Levine likes killing players in first person view, I think. Call of Duty's got that same fetish... if you can call it that
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BioShock Infinite: Burial at Sea - Episode Two - Spoiler OT
- Thread starter ElzarTheBam
- Start date
Levine likes killing players in first person view, I think. Call of Duty's got that same fetish... if you can call it that
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
But women be like that....
kidding aside. I totally "got" how her character was in episode 1. it's like she was so over everything. An innocent who got put through so much bullshit. The cold part made sense to me. I actually found it amusing. the only part that threw me off was the end when she had the "Kill Bill" tude
The perfect Dark
Banned
My verdict (sorry for grammar, I hate my IPad)
Okay, finished the DLC.
I love Bioshock, probably my favorite trilogy of all time. I also loved the first episode.
But Episode 2? I didn't like it. Don't get me wrong. It's still Bioshock, it's fun to play and the atmosphere is great. The intro was fantastic and the ending...well...shit. And everything else felt mediocre. There's no sense of a real "connected" world. Just some linear levels. The
t was disappointing because I like
and we only got a small environment. It's nothing compared to Episode 1. Something is clearly missing here. I can't put my finger on it though.
I don't like the story....and I don't like the connection to Bioshock 1. I really hope it's not
They completely destroyed the story of Bioshock 1 and 2. Some questions just don't need answers. Definitely the worst Bioshock Story- DLC.
This DLC changed my mind. Bioshock 1 + 2 are awesome and Bioshock Infinite should never have happened.
Edit:
Okay, finished the DLC.
I love Bioshock, probably my favorite trilogy of all time. I also loved the first episode.
But Episode 2? I didn't like it. Don't get me wrong. It's still Bioshock, it's fun to play and the atmosphere is great. The intro was fantastic and the ending...well...shit. And everything else felt mediocre. There's no sense of a real "connected" world. Just some linear levels. The
Rapture par
Rapture more than Columbia
I don't like the story....and I don't like the connection to Bioshock 1. I really hope it's not
the same universe because it wouldn't make any sense.
This DLC changed my mind. Bioshock 1 + 2 are awesome and Bioshock Infinite should never have happened.
Edit:
Why is Ken Levine ignoring Bioshock 2? This is bullshit, the game was awesome
Bedameister
Member
Because he didn't make it? Bioshock 2 was not made by Irrational Games
Don't think that's what was going on. Like as a real character study. I think it was done because it was cool, more than anything else. Uh, it's a noir mood, so let's make her a vengeful fatale.
It certainly doesn't fit into some pre-planned character arc. Very sporadic/episodic.
Guess its open to interpretation, but the feeling I got from Infinite's ending was that Booker died from the drowning only for it to be undone when the universe wiped out every instance of Comstock. Hence only Booker remained as shown in the epilogue, so in a sense he died but he also survived.
ElzarTheBam
Member
I somewhat agree. In a sense her journey was tragic, and like she commented herself in EP2, all she ever is, is someone who is constantly used and in that regard I found that quite refreshing.
But, like you said, her development was too accelerated, too many big gaps, I would have personally loved this character go on a bit further. A few more titles/DLC with Elizabeth in would have been great.
Ken retconned all that as having mattered in a real sense, though. Columbia's still around, Comstock's still around. I mean, the SAME Columbia we played in. That's still there in the game. And at the end, none of that's resolved as collapsing along with Elizabeth's death or something. It all falls to the wayside so they can connect Elizabeth with Bioshock 1.
For what it's worth, it could be interpreted that the Rapture in this DLC and the Rapture in the first two Bioshock games are different versions in different universes, thus avoiding retcons. Considering all the differences like Rapture having drinkable plasmids, it makes sense.
It's kind of a copout, but whatever.
It's kind of a copout, but whatever.
For what it's worth, it could be interpreted that the Rapture in this DLC and the Rapture in the first two Bioshock games are different versions in different universes, thus avoiding retcons. Considering all the differences like Rapture having drinkable plasmids, it makes sense.
It's kind of a copout, but whatever.
Levine said it was "Rapture Prime" in an interview. It's pretty obviously meant to be what it seems to be, I think.
Haha, guess both sides are pissed. I enjoyed Bioshock 1 for what it was, but I liked Infinite's story/characters/mythos far more and I was ticked that the ending of Infinite was tied in to serve as a prequel to Bioshock 1 and Elizabeth's sacrifice in the end was so that we could get that sappy happy Bioshock 1 ending which never mattered to me.
I love this image. I spent an hour just fully exploring every nook and cranny of the Paris scene. In this screen in particular you can see the Bioshock Wrench wind chimes on the left that foreshadow the ending.
A few other minor notes...
- The playing cards that flutter past your face? The closest one to you is an Ace of Spades with a Rapture lighthouse on it. The Ace in the Hole. You can actually see these cards up close before Paris becomes noirish. Two men are playing cards outside a cafe. The man in the top hat is holding all of the aces.
- It's obvious, but the lobotomy scene is also forecast in Noir Paris by the huge poster. You can also see the operating table and Atlas's surgical devices, and there is the first instance of shattered glass for the player to walk over.
- There's a dead cat in an alleyway. Rapture was full of dead cats.
- The world actively closes you in. When the gusty storm blows Sally's balloon away, the alleys behind you close. You are being forced back to Rapture.
- The black silhouette paintings? They're all of Bioshock characters who are major players in BaS2 (e.g. Lutece twins, Daisy).
- All the people in the Paris scene are drinking Pinot Noir. A nod to the noirish aesthetic?
- Disney-esque Paris has a bird motif. Those songbirds that are colored in pastels fluttering about and singing along. Once Paris changes, your path back is blocked by a murder of crows. The trash that floats through the streets kind of looks birdlike too. It's a nice visual representation of the change in mood.
- The clown that presumably sold the balloon to Sally will gaze directly into your eyes if you stare at him long enough and it's TERRIFYING. He knows. That motherfucker knows.
- Oh, and then you meet Seurat. Which is pretty funny.
For what it's worth, it could be interpreted that the Rapture in this DLC and the Rapture in the first two Bioshock games are different versions in different universes, thus avoiding retcons. Considering all the differences like Rapture having drinkable plasmids, it makes sense.
It's kind of a copout, but whatever.
No, it's definitely the same Rapture. The drinkable plasmids conundrum is specifically addressed in BaS (basically, the drinkable ones came first because of convenience, but then were moved back to shots because the amount of ADAM needed was less. Think crack versus cocaine.)
Also, I just finished Bioshock 1 again in preparation for this game and during the final parts of the game you revisit areas that are legitimate recreations of areas we had explored as Jack in Rapture. The Suchong death scene takes place in an area we visit later as Jack, and the rooms are essentially as I remember them (albeit a lot prettier looking). It was neat seeing that scene happen, although, again, it wasn't much payoff since we already knew (from the audiolog in BS1) exactly what happened. The final two audiologs of BaS2, in fact, are reused from Bioshock 1, which is kind of odd. Does Elizabeth then leave them there?
SoraanTribal
Member
Yeah, you're right, but it's kind of complicated, and like you said, open to interpretation. In any case, the execution of his "death" was far better than that of Elizabeth's death. Like when I beat Infinite, I was feeling all sorts of things. I was piecing everything together as Elizabeth talked to him at the Baptism, then things instantly clicked at what was going on. It was such a weird, but awesome feeling to have as the credits started to roll. In contrast, when this DLC ended and I saw Elizabeth dying, my reaction was like "well, shit..."
Like I've said earlier in the thread, part of my annoyance at the BaS DLC is how overly reliant it is on Rapture/Bioshock 1 for the story. I'm one of the people who much prefers Bioshock Infinite (the characters, the story, the world) over Bioshock 1. I like Rapture, but at the same time, I had more than enough of it already. And I really did not like how they basically turned Infinite into the prequel to Bioshock 1 and tied it directly to those events. *shrug*
if I had waited a second before typing up my post, I could have just quoted you and said "yep, that is how I feel as well"
Bedameister
Member
For what it's worth, it could be interpreted that the Rapture in this DLC and the Rapture in the first two Bioshock games are different versions in different universes, thus avoiding retcons. Considering all the differences like Rapture having drinkable plasmids, it makes sense.
It's kind of a copout, but whatever.
There is an audio log which explains the situation with the drinkable plasmids.
Suchong got the idea of drinkable plasmids from Fink and made them available in Rapture. But drinkable Plasmids need ten times more adam then the original ones. There is an audio log of Fontaine where he's mad at Suchong about that and tells him to get rid of them and get the original injections back.
Lionel Mandrake
Member
So basically BaS's entire story was
. Which is okay. It probably needed to be done. That
. Though I was hoping they would have shown us more about
I don't know what. Just something to make him more than
. Eh.
My only major complaint was the role
. It feels... incomplete. When
Also:
"Music available at bioshockinfinite.com/music."
Fucking liars.
an attempt to make-up for the complete disappointment of the original BioShock's ending
original ending was hilariously bad, and this at the very least gave it some impact
"Jack."
just another silent FPS protagonist. Some connection to Columbia, more backstory
My only major complaint was the role
the Luteces played
they showed up at the end of Part I, I thought, "Oh, I guess they're working for Elizabeth." Then when they showed up to talk to Daisy, I thought, "I guess we're going to learn a bit more about their motivations." But we didn't. It seems like there should have been another appearance to round out their roles.
Also:
"Music available at bioshockinfinite.com/music."
Fucking liars.
Ah okay. I remembered that, but got mixed up.
The perfect Dark
Banned
Yeah I know but Bioshock 2 was a perfect sequel and introduced some great characters. Levine is just stupid and selfish and didn't have any clue how to end this trilogy. The story of Episode 2 was.....woah....I have no words, just bad. Right now I really hope Take2 makes another Bioshock game (setting: Rapture). Just ignore Ken's "Infinite" and continue with the original Bioshock story.
Lionel Mandrake
Member
I think I missed a shitload of audio logs. I can't remember exactly how many I had, but I think I was short nearly 10 entries, despite me looking all over the place.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
you are the man for pointing all this shit out!
OH SHIT....gonna try that now....
I dunno about that. He's got a certain point of view that tends to lead him into telling specific stories, and most of those are about history and political commentary and plot twists. He's a very intelligent man, though.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
Isn't it just as selfish to call someone else selfish when their story doesn't go the way you wanted it to go?
The perfect Dark
Banned
Isn't it just as selfish to call someone else selfish when their story doesn't go the way you wanted it to go?
Heh, yeah...maybe. But Ken ignoring a whole game? I mean Infinite was good, Episode 1 was cool (because Rapture) but Episode 2 is bullshit (sorry) in every way.
Ken just doesn't give a fuck about Bioshock 2 (and this game is just as good as Bioshock 1).
*Angry Joe voice* "They've fucked it up". The story of Bioshock was awesome...until I've played Episode 2. Now it's crap.
They should've had him do bug eyes after a certain amount of time.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
I wonder if this is the same clown in Columbia when Booker first gets there.
<edit> looks like it is, except costume color is slightly different. And he does the same stare. Most likely used to not have to spend time and resourses just to remake a new clown, just use the same clown in Columbia, But STILL.....CONSTANTS AND VARIABLES.
Whether it's the same Rapture is open to debate. The Rapture of BaS is massive compared to the one we see in the first game (there's only one tall spire building in the original game, but if you look at the building Market Street is supposed to be in, it's huge and isn't even the tallest building around.) Likewise the Kashmir looks completely different and you have an unobstructed view of Market Street whereas in the original game it's much smaller and its view is blocked. There's no actual room for the bathysphere station and Suchong's secret lab in the original Artemis Suites. The weapons are of course all different. I suppose you can wave it all away as artistic changes, and I'm sure Ken might say it's supposed to be the same world, but from all appearances it's not.
As stated above, the whole protector program would have made no sense and hence there wouldn't be a Bioshock 2 according to BaS, so that's another reason to ignore it.
I attribute a lot of the visual differences to the change in engine. Infinite's engine has a much cleaner look and is more capable when it comes to expansive areas. As such, it trades artistic vistas for the more claustrophobic hallways of Bioshock 1. The difference in engine capabilities is one of the reasons Irrational was drawn to the idea of revisiting Rapture. As you said, it is Ken Levine's opinion that this Rapture is the same as the one we visited in Bioshock 1. Granted, art can sometimes escape the interpretation of the authors and since it is never explicited said that Rapture Prime is the same as BaS Rapture (although the "Previously in Bioshock" video certainly suggests it), the matter is subjective.
Another point of comparison: the Welcome Center basically looks the exact same in Infinite, but it's also got different corridors and pathways (not to mention no genetic lockout on the bathysphere).
aGuyInaBearSuit
Member
I have to wonder if Irrational doesn't consider BioShock 2 to be canon since they didn't make it.
I'd find it hilarious if Ken never played it. I know there are some creatives who essentially see stuff they didn't touch as not existing.
SoraanTribal
Member
I dunno what Ken thinks, but if someone else wrote a piece of work as a sequel something I made, I probably wouldn't consider it canon (unless I gave them input on where the story should go). So I wouldn't blame him if he didn't even consider Bioshock 2 being part of his "canon".
Levine literally said BaS Rapture is Rapture Prime.
Yes, that is true, but what is said by the author does not necessarily mean it is true for the text. HARRY POTTER SPOILER: For example, JK Rowling suggested that Dumbledore is a homosexual character after releasing the book. If you not going to give enough evidence in the actual text, videogame, book, whatever, then, no matter what you say outside of the product, it is open for interpretation.
Agreed. While I'm not a fan of the fan extrapolation to the extent of "The Shining is about Kubrick faking the moon landing", at some point authorial intent is irrelevant compared to what the text actually says. People aren't going to remember a random interview (although do you have a link? I'm curious to what he said, because I wasn't aware he'd said so definitively.)
bodyofanamerican
Member
Anyone else see any similarity between Liz and Ryan's death? A man chooses, a slave obeys, etc. She totally accepts that her death is coming and even goads Atlas into doing it.
Overall I enjoyed the game. Though I thought the stealth system was completely broken. I ended up just running through almost every area with invisibility. EVEs were scattered all over the place so I never ran out. Felt like I was playing the game with cheats on.
Story-wise I'm disappointed. It feels like the Star Wars Prequels, it's telling a story that doesn't need to be told. I don't need to know how Atlas rose up and rebelled against Ryan, I can just fill in the blanks on my own. I really hated how they retconned Daisy's character, such a stupid decision that makes zero sense. The best part about Daisy trying to kill a little boy was that it brought moral ambiguity to the whole Founder vs Vox Populi war. Both sides were proven to be no better than the other. I thought that was the whole point. But that was all thrown out the window.
Story-wise I'm disappointed. It feels like the Star Wars Prequels, it's telling a story that doesn't need to be told. I don't need to know how Atlas rose up and rebelled against Ryan, I can just fill in the blanks on my own. I really hated how they retconned Daisy's character, such a stupid decision that makes zero sense. The best part about Daisy trying to kill a little boy was that it brought moral ambiguity to the whole Founder vs Vox Populi war. Both sides were proven to be no better than the other. I thought that was the whole point. But that was all thrown out the window.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Also, why did the Big Daddy kill Noir Liz if it hadn't been successfully pair bonded with Sally yet?
I've noticed a lot of people are saying the DLC (both parts, really) are super fan-fictiony, but I thought that was the point overall. Ken did say he was writing it for the fans.
Now I'm not saying that makes it all better (though, I thoroughly enjoyed it), just thought some people should be reminded is all.
Went back and got the ONE missing audio log. Turns out it was in an extremely obvious place in Columbia, the big Zeppelin. Got all the cheevos. Much accomplished.
Now I'm not saying that makes it all better (though, I thoroughly enjoyed it), just thought some people should be reminded is all.
Went back and got the ONE missing audio log. Turns out it was in an extremely obvious place in Columbia, the big Zeppelin. Got all the cheevos. Much accomplished.
The perfect Dark
Banned
After 9 hours of sleep I still think that BAS is shit. Most of the users in the official BS forums think the same.
http://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?442221-Does-anyone-else-feel-this-way-about-Burial-at-Sea
http://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?442221-Does-anyone-else-feel-this-way-about-Burial-at-Sea
Lol, Levine. This is perfect
Kenny boy said:
I'd say you completely missed the boat on that one Ken, unless your definition of "what people already knew" is different than most peoples. We knew every story you told us in BaS before the layers of bullshit.
Interesting note that I had forgotten, about how Shirley said Levine had input on the Bioshock 1/2 prequel/tiein novel Rapture.
Really, the more I think of it the more this "valentine" to the fans seems as dismissive and tone-deaf as the finale of Star Trek: Enterprise. Both were supposed to be what all the fans wanted, both sacrificed the integrety of their characters to tell other unrelated stories (Infinite's characters reduced to background for Bioshock 1, The Next Generation taking over the Enterprise crew.
Melchiah
Member
I played through the game last night, and I must say it was a disappointment. The gameplay, especially the stealth mechanics, felt tiresome, and the length of the DLC only made it worse. I wish there had been more adventuring around the surroundings, and puzzles to solve, instead of constant confrontations. I fucking hated the long cutscene, that was played every time after death occurred. Not to mention, how a failure threw you back, forcing you to do things all over again. Once I had cleared an entire area, and when I was on my way back I was killed by two Splicers that appeared out of nowhere. As a result I had to clear the area again. =(
I didn't find the story that good either, although the atmosphere was good at times (loved the audio), and some of the details about imprinting were interesting. The so-called twist was entirely ineffective, but then again, so was the one in the first Bioshock for me. It felt like a forced way to tie all the pieces together. It was also disappointing, that Bioshock 2 was completely written off from the continuum.
Did anyone else have problems with the trophies? They registered as they should while I was playing, but none of the DLC's trophies show in trophy list. The game also had oddly long loading/auto-save times, when moving to another location, during which it often froze for few seconds.
I didn't find the story that good either, although the atmosphere was good at times (loved the audio), and some of the details about imprinting were interesting. The so-called twist was entirely ineffective, but then again, so was the one in the first Bioshock for me. It felt like a forced way to tie all the pieces together. It was also disappointing, that Bioshock 2 was completely written off from the continuum.
Did anyone else have problems with the trophies? They registered as they should while I was playing, but none of the DLC's trophies show in trophy list. The game also had oddly long loading/auto-save times, when moving to another location, during which it often froze for few seconds.
DoctorPayne
Banned
That's actually a really good analogy.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Really goes to show that as soon as creators either start listening to or creating things specifically for their audience, the overall product tends to go to shit.
Whether or not the failings of BaS are the result of listening to the fans to much is open to debate. I'm sure Levine would say that his process wasn't unduly influenced by fans (although apparently they were influenced by poorly thought-out complaints about Fitzroy on feminist blogs.)
Speaking of Fitzroy, while they did totally butcher her character with BaS, I thought that the voxophone on the ship would have been interesting to have in the original gamethe one where she talks about needing to show restraint, but she's not sure if she's capable. That would add another shade to her characteressentially she just loses control of her own impulses. But no, we get dialogue that invalidates everything we thought we knew about her and turns her into a pawn. And people complained about stripping the minority characters of their agency int he base game
(Something that really surprised me when you walk back through the area after Booker and Elizabeth have gone through is that the fallen Handyman is exactly where I killed him on my playthrough. Pure coincidence of course but it was cool.)
Dragon1893
Member
The goal was to save the little sisters, not just Sally in particular, she couldn't have known if Sally would survive for that long.
I feel that Elizabeth deserved better than this, she died for a noble cause but I didn't like that she ended up as a tool for Fontaine to take down Ryan. I still don't get how she let's herself get killed like that and then becomes a normal person.
So basically it comes down to this:
Elizabeth goes to Rapture to kill that last Comstock that wasn't erased by the events in Infinite's ending.
She uses Sally to psychologically torture and then kill this Comstock.
This ends up haunting her though and she decides to save Sally.
To achieve that goal she ends up giving Fontaine what he needs to destroy Ryan, which is bringing Jack to Rapture.
I guess in the end Liz wins because Jack also kills Fontaine and fulfills her objective of saving Sally and the other little sisters.
I can deal with the Bioshock 2 thing. I loved that game but I can pretend that BS2 took place in a different universe. What Liz did in BaS only affected the universe she was in. For me BS2's events could've happened in a different Rapture, one just like the one we saw in BS1 with all the same events, but where Jack's arrival was triggered by something else. Like I said Liz was in that particular universe where the last Comstock lived and though that might've been the same Rapture we visited in BS1, it doesn't mean it's the same from BS2.
Loved Courtnee's singing during the credits. That girl is so talented.
A lot of criticism towards Inifinite came from quarters that argued that the game didn't grapple enough with racism as a central theme, or that by having Fitzroy and the Vox Populi turn out to be as ruthless as their oppressors, in the words of one lady, "youre just confirming the racist white peoples ideas about black people and presenting them as true." Just so you understand the deep end of this argument, I'll excerpt a paragraph that follows:
src
It's of course utter crap, but apparently Irrational/Ken felt like they had to respond, and they weaken several characters by doing so. Yay.