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[Ponn]

I don't think Metallica sold out because of Load/reload. I think that was the music they wanted to make. They were getting older, having families and shit, they weren't the angry, young broke musicians anymore. All those people who called them sellouts cause they cut their hair are losers. It was St. Anger, where they tried to fake it, that propelled them into sellout status.

The haircutting had to do with the time, especially the much different album they were coming out with. Everyone cutting there hair looking like all the new bands. It was like an entirely different band then Metallica and it was too similar to the new sound coming out. Too alot of old school Metallica fans that seems like selling out.

 

[etiolate]

Sugar Ray, they turned into the Back Street Boys.

So true.

And

 

[Worm_Buffet]

Definition of 'pretentious' according to dictionary.com

Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.

How is that something positive? In any way, don't get caught up on one word in my post. And for the love of god, I'm not a Radiohead-hater! I love Radiohead. I'm wearing a freakin' Radiohead T-Shirt as we speak and my nickname is a Radiohead reference.

And to Diablos, how does your examples disprove them of ever being slightly pretentious about something ever?

 

[fallout]

Load was so a stab at the mid 90s alternative thing.

I disagree, but that ain't goin anywhere.

You're quite naive then. Ever heard of a little bald guy named Moby? He slaves in the studio for months on end to create his dull, generic electronica which he can then lisence to corporations for use in their commercials and get filthy fucking rich.

I wondered when someone would bring up Moby. Never bought one of his albums, don't really cared for the music. But all that aside, when was the last time Metallica put a song in a commercial?

Which is why I didn't say they sold out at that point.. I said "some would argue that.."

Hm, some form of agreement there.

Ah.. it doesn't make them sellouts... right.. turning their backs on their fucking FANS, that doesn't make them sellouts. Metallica's whole status is owed to home taping, passing on of bootlegs of Kill Em All, etc. (and yes, at one point with quite a few vinyl records came a post witch said "HOME TAPING IS KILLING THE MUSIC INDUSTRY".. right). for them to turn around and be so adamantly against it...

You've gotta start somewhere and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to be paid for your work. Any upstart business offers incentives and the music industry is a business. People gotta eat. Sure, some people eat more than others, but all I can say to that is: "Welcome to fucking capitalism."

And as I said before, they were clearly going against the popular ideal there.

threatening to sue their own fans, when they're exteremly wealthy men...

You know, I've heard this countless times, but I've never seen anyone back it up with any form of link, quote, etc. Maybe it happened, and if it did, I'd call them assholes, but I still don't see how that has anything to do with selling out.

You don't, as that doesn't change anything at all. Pretty much everyone endorses live bootlegs.

Hm ... well maybe we should call them sellouts for buying into that trend.

You shouldn't make music for the sole reason of "making money." And I onbiously meant to say "against the morals... for the sake of making a few bucks, etc."

I think you missed my point. You see the word "money" and your eyes glow red. Just sit back, relax, and read this carefully.

I said counterproductive. Metallica has clearly done some very unpopular things for their image and I would say, with the knowledge that said things would affect their image in such a way. Christ ... most people got into Metallica because they were rebellious ... then they do something rebellious and people can't take it.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

:lol I can't even begin to understand the whole sellout thing in music. Just doesn't make any sense to me..

So what if you want to make money? If you didn't, you wouldn't be making any more music, most likely..

So what if your sound changes throughout your musical career? Hmm.. that's strange... typically music is driven by emotion and things going on the in the world.. and I know for certain that those things change throughout time.. so why shouldn't a band's music? (Look at Alanis Morrisette's stuff.. from very angry to not really angry anymore.. and I have no problem with that.. still great stuff)..

I think perhaps the only way not to become a sellout is to:


A) Suck from the get-go.

B) Be a local garage band and not gain any popularity at all, except perhaps for about 25 loyal fans who will buy your album, but gain any more fans and you're f'ed.


:lol

 

[jett]

I simply don't agree about Metallica selling out. Like what was said about One...that video was amazing and didn't betray the hate of obvious lip synching that the band had. Just because Lars thinks one way then changes his mind later doesn't mean that he's a sellout it means he changed his mind.

Most people bitched about Bob Rock on the Black Album and its 4 minute song structures with no instrumentals though that record is probably one of the best metal records ever put together.

People bitched about Load and Reload being a more alt rock sounding record but the guys were in their late 30s at that point and no one's tastes stay the same from youth to that age and find me a musician who doesn't use outside influences, modern sounds and techniques to create.

And what the hell is wrong with standing up against Napster? If people were trying to steal my shit I wouldn't let them either.

For me, the black album was a piece of shit and the beginning of the end for Metallica. I really shouldn't bother, I mean, you are freaking defending Load and Reload. Load had a fucking pseudo-country song in it for fuck's sake. If only Cliff hadn't died, we'd be looking at a different Metallica today(or maybe even better, there'd be no Metallica today).

edit: maybe calling the black album shit is too much, but that's where the change began. It's completely different from the other 4(you know, the good ones).

 

[Warm Machine]

For me, the black album was a piece of shit and the beginning of the end for Metallica. I really shouldn't bother, I mean, you are freaking defending Load and Reload. Load had a fucking pseudo-country song in it for fuck's sake. If only Cliff hadn't died, we'd be looking at a different Metallica today(or maybe even better, there'd be no Metallica today).

And you're not listening to the record because it has a country sounding song on the not because the song isn't good. It also has a blues inspired song with Ronnie. The music is not to your definition of what Metallica is and I'm afriad the only people who can make that definition is Metallica themselves. Besides, Cliff would have been the first to branch out. The guy loved classical music and shit from all over.

 

[pnjtony]

Yeah, I remember when Metallica came out with Load and I though...wow, is this new Soundgarden? HAHAHAHA


Whoever mentioned Beck in the first page had it spot on. That's a perfect example of a sellout. I mean during One Foot In the Grave he was extremely anti-MTV then in the late 90's he was almost Mr. MTV

I'd also add Rancid to this list big time.

 

[Ponn]

I'm getting a feeling a couple people posting here are either from Metallica or work for them in some way.

 

[fallout]

I'm getting a feeling a couple people posting here are either from Metallica or work for them in some way.

Right ... because we're not calling them sellouts. Nobody's telling (or even asking) you to buy a Metallica album. Lord knows it's going to take a lot before I get suckered into that again.

You really have missed the entire argument. Most seem to have. Just because the music is shit doesn't mean the band sold out. It just means that the band got shitty. It's sad that people attack someone's integrity when they do something they don't like or appreciate.

 

[Ponn]

Right ... because we're not calling them sellouts. Nobody's telling (or even asking) you to buy a Metallica album. Lord knows it's going to take a lot before I get suckered into that again.

You really have missed the entire argument. Most seem to have. Just because the music is shit doesn't mean the band sold out. It just means that the band got shitty. It's sad that people attack someone's integrity when they do something they don't like or appreciate.

And jumping all over everyones opinion on a band in an opinion thread and saying they don't comprehend the english language is better? There has been plenty of evidence to them being sellouts to fans but you continue to fight the good fight for them for whatever reason you have. And for the record, I never said their new music was shit, I said crap.

 

[fallout]

And jumping all over everyones opinion on a band in an opinion thread and saying they don't comprehend the english language is better? There has been plenty of evidence to them being sellouts to fans but you continue to fight the good fight for them for whatever reason you have. And for the record, I never said their new music was shit, I said crap.

How the hell can you have an opinion of a band being selling out or not? That's like saying I have the opinion that a giraffe is an eggplant.

I'm fighting the good fight of trying to abolish a lame-ass, overused term that only ever gets used when people need to validate their musical tastes. If you look at my earlier posts, they had nothing to do with Metallica.

 

[hXc_thugg]

I'd also add Rancid to this list big time.

What did they do? I haven't been into the punk scene for about 3 or 4 years, so I think I might have missed them selling out.

 

[Tarazet]

I can't believe no one has mentioned Green Day yet. Maybe because it was too obvious.

"I walk a lonely road.."

no you fucking don't, you douche.

 

[sans_pants]

axl rose

 

[sans_pants]

I can't believe no one has mentioned Green Day yet. Maybe because it was too obvious.

"I walk a lonely road.."

no you fucking don't, you douche.

leave the sad hippy alone

 

[sans_pants]

What did they do? I haven't been into the punk scene for about 3 or 4 years, so I think I might have missed them selling out.

i dunno, there most recent cd was pretty much crap, and that dude did that video with good charlotte

 

[Matlock]

axl rose

Axl is untouchable, no matter how insane and/or unapproachable he becomes.

 

[hXc_thugg]

i dunno, there most recent cd was pretty much crap, and that dude did that video with good charlotte

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Tim Armstrong, you're not a thug at all.

 

[xsarien]

I can't believe no one has mentioned Green Day yet. Maybe because it was too obvious.

"I walk a lonely road.."

no you fucking don't, you douche.

Success is not indicative of selling out.

 

[sans_pants]

Axl is untouchable, no matter how insane and/or unapproachable he becomes.

i love axl and guns n' roses, but he fucked that band something fierce

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Win.

The space between... Your ears? /shrug

 

[arter_2]

rolling stones

 

[GhaleonEB]

Yeah, I remember when Metallica came out with Load and I though...wow, is this new Soundgarden? HAHAHAHA


Whoever mentioned Beck in the first page had it spot on. That's a perfect example of a sellout. I mean during One Foot In the Grave he was extremely anti-MTV then in the late 90's he was almost Mr. MTV

I'd also add Rancid to this list big time.

What is kind of annoying about your argument, and others, is that changing your sound = sellout. I don't see how this is the case. Take Bob Dylan, who has gone from deep folk roots to rock'n roll and back a few times. Take U2, who have experimented in all kinds of music genres (rock, gospel, blues, dance, electronica). Not all of their fans liked it, but they did it because that was what they needed to do to survive as musicians - you can't do the same thing over and over without falling into self-parody. Witness the Rolling Stones and Aerosmith.

 

[etiolate]

I don't know how you can defend Metalicash from being a sellout. They were suing makeup companies for having silver colored lipstick for fucks sake. They have been clearly more focused on protecting their money than making music.

 

[Tedesco!]

AEROSMITH.

Exactly.

 

[Daigoro]

this thread was well over when mrping posted.

there was no reason to read, or post on.

 

[Diablos]

Axl is untouchable, no matter how insane and/or unapproachable he becomes.

And what has Axl done since the (original) band's breakup? Anything worth nothing? No.
His attempt at reforming GnR was beyond pathetic.

 

[fallout]

I don't know how you can defend Metalicash from being a sellout. They were suing makeup companies for having silver colored lipstick for fucks sake. They have been clearly more focused on protecting their money than making music.

Wow ... disinformation time, lol. It wasn't because it was silver, it was because they were calling it Metallica. Taking a relatively popular band's name and using it in a commercial product is kind of asking for it. To not be a sellout are you expected to not trademark your name?

Should probably ask the good people over at Mozilla about that one.

 

[White Man]

Selling out, in the post-77 meaning of the word, is taking knowing initiative in changing your sound in order to reach a wider audience. This could either be done by altering the band's sound to guarantee MTV or radio play or hiring a big name producer whose name has been attached to other successful acts. Selling out is usually preceded by some sort of minor success that the band had not achieved before. Signing to a bigger label is not necessarily a sign that a band is selling out, although it can be an indicator if such an action is contrary to things the band has said before.

Bands like Good Charlotte are not sell outs because they've not altered their sound to achieve bigger success. They've never had to. They may be radio and record company shills that play the lowest common denominator in pop music, but they're not sellouts.

Metallica, though. . .fuck, they sold out twice. I don't know if I could name another band that's done that.

 

[VistraNorrez]

There are musicians (talented) who make music for fun and perform it likewise.

Do you realize making music for fun is still sincere music?

It doesn't have to be soul inspiring music to be sincere.

 

[Spainkiller]

Exactly. That attitude pisses me off no end.

 

[Shazapp]

I'm hardly an expert on KISS, but haven't they been doing that practically since their inception?

Not really. At the beginning they were a simplistic, but heavy, band with a gimmick (the costumes and make-up). The merchandising didn't really start until their 6th album (Love Gun), which came with an insert for all of their merchandise as well as a paper pop gun. After that, they switched gears and became a kiddie/pop band for awhile, making more money on their merchandise than their music.

When they "came back" in the early 1980s, they focused more on the music but still had a bit of merchandising going on. When the reunion occurred in 1996, they went APE-SHIT with the merchandising, spawning such crap as the KISS bowling ball and KISS coffin.

I was a big fan until they started putting people on stage dressed in the old members costumes and make-up. That's just too much bullshit from a band that's doled out a lot of bullshit in their career.

My vote definitely goes to KISS.

 

[MC Safety]

Selling out, in the post-77 meaning of the word, is taking knowing initiative in changing your sound in order to reach a wider audience. This could either be done by altering the band's sound to guarantee MTV or radio play or hiring a big name producer whose name has been attached to other successful acts. Selling out is usually preceded by some sort of minor success that the band had not achieved before. Signing to a bigger label is not necessarily a sign that a band is selling out, although it can be an indicator if such an action is contrary to things the band has said before.

Bands like Good Charlotte are not sell outs because they've not altered their sound to achieve bigger success. They've never had to. They may be radio and record company shills that play the lowest common denominator in pop music, but they're not sellouts.

Metallica, though. . .fuck, they sold out twice. I don't know if I could name another band that's done that.

I disagree. There's a difference between a change (or alteration) in style and selling out.

As I've said, The Who have sold out. Their songs of youthful rebellion are now used to promote SUVs and imported beer. Whenever the lead singer needs to pay off another mortgage, the remaining members dust themselves off and go out on another "farewell tour."

Bands who modify their sound for whatever reason may be doing it for economic reasons, but sometimes it's a genuine attempt to do something new. Neil Young did it a bunch of times, each attempt meeting with varying degrees of success. Perhaps the greatest sea change may be seen in Billy Joel, who went from being a balladeer to a more mainstream singer -- and then promptly disappeared from view.

Since fans are used to the tried and true, any deviation from the plan is naturally looked upon with suspicion.

 

[Jewbacca]

 

[xsarien]

I don't think you grasp the meaning of "sellout."

 

[Jewbacca]

No, I dont grasp your meaning of sellout. Thanks for your concern.

 

[Shinobi]

:lol I can't even begin to understand the whole sellout thing in music. Just doesn't make any sense to me..

So what if you want to make money? If you didn't, you wouldn't be making any more music, most likely..

So what if your sound changes throughout your musical career? Hmm.. that's strange... typically music is driven by emotion and things going on the in the world.. and I know for certain that those things change throughout time.. so why shouldn't a band's music? (Look at Alanis Morrisette's stuff.. from very angry to not really angry anymore.. and I have no problem with that.. still great stuff)..

I think perhaps the only way not to become a sellout is to:


A) Suck from the get-go.

B) Be a local garage band and not gain any popularity at all, except perhaps for about 25 loyal fans who will buy your album, but gain any more fans and you're f'ed.


:lol

:lol That's the long and the short of it...

Shinobi, for everything you hate, you really do get it right a lot of the time.

:lol People confuse my heavy language and strong tone for hating everything. It's simply the only way to make people listen on a forum these days.

And look at the arguing in this thread...people can't even agree with what a sellout is, yet they feel they can label one. It's absolutely priceless.

I mean, look at Bono...for all the talk of him selling out, name ANYONE who's done more to try to alleviate the debt in African countries then him. Unless you know the people who work at Amnestiy, I doubt you could. But hey, I guess that makes him a sellout right? Heh, let me know what you're doing to improve the world in between your Halo frag parties and pizza snacks bucko.

And yeah, the Rolling Stones are sellouts...even at their advanced ages, they're still selling out arenas and stadiums. :lol The most recent Stones joint I hear on the radio these days is Start Me Up, and that's over 20 years old. Mick Jaggar's already on record in saying that he wants to keep doing this until people quit buying tickets or until he croaks, and who are we to say he can't? Or how about the upcoming Pink Floyd reunion, one they said would never happen...are they now sellouts?

Hell, I guess Christian Bale is a sellout now because he went from doing small time, character-based movies to dressing up in a bat suit in a big budget popcorn flick. :lol I mean really, what's the difference here? How is it that actors can do any role they want, but musicians have to stick to something that might not generate as much income as another musical style without being ridiculed for it? Someone explain the logic to me, cause I'd love to know.

The term is simply ridiculous. Musicians who do this thing for a career do so to make money. The way some people talk, the very act of making a cent for the music that you create makes you a sellout. It's immature thinking beyond all reason.

This thread has cracked me up though...so even though I think the whole discussion is bullshit, at least it's entertaining bullshit.

I can't believe no one has mentioned Green Day yet. Maybe because it was too obvious.

"I walk a lonely road.."

no you fucking don't, you douche.

:lol

 

[Fifty]

Ah Shinobi, you rock (no pun intended)

 

[Warm Machine]

Shinobi sold out. He used to only post in Sega car racing threads on the game forum but now he is here on the OT forum. Last time I listen to that guy!

 

[etiolate]

Wow ... disinformation time, lol. It wasn't because it was silver, it was because they were calling it Metallica. Taking a relatively popular band's name and using it in a commercial product is kind of asking for it. To not be a sellout are you expected to not trademark your name?

Should probably ask the good people over at Mozilla about that one.

Yes, I know the named the lipstick metallica, but that doesn't make it any less silly. That's the point. They care more about some lipstick than they do their fans or the music. When you do all the money inspired actions that Metallica was doing and then follow it up with St. Anger... you are proclaiming, no, garguantianly shouting what your priorities are. I mean shit, do they think that metal isn't silver colored?

I've liked many bands that become popular and I still like them after they get to a mainstream audience, but what Metallica did is on another level. Old Metallica and modern Metallica are like two different entities. The fans are even different.

 

[LakeEarth]

Someone doesn't understand the concept of copyright infraction.

Besides, I doubt telling the studio lawyers to sue didn't take too much time off of their songwriting.

 

[fallout]

Yes, I know the named the lipstick metallica, but that doesn't make it any less silly.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post, since that won't go anywhere. I just don't see what's so silly about suing somebody over trademark infringement. If I had a product, trademarked it and somebody used it to sell their product, I'd feel a little ripped off.

And while I'm here, just a random thought to the throw out there. If you make a shitload of money off of your first album(s), wouldn't it make sense to try some different things? Experiment? I know that's what I would do if I ever made it big. I'd be like "fuck you, I'm rich and I can play this crazy stuff" ... in fact, I think that's what Neil Young probably said, heh.

 

[DaMan121]

Staying out of the Metallica thing, I agree with Jewel and BEP. BEP turned into derivative hip hop so frigen easily its amazing. Trash.. Atleast Jewel is frigen hoooooot.. Shell go back to her roots anyway, since the "transformation" failed.

 

[White Man]

I disagree. There's a difference between a change (or alteration) in style and selling out.

As I've said, The Who have sold out. Their songs of youthful rebellion are now used to promote SUVs and imported beer. Whenever the lead singer needs to pay off another mortgage, the remaining members dust themselves off and go out on another "farewell tour."

Bands who modify their sound for whatever reason may be doing it for economic reasons, but sometimes it's a genuine attempt to do something new. Neil Young did it a bunch of times, each attempt meeting with varying degrees of success. Perhaps the greatest sea change may be seen in Billy Joel, who went from being a balladeer to a more mainstream singer -- and then promptly disappeared from view.

Since fans are used to the tried and true, any deviation from the plan is naturally looked upon with suspicion.

Oh, I agree with you. Evolving sound isn't always a sell-out attempt.

Billy Joel still milks cock, though.

I was more rallying against people calling Good Charlotte and such sell outs.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Metallica is of course the obvious answer. They have sold out with every album they have ever released. So that's about ten times, you can't beat that.

 

[etiolate]

And while I'm here, just a random thought to the throw out there. If you make a shitload of money off of your first album(s), wouldn't it make sense to try some different things? Experiment? I know that's what I would do if I ever made it big. I'd be like "fuck you, I'm rich and I can play this crazy stuff" ... in fact, I think that's what Neil Young probably said, heh.

I just think there's a difference between trying new things and trying out already established trends.

 

[etiolate]

"The Tendercrisp chicken...."

 

[MC Safety]

"The Tendercrisp chicken...."

I think that's more good-natured self-parody than actually selling out.

 

[SickBoy]

For me, the black album was a piece of shit and the beginning of the end for Metallica.

You know, I was wondering if anyone would say this. In my eyes, this is the Metallica sellout period. It's a loooong time ago, but I believe before the release of the album, they'd basically been anti- the whole MTV thing and never really planned on videos.

Of course, Enter Sandman (maybe even One? in which case it extends pre-black) and the rest is history...

I have to say that my distaste for the album extends to the music as well -- at the time I think I was surprised at how quickly I got bored of it (surprises me today, when I think back to how much I liked the three prior albums -- was never huge on Kill 'Em All). But in all fairness to the band, I haven't listened to them much in years -- I've heard hardly any of their new stuff, and I've rarely listened to their old.