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[Ce-Lin]

and I'd pay good money to have Booker + Liz playing Bioshock 1 and tying both games somehow, same "tonics" and weapons and gunplay as Infinite, the part of the ending showing Rapture looked ridiculous, as ridiculous better compared to good old Bioshock... those textures, lighting, shadows... do it Ken, you know you want to.

 

[rakhir]

I was absolutely emotionally drained after the last few hours of the game. I've never cried after a game ended, but i was a wreck after this game.
I've cared so much about Elizabeth for the whole game, I felt lonely when she wasn't around. I've even felt real anger when they tortured her and just murdered everyone that was on my way to her, even the scientist that begged for their lives.

I'm astonished at the things they've accomplished in this game.

 

[Overdoziz]

My most mindblowing thing was the use of the choices you make during the game (the raffle, coin toss, brooch) to turn a perceived weakness of the game into one of its greatest strengths for storytelling.

Bioshock 1 did this with your linear route through Rapture and limited options to progress tying in with the use of the "would you kindly" trigger-phrase, and I was hoping this would have a similarly impressive use of mechanics as metaphor. It was only after the credits rolled I got it.

Just like how Booker choosing not to be baptised didn't stop the ultimate fate of Comstock existing, your choices don't affect what actually happens with the story. No matter how many times you play through the game and make different choices, the outcome is always the same, because every choice you make creates a new alternate universe where you chose differently.

What would usually be open to criticsm (ie. that your choices are meaningless, you can't affect the story, and everything happens the same each time you play it) is fully embraced as it enforces the point the game is trying to make at the climax: The only way to stop Comstock is to never make the choice.

The only way to stop it all from happening is to not play the game.

I love this thread so much.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

I love this thread so much.

It doesn't love you.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

It doesn't love you.

Maybe in an alternate dimension, like the one where OddOne really DOES love you

 

[Overdoziz]

It doesn't love you.

Heathen.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I feel I need to quote Robin Williams here describing his character who has PTSD in The Fisher King on Inside the Actors Studio:

"You're playing a character who is so vulnerable, he's created another person; When you have PTSD, it's an incident so traumatic that you create another being, and the only way to get back to who you are is to regress."

This description matches Comstock to an absolute tee.

Nice find.

 

[Andrew.]

I was thinking about this and I thought it would be really easy to make a mode where there are various voxaphones scattered about the world narrated by the development staff which explains how they built the game. It would of been a cool way to do developer commentary while still being part of the world and a great way to experience the game for a second playthrough.

Some great examples of dev. commentary in games:

Portal 2
Alan Wake

any others?

Half Life 2

 

[CrichtonKicks]

The Chen Lin part was the moment the game became quite a stale, almost like any other shooter. It went upwards when Fitzroy got killed by Elizabeth.

IGN were not kidding that the middle portion of the game just dragged on too much. There was no need for such a thing.

I really liked that portion of the game because that's when it really started to deal with the multiverse stuff. With a lot of works with multiverses or that old video game staple of dual worlds it's easy to view one of the of the worlds as the "correct" one and in that middle portion of the game I kept expecting that they would eventually get back to the original timeline (Booker clearly expected that as well). It was only at the end of that segment where it became clear that they would never return to the timeline they started with where the Vox needed Chen's weapons that I appreciated Infinite's approach to the multiverse and that laid a lot of ground work for the second half of the game.

I also liked how they used those concepts to effectively do a time skip without any time passing for Booker and Elizabeth. In that way we were able to see Columbia before and after the revolution without the need to either do a flash-forward or have the revolution proceed at an unreasonably fast pace.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Maybe in an alternate dimension, like the one where OddOne really DOES love you

We need to make sure that never happens.

 

[Overdoziz]

We need to make sure that never happens.

Does this mean we get to kill you?

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Does this mean we get to kill you?

If it stops the cycle. Sure.

Just make sure you sing at my funeral.

 

[Neiteio]

You know what, I change my mind, Infinite isn't one of my favorite games ever, it's probably one of the worst games ever conceived, because it's Cloud City but it doesn't have

I mean, the game involves the multiverse, Lando could've shown up at some point.

Levine is a space racist.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Levine is a space racist.

Why, they're the worst kind of racist... Spacists! NAIL HIM UP!

 

[LiK]

You know what, I change my mind, Infinite isn't one of my favorite games ever, it's probably one of the worst games ever conceived, because it's Cloud City but it doesn't have

I mean, the game involves the multiverse, Lando could've shown up at some point.

Levine is a space racist.

You met him in one of the colored restrooms but you didn't notice. I am disappoint.

 

[Screaming Meat]

You met him in one of the colored restrooms but you didn't notice. I am disappoint.

Whatever universe or reality we go to Lando is always cool. It's a constant. The only variable with him is how cool.

 

[show me your skeleton]

So is it just me or was Rosalind Lutece really into her brother? I mean, amirite gaiz?

i think finding an intellectual equal was incredibly fascinating & rewarding (double the brain power, slightly different views on problems etc.) for her. him. them.

 

[Neiteio]

Why, they're the worst kind of racist... Spacists! NAIL HIM UP!

Racists are terrible people. But spacists are the worst

You met him in one of the colored restrooms but you didn't notice. I am disappoint.

Ugh, you think I would go in the colored restroom?!

Whatever universe or reality we go to Lando is always cool. It's a constant. The only variable with him is how cool.

Lando is my constant.

 

[Randdalf]

Half Life 2

Half-Life 2 doesn't have developer commentary. All Valve games that came out after it do though, and they are all universally of high quality. Portal 2's commentary extends through the entire game if I'm not mistaken.

 

[APZonerunner]

i think finding an intellectual equal was incredibly fascinating & rewarding (double the brain power, slightly different views on problems etc.) for her. him. them.

One thing these rules had me wondering about actually was what would the child be like if two of the same person from two universes conceived one.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Also, this isn't in the actual game right?

Let's get a prequel DLC where Comstock looks like that.

I don't think it is. It looks not a little unlike:

One thing these rules had me wondering about actually was what would the child be like if two of the same person from two universes conceived one.

Just a guess.

 

[joeyjoejoeshabadoo]

I'm totally with you. The 1912 versions of newer music were such a great touch.

My favourite is the Tears For Fears cover in the ending credits (I think you can hear it in one of shops in-game also, but I missed it). It's so catchy.

I personally loved the Tainted Love cover.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss_eBop2PsI

 

[Neiteio]

OK, somewhat more serious note, it would've been cool if at the end we got to fly into battle on Songbird's back, rattling a saber and wearing our 7th Cavalry uniform for some reason.

 

[show me your skeleton]

One thing these rules had me wondering about actually was what would the child be like if two of the same person from two universes conceived one.

- as shown in the art of bioshock infinite.

edit: screaming meat was pretty spot on.

 

[keltickennedy]

Maybe this was answered earlier in the thread but, how did Elizabeth have those powers after find out that she is only human, being Bookers daughter? Because he finger was cut off in a portal and now two parts of her exist in two different dimensions?

 

[Screaming Meat]

Maybe this was answered earlier in the thread but, how did Elizabeth have those powers after find out that she is only human, being Bookers daughter? Because he finger was cut off in a portal and now two parts of her exist in two different dimensions?

That's pretty much the game's explanation, yeah.

 

[Salamando]

That's pretty much the game's explanation, yeah.

Makes ya wonder...given Booker's an adult, he's likely lost teeth, blood, and who knows what else in his original universe. If he spent enough time in his new universe, could he gain superpowers too?

 

[Screaming Meat]

Makes ya wonder...given Booker's an adult, he's likely lost teeth, blood, and who knows what else in his original universe. If he spent enough time in his new universe, could he gain superpowers too?

I said the very same thing... Christ alive, we shed skin daily. File under Suspension of Disbelief.

 

[Neiteio]

Makes ya wonder...given Booker's an adult, he's likely lost teeth, blood, and who knows what else in his original universe. If he spent enough time in his new universe, could he gain superpowers too?

Maybe the difference is, Liz's was split by the literal closing of space-time on her finger. In other words, the fabric of time-space itself severed her finger. It wasn't simply a matter of leaving genetic material in one world while leaving for another. It was -how- that part of her got cut off in the first place.

 

[Metroidvania]

Makes ya wonder...given Booker's an adult, he's likely lost teeth, blood, and who knows what else in his original universe. If he spent enough time in his new universe, could he gain superpowers too?

I think another part is that the cut happened during the time when the tear machine was open, instead of happening 'naturally' such as shedding old hair follicles, skin cells, etc.

There's also the fact that the 'tear' itself is what performed the cut.

edit: Fuuuuuu

 

[Neiteio]

I think another part is that the cut happened during the time when the tear machine was open, instead of happening 'naturally' such as shedding old hair follicles, skin cells, etc.

There's also the fact that the 'tear' itself is what performed the cut.

edit: Fuuuuuu

YOU WERE BEAT LIKE CHEN-LIN, GOOD SIR.

 

[XNarte]

Makes ya wonder...given Booker's an adult, he's likely lost teeth, blood, and who knows what else in his original universe. If he spent enough time in his new universe, could he gain superpowers too?

Yeah but the difference is that the tear closed around her finger, cutting it off. It's not like they cut it off in one universe and left it there.

edit: yup beaten with a skyhook

 

[The Bookerman]

I bet this has been said to death... But this game has fucked me up just as bad as the first matrix movie.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I bet this has been said to death... But this game has fucked me up just as bad as the first matrix movie.

Do not repeat DO NOT read The Filth by Grant Morrison. You've been warned.

 

[Neiteio]

I bet this has been said to death... But this game has fucked me up just as bad as the first matrix movie.

Don't worry, in another timeline you were rather meh on the whole game.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I thought LOST handled this way better.

http://youtu.be/vnJqNIeUZzk

I think LOST's wrapup is a example of a awful close to a narrative and clear evidence the writers couldn't figure out a way to wrap everything up in a sensible manner.

Sounds like you just enjoy simpler things in general.

I have a great TV show I can reccomend you, it's called of CSI: Miami. I heard it's a really show.

...

Basically Desmond is talking about LOST's version of the after-credits scene in Infinite (he's seen what he thinks is an alternate reality where all shit in the series never went down,) while Jack has come to terms with determinism. It ties in with the theme of accepting what's happened and moving on.

Haha what a jerk thing to say. Also acting like LOST has any semblance of a well thought out narrative is LOL nutty.

The glowing stream that leaks EM everywhere is the source of consciousness/time/space. When you screw with it causes problems (e.g. conception being busted on the island.)

In Season 5 time got fucked, so a bunch of people tried to tried to kill the unstable EM spot that later brought down their plane. With a nuke. But that's actually what caused it to be unstable.

One side effect though was that their desperate wishes and the energy from the nuke created what they wanted within the light. Upon death, people involved with the Island wake up in this reality (the "flashsideways" parts of season 5 - what Desmond got a glimpse of.) The ending is all of 'em coming to understand that their experiences (the good and the bad) were more important than this bland, safe life.

Lotsa casual watchers thought that the ending was just "THEY WERE DEAD THE WHOLE TIME!"

I would say 99.9% of viewers thought that which means your writing skills are awful and the show was a mashup of ideas that never came across in a logical manner. All the LOST thread was on gaf for weeks was the same response of "I KNEW THEY WERE ALL DEAD!" Followed by "Actually your wrong they were messing with the space/time continuum see evidence A,B,C,D" at which point they would just say "SO THEY ARE IN PURGATORY?" Awful writing and I even took the time to piece together that broken mess of a show.

It had what seemed like a multiverse (one where they prevented the plane from crashing, other where they failed.) Desmond snaps and acts all weird, thinking that messing with the light will get them to the better reality. Twist being that it was actually their limbo awaiting them.

I like rewriting history being a false hope better than killing yourself to deny all bad versions of you from existing.

You just like simple concepts. Thats okay. There is a show called Quantum Leap that I think you could follow easily enough.

 

[Dragon1893]

I was absolutely emotionally drained after the last few hours of the game. I've never cried after a game ended, but i was a wreck after this game.
I've cared so much about Elizabeth for the whole game, I felt lonely when she wasn't around. I've even felt real anger when they tortured her and just murdered everyone that was on my way to her, even the scientist that begged for their lives.

I'm astonished at the things they've accomplished in this game.

lol, I wrote almost exactly the same thing a few pages back.

Makes ya wonder...given Booker's an adult, he's likely lost teeth, blood, and who knows what else in his original universe. If he spent enough time in his new universe, could he gain superpowers too?

Wouldn't the Lutece do that to themselves to gain powers like Elizabeth's though? You'd think they'd sacrifice a finger for that kind of power.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Question: How do we know for sure that Booker was drowned before he could make any choice to the baptism and not right after he had accepted?

Edit: Never mind, got it (I think?). Paradox.

 

[HueyFreeman]

and I'd pay good money to have Booker + Liz playing Bioshock 1 and tying both games somehow, same "tonics" and weapons and gunplay as Infinite, the part of the ending showing Rapture looked ridiculous, as ridiculous better compared to good old Bioshock... those textures, lighting, shadows... do it Ken, you know you want to.

Glad I'm not the only one that noticed that. It was absolutely breathtaking - I've kept returning to bioshock over the years and it was just so many leaps and bounds beyond the original world, it really makes you appreciate how far they've come with the unreal 3 engine.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Question: How do we know for sure that Booker was drowned before he could make any choice to the baptism and not right after he had accepted?

Edit: Never mind, got it. Paradox.

""Before the choice is made, before you are reborn"

Of course, either way it would result in the same conclusion if it was just after accepting.

 

[AEREC]

I have a feeling in one of the DLC's we'll be playing as Preston Downes.

 

[Tummi Gummi]

I kinda wish I'd bought a collector's edition now, but finances are a bit tight and I didn't quite love the game as much as I did Alan Wake (bought retail, then bought collectors edition+official guide+art book), so I'll have to pass.

 

[FStop7]

The vox poppuli were all like

"hey hes suppose to be dead and shit....this don't make sense...UGGGHGHH IM CONFUSED AND NOW ANGRY

KILL HIM "

It was a bit more like Daisy saying "He's supposed to be dead. We saw him die. He's our martyr. He needs to stay dead."

And then at some point it stops being about that and more about the Vox simply being out of control and indiscriminate.

 

[Salamando]

Wouldn't the Lutece do that to themselves to gain powers like Elizabeth's though? You'd think they'd sacrifice a finger for that kind of power.

I think, as scientists who're morally OK with baby-napping, they'd experiment first. Have a control group of baby's from this dimension, a group of non-bodypart missing babies from another, a group of babies from another dimension who lost a body part in that dimension, and a final group of babies who lost a body part in a tear. Their sample size for subjects was only Anna and Robert. Not nearly enough to remove doubt that they're just anomolies.

 

[FStop7]

So was Booker the one "hogging" all the glory from Wounded Knee and the Boxer Rebellion? Was Slate actually pissed at Booker and not Comstock? Considering the latter are the same person, Slate's distaste was fairly apt.

I might be wrong, but I think Slate did not make the connection that DeWitt = Comstock, thus he believed Comstock was a fraud who completely made up his involvement in Wounded Knee

yes/no?

I'm sure Slate knew.

"Booker" was not at the Boxer Rebellion. That took place post-transformation. Comstock took Columbia over to China and unleashed his forces (led by Slate) to crush the rebellion. But Comstock took the credit for having been in the battle himself, which angered Slate. Which is why he calls Comstock a tin soldier - because he was no longer the man he respected from Wounded Knee. So seeing Booker DeWitt appear, Slate knew that this was the chance to get the honorable death he sought from the man he respected.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

""Before the choice is made, before you are reborn"

Of course, either way it would result in the same conclusion if it was just after accepting.

Ah right, the first and second theories in the OP. Thanks.

 

[Jest Chillin]

It was a bit more like Daisy saying "He's supposed to be dead. We saw him die. He's our martyr. He needs to stay dead."

And then at some point it stops being about that and more about the Vox simply being out of control and indiscriminate.

Yeah. Daisy suspects something strange but the more pressing issue is that Booker's death is what inspired the people to actually move forward en masse with the rebellion. If Booker were to surface again, for whatever reason, it could easily screw the whole thing up.

It's pretty indiscriminate throughout. The Vox turn against you specifically after Daisy is killed. Though it remains to be seen whether it's BECAUSE Daisy is killed or just because you're onboard Comstocks various vessles and thus assumed to be one of their enemies.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

My most mindblowing thing was the use of the choices you make during the game (the raffle, coin toss, brooch) to turn a perceived weakness of the game into one of its greatest strengths for storytelling.

Bioshock 1 did this with your linear route through Rapture and limited options to progress tying in with the use of the "would you kindly" trigger-phrase, and I was hoping this would have a similarly impressive use of mechanics as metaphor. It was only after the credits rolled I got it.

Just like how Booker choosing not to be baptised didn't stop the ultimate fate of Comstock existing, your choices don't affect what actually happens with the story. No matter how many times you play through the game and make different choices, the outcome is always the same, because every choice you make creates a new alternate universe where you chose differently.

What would usually be open to criticsm (ie. that your choices are meaningless, you can't affect the story, and everything happens the same each time you play it) is fully embraced as it enforces the point the game is trying to make at the climax: The only way to stop Comstock is to never make the choice.

The only way to stop it all from happening is to not play the game.

Damn bro. Nicely said.

 

[ryz]

My most mindblowing thing was the use of the choices you make during the game (the raffle, coin toss, brooch) to turn a perceived weakness of the game into one of its greatest strengths for storytelling.

Bioshock 1 did this with your linear route through Rapture and limited options to progress tying in with the use of the "would you kindly" trigger-phrase, and I was hoping this would have a similarly impressive use of mechanics as metaphor. It was only after the credits rolled I got it.

Just like how Booker choosing not to be baptised didn't stop the ultimate fate of Comstock existing, your choices don't affect what actually happens with the story. No matter how many times you play through the game and make different choices, the outcome is always the same, because every choice you make creates a new alternate universe where you chose differently.

What would usually be open to criticsm (ie. that your choices are meaningless, you can't affect the story, and everything happens the same each time you play it) is fully embraced as it enforces the point the game is trying to make at the climax: The only way to stop Comstock is to never make the choice.

The only way to stop it all from happening is to not play the game.

This is exactly the message of BioShock 1. Until the "would you kindly" scene, the characters "choices" made no sense to me. Why would you trust Atlas in the first place? Why would go here, do this, et cetera? The only way to stop the things in BS1 from happening, is also not to play the game.

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

The ending makes perfect sense -- it's just been a matter of us all trying to explain it, in a clear and thorough way.

I'd put it like this:

Liz could manipulate time-space because part of her (the tip of her pinky finger) was in one universe, while the rest of her was in another. It's like she's standing on the border between worlds, one foot on each side, able to see both sides.

To try and regulate this power, the siphon was created inside Monument Island, as a way to restrain her. Liz describes it as a "leash." Once the siphon is destroyed at the end of the game, she's "off the leash," and her power reaches its full potential. She can now see all of the infinite sets of timelines in the universe... including all of the ones in which Booker becomes Comstock.

To prevent Comstock from ever happening, Liz has to create a PARADOX, because the universe "does not like its peas mixed with its porridge," as Lutece put it -- or in other words, nature will correct any paradoxes by obliterating paradoxical timelines from existence.

So, Liz creates a paradox: She drowns Booker before his baptism. This creates a paradox because if Booker is dead, Booker can never become Comstock, and if Booker can never become Comstock, Comstock can never steal Liz, and if Liz is never stolen, Liz never receives her ability to traverse time-space and kill Booker in the first place.

The universe sees this and goes, "PARADOX!" And then obliterates each and every timeline where Booker becomes Comstock.

All that remains, are the timelines where Booker rejects baptism. What was once a "variable" -- an element that can change, in this case to accept or reject baptism -- is now a "constant," like the coin that always comes up heads when the Lutece twins meet Booker again at the Raffle Fair and ask him to flip the coin.

That's an important concept to understand. There are constants -- elements that always work out the same across all timelines -- and variables, or things that are different depending on the timeline. Elizabeth, by creating a paradox, forced the universe to take the "variable" of accepting/rejecting baptism, and turn it into the "constant" of rejection.

And so Booker, while still in debt, will be able to see his daughter grow up. And hopefully things will work out for the best.

Just wanted to thank you for this post specifically. I read the OP and almost this whole thread but this post summarizes everything really well.


I guess my point of confusion when thinking about the multiple universe stuff is that the game never really gets into the nitty gritty of laying down the rules with the paradox aspect or the rules governing why something must be a constant versus a variable. Or maybe it does and I missed it or was too dumb to piece it together.

I basically pieced together the ending in a rough form so the last twist that Comstock was alternate reality Booker wasn't as impactful as I'd have thought. I was loving the ending with the lighthouse stuff and Rapture and seeing that Anna = Elizabeth but I feel like something else was missing. Maybe a better explanation of the constants/variable and paradox aspect? Not sure.

I guess my question is why is the baptism necessarily THE constant that sets everything in motion? Sure, that "makes" Comstock but that would presumably only make him super religous. To me, the big event that would take Comstock from a influential preacher to Big Bad Evil Columbia Prophet Comstock is his meeting Lutece. Is his meeting Lutece and looking through the tears for his "visions" a constant or variable? And why? Why not have an alternate timeline where Comstock exists as just some normal preacher who never met Lutece and thus no Columbia?

Furthermore, on a basic level it seems odd that a hyper religious guy like Comstock would even meet up and get acquainted with a hyper scientific, physicist like Lutece. That just seems like an incredibly odd pairing. How did that come about in the first place? Science and religion don't usually mix well like that. The science stuff made more sense in Bioshock 1 where you had Rapture and Ryan letting science run amok basically. In Infinite, that pairing science with religion seems kind of odd.

The whole thing is pretty sad when you think about it. I admit I was expecting a happier ending, Liz and Booker really grew on me so I find the whole thing kinda depressing, it's a really tragic story.

Yeah, maybe that's why I was kind of bummed out about the ending too. Its a bit of a downer.

Although, in the after credits scene does that version of Dewitt have memories of what just happened? The way he calls to Anna makes it seem like he just woke up or something and is knowingly going in to check on her, knowing the whole adventure he just had. Like the end of Inception with the spinning top, I guess.

Also what was the deal with the very end with your version of Elizabeth? The various versions you see that drown Booker are not the one you had been travelling with, right? Because none of them had the necklace that you chose? So did that version of Elizabeth cease to exist when you passed through the lighthouse door?


Other random thought: I really liked the alternate timelines when they were pretty obvious. Things like having Booker be a Vox Populi martyr and seeing how the world ended up in that state. Or seeing Comstock House and Columbia in a timeline where Elizabeth becomes Old Elizabeth and destroys NY. It reminded me Its a Wonderful Life, basically. But I really liked seeing those very obvious and tangible alternate realities. I wouldn't even mind if more of the DLC were just more stories in those alternate timelines. For me at least, I feel like the game got kind of muddled and convoluted when it wasn't clear when you were jumping through the tears or they hadn't really explained those nitty gritty mechanics of interacting with the various timelines enough.

Maybe explaining some of the mechanics of the timeline stuff or Lutece's research in the course of the game would have made the ending a little smoother and less of an info dump. Like find a kinetoscope or film of Lutece giving a lecture on the timelines and things in her lab or something.