Support NeoGAF

[Dragon1893]

My brain hurts. This is why I hate time travel. It just makes everything so confusing. I was hoping for some answers regarding the below:-

1) What happened to the Booker from the post credits scene at the end of Bioshock Infinite?

2) Elizabeth referred to BaS protagonist as "the last Comstock". Does that mean she has killed all of them?

3) So the Elizabeth from B:I and BaS died and this new Elizabeth is from another universe? What?

4) So the "Booker" talking to her was actually her memories taking the shape of the only person who was her friend?

5) At the end when Elizabeth was flashing onto the plane and put a hand on Jack... was that real? Also she flashes to this weird place where we see papa Booker from Infinite.. what was that?

6) Did Kevin just ignore the entire Bioshock 2 canon or did I actually see the B2 protagonist big daddy in the hub where Elizabeth runs trying to fix the machines?

7) Why do I feel so miffed at the DLC tying into Bioshock 1? I couldn't care less about Jack.

1) Supposedly that was a version of Booker that never went to the baptism.
2) Yes, that was a version of Comstock that didn't die during the ending of Infinite so she had to go clean up.
3) It's the same Liz, she dies at the end of BaS 1 and for some reason becomes a normal person with some memories of her omniscient self.
4) Edit: forgot this one: she's just talking to herself. The feeling of having Booker with her comforts her. The things he tells her that she wasn't supposed to know are in her mind from the time she was omniscient. She's accessing them through Booker so to speak.
5) She was seeing those things through tears/doors whatever you wanna call'em. I don't remember that second scene you mention.
6)Bioshock 2 wasn't written by Ken so he ignored it.
7) Nobody really cares about Jack, you weren't supposed to.

Keep in mind these are all my own interpretations.

 

[tringworldso]

Thanks for answering my questions, Dragon.

5) She was seeing those things through tears/doors whatever you wanna call'em. I don't remember that second scene you mention.

The scene I'm referring to in question 5 is the same one which happens when Elizabeth flashes to those tears/doors in the plane. It's the scene where we actually see a physical booker model in BaS 2 for the first time who disappears after saying a few things to her and we see Sally there.

Maybe I'm forgetting something from BaS1 but why was Elizabeth so determined in saving Sally? What debt was she talking about?

 

[Tomodachi]

My brain hurts. This is why I hate time travel. It just makes everything so confusing. I was hoping for some answers regarding the below:-

1) What happened to the Booker from the post credits scene at the end of Bioshock Infinite?

2) Elizabeth referred to BaS protagonist as "the last Comstock". Does that mean she has killed all of them?

3) So the Elizabeth from B:I and BaS died and this new Elizabeth is from another universe? What?

4) So the "Booker" talking to her was actually her memories taking the shape of the only person who was her friend?

5) At the end when Elizabeth was flashing onto the plane and put a hand on Jack... was that real? Also she flashes to this weird place where we see papa Booker from Infinite.. what was that?

6) Did Kevin just ignore the entire Bioshock 2 canon or did I actually see the B2 protagonist big daddy in the hub where Elizabeth runs trying to fix the machines?

7) Why do I feel so miffed at the DLC tying into Bioshock 1? I couldn't care less about Jack.

8) What was the point of completing the coded messages side-quest? Elizabeth never brought that up after the "small make-up room" reveal.

1) That's very up to interpretation but my guess is that the Booker we see at the end of Infinite is the father of the Anna who lost her head during the "exchange" with Comstock. Crazy, stricken with guilt, whatever. It's just a glimpse to what BaS would have been about: what happens to that Booker is not something really important to the story since they all are wiped out by Elizabeth anyway at the end of Infinite (except the Rapture Comstock posing as... Booker. Headache yet? ).

2) Yup.

3) I explained my theory in the last page, basically when Elizabeth (or anyone with cross-dimensional experiences. Like the Luceces, who were killed by Fink in a lab explosion) dies she becomes immaterial and can travel at will between the universes without using tears (just like the Luceces do during Infinite, Booker stumbles into them many times). Except Elizabeth decides to give this "power" up and return to the physical world of Rapture to save Sally. The female Lutece says this is somehow possible in a recording, but she just doesn't want to do that because she would lose her "powers" ("mysteries would be mysteries again") along with her twin.

4) Yup.

5) It was "real" as in "she's looking at the scene from an external point of view". She's not physically there. Her reflection in the mirror is the same as she is after being hit by Atlas (bloody face, you can see that in the final CG movie when she gives her hand to Sally).
And no, that wasn't Comstock when she falls from the Fontaine Building model (after using the particle on the ceiling). It's just a goon working with Atlas with a beard. Must admit I too at first mistook him for another Comstock

6) Yup. Bioshock 2 is not canon. But anyway even if it was, would have it mattered? Bioshock 2 happens ten years after Burial at Sea, nothing contradicts its plot.

7) Well it's not about Jack, nothing changes for that character and everything that happens in Bioshock 1. It was just a way to bring the series whole circle. The ending of BaS is the beginning of Bioshock 1, simple as that. You could argue it's a little forced as a connection,but I liked it, it was neat and inspired and a great plot device for 8 more hours of Bioshock goodness.

8) I would have expected something from that as well, a pity it wasn't elaborated more. To be fair Elizabeth would have been at even a greater risk if she revealed to Atlas she had discovered his true identity, so maybe that's why she never mentions it. Considering the player already knew that, I wonder why add that particular detail at all... maybe they just wanted to add an optional goal for the sake of it.

 

[EliCash]

I don't think a game has made be squirm as much as the Atlas / Liz torture scene. That was tough.

 

[Dragon1893]

Thanks for answering my questions, Dragon.


The scene I'm referring to in question 5 is the same one which happens when Elizabeth flashes to those tears/doors in the plane. It's the scene where we actually see a physical booker model in BaS 2 for the first time who disappears after saying a few things to her and we see Sally there.

Maybe I'm forgetting something from BaS1 but why was Elizabeth so determined in saving Sally? What debt was she talking about?

She used Sally to kill Comstock in episode 1 almost burning her alive in the process and then abandoned her. As you can see at the start of episode 2 she's consumed with regret and decides to save her.

3) I explained my theory in the last page, basically when Elizabeth (or anyone with cross-dimensional experiences. Like the Luceces, who were killed by Fink in a lab explosion) dies she becomes immaterial and can travel at will between the universes without using tears (just like the Luceces do during Infinite, Booker stumbles into them many times). Except Elizabeth decides to give this "power" up and return to the physical world of Rapture to save Sally. The female Lutece says this is somehow possible in a recording, but she just doesn't want to do that because she would lose her "powers" ("mysteries would be mysteries again") along with her twin.


8) I would have expected something from that as well, a pity it wasn't elaborated more. To be fair Elizabeth would have been at even a greater risk if she revealed to Atlas she had discovered his true identity, so maybe that's why she never mentions it. Considering the player already knew that, I wonder why add that particular detail at all... maybe they just wanted to add an optional goal for the sake of it.

What would she gain from returning to her "physical" form? It still doesn't make sense to me.

As for the sidequest, it's how Liz finds out Atlas is Fontaine. I think that's good enough to give the quest purpose.

And yeah, that goon totally looked like Comstock lol, I was like wtf?!

I don't think a game has made be squirm as much as the Atlas / Liz torture scene. That was tough.

We recently had a scene in The Walking Dead (season 2 ep 1) that is up there.

The whole thing is just so damn tragic, after Infinite's ending I was hoping for a happier conclusion for Liz.

 

[Fuchsdh]

6) Yup. Bioshock 2 is not canon. But anyway even if it was, would have it mattered? Bioshock 2 happens ten years after Burial at Sea, nothing contradicts its plot.

Um, all of Bioshock 2 is predicated on Suchong dying before the civil war and Gilbert successfully pair bonding Subject Delta with Eleanor. It cannot exist according to this DLC.

 

[Tomodachi]

What would she gain from returning to her "physical" form? It still doesn't make sense to me.

It was the only way she could save Sally, without a physical form she couldn't have saved her, I think you can't interact with the world once you've gone "immaterial" (lol), it's the same reason the Luteces used Booker in Infinite.

That's what the start of BaS2 is all about. She completed her mission (killing the final Comstock), died, became immaterial or whatever. She would have stayed in her fantasy world of Paris or wherever she would have wanted, except guilt came visiting her (the nightmare) and decided to gave her powers up.
Otherwise she would have been (as she claims in Fink's Industries, iirc) just like Comstock, using Sally only for her personal gain (revenge), instead she redeemed herself trying to save the girl and accepting the consequences of it all.

Um, all of Bioshock 2 is predicated on Suchong dying before the civil war and Gilbert successfully pair bonding Subject Delta with Eleanor. It cannot exist according to this DLC.

Suchong did die before the civil war. Elizabeth is tortured with the truth serum for weeks before Atlas threatens to perform the lobotomy on her, so when she witnesses Suchong dying it's still before the civil war, when she wakes up with Atlas the war is almost ended (explosions in the background and all that).
And did Bioshock 2 specify how the bonding between Delta and Eleanor was obtained? I honestly don't remember much about it. Maybe Alexander too realized that love was the answer, or if the exact bonding method is explained in Bioshock 2 (again, i don't recall) maybe there were other ways of obtaining the bond itself.
Anyway you might be right and there might be other details I'm forgetting that negate BS2 being canon. tbh I don't really mind if Bioshock 2 cannot exist, I never considered it canon anyway

 

[Dragon1893]

It was the only way she could save Sally, without a physical form she couldn't have saved her, I think you can't interact with the world once you've gone "immaterial" (lol), it's the same reason the Luteces used Booker in Infinite.

That's what the start of BaS2 is all about. She completed her mission (killing the final Comstock), died, became immaterial or whatever. She would have stayed in her fantasy world of Paris or wherever she would have wanted, except guilt came visiting her (the nightmare) and decided to gave her powers up.
Otherwise she would have been (as she claims in Fink's Industries, iirc) just like Comstock, using Sally only for her personal gain (revenge), instead she redeemed herself trying to save the girl and accepting the consequences of it all.

That means she let herself get killed but we see it happen and it doesn't look like that at all to me.

 

[Tomodachi]

That means she let herself get killed but we see it happen and it doesn't look like that at all to me.

No, she didn't. She didn't have to let herself get killed, in BaS1 she still has physical existence, being killed wasn't part of her plan. At that point she doesn't care a lot about Sally I guess.
It's after being killed that she loses physical form, "goes to Paris" (becomes like the Luteces) but decides to lose her tear-opening, all-seing powers to come back in physical form and save Sally :/

 

[Dragon1893]

No, she didn't. She didn't have to let herself get killed, in BaS1 she still has physical existence, being killed wasn't part of her plan. At that point she doesn't care a lot about Sally I guess.
It's after being killed that she loses physical form, "goes to Paris" (becomes like the Luteces) but decides to lose her tear-opening, all-seing powers to come back in physical form and save Sally :/

Oh, OK, but what a lot of people have issues with is the fact that she let herself get caught off guard like that by the Big Daddy. I guess it could happen but she should've seen it coming.

So after she gets killed she turns into a spirit and retreats into this imaginary Paris she created for herself. Then her regrets about Sally come back to haunt her but in order to return she needs to go back to being a normal human, though she still has some memories of when she was omniscient.
OK, let's roll with that. I guess that voxaphone from Rosalind does support this to some degree. Rosalind didn't want to give up on all that knowledge but Liz couldn't shake the thoughts of Sally so she went through with it.
I guess it would be much harder for a scientist to give up on omniscience.
Liz was always very motivated by her emotions and though she became bitter after the events of Infinite, we saw her while she was innocent and it's not hard to believe that she'd do the right thing, even if Paris was her dream.

Levine just tweeted this, check it out:

http://irrationalgames.com/insider/the-extended-songs-of-burial-at-sea/

 

[TheUsual]

Hopefully I'm not a bit off topic with this question, but it came up after finishing this and thinking about Bioshock. Is Bioshock 2 considered cannon?

EDIT:See the obvious answer above in a previous post.

 

[Fuchsdh]

It was the only way she could save Sally, without a physical form she couldn't have saved her, I think you can't interact with the world once you've gone "immaterial" (lol), it's the same reason the Luteces used Booker in Infinite.

That's what the start of BaS2 is all about. She completed her mission (killing the final Comstock), died, became immaterial or whatever. She would have stayed in her fantasy world of Paris or wherever she would have wanted, except guilt came visiting her (the nightmare) and decided to gave her powers up.
Otherwise she would have been (as she claims in Fink's Industries, iirc) just like Comstock, using Sally only for her personal gain (revenge), instead she redeemed herself trying to save the girl and accepting the consequences of it all.



Suchong did die before the civil war. Elizabeth is tortured with the truth serum for weeks before Atlas threatens to perform the lobotomy on her, so when she witnesses Suchong dying it's still before the civil war, when she wakes up with Atlas the war is almost ended (explosions in the background and all that).
And did Bioshock 2 specify how the bonding between Delta and Eleanor was obtained? I honestly don't remember much about it. Maybe Alexander too realized that love was the answer, or if the exact bonding method is explained in Bioshock 2 (again, i don't recall) maybe there were other ways of obtaining the bond itself.
Anyway you might be right and there might be other details I'm forgetting that negate BS2 being canon. tbh I don't really mind if Bioshock 2 cannot exist, I never considered it canon anyway

You're contradicting yourself. The Civil War starts up immediately after Atlas and his boys arrive--hence all the destruction weeks later when Elizabeth reawakens. It's still going on, hence all the explosions.

Suchong has to have died a good amount of time prior to that (months even) for Gilbert to successfully bond Delta to Eleanor at the time of the New Years Eve attacks. The nature of the bond is never made clear, but it's clearly not composed of warm fuzzy feelings--the lion with a thorn doesn't explain why Big Daddies would die being apart from their paired little sister.

Of course this also brings up the point of why the hell does it take Atlas the better part of a year to get Jack on a plane? In the original story it made much more sense that Jack was a last ditch effort to stop Ryan after Atlas was essentially screwed.

 

[Dragon1893]

I think Bioshock 2 has a very touching story.
Like I said previously, Liz's actions only affected that particular universe she was in. We'll just have to assume that B2 takes place in an alternate universe and not the Rapture from B1 and BaS.
Fontaine could've found another way to bring Jack to Rapture and all those little events that are inconsistent could've played out differently but with the same end result. That's the whole premise of Infinite anyway.
Only way to make it all work in my mind.

Anyway, it was an amazing ride. Rapture and Columbia were 2 of the most fascinating places I've visited in a videogame, there are many moments that will stay with me forever. One of the best things the last generation brought us.

 

[Tomodachi]

You're contradicting yourself. The Civil War starts up immediately after Atlas and his boys arrive--hence all the destruction weeks later when Elizabeth reawakens. It's still going on, hence all the explosions.

Suchong has to have died a good amount of time prior to that (months even) for Gilbert to successfully bond Delta to Eleanor at the time of the New Years Eve attacks. The nature of the bond is never made clear, but it's clearly not composed of warm fuzzy feelings--the lion with a thorn doesn't explain why Big Daddies would die being apart from their paired little sister.

Of course this also brings up the point of why the hell does it take Atlas the better part of a year to get Jack on a plane? In the original story it made much more sense that Jack was a last ditch effort to stop Ryan after Atlas was essentially screwed.

Oh, I see what you mean now. Yeah, not a lot of time for Gilbert to discover the "bonding secret" if Suchong dies right after the civil war starts. And no, I don't think the paw with the thorn stuff is credible in BS2 either. Doesn't even explain the fact the Big Daddies die when apart from their Little Sisters, as you point out.

But then again I'm pretty sure Levine disregarded BS2 as a whole (not even a character or concept from the game mentioned, and he had nothing to do with its development anyway, I can't blame him). I'm starting to think he never even played the game
So the whole attempt at linking BaS and BS2 is pointless from the start.

 

[Brainfreeze]

The main difference between the Alpha Series and the other Big Daddies is the nature of their bond to the Little Sisters. Each Alpha Series was created with an unbreakable physiological bond to a single Little Sister. This bond created a fail-safe enforced by each Little Sister's pheromone signature--an Alpha Series that wandered too far from his bond partner for an extended period of time would lapse into coma or madness.

This bond proved to be too effective, however, as each Big Daddy in the Alpha Series became useless after his Little Sister was killed by attacking Splicers or saved by Brigid Tenenbaum.

So, according to the Bioshock Wiki, the Alpha series is bonded by this psychological/biological method, and the Big Daddies present in Bioshock 1 and 2 are bonded in a different way that was never mentioned in detail.

So it seems that eventually this "thorn in the paw" method became more widespread and a common fix for the Alpha series flaw. I'm not sure how much detail Bioshock 2 goes into about the exact timetables of when this first method was discovered, but it seems possible to me that Subject Delta could still be bonded in the way that game says he is without actually countering what this game shows is true about the newer models.

The only possible issue here is if there was enough time there for Gil Alexander to discover the mind-control method and implement it in time for it to make sense with the Civil War. Maybe he was working on it before Suchong died? Maybe it was something Suchong was even aware of and just wasn't happy with. I don't know, but it doesn't seem definitive to me that this game knocks Bioshock 2 out of canon, especially considering some of the other plot holes it gets away with and still considers to be official.

 

[tringworldso]

Answers

Ahh yesssss, more answers. Thanks a lot, Tomodachi. Goes a long way into clearing up questions!

~~~~~

Btw, I just remembered something about that faux-documentary video that were released way back in October. Fact from Myth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSeF8dkC0MU , is that Sally by any chance??? I mean, who else could recognize Elizabeth from the painting?

 

[Fuchsdh]

So, according to the Bioshock Wiki, the Alpha series is bonded by this psychological/biological method, and the Big Daddies present in Bioshock 1 and 2 are bonded in a different way that was never mentioned in detail.

So it seems that eventually this "thorn in the paw" method became more widespread and a common fix for the Alpha series flaw. I'm not sure how much detail Bioshock 2 goes into about the exact timetables of when this first method was discovered, but it seems possible to me that Subject Delta could still be bonded in the way that game says he is without actually countering what this game shows is true about the newer models.

The only possible issue here is if there was enough time there for Gil Alexander to discover the mind-control method and implement it in time for it to make sense with the Civil War. Maybe he was working on it before Suchong died? Maybe it was something Suchong was even aware of and just wasn't happy with. I don't know, but it doesn't seem definitive to me that this game knocks Bioshock 2 out of canon, especially considering some of the other plot holes it gets away with and still considers to be official.

Gilbert Alexander mentions after taking over where Suchong left off that the bond was fairly weak, which doesn't seem to jive with the treatment we get in BaS--the Big Daddies only reacted when faced with threats to the sister, but otherwise treated them indifferently, which wasn't good enough. The Alpha series essentially overcompensated by making them too dependent on an individual little sister, and then they eventually ended up with the generation of Big Daddies we face in the games.

As for "plot holes", I can't say Bioshock 2 has any I think of off the top of my head. You could consider the shoehorning of Lamb into Rapture's past as a retcon, but it's not a "hole".

(One thing I really liked about it was it also explained the limitations of the Vita Chamber--they wouldn't stop you from dying from a natural cause, they only worked on violent ends.)

Btw, I just remembered something about that faux-documentary video that were released way back in October. Fact from Myth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSeF8dkC0MU , is that Sally by any chance??? I mean, who else could recognize Elizabeth from the painting?

Good catch. I'd say it would probably have to be her. Edit: Also, that reminds me, doing an early 80s Bioshock 3 would be awesome.

 

[SoraanTribal]

Btw, I just remembered something about that faux-documentary video that were released way back in October. Fact from Myth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSeF8dkC0MU , is that Sally by any chance??? I mean, who else could recognize Elizabeth from the painting?

Oh that's really interesting. I definitely think that would be Sally.

 

[Dragon1893]

Ahh yesssss, more answers. Thanks a lot, Tomodachi. Goes a long way into clearing up questions!

~~~~~

Btw, I just remembered something about that faux-documentary video that were released way back in October. Fact from Myth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSeF8dkC0MU , is that Sally by any chance??? I mean, who else could recognize Elizabeth from the painting?

Nice catch, it's definitely her.

 

[Brainfreeze]

As for "plot holes", I can't say Bioshock 2 has any I think of off the top of my head. You could consider the shoehorning of Lamb into Rapture's past as a retcon, but it's not a "hole".

Sorry, bad grammer. I was referring to Burial at Sea's plot holes, which are pretty well documented in this thread. If that game's canon with that many mistakes than I don't think some small timing issues should be enough to keep Bioshock 2 out of canon.

 

[Salamando]

So, according to the Bioshock Wiki, the Alpha series is bonded by this psychological/biological method, and the Big Daddies present in Bioshock 1 and 2 are bonded in a different way that was never mentioned in detail.

So it seems that eventually this "thorn in the paw" method became more widespread and a common fix for the Alpha series flaw. I'm not sure how much detail Bioshock 2 goes into about the exact timetables of when this first method was discovered, but it seems possible to me that Subject Delta could still be bonded in the way that game says he is without actually countering what this game shows is true about the newer models.

The only possible issue here is if there was enough time there for Gil Alexander to discover the mind-control method and implement it in time for it to make sense with the Civil War. Maybe he was working on it before Suchong died? Maybe it was something Suchong was even aware of and just wasn't happy with. I don't know, but it doesn't seem definitive to me that this game knocks Bioshock 2 out of canon, especially considering some of the other plot holes it gets away with and still considers to be official.

Before Burial at sea, did we have any actual indication of when Suchong died? That's one of the things I'm trying to work out now. In Bioshock 2, Delta is shot in 1958 during the New Years celebration. That means prior to that Suchong would've been accidentally killed and Gil worked on pair bonding. However Burial has Suchong dying after the New Years riots.

As for Big Daddy bonding, apart from the entire Big Daddies are chemically dependent on Little Sister's thing in Burial, Bioshock had us gathering Big Daddy pheromones as part of our quest to turn into one. Makes sense that way, Big Daddies become compatible with every Little Sister (and vice versa), instead of just a strong one-on-one relationship.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Before Burial at sea, did we have any actual indication of when Suchong died? That's one of the things I'm trying to work out now. In Bioshock 2, Delta is shot in 1958 during the New Years celebration. That means prior to that Suchong would've been accidentally killed and Gil worked on pair bonding. However Burial has Suchong dying after the New Years riots.

As for Big Daddy bonding, apart from the entire Big Daddies are chemically dependent on Little Sister's thing in Burial, Bioshock had us gathering Big Daddy pheromones as part of our quest to turn into one. Makes sense that way, Big Daddies become compatible with every Little Sister (and vice versa), instead of just a strong one-on-one relationship.

Oh shoot, I forgot all about becoming a big daddy in Bioshock 1.

Yeah okay they fucked up everything with that "thorn in the paw" thing. I'll accept it for songbird, but I have no idea what's going on with the big daddies now.

And as for when Suchong died, we always knew it was immediately before/during the civil war. That's the reason his body was left with the drill in him like that.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Oh shoot, I forgot all about becoming a big daddy in Bioshock 1.

Yeah okay they fucked up everything with that "thorn in the paw" thing. I'll accept it for songbird, but I have no idea what's going on with the big daddies now.

And as for when Suchong died, we always knew it was immediately before/during the civil war. That's the reason his body was left with the drill in him like that.

Well, the fact that he was left that way is part of what's odd about Bioshock. People are left where they died because it's easier for the player to parse out what happened. It doesn't make sense Suchong would be left there at the beginning of the civil war, nor does McClintock's body being left in Atlas' room (that one always got me--what did Fontaine say to other people to explain her death that would pretty much be obvious it was him? She was actually a traitor? ) There's also the fact that Atlas has apparently only one sane guy left on his side who gets killed off in the second cutscene, but these things are just sort of expediencies of game storytelling.

 

[Salamando]

Oh shoot, I forgot all about becoming a big daddy in Bioshock 1.

Yeah okay they fucked up everything with that "thorn in the paw" thing. I'll accept it for songbird, but I have no idea what's going on with the big daddies now.

And as for when Suchong died, we always knew it was immediately before/during the civil war. That's the reason his body was left with the drill in him like that.

Even the Songbird thing...fully expected it to be something Fink stole from Suchong. Songbird was controlled via the statues' pipe whistles. Thought that was more of a "Would you Kindly" treatment than it was the Big Daddy's guardian setup.

Rapture just didn't seem to know what to do with corpses. Fact that a Little Sister/Big Daddy program was needed pre-riots at all infers bodies were all over Rapture.

 

[Tomodachi]

In a diary Suchong says that Little Sisters like the smell of Big Daddies but he doesn't know why, I don't think the fact you have to get pheromones is necessary for the bonding with Little Sisters. You just have to get it to be credible as a Big Daddy so the Little Sisters won't get scared.

Also, don't forget the Little Sisters helping Jack are already "cured" by Jack and nursed by Tenenbaum, they're just asked by her to help him get to Fontaine. There's no "pairing" involved. So the "thorn in the paw" still stands.

What others plot holes are there?

 

[ichtyander]

No, she didn't. She didn't have to let herself get killed, in BaS1 she still has physical existence, being killed wasn't part of her plan. At that point she doesn't care a lot about Sally I guess.
It's after being killed that she loses physical form, "goes to Paris" (becomes like the Luteces) but decides to lose her tear-opening, all-seing powers to come back in physical form and save Sally :/

The only way the whole "being killed by a Big Daddy" thing makes sense is if Elizabeth chose a physical form even before entering Rapture, meaning that when she enters detective Booker's office she's already in corporeal form. So during BaS Ep1 she's physically there, manipulates Booker into getting killed but also gets killed herself, then "goes to Paris" and wakes up as a mortal with a full pinky. I mean, you can't kill the Luteces and Elizabeth becomes like them (or even more) at the end of Infinite. Although reading what I just wrote doesn't make that much more sense... Damn.

I'm just not sure why some people directly assume that Elizabeth arranged Booker's death, jumped back into fairytale land, felt bad about Sally, went back to the moment of Rapture Booker's death, got killed (rammed into a wall no less) and immediately chose to give up her mortality (while actually dead, whatever that means) and appear on the floor next to Booker's corpse only moments after his death. I mean, the Paris scene is chronologically between Elizabeth's death and her resurrection, right?

 

[Dragon1893]

Just completed it on 1998, but...the ending was so stupid.

I mean, I liked the plot a lot, the way it's a prequel/sequel to Bioshock, but that ending...why Elizabeth died?

She has no weapon, ok, but there are only three men, with no weapons. And she has some plasmids with her. She could just use those on Atlas, take the child and go away...

The fact she wants to pay her debt by giving her life at all costs...I don't know.

It's pretty obvious that she never had any intention of fighting back, at that point she seems to be so tired of it all that she chooses to die.
I wish she got a happier ending.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

.

 

[Dragon1893]

Yeah that got me as well. I didn't go in expecting moments like that. Courtnee's voice acting was perfect.

She was incredible, to be honest words fail me to describe her performance. And her singing during the credits... goddamn...

 

[Fuu]

I don't think a game has made be squirm as much as the Atlas / Liz torture scene. That was tough.

Just beat the DLC and came here to post this. I had to take a few minutes after that because I was feeling physically sick.

Still digesting everything, I'll read through the thread later.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Absolutely. I was on my third beer by the time the credits rolled. Dem feels. Enough can't be said on how much she and Troy contributed to Infinite and BaS. I couldn't imagine the game having anywhere near the same level of impact on me personally without both of them playing their respective roles.

As a side note, the only thing I would have done differently in Ken's position would be to have included an alternate happier/more open ending into BaS for those that completed it in 1998 mode. I actually like the ending we got but I would have preferred my last moments spent with Booker/Elizabeth (and in the Bioshock universe) to have ended on a positive note after all of the time invested. Even more so considering the fact that Irrational is no more. That's a really minor gripe though. All up Infinite was an absolutely amazing ride for me and a defining moment for this gen.

I really wouldn't have minded another full fledged game starring Elizabeth, they were on to a winner with that character.

 

[iShouldGoPro]

About to stream the last part of this DLC
TUNE IN

www.twitch.tv/monkeydloufy

come support me, Gaf!

 

[Jigorath]

Just completed it on 1998, but...the ending was so stupid.

I mean, I liked the plot a lot, the way it's a prequel/sequel to Bioshock, but that ending...why Elizabeth died?

She has no weapon, ok, but there are only three men, with no weapons. And she has some plasmids with her. She could just use those on Atlas, take the child and go away...

The fact she wants to pay her debt by giving her life at all costs...I don't know.

I don't get it either. I guess she was content with Jack killing Atlas but I don't understand why she just didn't do it herself.

 

[SoraanTribal]

I probably would have been ok with her death if they had shown some extra scenes after that relating to Booker and Elizabeth. I don't know what the scene could have been... Maybe if it was just a few quick shots of some of the scenes from Infinite flashing before her eyes. Maybe ending with the post-credits scene of Booker going into Anna's room and actually looking inside the crib to see Anna with her smiling back at the camera. I think I would have liked that.

 

[catabarez]

I don't get it either. I guess she was content with Jack killing Atlas but I don't understand why she just didn't do it herself.

I think the point was for Sally to be safe Rapture had to fall.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Also I loved the walk up to this scene.

 

[Punjicide]

I think the point was for Sally to be safe Rapture had to fall.

That's what I was thinking. With either Ryan or Fontaine running Rapture, the Little Sisters would continue to be exploited. Rapture had to fall to finally put an end to it.

 

[Fuu]

Also I loved the walk up to this scene.

Yeah, a lot of times in the Bioshock games I start walking slower to take it all in, be it an ongoing situation or the various details in a room, and BaS 2 was chock-full of those moments for me. It's kind of like I'm there myself and I start walking more carefully.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Yeah, a lot of times in the Bioshock games I start walking slower to take it all in, be it an ongoing situation or the various details in a room, and BaS 2 was chock-full of those moments for me. It's kind of like there myself and I start walking more carefully.

They also force you to walk slower

I think the point was for Sally to be safe Rapture had to fall.

Basically means she damned all the other innocents of Rapture in the process, which is pretty screwed up.

 

[Fuu]

They also force you to walk slower

Yep! But even in moments where I'm still able to run I find myself lingering. Although I guess that happened a lot more in BaS 2 from the simple fact the game encourages stealth, haha.

 

[Kyou]

Basically means she damned all the other innocents of Rapture in the process, which is pretty screwed up.

But at least she saved the baby the baby the baby

 

[MoGamesXNA]

.

 

[Jack Scofield]

I loved it. I don't really care how it well it fits into BioShock 1, but I thought it was kind of strange how this is obviously an alternate Rapture than the one from BioShock 1, but they still tried tying things together (Suchong's death, everything to do with Jack, etc.). They try to imply that what happens in this episode directly leads into the original game, but they also make it clear that this isn't the same Rapture as before. Strange.

Absolutely beautiful art design, though that's to be expected from this team. I love love love the design of Rapture, and frankly traveling to Columbia midway through this episode just made me appreciate the atmosphere of Rapture that much more.

Also, I'm surprised that the whole Handyman laboratory was completely optional. I thought they would have us fetch something in there.

And that lobotomy scene, yeesh, tough to watch.

 

[Salamando]

I mean, I liked the plot a lot, the way it's a prequel/sequel to Bioshock, but that ending...why Elizabeth died?

She has no weapon, ok, but there are only three men, with no weapons. And she has some plasmids with her. She could just use those on Atlas, take the child and go away...

The fact she wants to pay her debt by giving her life at all costs...I don't know.

She kills Atlas. She hasn't rescued Sally, she's rescued a little sister. To fully rescue Sally she'd need to find Tenenbaum and have the slug removed. Possible? Yes, but Elizabeth didn't know that. The only path she knew of where Sally would live happily ever after was the one she'd have to sacrifice herself for.

Then there's the entire constants and variables angle. Infinite, BaS1 and 2...all end with the protagonist getting killed because they're trying to save a little girl put into a bad spot by Comstock.

 

[utsavinheaven]

1 question tho,since Eli is all knowing,for burial at sea part 1,did she not know that her revenge would be her end.she could have tried a different outcome?

 

[A-V-B]

She kills Atlas.

Not... really. Fontaine never would've taken over without Liz (ugh) making sure he could. And considering how important an event it was, someone else would've killed Fontaine if not Jack. He might've even just died on his own with no way out of Rapture prison.

 

[doniewhalberg]

Finished it. In some ways, it was everything I've loved about Bioshock, in someways it's everything I've hate. I don't really like how the multidimension hopping came to define the series plot, but I do like the character work. At the end of Bioshock Infinite I had a fair level of dissatisfaction stemming form the fact I am very character driven in my enjoyment of fiction. For all the fancy plot twists, if you wipe away the characters I took the journey with, what am I left to care about? So making it that Elizabeth survived as an anomoly and did some tangeable stuff and grew as a character from her experiences in the original game is a huge plus for me. Making it feel like Booker and Elizabeth lived and died and learned for something is a huge plus for me. Making Rapture and Columbia so intertwined leaves me kind of cold. I liked the conceptual links that were revealed in Infinite. It felt more clever and satisfying to just say "There is always a lighthouse;a man; a girl to protect; a city" in the way they did, than to literally make it that tears in reality meant songbird development affected big daddy development and so on. So I guess I like the character journey and thematic resolution, but not so much the actual scifi plot happening that they used to illustrate and explore those things. The DLC fixes a few things for me, but in general, I think I prefer to just think of the two games as they were without this DLC. It was an interesting series though, and I appreciate it a lot for sure.

 

[tringworldso]

I probably would have been ok with her death if they had shown some extra scenes after that relating to Booker and Elizabeth.

Exactly the feeling I got. Seeing Jack submerge didn't really feel all that great or have any emotional resonance. It was just a "everything comes full circle" moment.

But at least she saved the baby the baby the baby

Ohhh!

So I guess I like the character journey and thematic resolution, but not so much the actual scifi plot happening that they used to illustrate and explore those things. The DLC fixes a few things for me, but in general, I think I prefer to just think of the two games as they were without this DLC. It was an interesting series though, and I appreciate it a lot for sure.

Well said, totally agree with you here.

~~~~~~

The fetch quests in BaS part 2 reminded me of Bioshock 1 fetch quests (wonder if it was intentional). Although it does make me feel like playing through Infinite and forgetting BaS ever existed. But I don't know if I have it in me to face the mindhump of an ending of Infinite again. Btw, did Elizabeth ever call Booker her dad?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Why was Atlas an Aussie-guy at first and then he was Fontaine? I thought Fontaine was a bald guy?


Or when did Fontaine die and Atlas overtook his identity? Wasn't somewhere in Bioshock 1?

Like the Luceces, who were killed by Fink in a lab explosion)

What, when did this happen?