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[Krentist]

I still don't understand the "reasoning" behind why Elizabeth was duplicated into a non-tear version, aside from obviously not giving the player god-tier abilities.

Also, the visions of Elizabeth doing all these things beforehand... did the imapled Elizabeth experience all of them and was then killed by a Big Daddy instead of Atlas, or were the visions more of her "seeing behind all the doors" thing where it's an amalgamation of her seeing other versions of herself doing this whole thing...? I just didn't understand.

I also felt like looping this whole thing back around to Jack like Jack is somehow the super-duper hero felt forced... it just seems overkill that the entirety of Bioshock Infinite and its connective tissue supposedly had to occur just for Atlas to get the "Would You Kindly" phrase... and it immediately lessens the impact of Booker and Elizabeth in my eyes.

I guess some small part of me was still hoping that Elizabeth's Booker would somehow return to her, but that was far too much of a sunny outcome to ever hope for. ... But for Elizabeth to jut sit there and let herself get executed felt really unsatisfying to me.

What happened to the Luteces? I recall there being an audio tape of them indicating they could make themselves as mortal/regular as Elizabeth did if they were to try and set things right... and then the whole Lutece thing was dropped entirely... what the hell ever became of them?

... And was anyone else thinking that Jack's face was going to look like Booker's? I was totally waiting for that reveal to happen, but his face was never unobscured. I want to see if someone ends up extracting the game model to see what he looks like.

 

[Levyne]

A lot of criticism towards Inifinite came from quarters that argued that the game didn't grapple enough with racism as a central theme, or that by having Fitzroy and the Vox Populi turn out to be as ruthless as their oppressors, in the words of one lady, "you’re just confirming the racist white peoples’ ideas about black people and presenting them as true." Just so you understand the deep end of this argument, I'll excerpt a paragraph that follows:

src
It's of course utter crap, but apparently Irrational/Ken felt like they had to respond, and they weaken several characters by doing so. Yay.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[SoraanTribal]

I still don't understand the "reasoning" behind why Elizabeth was duplicated into a non-tear version, aside from obviously not giving the player god-tier abilities.

It was probably more of a gameplay reason, but for the story, [apparently] Elizabeth going back to a world where her omniscient self had died made her "collapse". Like all of her omniscient versions. As far as I understood it - there are no more Elizabeths with powers. They all collapsed into one entity - a normal girl who still had her pinky. I could be wrong on this, but that's how I understood it. Although you do see the Elizabeth in Infinite while riding that elevator but... meh whatever lol.

Also, the visions of Elizabeth doing all these things beforehand... did the imapled Elizabeth experience all of them and was then killed by a Big Daddy instead of Atlas, or were the visions more of her "seeing behind all the doors" thing where it's an amalgamation of her seeing other versions of herself doing this whole thing...? I just didn't understand.

From what I could tell, Elizabeth said she was able to feel everything that every other Elizabeth felt (she says this near the beginning when first talking to "Booker"). So I assume they all kind of shared feelings, memories, etc. This means she was basically able to see everything (Behind all the doors) at once, but when she returned to a normal human being, she obviously lost those powers. However, she still retained some of those memories (like memories of seeing through the doors) which is where "Booker" comes into play. He is basically a manifestation of those memories.

I also felt like looping this whole thing back around to Jack like Jack is somehow the super-duper hero felt forced... it just seems overkill that the entirety of Bioshock Infinite and its connective tissue supposedly had to occur just for Atlas to get the "Would You Kindly" phrase... and it immediately lessens the impact of Booker and Elizabeth in my eyes.

Totally agreed. When it was just a simple wink/nudge in Infinite's ending with them going back to Rapture - I loved that. It was brilliant and a great way to explain the multiple universes. But then they *directly* link the stories of Infinite and Bioshock 1.. ugh, no thanks. Now when I look at Infinite, all I'll see is how it is now a prequel to the first Bioshock. Elizabeth went from being one of my favorite characters this past generation to just a pawn that set the events of the first game into motion. Okay, I'm probably overreacting/exaggerating here, but I still feel like it lessens the impact of Infinite's story (which I preferred over the story of Bioshock 1).

I guess some small part of me was still hoping that Elizabeth's Booker would somehow return to her, but that was far too much of a sunny outcome to ever hope for. ... But for Elizabeth to jut sit there and let herself get executed felt really unsatisfying to me.

Agreed again. I mean, I knew her Booker would never return to her, but I think part of me still wanted that to happen, haha. But I seriously hated Elizabeth's death. I didn't hate the fact that she died, but I feel like her death was not fitting of her character and served no purpose other than "well, she can't be alive in Bioshock 1's story, so we obviously gotta to kill her!" Booker's death in Infinite was so well executed and stuck with me for a long time (even now actually), but Elizabeth's death... I was just pissed more than anything.

What happened to the Luteces? I recall there being an audio tape of them indicating they could make themselves as mortal/regular as Elizabeth did if they were to try and set things right... and then the whole Lutece thing was dropped entirely... what the hell ever became of them?

I just assumed the voxophone was there to give closure to the Lutece storyline. They went back to being normal humans as well. I don't really think they had to show that on screen, but would have been nice, I suppose. I'm more surprised that they didn't have another appearance toward the end. Seems like they would have been there at some point.

... And was anyone else thinking that Jack's face was going to look like Booker's? I was totally waiting for that reveal to happen, but his face was never unobscured. I want to see if someone ends up extracting the game model to see what he looks like.

haha, honestly.. I did. I mean, when Elizabeth started to say "I can see all the doors, and what's behind all the doors. And behind one of them - incredibly - I see him." (btw, I loved her delivery on that line) I thought it was going to reveal that Jack looked like Booker. I know this would not really make a lot of sense in the story, but I thought that was where it was going, lol.

 

[A-V-B]

A lot of criticism towards Inifinite came from quarters that argued that the game didn't grapple enough with racism as a central theme, or that by having Fitzroy and the Vox Populi turn out to be as ruthless as their oppressors, in the words of one lady, "you’re just confirming the racist white peoples’ ideas about black people and presenting them as true." Just so you understand the deep end of this argument, I'll excerpt a paragraph that follows:

src
It's of course utter crap, but apparently Irrational/Ken felt like they had to respond, and they weaken several characters by doing so. Yay.

Wow. That bit about Irish people not deserving to rebel against racism just because they're white is even bigger racism than anything she's rallying against.

Just that it's so hypocritical... jeeze

 

[Fuchsdh]

Wow. That bit about Irish people not deserving to rebel against racism just because they're white is even bigger racism than anything she's rallying against.

Just that it's so hypocritical... jeeze

To be fair there are some better arguments that aren't as laden with the bullshit she spews (although another favorite one of mine is the guy complaining about all the "whiteys"), I just picked the most insufferable example I could find.

The biggest criticism I agree with is that Daisy does go from revolutionary to stone-cold killer pretty fast because we jump universes. All of a sudden we don't really know what the stakes are and what exactly went down, so it's difficult for us to understand why the Vox are the way they are and it's a missed opportunity for character development. Obviously from a game standpoint you couldn't spend another two hours milling about developing characters I don't think without killing the broader momentum; it's an issue with pacing all narrative-focused games have.

 

[A-V-B]

To be fair there are some better arguments that aren't as laden with the bullshit she spews (although another favorite one of mine is the guy complaining about all the "whiteys"), I just picked the most insufferable example I could find.

The biggest criticism I agree with is that Daisy does go from revolutionary to stone-cold killer pretty fast because we jump universes. All of a sudden we don't really know what the stakes are and what exactly went down, so it's difficult for us to understand why the Vox are the way they are and it's a missed opportunity for character development. Obviously from a game standpoint you couldn't spend another two hours milling about developing characters I don't think without killing the broader momentum; it's an issue with pacing all narrative-focused games have.

It wouldn't've been such a problem if Infinite was more than just a straight shooter. Wider gameplay would've allowed for more breathing room.

And TBH, I think it was sort of a bad idea in the narrative to make you skip around in time like that and miss so much development. It disconnects you. Maybe it's supposed to, but if so I think it's still a flaw in design. Good abstract artistic concept, not so good for emotional structure.

 

[endresults]

No wonder this thread was hard to find. There's so many haters in here it's incredible.

I loved every bit of it and every reference and plot twist back to the original Bioshock. I don't understand how all the connections back to the original and setting up the good end where Doomguy rescues 21 little girls is such a horrible waste of the potential of Elizabeth. She fucking fixed Infinite's timeline in Infinite and BaS1 and then fixed Bioshock's in BaS2. That's good end all around for me.

 

[A-V-B]

No wonder this thread was hard to find. There's so many haters in here it's incredible.

I loved every bit of it and every reference and plot twist back to the original Bioshock. I don't understand how all the connections back to the original and setting up the good end where Doomguy rescues 21 little girls is such a horrible waste of the potential of Elizabeth. She fucking fixed Infinite's timeline in Infinite and BaS1 and then fixed Bioshock's in BaS2. That's good end all around for me.

Lovely. Glad that's all you needed for happiness. Go forth and find joy.

 

[endresults]

Lovely. Glad that's all you needed for happiness. Go forth and find joy.

Yeah, all that talk about being locked down into paths and timelines and giant fucking charts with twists and turns is over, and it's just good end BS1/Infinite. Feels good after almost 10 years.

Back to the pitchforks and torches.

 

[Noray]

Played it, finished it, read some of the first page and here are my thoughts. I don't know what happened in the posts above mine other than some people are angry.

I loved a lot of it. I loved going back to Columbia and finding out Songbird's origin story, but I was hoping for something a little more impactful. Not having an actual meeting with Songbird was a HUGE wasted opportunity imo. I loved Elizabeth's more realtalk moments with "Booker" especially the moment where she admits she misses him. That just... goddamn, that got me. THAT'S what I wanted out of this DLC.

What I got was something that served as a prequel to Bioshock and served to enrich the narrative of the complete void of personality that is "Jack". What a bummer. The ending was happening and I felt a twinge of disappointment, because I realized that this was all setup so Jack could save the little sisters. But I don't care about Jack! No one cares about Jack! It's Bioshock Infinite y'all, we care about Booker and Elizabeth, and unless I'm mistaken, the implication is that Elizabeth is truly, properly dead now. So that Bioshock 1 could happen.

Of all the directions they could've taken, that's like the most Star Wars preqels-esque. I hate that they did that. I can't stand it. So Booker and Elizabeth are both dead forever now so Bioshock could happen? It already did. And with all the talk of infinite universes and stuff, isn't the implication that there are tons more Raptures out there with Little Sisters that didn't get saved, because Liz only intervened in this one instance?

Like I said, I loved a lot of this DLC, but I hate how they wrapped it up. It seemed to be building towards something with Booker, but nope. They sold Elizabeth down the river for some little sisters and Jack, neither of whom have any personality. Like, in concept, the idea of Elizabeth redeeming herself by saving a bunch of little girls works, but then why not give US a reason to care about them?

I was glowing when I finished it, but the more I think about it, the more I think they really fucked everything up and it makes me appreciate the ending of Infinite, which I adore, a lot less. This really feels like fanfiction.

Oh and re: Daisy, people that are upset because they changed her motivation: go home, you're drunk. As if her killing a kid was reasonable or logical to begin with. Given, we don't know a lot about her, but come on. And by the way, it still doesn't fix the problem with the Vox/Daisy arc, as I see it, which is that Slavery is used to further the story of a white duo that is ENTIRELY unrelated to slavery. It's completely unnecessary in the context of Infinite. I love Infinite, but it was handled poorly and the DLC didn't actually address that. But I'm not mad about it.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Played it, finished it, read some of the first page and here are my thoughts. I don't know what happened in the posts above mine other than some people are angry.

I loved a lot of it. I loved going back to Columbia and finding out Songbird's origin story, but I was hoping for something a little more impactful. Not having an actual meeting with Songbird was a HUGE wasted opportunity imo. I loved Elizabeth's more realtalk moments with "Booker" especially the moment where she admits she misses him. That just... goddamn, that got me. THAT'S what I wanted out of this DLC.

What I got was something that served as a prequel to Bioshock and served to enrich the narrative of the complete void of personality that is "Jack". What a bummer. The ending was happening and I felt a twinge of disappointment, because I realized that this was all setup so Jack could save the little sisters. But I don't care about Jack! No one cares about Jack! It's Bioshock Infinite y'all, we care about Booker and Elizabeth, and unless I'm mistaken, the implication is that Elizabeth is truly, properly dead now. So that Bioshock 1 could happen.

Of all the directions they could've taken, that's like the most Star Wars preqels-esque. I hate that they did that. I can't stand it. So Booker and Elizabeth are both dead forever now so Bioshock could happen? It already did. And with all the talk of infinite universes and stuff, isn't the implication that there are tons more Raptures out there with Little Sisters that didn't get saved, because Liz only intervened in this one instance?

Like I said, I loved a lot of this DLC, but I hate how they wrapped it up. It seemed to be building towards something with Booker, but nope. They sold Elizabeth down the river for some little sisters and Jack, neither of whom have any personality. Like, in concept, the idea of Elizabeth redeeming herself by saving a bunch of little girls works, but then why not give US a reason to care about them?

I was glowing when I finished it, but the more I think about it, the more I think they really fucked everything up and it makes me appreciate the ending of Infinite, which I adore, a lot less. This really feels like fanfiction.

Oh and re: Daisy, people that are upset because they changed her motivation: go home, you're drunk. As if her killing a kid was reasonable or logical to begin with. Given, we don't know a lot about her, but come on. And by the way, it still doesn't fix the problem with the Vox/Daisy arc, as I see it, which is that Slavery is used to further the story of a white duo that is ENTIRELY unrelated to slavery. It's completely unnecessary in the context of Infinite. I love Infinite, but it was handled poorly and the DLC didn't actually address that. But I'm not mad about it.

You might want to check your sobriety first. What slavery are you referring to?

 

[Noray]

You might want to check your sobriety first. What slavery are you referring to?

PoCs are basically slaves in Columbia. Maybe not technically, but whatever. So they rise up in rebellion. It's a serious topic and not something that should be shoehorned in just as background filler. Like, I don't want to get into a huge debate about semantics, I just think it's rather poorly thought out, and ethical issues aside, it's not really thematically relevant. That's pretty much my thoughts on it. I can see why people would take offense, even if I'm not personally so inclined.

Plot question: What the hell was Elizabeth doing on Jack's plane? Like wth. How even?

 

[Ropaire]

The goal was to save the little sisters, not just Sally in particular, she couldn't have known if Sally would survive for that long.

I don't know; I've watched the ending twice now, and it seems to imply pretty heavily that Elizabeth knows with the same clarity of any of her stored premonitions that Sally personally will be on the first bathysphere out of there.

This thread is quickly getting into the touchy subject of Daisy. I'm pretty disgruntled about that as well. I actually thought the biggest weakness in Infinite's writing was the false equivalence opined between Comstock and Daisy after the Vox revolution by Elizabeth, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that, given how Levine is now being accused here and in other places of kowtowing to us social justice warriors by retconning Fitzroy's motivations and character.

However, the move is so absurdly over-compensatory and hollow that it's just ridiculous. I actually found everything Daisy did in Infinite originally completely justified, from a character perspective, and this whitewashing of her moral code is really rather ugly. It outright includes a Christ comparison, as she refers to her "Gethsemane" in a Voxophone recording. I mean, jeez, lay it on a little thicker, why don't you?

 

[SoraanTribal]

Plot question: What the hell was Elizabeth doing on Jack's plane? Like wth. How even?

She wasn't really there. It was just the game's way of showing how the events were set into motion and to have a really dramatic way of revealing the "Would you kindly" bit.

I agree for the most part with your earlier post (except the Daisy stuff never really bothered me in the original game) especially the part about not caring at all about Jack or the Little Sisters. I enjoyed Bioshock 1 mainly for the setting and the big twist around 75% through the game. But I never cared about Jack - he was just some mute guy in a sweater or something. I cared a lot about Booker, Elizabeth, and the Luteces, but I don't feel like any of them got a proper send off in the DLCs.

 

[Noray]

She wasn't really there. It was just the game's way of showing how the events were set into motion and to have a really dramatic way of revealing the "Would you kindly" bit.

I agree for the most part with your earlier post (except the Daisy stuff never really bothered me in the original game) especially the part about not caring at all about Jack or the Little Sisters. I enjoyed Bioshock 1 mainly for the setting and the big twist around 75% through the game. But I never cared about Jack - he was just some mute guy in a sweater or something. I cared a lot about Booker, Elizabeth, and the Luteces, but I don't feel like any of them got a proper send off in the DLCs.

You were never supposed to, right? I mean, he's mute, so how could you. And the Sisters were a gameplay mechanic more than anything else. I think they were kinda cute (MISTER BUBBLES!) but it's not like I'm super attached to them. To have the ending of the DLC, and thus the entire Bioshock fiction, hinge entirely on an 'emotional' revelation revolving around Jack and the Sisters just seems hugely misguided. No Booker, no Songbird, no Elizabeth, just "hey, Elizabeth made Bioshock 1 happen!"

Maybe the idea is that Elizabeth ends the cycle of violence begetting violence, from Booker to Comstock to Elizabeth, but it doesn't really work for me. Granted, Liz Prime became a bit of a dick in BaS 1, what with going to great lengths to torture Comstock and even hurting Sally in the process, but it's not really the same scale.

It's just not what I wanted from something bearing the Infinite name. It feels misguided. Like they thought what the fans wanted was all the little questions answered, but they went too far. Almost everything in this, from the revelations on Songbird and Big Daddies and Plasmids and Vigors and all that was already alluded to in Infinite. Spelling it all out is so heavy-handed. All I wanted was some emotional beats. Something involving Songbird. What a huge blue balls moment that was. Didn't find out who or what he was, didn't meet him, nothing. Or something involving Booker. Like I said, that moment when she says she misses him, man. Right in the feels.

So many things they could've done with multiverses. This is about the least satisfying thing they could've done, for me, even if I did enjoy spending time in Columbia and Rapture again, and there were definitely great moments in it, but it felt like a lot of build-up to a disappointing resolution.

 

[SoraanTribal]

Agreed. Especially the part about the "emotional beats". The more "human" story of Bioshock Infinite was what made me love that game so much. I grew attached to the characters, the relationships, the drama... that never really happened for me in Bioshock 1. Don't misunderstand me, I think Bioshock 1 is a great game for the most part, but I was never in love with it like some people were. One of the best twists in the medium to be sure, but I felt like the story fell apart after that (in more ways than one). Oh and yes, I also loved that "I miss you, Booker" moment in the elevator. One of my favorite moments in the DLC, for sure.

I might be in the minority here, but I actually preferred the story/ending of the first Burial at Sea - it really didn't have much to do with Rapture or Bioshock 1, and was still focused on the multiverse/Elizabeth/Booker/Comstock drama. That said, I feel like Burial at Sea Episode 2 was a better DLC overall in terms of production values, gameplay/content/length, music, and it still had some good story moments (dat fucking intro man...). But similar to the first Bioshock, I feel like it kind of fell apart at the end there somewhat. At least in regards to what I was wanting from the Infinite DLC.

 

[Fuchsdh]

PoCs are basically slaves in Columbia. Maybe not technically, but whatever. So they rise up in rebellion. It's a serious topic and not something that should be shoehorned in just as background filler. Like, I don't want to get into a huge debate about semantics, I just think it's rather poorly thought out, and ethical issues aside, it's not really thematically relevant. That's pretty much my thoughts on it. I can see why people would take offense, even if I'm not personally so inclined.

Plot question: What the hell was Elizabeth doing on Jack's plane? Like wth. How even?

You're saying a movie, film, game can only feature issues of servitude and unequal treatment if it's only about that? Christ.

So by your logic there cannot be any film about a time period before 1865, because if there's a black person in the shot it should be talking about slavery.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Looking back, Courtnee's performance was fucking brilliant.

Especially, for me, the part where she has to defend against Ryan's cronies.

'Booker, I'm scared' absolutely added to that moment.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Looking back, Courtnee's performance was fucking brilliant.

Especially, for me, the part where she has to defend against Ryan's cronies.

'Booker, I'm scared' absolutely added to that moment.

One question someone else might be able to lend credence to: who actually opens up the Silver Fin? Is Ryan actually letting her go? Or does Atlas interfere somehow?

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Looking back, Courtnee's performance was fucking brilliant.

Especially, for me, the part where she has to defend against Ryan's cronies.

'Booker, I'm scared' absolutely added to that moment.

Yep. She killed it.

What bugs me the most is such a direct tie in to the events of Bio1. No problem with Liz running around Rapture doing her own thing, but I loved how much Infinite was it's own thing. It tied in to Rapture and Bio1 if *you* wanted it to, but I was disappointed that everything had to be so spelled out and, well, finite.

The most blatant example, for me, was Liz figuring out the pair bonding between the little sisters and big daddies. I know I'm basically complaining about the concept of retconning (as an MGS fan, I'm quite the hypocrite I know), but it just seemed so unnecessary. There were a million directions they could have gone and I just feel like the team needlessly limited themselves.

 

[SoraanTribal]

Looking back, Courtnee's performance was fucking brilliant.

Especially, for me, the part where she has to defend against Ryan's cronies.

'Booker, I'm scared' absolutely added to that moment.

Totally agreed. I loved her performances in all of the Infinite stuff, but there were several moments in BaS2 where she really nailed the scenes.

 

[pakkit]

You're saying a movie, film, game can only feature issues of servitude and unequal treatment if it's only about that? Christ.

So by your logic there cannot be any film about a time period before 1865, because if there's a black person in the shot it should be talking about slavery.

To be fair, a lot of the first half of Infinite suggested that the game would be a meaningful commentary on the classicism and racism that existed in Columbia. But, in Bioshock games, whomever decides to represent the proletariat ends up exploiting them. In fact, if I could wring a single message out of the Bioshock series, it is that absolute power corrupts absolutely. We see it happen to Ryan, to Atlas, to Booker/Comstock, to alternate universe Daisy, and then, at last, to Godmode Elizabeth. Even characters that start out as seemingly good, righteous people end up taking their powers a step too far. At first, I thought Bioshock 1 was anti-Objectivist, but, with BaS and Infinite, I just think that Bioshock is anti-government. The exploitation will not stop, and the best we can hope to do is instill our children with a good heart and hope that power doesn't eat them away.

 

[PedroLumpy]

Very much enjoyed the throwback to the SHODAN reveal in System Shock 2. God it's been 15 years, but that moment is burned into my memory.

 

[Toa TAK]

"The Age of Innocence" has yet to be written guys. Elizabeth can't get it in the bookstore in Paris. =(

 

[ButchCat]

They are some inconsistencies here, among them is treating the currency in Liz's possession as a variable from Rapture to Columbia when purchasing goods while everything else she carries is considered a constant. It just makes no sense at all.

 

[CrovaxPSO]

Just finished it and I thought it was pretty good. I think all of the tie-ins and retcons to the original and Infinite were handled pretty well. There are a couple of things I don't really get, though, which seem to be intentionally ambiguous (probably). Are all Elizabeths dead now? What about Booker? I guess I'd just be kind of bummed out if the possibility of Booker having a happy ending at the end of Infinite was overwritten by the events of the DLC.

 

[Levyne]

Just finished it and I thought it was pretty good. I think all of the tie-ins and retcons to the original and Infinite were handled pretty well. There are a couple of things I don't really get, though, which seem to be intentionally ambiguous (probably). Are all Elizabeths dead now? What about Booker? I guess I'd just be kind of bummed out if the possibility of Booker having a happy ending at the end of Infinite was overwritten by the events of the DLC.

The original after credits scene is the one main thing I can't place anymore. I just don't get it.

 

[iShouldGoPro]

About to stream from the beginning right NOW! First time playing pt.2

www.twitch.tv/monkeydloufy

 

[A-V-B]

The original after credits scene is the one main thing I can't place anymore. I just don't get it.

It was never supposed to make sense in the first place. It was an "Inception" spinning top epilogue, but used for something with much greater unresolved importance than a spinning top.

 

[Salamando]

Both add-ons ruined Infinite's ending for me. We didn't kill all Comstocks, since one managed to become Burial at Sea's Booker. We didn't even prevent Columbia from existing, since we were able to actually visit it as the revolution was happening. So what exactly did we accomplish at the ending of Infinite?

And hell, given how Burial at Sea played out, wouldn't eliminating all Elizabeths prevent Atlas from ever getting freed, thus preventing Bioshock from ever happening?

Looked at as an isolated entity though, just felt like they were trying to have Elizabeth follow in Booker's footsteps. Take a girl, stick her in a shitty situation, regret it, spend the game trying to rescue her, sacrifice yourself to do so. Not really sure it's worth condemning an underwater city to civil war and destruction just to rescue one girl you just kinda met, but whatever.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

No wonder this thread was hard to find. There's so many haters in here it's incredible.

It's the Cool thing to do. Unless it's a game like Infamous, or MGS.

And hell, given how Burial at Sea played out, wouldn't eliminating all Elizabeths prevent Atlas from ever getting freed, thus preventing Bioshock from ever happening?

everything that happened to the people in the Bioshock world would have still happenned...and the little sisters would have never got saved

 

[Noray]

To be fair, a lot of the first half of Infinite suggested that the game would be a meaningful commentary on the classicism and racism that existed in Columbia. But, in Bioshock games, whomever decides to represent the proletariat ends up exploiting them. In fact, if I could wring a single message out of the Bioshock series, it is that absolute power corrupts absolutely. We see it happen to Ryan, to Atlas, to Booker/Comstock, to alternate universe Daisy, and then, at last, to Godmode Elizabeth. Even characters that start out as seemingly good, righteous people end up taking their powers a step too far. At first, I thought Bioshock 1 was anti-Objectivist, but, with BaS and Infinite, I just think that Bioshock is anti-government. The exploitation will not stop, and the best we can hope to do is instill our children with a good heart and hope that power doesn't eat them away.

Right, and I get that they wanted some thematic connective tissue, but at some point it just feels forced. That's been the point of every Bioshock game including 2, which Levine probably didn't even play but it exists and is there. It felt forced in Infinite, and it feels forced here. The line "The only difference between Comstock and Fitzroy is how you spell the name" rings really hollow, and that's what I meant earlier. Like, you're seriously going to compare the lower, exploited class rising up against their oppressors to a racist dictator? And it doesn't fit for Elizabeth either, despite her somewhat dickish behavior in BaS1.

And yeah, none of this makes any sense in the context of Infinite's ending, which supposedly wiped out all instances of Comstock and Columbia. They really did a good job of just completely erasing all meaning of Infinite. Bah. Now I need some kind of headcanon where the DLC didn't happen.

 

[Salamando]

everything that happened to the people in the Bioshock world would have still happenned...and the little sisters would have never got saved

As Burial at Sea told it, if it weren't for Elizabeth, Atlas would still be in his department store at the bottom of the ocean. He would've never gotten the trigger command and Jack wouldn't show up in Rapture. If Columbia never existed, then who knows how far Suchong would've gotten without Fink's collaborations.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

As Burial at Sea told it, if it weren't for Elizabeth, Atlas would still be in his department store at the bottom of the ocean. He would've never gotten the trigger command and Jack wouldn't show up in Rapture. If Columbia never existed, then who knows how far Suchong would've gotten without Fink's collaborations.

but that doesn't change anything I said. the world of rapture didn't get destroyed because of Jack and Atlas. and still the little sisters would have never got saved. Why would Columbia have never existed? If Burial at sea doesn't happen, Columbia still exists.

 

[Salamando]

but that doesn't change anything I said. the world of rapture didn't get destroyed because of Jack and Atlas. and still the little sisters would have never got saved. Why would Columbia have never existed? If Burial at sea doesn't happen, Columbia still exists.

Never said world of Rapture got destroyed, only that Bioshock itself did. No Atlas getting trigger command = no Jack coming to Rapture = no Bioshock. And Columbia should've ceased to exist completely due to Infinite's ending. We shouldn't have even been able to revisit it in Burial.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Never said world of Rapture got destroyed, only that Bioshock itself did. No Atlas getting trigger command = no Jack coming to Rapture = no Bioshock.

but it happened, according to levine. You could also do something like this with a lot of plots...where if we just eliminate this character or eliminated them doing this one thing, and then the rest of the story doesn't happen. it is what it is.

Point is, the characters themselves in the story would not know this so it makes that point irrelevant.

<Edit> either way, elizabeth's goal was to save the little sisters.

 

[Salamando]

but it happened, according to levine. You could also do something like this with a lot of plots...where if we just eliminate this character or eliminated them doing this one thing, and then the rest of the story doesn't happen. it is what it is.

Point is, the characters themselves in the story would not know this so it makes that point irrelevant.

Think you're missing my point.

Burial establishes Liz as being a big reason the events of BioShock came to pass.

Infinite establishes Liz's no longer exist. They were eliminated.

I'm stuck with either burial being non-canon or Infinite's ending accomplished nothing.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Infinite establishes Liz's no longer exist. They were eliminated.

No they weren't, well almost all of them were eliminated, except 1. That was something that was left open so it could be debated. It wasn't a fact of the story...and with the creation of burial at sea ep 1 and 2, it's obvious that wasn't the case.

 

[Dragon1893]

I don't know; I've watched the ending twice now, and it seems to imply pretty heavily that Elizabeth knows with the same clarity of any of her stored premonitions that Sally personally will be on the first bathysphere out of there.

Yeah, you're right, she does see it in a vision, but her goal was also to save them all, not just Sally.

 

[Seyavesh]

okay i gotta admit i'm actually split between being disgusted and laughing that elizabeth got fridged for jack/bioshock 1

like i'm honestly not a of fan of bioshock infinite/bioshock in general but i think elizabeth was a pretty decently done character who was designed pretty well to be generally appealing/sympathetic to folks. she's easily the best part of infinite and it's not really that much of a surprise given that most of the game's appeal is based around her being as such.

but man, this dlc is kind of a terrible farewell note by irrational if they really wrote it.

especially considering a big part of the ending of the original infinite is that elizabeth effectively became controller of her own destiny, and wasn't bound to the 'archetype' of the bioshock universe anymore.

her getting fridged as a tie-in to bioshock one is both a really hacky and a really dark note to end the game on. it's just overall really bad.. like metal gear solid 4's strange tie-ins to 3 (paramedic being a mad scientist, drebin being the darpa chief) levels of hacky and dark/bad.

it's actually even moreso of a shame because the whole atmosphere and gameplay design of the dlc is really really good!

 

[vladdamad]

Having had some time to process the ending I think I now realise what annoys me the most about the ending - it feels like Irrational just had a bunch of shocking images and twist ideas for the DLC first, and then decided to dump them all in without properly thinking through why they should be in the story. It's essentially a twist for the sake of being a twist - shock value without storytelling to complement it. The best kind of twist in any story is one that develops characters and fits in with the overall themes of the plot - this is not the case here. Things like finding another version of Elizabeth dead at the start, or having Elizabeth being the catalyst for the events in Bioshock 1, all of this feels shoehorned it without anything to back it up. Not to mention that the insanely complex quantum timeline stuff is now even more difficult to understand. Ambiguity and subtlety are fine, but not when they come at the expense of the player not being able to actually comprehend what happened.

It's a real shame, as the rest of the DLC is so, so good - loved seeing the Handyman factory, Fink's private quarters, the way bathyspheres have the same cult status in Rapture as cars do in our world - it's all amazing. Even the gameplay is better than in the original game - I actually felt tense sneaking around the environments, trying to strategically take out all the enemies. If this was the direction Levine would have taken in any further Bioshock games, I'm actually kind of glad he's not going to be personally writing any further installments in the series.

EDIT: I'm also disappointed we didn't go through a tear to System Shock, or perhaps a completely new alternate timeline world, even for a little bit - that would have been amazing.

 

[Easy_D]

Ugh. Why would she sacrifice herself when she's near omnipotent? How does that make sense

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Ugh. Why would she sacrifice herself when she's near omnipotent? How does that make sense

she lost all her "omnipotency" at the beginning of episode 2. remember?

 

[Dragon1893]

Ugh. Why would she sacrifice herself when she's near omnipotent? How does that make sense

She's just a normal person now. I still don't quite understand exactly how that happens though.

 

[Jigorath]

I had fun with the BaS DLC but I was so unsatisfied with the story and all changes it made to canon. I thought the first one was way too short, and the second focused too much on stealth without realizing the invisibility power broke the game. You know, I think at the end of the day I would have preferred more DLC like Clash in the Clouds. Playing through those arenas was fantastic and showed how inventive the combat system was. Add in a co-op system and I could get sucked in for hours.

 

[Zeroth]

she lost all her "omnipotency" at the beginning of episode 2. remember?

She's just a normal person now. I still don't quite understand exactly how that happens though.

The proper question is how an omnipotent being didnt see the big daddy killing her. It requires you to assume she meant to get herself killed in the first place.

 

[Fuchsdh]

The proper question is how an omnipotency didnt see the big daddy killing her. It requires you to assume she meant to get herself killed in the first place.

Yep. It also requires explaining why the Big Daddies are so selectively aggressive in the first place, since apparently it wasn't due to a pair bond that the one in Ep 1 took out Booker. And why is there a random Big Daddy who's not hostile to splicers walking the halls of the department store anyhow (which has presumably been sunk for months anyhow?)

I had fun with the BaS DLC but I was so unsatisfied with the story and all changes it made to canon. I thought the first one was way too short, and the second focused too much on stealth without realizing the invisibility power broke the game. You know, I think at the end of the day I would have preferred more DLC like Clash in the Clouds. Playing through those arenas was fantastic and showed how inventive the combat system was. Add in a co-op system and I could get sucked in for hours.

Yep. Co-op horde modes are awesome. I think it could have been cool even if the second player was Elizabeth and had some of the same constraints as she did in this one--weak melees, smaller ammo, lower HP but faster and able to open the tears.

 

[Dragon1893]

The proper question is how an omnipotent being didnt see the big daddy killing her. It requires you to assume she meant to get herself killed in the first place.

That's my issue. What would she gain from letting herself getting killed though? Only made her job much harder.

 

[Peanut Butter]

The ending of Bioshock Infinite is one of my favorite endings in gaming period, and I just want to pretend like BaS never happened now. lol

I feel the exact same way.

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Ugh. Why would she sacrifice herself when she's near omnipotent? How does that make sense

Love.

Also shes not omnipotent, people. She can travel through the multiverse, that doesn't mean she can just change anything that happens in it all willy nilly.