this Comstock escaped Elizabeth's purge because he wasn't in a Comstock universe anymore. She collapsed all of those by murdering Booker before he could become Comstock. But a Comstock already in another universe (Rapture) was safe. And that's why she's there now, to mop up.
I don't think anyone's arguing the story makes absolutely no sense, just that the whole "it's a multiverse!" Justification for things gets real old, real quick.
There's no reason for Infinite's interpretation of parallel universes to result both in killing all of the Comstock's, but then still leaving a Booker with Anna, and still leaving Constock in Rapture. Ultimately you have to hand-wave and say "time travel, whatever" and that's a disappointing and lame way of telling stories.
The amount of telegraphing of the endgame in the plot got old fast as well. Really, I'm going to face a big daddy and the girl is a little sister? Shocker.
Was it possible to find shock jockey? I looked all over, and thought I explored everything, but there were two rooms I couldn't access because I didn't have SJ.
Was it possible to find shock jockey? I looked all over, and thought I explored everything, but there were two rooms I couldn't access because I didn't have SJ.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who had problems finding Bucking Bronco...I mean, it's in the game, right? I saw upgrades for it. I was wondering if it was a glitch and it should have been one of the three plasmids you started with, but... I'm not sure. Shock Jockey was easy to find if you explored everywhere before continuing on with the main story (it also gave you a piece of gear if you shocked the elevator that was broken), but... I'm not sure about Bucking Bronco. It was one of my favorites in Infinite.
I played for about 45 minutes last night. I did a lot of exploration. So far I got about ten minutes into the part where combat starts. It was fun. Worth purchasing the Season Pass.
I have to say even though, I love Rapture (its first iteration is the best setting this gen), and I enjoyed Rapture before the fall. It's surprising to me that I miss the fact that we're not seeing more of Columbia in the DLC.
this Comstock escaped Elizabeth's purge because he wasn't in a Comstock universe anymore. She collapsed all of those by murdering Booker before he could become Comstock. But a Comstock already in another universe (Rapture) was safe. And that's why she's there now, to mop up.
That clears up a few questions, but one still remains:
Why would adult Elizabeth be there at the moment of the baby Anna going through the tear? I'm still not sure I understand that part unless she wasn't really there, and Elizabeth was just bleeding into the memory for dramatic purposes (to mirror what was happening in Rapture at that moment). But that seems like a kind of flimsy excuse to have her there (in her old outfit, too). The other only reason I can think of is she tried going back to that point in time to stop it from happening, but failed, so she went to Rapture to kill Comstock.
Anyways, now that I've had some time to think about the DLC as a whole, my impressions are still very positive and well worth the money for me (took me between 4-5 hours to beat and it was a great experience).
That clears up a few questions, but one still remains:
Why would adult Elizabeth be there at the moment of the baby Anna going through the tear? I'm still not sure I understand that part unless she wasn't really there, and Elizabeth was just bleeding into the memory for dramatic purposes (to mirror what was happening in Rapture at that moment). But that seems like a kind of flimsy excuse to have her there (in her old outfit, too). The other only reason I can think of is she tried going back to that point in time to stop it from happening, but failed, so she went to Rapture to kill Comstock.
Anyways, now that I've had some time to think about the DLC as a whole, my impressions are still very positive and well worth the money for me (took me between 4-5 hours to beat and it was a great experience).
Regardless of critical consensus and length I'm still way more psyched to play this DLC than any next gen launch game. Finished 1999 mode yesterday in anticipation, can't hardly wait!
Good articulation on how the compromises in gameplay don't really work.
To me the most striking thing is how the before Rapture... Doesn't really feel like Rapture should, it's really just underwater Columbia reskinned.
Also, why did they change Sander Cohen's voice? He was a lot creepier the first time around... Also
whats with the gay couples? In the first Bioshock there were a lot of slights that part of Cohen's perversions were that he was a homosexual as well as the whole plastering and killing. It doesn't seem like homosexuality was actually accepted, despite the supposed escape from morality. It felt like trying to be more progressive despite the setting.
It's funny. I've gone from defending/enjoying Infinite when it released to...well, not enjoying much of it at all since the DLC.
I haven't finished the game, so take this with a grain of salt, but for me it's a lot of little problems. I can't choose where I save, so when I turn of the game I have no idea where I'll resume it. I can't hack turrets permanently, so I either have to destroy them, avoid them while risking me getting shot, or waste Eve keeping them friendly when I need to. The enemy feedback is poor with none of the intricacies of the first two BioShock's to make up for it (different ammo, upgradeable weapons with new skins, unable to hold your own Adam/Eve in reserve). Limited skyhook use, no tears...
Also, why did they change Sander Cohen's voice? He was a lot creepier the first time around... Also
whats with the gay couples? In the first Bioshock there were a lot of slights that part of Cohen's perversions were that he was a homosexual as well as the whole plastering and killing. It doesn't seem like homosexuality was actually accepted, despite the supposed escape from morality. It felt like trying to be more progressive despite the setting.
I'm guessing they simply couldn't find/hire the actors again. They changed Suchong's voice too, I believe, and it sounds a lot worse off. I'm partially willing to blame this simply on how old Bioshock 1 is now, and how everyone might have moved on from that, but given that Crazy Fat Ethel 2 managed to get its lead star back, I have doubts. It's old, but not that old.
As for your second point,
obviously I disbelieve that this Rapture is built on objectivist theory as it should be, but it if were, it would lead to interesting developments. There was a whole Wikipedia article on objectivism and homosexuality, though it would be more accurate to merely narrow it down to Ayn Rand and homosexuality, as few other objectivists seem to agree with her on this. Her ultimate view is that while she disapproves of homosexuality and thinks its evil, she still opted to believe that they deserve the same liberties in both private and public sectors. She didn't like it, but was willing to swallow her pride so as to maintain integrity in her ultimate political position. So, in a way, the inclusion of gay couples in its ham-fisted state makes sense. But that's only if you think the Rapture in Burial At Sea is consistent with the Rapture in Bioshock 1. And I don't. Then again, it's not like this Rapture is especially well defined anyway. It could be a bigoted society or it could be as open as anything. It could judge a person based on the arbitrary value on their ability to make a turkey sub so well is it defined.
That clears up a few questions, but one still remains:
Why would adult Elizabeth be there at the moment of the baby Anna going through the tear? I'm still not sure I understand that part unless she wasn't really there, and Elizabeth was just bleeding into the memory for dramatic purposes (to mirror what was happening in Rapture at that moment). But that seems like a kind of flimsy excuse to have her there (in her old outfit, too). The other only reason I can think of is she tried going back to that point in time to stop it from happening, but failed, so she went to Rapture to kill Comstock.
Anyways, now that I've had some time to think about the DLC as a whole, my impressions are still very positive and well worth the money for me (took me between 4-5 hours to beat and it was a great experience).
I'm pretty sure it's your first guess. It shows him that she knows what happened, that she saw it.
Was it possible to find shock jockey? I looked all over, and thought I explored everything, but there were two rooms I couldn't access because I didn't have SJ.
It was very easy to find, you must've completely missed the area where it is. As you said that also stopped you from entering certain rooms.
I had just enough lockpicks to open everything, the main game had a ton to spare. Also less ammo and supplies compared to the main game. The new weapon is OP like hell but you only get it near the end.
Before playing this I was thinking that the terms skyline and skyhook wouldn't make sense, glad they thought of that.
As for their presence, keep in mind that this isn't the same Rapture from previous games so naturally there are differences.
Comstock and her were talking or replying to each other at least. Elizabeth said "She's not your daughter!" and Comstock replied "She IS my daughter!" or something like that. And that lead me to believe she was physically there at the moment. Or.. like I said earlier, she was just bleeding into his memories of the scene and they were saying all that stuff at Rapture, but I don't know, lol.
Comstock and her were talking or replying to each other at least. Elizabeth said "She's not your daughter!" and Comstock replied "She IS my daughter!" or something like that. And that lead me to believe she was physically there at the moment. Or.. like I said earlier, she was just bleeding into his memories of the scene and they were saying all that stuff at Rapture, but I don't know, lol.
I'm guessing they simply couldn't find/hire the actors again. They changed Suchong's voice too, I believe, and it sounds a lot worse off. I'm partially willing to blame this simply on how old Bioshock 1 is now, and how everyone might have moved on from that, but given that Crazy Fat Ethel 2 managed to get its lead star back, I have doubts. It's old, but not that old.
As for your second point,
obviously I disbelieve that this Rapture is built on objectivist theory as it should be, but it if were, it would lead to interesting developments. There was a whole Wikipedia article on objectivism and homosexuality, though it would be more accurate to merely narrow it down to Ayn Rand and homosexuality, as few other objectivists seem to agree with her on this. Her ultimate view is that while she disapproves of homosexuality and thinks its evil, she still opted to believe that they deserve the same liberties in both private and public sectors. She didn't like it, but was willing to swallow her pride so as to maintain integrity in her ultimate political position. So, in a way, the inclusion of gay couples in its ham-fisted state makes sense. But that's only if you think the Rapture in Burial At Sea is consistent with the Rapture in Bioshock 1. And I don't. Then again, it's not like this Rapture is especially well defined anyway. It could be a bigoted society or it could be as open as anything. It could judge a person based on the arbitrary value on their ability to make a turkey sub so well is it defined.
implement the mechanics from Bioshock 1 and 2 (EVE hypo's, health kits & hypos in inventory, original plasmids, etc). Just ripping everything from Infinite doesn't really work, particularly when it goes so far as "Oh, it's a skyhoo- *cough* wait what?" No. While this stuff could be and is probably explained as it being a different Rapture/tears, it just doesn't feel right.
implement the mechanics from Bioshock 1 and 2 (EVE hypo's, health kits & hypos in inventory, original plasmids, etc). Just ripping everything from Infinite doesn't really work, particularly when it goes so far as "Oh, it's a skyhoo- *cough* wait what?" No. While this stuff could be and is probably explained as it being a different Rapture/tears, it just doesn't feel right.
I'm not sure I follow. It would have been entirely possible to implement the aforementioned mechanics, just as the weapon wheel made a return. It wasn't like they were limited from a technical perspective.
Incidentally, anyone else disappointed with the lack of an
animation after picking up Old Man Winter for the first time?
Finished it yesterday and I have to say I liked it. They did a good job of not making it as linear as the main game or as easy for that matter. The new enemies made switching up more important in battle and the lack of ammo had me constantly thinking how I approach enemies in a given room.
The only negative I really have is the length and the lack of a chance to change my brightness as some of the later areas became a little to dark to change on my system. Hope they make the second episode better from here as I'm not sure how well Liz will handle combat. Even on normal enemies were shredding me apart from time to time so we can only guess how she'll fair unless she has those time powers make her OP.
I wonder why you get so many lock picks towards the end of the game with nothing to use them on. Where were they when I needed to open that 3 pick door and safe near the start? :<
Just finished it and enjoyed it thoroughly. The shift from explorathon to shootathon was jarring, but damn if Rapture wasn't looking stunning. And [ending spoilers]
man, the ending was pretty brutal.
I thought the 'fetch quest' part was
a good way of letting the player know that this Elizabeth is a tricksy, manipulative woman.
It's the little things in games like this that start grating on me; they're not necessarily greater sins than other games, but because I don't enjoy the experience as much they bother me more.
Like
Why the hell did the department store come with all those guns in ammo? The fact that random supplies were ferreted around made a lot more sense in the original BioShock, but not only does Ryan just sinking the department store filled with people he's apparently rounded up and we've never heard about seem odd, but the fact that they're armed seemed really odd too. I suppose they could have been in there previously armed, but it seems just way too convenient and unlikely considering Ryan had time to convert it into a prison. Why didn't he just hang them all?
So I just finished it, and I don't know what to make of the plot in this DLC. To me it seems to be undermining a lot of the original Infinite ending along with what I liked about it.
In the ending of Infinite Elizabeth drowns Booker at the baptism. This is to cause a paradox, because a child in the past can't kill their own parent before they are born. By causing this paradox, the universe collapses every "Comstock" universe because the only way Elizabeth is "born" is because of Comstock kidnapping her. In the after the credits ending of the game you see our Booker (no longer dead due to timeline correction) waking up and checking to find Anna.
Basically what I thought the ending was, was that by causing the paradox Booker and Elizabeth are reunited in a corrected timeline, thus letting them live their lives without Comstock's intervention, but the DLC changes that ending. With Elizabeth present, that would seem to imply that Anna isn't in her crib back in Booker's timeline, or somehow Anna is there and Elizabeth simply exists outside of any reality due to her powers essentially creating a clone in her place.
I read up the Eurogamer article about the ending, and I guess I can believe that somehow one Comstock escaped the purge so Elizabeth wants to finish the job. I can also understand how Elizabeth was able to track down Comstock due to being able to see "all the doors" as well as being there at the time of the kidnapping. What I don't understand is, why was Elizabeth there during Anna's kidnapping in that specific timeline? Also, why go through this trouble to rescue Sally if she just wanted to burn her alive, unless the only reason Elizabeth did all this is because she is a cold-hearted bitch at this point who wanted to ruin Comstock emotionally and in the most violent way possible. Also was Sally even in the vent? She seemed to disappear as Comstock had a meltdown so I'm not sure if she is already dead and Comstock is just imagining things or what. Also guessing that second Big Daddy was just one from another timeline that Elizabeth pulled out of a tear right?
I sincerely hope Episode 2 provides a lot more clarity into the matter.
I think it was pretty easy to find, and worked wonders against the ice guys with a gun combo. I didn't find all the audio logs though. As for the DLC itself, I liked the exploration in the beginning, but got fed up with the constant firefights later on, much like in the mother game as well. It was nice to visit Rapture again, and see it in its former glory.
Well the DLC is planned for 2014 so I think they've got time, especially if the basic mechanics remain the same as this one--then it's just basically a lot of art and scripting resources.
I've been thinking about it, and I figure that Ep 2 has to be set soon after this--it would make a lot more sense gameplay-wise if the point of playing while Elizabeth is more avoiding fights and dealing with lone individuals using limited armaments, and that makes a lot of sense for a early Civil War Rapture.
(Plus, fights with Atlas v. Ryan forces would be really interesting to see---the Vox vs. Founders battles were really minor in Infinite, and the Flood vs. Covenant vs. Forerunners vs. Chief battles in Halo games were one of the highlights.)
Would give a greater chance to scratch the exploration in pre-ruins Rapture, and some actually dramatically different combat (or lack of it) in the sandbox.
I'm not sure I follow. It would have been entirely possible to implement the aforementioned mechanics, just as the weapon wheel made a return. It wasn't like they were limited from a technical perspective.
Incidentally, anyone else disappointed with the lack of an
animation after picking up Old Man Winter for the first time?
This is an expansion of infinite so it should play like infinite. Changing the rules in the middle of the game would be jarring for the player. It's why they kept the skylines/skyhook, they can't just throw them away since they are a fundamental part of infinite's gameplay. This is how Bioshock infinite plays and BAS is a part of it, regardless of the setting.
They did listen to fan feedback regarding the weapon limit but that isn't nearly as impactful as suddenly allowing players to carry around health packs or eve hypos, which would be a significant departure from the main game's gameplay design.
Well the DLC is planned for 2014 so I think they've got time, especially if the basic mechanics remain the same as this one--then it's just basically a lot of art and scripting resources.
I've been thinking about it, and I figure that Ep 2 has to be set soon after this--it would make a lot more sense gameplay-wise if the point of playing while Elizabeth is more avoiding fights and dealing with lone individuals using limited armaments, and that makes a lot of sense for a early Civil War Rapture.
(Plus, fights with Atlas v. Ryan forces would be really interesting to see---the Vox vs. Founders battles were really minor in Infinite, and the Flood vs. Covenant vs. Forerunners vs. Chief battles in Halo games were one of the highlights.)
Would give a greater chance to scratch the exploration in pre-ruins Rapture, and some actually dramatically different combat (or lack of it) in the sandbox.
Also, why did they change Sander Cohen's voice? He was a lot creepier the first time around... Also
whats with the gay couples? In the first Bioshock there were a lot of slights that part of Cohen's perversions were that he was a homosexual as well as the whole plastering and killing. It doesn't seem like homosexuality was actually accepted, despite the supposed escape from morality. It felt like trying to be more progressive despite the setting.
the dude at Cohen's place said you have to have a ask to enter.
It's probably because I'm more tired than anything, but I didn't feel like going on.
Stylistically, artistically, and lighting, it's astounding. The rest...well, to be honest I'm kind of bored. I feel like we've been doing this "come to this city and explore this area before the action starts" too many times (it happened in BioShock, Infinite, and now BaS). On this third time I feel like everything is simply going through the motions. When I saw that
I had to do a fetch quest, I thought to myself, "I've already done fetch quests in Rapture, and if you're going to give me another one at least give me some sort of interesting gameplay mechanic..." do something different with it.
It's funny. I've gone from defending/enjoying Infinite when it released to...well, not enjoying much of it at all since the DLC.
I haven't finished the game, so take this with a grain of salt, but for me it's a lot of little problems. I can't choose where I save, so when I turn of the game I have no idea where I'll resume it. I can't hack turrets permanently, so I either have to destroy them, avoid them while risking me getting shot, or waste Eve keeping them friendly when I need to. The enemy feedback is poor with none of the intricacies of the first two BioShock's to make up for it (different ammo, upgradeable weapons with new skins, unable to hold your own Adam/Eve in reserve). Limited skyhook use, no tears...
Started playing this on Hard mode today...do I just suck, or is the difficulty out of whack a bit? Cleared Infinite on 1999 mode with fewer deaths so far. Ammo's damn stingy and not nearly as effective as it needs to be.
By far, the most disappointing thing about the DLC was that we didn't actually see Rapture descend into civil war. I can't remember for sure if this was implied, but I had it in my head that we'd get to see the large-scale fighting in Rapture break out. When we entered a bathysphere to go to a place where people were already spliced up and crazy, I felt...well...robbed. Like it was a cheap way to introduce fighting into the game.
By far, the most disappointing thing about the DLC was that we didn't actually see Rapture descend into civil war. I can't remember for sure if this was implied, but I had it in my head that we'd get to see the large-scale fighting in Rapture break out. When we entered a bathysphere to go to a place where people were already spliced up and crazy, I felt...well...robbed. Like it was a cheap way to introduce fighting into the game.
Did it ever explain why eve and plasmids were consumable in this Rapture rather than being injected? Thought Ken said there was a cool reason for this, but I must have missed it.
