lives to, in this case, the law. He went to "Devry" while everyone else graduated "MIT" and he just expects the same respect and and "out the gate" opportunities.

he lied about the death of their mother out of petty jealousy that she asked for Jimmy instead of him

Disagree. This goes beyond jealousy.. He resents Jimmy and firmly feels he doesn't deserve to know. Chuck already stated he blamed the death of his father on Jimmy and just before her death, mentions how his mother and everyone in the fam were always cleaning up after him at the expense of their own happiness.

he won't allow Jimmy to work at HHM because he's ashamed of him and thinks he's ruining the McGill family name.

Disagree. Chuck knows Jimmy will cut corners and threaten both the McGill name and the integrity of HHM. He's absolutely right.
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Jimmy earned his stripes and qualified as a lawyer. It doesn't matter if he went to MIT or night school or did an online course - he put in the work and got the qualification. That Chuck looks down his nose because Jimmy earned his qualification this way and didn't go to a prestigious law school is incredibly petty. Particularly because Jimmy wanted to become a lawyer to make his brother proud. And what's more, doesn't Kim also get her qualification the same way while she's working in the post room? She certainly mentions to Chuck that she started at HHM working in the post room. So that would be doubly hypocritical if Kim and Jimmy qualified via the same means, when Chuck has a lot of respect for Kim as a professional while he looks down on Jimmy's career. I'm pretty sure he openly tells Howard not to hire Jimmy, but my memory of earlier in the season is a bit fuzzy.

I think the situation with their mother is a lot more complex and I don't think Chuck is entirely to blame for what he did, as he blames Jimmy for his father passing and had obviously harboured decades of resentment for his brother by that point.

QuicheFontaine said:
The show is great precisely because it's NOT this black and white. There's elements of truth to what you say, but the characters feel 'realistic' and the storylines are satisfying because it's not clear cut that Chuck is a villain and Jimmy has a heart of goal. Everyone has reasons for what they do in this show.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. The character development and motivations are superb, and pretty much everyone has moral grey areas. It's incredibly well-written and I like all characters to varying degrees (except Hector & co).
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I think this whole Jimmy vs. Chuck dichotomy is much simpler to resolve that some people are making it out to be.

Jimmy:
Doesn't care (much) about the law
Loves his brother despite his many flaws
Is generally a emphatic person who cares about people (which is why he feels like shit after fucking over his brother)


Chuck:
Is all about the law
Holds inmense resentment towards his brother and is ashamed of him
Is all about the law

We know that Jimmy turns into a darker character later on, but right I'm feeling quite comfortable in the Fuck Chuck train as of now.
 
D

Dash_Riprock

Member
Funky Papa said:
I think this whole Jimmy vs. Chuck dichotomy is much simpler to resolve that some people are making it out to be.

Jimmy:
Doesn't care (much) about the law
Loves his brother despite his many flaws
Is generally a emphatic person who cares about people (which is why he feels like shit after fucking over his brother)


Chuck:
Is all about the law
Holds inmense resentment towards his brother and is ashamed of him
Is all about the law

We know that Jimmy turns into a darker character later on, but right I'm feeling quite comfortable in the Fuck Chuck train as of now.
Click to expand...

I think Chuck is supposed to have Narcissistic personality disorder. His smug feelings of superiority because of his adherence to "the law", extreme enviousness towards his brother's people skills, condescending way he speaks to everyone coupled with his constant need for attention with his psychological disorder all point to it.
 
S

Saty

Member
RecRoulette said:
He left his captive in plain sight because he thought someone would see it and just call the cops instead of getting involved, eventually leading the cops towards Hector's operation.

Mike is experienced with a lot of skills but he leaves too many things to chance, and really, you could argue that his character always did that, even through breaking bad.
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I've been over this before. First, there hasn't been any agreement between posters about why Mike left the driver how he did or what he wanted to accomplish by doing that.

Secondly, assuming Mike wanted the scene to grab the police's attention, a simple anonymous tip would have sufficed. If he also cared a lot about not potentially hurting bystanders then he ought to have realized he runs that risk by leaving a visibly tied person squirming alongside the road. There are no two ways around it. If the scene is enough to have someone driving-by to call the police then it also may compel one of those people to stop and help the fellow that is so forcibly tied. So if that was Mike's utmost concern he should have just shoved the driver in the back of the truck.

Spectral Glider said:
Mike got his ass killed because he hitched his wagon to Walt even though he knew he was a ticking time bomb. Mike is not this inhuman, infallible super antihero that you think he his. The writers have gone out of their way to humanize and explain Mike's motivations going back to seasons 4 and 5 of BB and even further expanded on him in season 1 of Saul.
Click to expand...
Admittedly, i don't remember the details of that situation i BB so i can't comment about it.

I don't expect Mike not to make any mistake. I expect him not making giant mistakes that are extremely not believable considering how he was portrayed thus far. Mike's craftiness and attention to detail is pretty high. I for one wouldn't have even thought of doing that doormat detection system he did earlier the season. If he didn't and i would have called him out about it, you would have responded the same about him not being 'infallible superhero'.
I can't reconcile Mike's keen awareness for doing something like that with how he dropped the ball with leaving the driver out in the open. And i can't reconcile this Mike for the Mike that decides killing Hector is the best course of action.

I would like you to walk me through Mike's train of thought for deciding to do that, preferably in a manner that's compatible with how we knew Mike to be these two seasons.
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
Funky Papa said:
I think this whole Jimmy vs. Chuck dichotomy is much simpler to resolve that some people are making it out to be.

Jimmy:
Doesn't care (much) about the law
Loves his brother despite his many flaws
Is generally a emphatic person who cares about people (which is why he feels like shit after fucking over his brother)


Chuck:
Is all about the law
Holds inmense resentment towards his brother and is ashamed of him
Is all about the law

We know that Jimmy turns into a darker character later on, but right I'm feeling quite comfortable in the Fuck Chuck train as of now.
Click to expand...

I mean, yeah all those bullet points are true, but with respect to the bolded don't you think the show has gone to great lengths (via exposition in dialogue and even flashbacks) to show the why behind that? Chuck is a guy in his late fifties who has been literally picking up after his little brother his whole life.

He's also a guy who has been a huge success - building a very successful law firm, having a beautiful cellist wife - and now he's lost everything. He can't work, he's alone in his tinfoil-lined house in the dark.

Yes he's the villain, but I can't say Fuck Chuck. I feel for the guy.
 
S

Syder

Member
Jesus Christ, just read through the last couple of pages of this thread. My head was in my hands by the end.

Xw3eY1C.gif
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Finally got caught up with Episode 10 last night. I was impressed how they managed to make an episode where so much time is spent looking at a gun and down crosshairs with no gun(s) being fired not actually be annoying as it hints at further character development for the Mike side of BCS which I feel Season 2 was distinctly lacking. I do agree with some sentiments that Chuck's actions in recording the conversation at the end seemed in character but out of style for this show. It was a bit soap opera-y.
 
S

SwolBro

Banned
finished the season. it was excellent and i'm honestly liking this show better than the first two seasons of breaking bad.

i love how grounded this show is and how it really takes it's time with developing the characters.
 
M

maxcriden

Member
I'm thinking of what kind of character arc Fring could get over the course of the remaining seasons of BCS. I'm wondering in fact if given his previous romantic interests, and the lack of any for a certain grizzled ex-cop protag, we might see a fling between the two earlier in their relationship....
 
A

Amgash

Banned
maxcriden said:
I'm thinking of what kind of character arc Fring could get over the course of the remaining seasons of BCS. I'm wondering in fact if given his previous romantic interests, and the lack of any for a certain grizzled ex-cop protag, we might see a fling between the two earlier in their relationship....
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? Am I missing something?
 
N

Niraj

I shot people I like more for less.
maxcriden said:
I'm thinking of what kind of character arc Fring could get over the course of the remaining seasons of BCS. I'm wondering in fact if given his previous romantic interests, and the lack of any for a certain grizzled ex-cop protag, we might see a fling between the two earlier in their relationship....
Click to expand...

We just saw Mike flirting with the waitress at the diner.
 
M

MegaManTrigger

Banned
HP_Wuvcraft said:
Currently, it would take five years to catch up to BB, and VG has been quoted as saying he wants the series to go post-BB. The season opening flashbacks narrate that we'll either get there via the show or we'll get there via the flashforwards.
Click to expand...

I wonder how far post-BB they'd go? I can't imagine there's much to do. But the flashfoward scene in the first episode of the 2nd season may hint at Slippin' Jimmy coming out to play after being domesticated as a Cinnabon manager.
 
J

JonCha

Member
Given that know how Jimmy ends up I'm interested to see how his relationship with Kim deteriorates and how he gets out of this dispute with his brother (that is if we're assuming he doesn't get convicted).

That said, the moment where he seemed to be messing up the job offer from Davis & Main was super frustrating to watch for me. Kim's right; Jimmy is a good lawyer, but he seems to find it really hard to do things that aren't towing the line between what's legal and illegal.

I also often despise Chuck and feel sorry for him. His hatred for his brother may be justifiable to some degree, but the way he goes out of his way to try and hinder his progress makes him seem like the 'villain' sometimes. The way he tried to keep Mesa Verde away from Kim (and Jimmy)? He didn't have to do that. Kim's criticisms of Chuck in S2 visibly hurt him.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
I'm no lawyer, but..

Doesn't Chuck still have nothing substantial on Jimmy? He even said himself that it's possible he was just telling him what he needed to hear so he (Chuck) wouldn't throw his life away. He pretty much just handed this opportunity to Jimmy on tape.

Chuck is fucking crazy. Almost nothing he says without hard evidence won't ever hold up in court in order to get Jimmy disbarred. The dude lives in a tin foil house for Christ's sake (though I'm sure most of what we saw in the finale was a ploy).

All Jimmy has to do is claim the clerk was most likely bribed by an insane Chuck and he's off the hook. One witness and no evidence.
 
T

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
masud said:
It think it was said earlier in the thread that it's not. And really the fact that Chuck did it should be enough evidence that it's not because he would certainly know.
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Didn't see it earlier in the thread. And I'm sure Chuck would know, doesn't mean he wouldn't still do it for purposes other than to be used in a court of law. Or is it completely illegal to even do it?
 
P

PHOENIXZERO

Member
After thinking Kim could die, I'm now starting to think it could be Chuck who eventually offs himself if/when Jimmy beats him and takes pretty much the only thing he has left away from him.
 
A

Amgash

Banned
maxcriden said:
I'm saying if they want to deepen Gus's character arc, there is the possibility for him to become involved with the protagonist of one half of the show.
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Yeah i got that part but what makes you believe both Gus and Mike were gay? Breaking Bad never implied something like this.
 
M

maxcriden

Member
Niraj said:
I never said it did. You said "the lack of any [romantic interests]," so I felt it merited mentioning.
Click to expand...

Oh, gotcha, sorry. I really was saying all this with tongue firmly in cheek, regardless. :)

Amgash said:
Yeah i got that part but what makes you believe both Gus and Mike were gay? Breaking Bad never implied something like this.
Click to expand...

About Mike, I was joshing. But I believe popular fan belief and I want to say Esposito himself, said Gus is gay.
 
M

MegaManTrigger

Banned
Frost_Ace said:
Gus was clearly gay. Rewatch the flashback where Hector kills his partner. It's all there.
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I don't know about clear. But you can react that way without having to be gay. Especially if it's a close friend. Not trying to douse the homosexuality theory, but it's worth mentioning that Gus's sexuality is shrouded in ambiguity.

He mentions kids in one of the BB episodes (again, doesn't mean he's heterosexual, but we don't know what type of family he has either let alone if he's lying about family to keep a clandestine identity intact), and he gives Walter heteronormative ideas about what it means to be a man. In fact, even the most clear evidence, being when Hector made kissy faces and comments about Gus liking his dick could be treated as either Hector knowing Gus's sexuality, or being the tough guy way to insult Gus and Max's manhood.
 
I

icespide

Banned
my wife and I are only currently on episode 4 of this season but can someone spoil me, is Gus actually in the show this season or just alluded to?
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Frost_Ace said:
Gus was clearly gay. Rewatch the flashback where Hector kills his partner. It's all there.
Click to expand...

Eh.

It could go either way.

The thing about Gus is that he was an incredibly passionate and human man. He wasn't just a stone cold drug kingpin.

Funky Papa said:
I think this whole Jimmy vs. Chuck dichotomy is much simpler to resolve that some people are making it out to be.

Jimmy:
Doesn't care (much) about the law
Loves his brother despite his many flaws
Is generally a emphatic person who cares about people (which is why he feels like shit after fucking over his brother)


Chuck:
Is all about the law
Holds inmense resentment towards his brother and is ashamed of him
Is all about the law

We know that Jimmy turns into a darker character later on, but right I'm feeling quite comfortable in the Fuck Chuck train as of now.
Click to expand...

Regardless of when Jimmy becomes Saul (and honestly, Saul was a sack of shit but we never saw that much of him), Chuck will always be an asshole. I know that a lot of people here like to exonerate Chuck because Jimmy has a very fucked up moral compass, but that does not excuse his shitty behavior. It's ironic that the people that bash Skylar for "being weak" are the same people defending Chuck for "being strong".
 
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