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[utsavinheaven]

Question 1:-
how are there other elizabeth present in the last part of baptism.if they are just copies how did the original eli bring them.
2:-
can she open Tears which are present or can she create new one?

 

[Neiteio]

Just wanted to thank you for this post specifically. I read the OP and almost this whole thread but this post summarizes everything really well.

Thanks. Maybe Bruce can add it to the OP under the part with Xtortionist and others.

I guess my point of confusion when thinking about the multiple universe stuff is that the game never really gets into the nitty gritty of laying down the rules with the paradox aspect or the rules governing why something must be a constant versus a variable. Or maybe it does and I missed it or was too dumb to piece it together.

There is talk of constants and variables at several points in the game. What determines whether something is a constant vs. a variable is all sort of predetermined by the universe -- until someone comes along creating a paradox that forces the universe to reclassify one element as another.

I guess my question is why is the baptism necessarily THE constant that sets everything in motion? Sure, that "makes" Comstock but that would presumably only make him super religous. To me, the big event that would take Comstock from a influential preacher to Big Bad Evil Columbia Prophet Comstock is his meeting Lutece. Is his meeting Lutece and looking through the tears for his "visions" a constant or variable? And why? Why not have an alternate timeline where Comstock exists as just some normal preacher who never met Lutece and thus no Columbia?

All they knew for certain is no good comes of Booker becoming Comstock. In one way or another, he will continue to hurt others. It's better Booker be bottled-up and depressed than spreading hate.

Furthermore, on a basic level it seems odd that a hyper religious guy like Comstock would even meet up and get acquainted with a hyper scientific, physicist like Lutece. That just seems like an incredibly odd pairing. How did that come about in the first place? Science and religion don't usually mix well like that. The science stuff made more sense in Bioshock 1 where you had Rapture and Ryan letting science run amok basically. In Infinite, that pairing science with religion seems kind of odd.

I don't see Comstock as the religious type who rejects science. He's more concerned with his view of what's "right" and who's "deserving." He's more about his own moral code, in other words -- elevating those who meet it, and punishing the rest. When it comes to Lutece's work, I suspect he sees such science as the handiwork of God -- not an affront to God. And for him, it becomes a means to an end.

Yeah, maybe that's why I was kind of bummed out about the ending too. Its a bit of a downer.

Although, in the after credits scene does that version of Dewitt have memories of what just happened? The way he calls to Anna makes it seem like he just woke up or something and is knowingly going in to check on her, knowing the whole adventure he just had. Like the end of Inception with the spinning top, I guess.

Nothing's set in stone in this regard. I like to think some misplaced memory of lessons learned are still rattling around in his head, like echoes of another life. This turns it into a sort of "Christmas Carol" deal where Booker wakes up and decides to turn his life around. The matter in which he calls out to Anna sounds to me like he's never been happier to see her.

Also what was the deal with the very end with your version of Elizabeth? The various versions you see that drown Booker are not the one you had been travelling with, right? Because none of them had the necklace that you chose? So did that version of Elizabeth cease to exist when you passed through the lighthouse door?

Those represent various iterations of Liz across different timelines, each of which also went on the journey to create the paradox and wipe out timelines in which Booker becomes Comstock. And accordingly, they all disappear after Booker is gone.

 

[Vol5]

So I watched the ending again. What possible universe could Liz lie of Booker is dead? If you watch it again, Liz doesn't disappear like the rest, the screen goes black before we find out her ultimate fate.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Question 1:-
how are there other elizabeth present in the last part of baptism.if they are just copies how did the original eli bring them.
2:-
can she open Tears which are present or can she create new one?

1: There are multiple worlds where Elizabeth gains her freedom and comes to the lighthouse... intersection I'll call it. Each one of them is from a different world that made it there.

2: She can create them initially but once the syphon is built in the tower it limits her power to only being able to open existing tears (which seem to be sort of weak points between universes). After the tower and syphon are destroyed.. she gains access to her full range of powers and can create tears whenever and wherever she pleases.

 

[Xanathus]

So I watched the ending again. What possible universe could Liz lie of Booker is dead? If you watch it again, Liz doesn't disappear like the rest, the screen goes black before we find out her ultimate fate.

Notice how each Liz disappears at the same time as a piano note is played. Notice how the screen goes black with the final note.

 

[Screaming Meat]

So I watched the ending again. What possible universe could Liz lie of Booker is dead? If you watch it again, Liz doesn't disappear like the rest, the screen goes black before we find out her ultimate fate.

...or that whole probablity disppears along with her, hence the black screen and the "disappearing" note.

EDIT: Curse you, Xanathus!

 

[Neiteio]

So I watched the ending again. What possible universe could Liz lie of Booker is dead? If you watch it again, Liz doesn't disappear like the rest, the screen goes black before we find out her ultimate fate.

The screen went black with the last Liz because that timeline literally no longer exists. It was a paradox and it has been wiped from existence, along with every other timeline where Booker accepted baptism and became Comstock. He can now only reject baptism... and remain Booker.

 

[Yu Narukami]

I just finished the game and my mind is clearly blown. I get it that the Comstock timeline is created because of the baptism, but I don't understand what provokes that creation of Comstock. Booker did not go back to the past to make another decision.

 

[utsavinheaven]

1: There are multiple worlds where Elizabeth gains her freedom and comes to the lighthouse... intersection I'll call it. Each one of them is from a different world that made it there.

2: She can create them initially but once the syphon is built in the tower it limits her power to only being able to open existing tears (which seem to be sort of weak points between universes). After the tower and syphon are destroyed.. she gains access to her full range of powers and can create tears whenever and wherever she pleases.

thks.
but is it clear why other ppl can see the tears,as it is shown in 1 of the videos.
also she did make some random tears at time right?

also why is the original eli not present during baptism,could it be the other elis found thier freedom thru other means?

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

1: There are multiple worlds where Elizabeth gains her freedom and comes to the lighthouse... intersection I'll call it. Each one of them is from a different world that made it there.

I was just thinking that it would have been neat if you saw those different versions of Elizabeth from the ending when you're walking around the docks between the lighthouses. Instead, I think you only see "your" version of Elizabeth walking with what looks like "your" version of Dewitt. Not a big thing but would have sort of reinforced how those different timelines converge to one constant point.

 

[Incendiary]

Neat little touches in Comstock's Airship right before you confront him: there are bronze plaques of events that happened during the game: Monument Island burning, Elizabeth stabbing Fitzroy, Comstock standing at his fountain, a plume of smoke erupting from Finkton. Pretty neat.

 

[Neiteio]

I just finished the game and my mind is clearly blown. I get it that the Comstock timeline is created because of the baptism, but I don't understand what provokes that creation of Comstock. Booker did not go back to the past to make another decision.

Here's what I wrote earlier:

The ending makes perfect sense -- it's just been a matter of us all trying to explain it, in a clear and thorough way.

I'd put it like this:

Liz could manipulate time-space because part of her (the tip of her pinky finger) was in one universe, while the rest of her was in another. It's like she's standing on the border between worlds, one foot on each side, able to see both sides.

To try and regulate this power, the siphon was created inside Monument Island, as a way to restrain her. Liz describes it as a "leash." Once the siphon is destroyed at the end of the game, she's "off the leash," and her power reaches its full potential. She can now see all of the infinite sets of timelines in the universe... including all of the ones in which Booker becomes Comstock.

To prevent Comstock from ever happening, Liz has to create a PARADOX, because the universe "does not like its peas mixed with its porridge," as Lutece put it -- or in other words, nature will correct any paradoxes by obliterating paradoxical timelines from existence.

So, Liz creates a paradox: She drowns Booker before his baptism. This creates a paradox because if Booker is dead, Booker can never become Comstock, and if Booker can never become Comstock, Comstock can never steal Liz, and if Liz is never stolen, Liz never receives her ability to traverse time-space and kill Booker in the first place.

The universe sees this and goes, "PARADOX!" And then obliterates each and every timeline where Booker becomes Comstock.

All that remains, are the timelines where Booker rejects baptism. What was once a "variable" -- an element that can change, in this case to accept or reject baptism -- is now a "constant," like the coin that always comes up heads when the Lutece twins meet Booker again at the Raffle Fair and ask him to flip the coin.

That's an important concept to understand. There are constants -- elements that always work out the same across all timelines -- and variables, or things that are different depending on the timeline. Elizabeth, by creating a paradox, forced the universe to take the "variable" of accepting/rejecting baptism, and turn it into the "constant" of rejection.

And so Booker, while still in debt, will be able to see his daughter grow up. And hopefully things will work out for the best.

TO ADD TO THE ABOVE: Booker became Comstock after baptism because in his mind, his past actions at Wounded Knee were not only "forgiven," but "justified," and with his renewed sense of self and newfound charisma, he became even worse than he was before: Unrelenting in his bigotry, and influential in his conduct.

Meanwhile, if Booker rejects baptism, he lives with the weight of what he did wrong -- and he sees his racism for its ugliness. He slides into depression, drinking and debt, but this Booker doesn't try to rationalize what he did as right.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I just finished the game and my mind is clearly blown. I get it that the Comstock timeline is created because of the baptism, but I don't understand what provokes that creation of Comstock. Booker did not go back to the past to make another decision.

What do you mean exactly, chief? The baptism changed Booker. Rather than wallowing in his sins, he distances himself from them and, in fact, ends up glorifying them. Is that what you meant?

 

[BraXzy]

Just recieved my copy of the big art book from Amazon. It's purtyy. Some interesting stuff in there, like how the songbird was a spiritual successor to the Big Daddy. Some concepts looked far too much like BD with wings, some looked like mechanical dragons.

The skyhook in concepts at one point had a chain to fire out and hit enemies (and I'm assuming rails) before I guess the magnetic easier to animate route was chosen. The high-res Propaganda posters are awesome too.

One other interesting thing off the top of my head from my scan through it, there was an initial idea early on during the development of the tears that made people who went through them get deformed in some way, either merging with someone else and having a second face or having parts mangled and deformed. Really creepy.

 

[Neiteio]

What do you mean exactly, chief? The baptism changed Booker. Rather than wallowing in his sins, he distances himself from them and, in fact, ends up glorifying them. Is that what you meant?

Ooo, I like how you put that. "Rather than wallowing in his sins, he distances himself from them and, in fact, ends up glorifying them." Very well-said.

 

[Yu Narukami]

What I meant is that he could only make another choice if he went back to the past.

 

[Dylan]

TO ADD TO THE ABOVE: Booker became Comstock after baptism because in his mind, his past actions at Wounded Knee were not only "forgiven," but "justified," and with his renewed sense of self and newfound charisma, he became even worse than he was before: Unrelenting in his bigotry, and influential in his conduct.

^ this is one of the most interesting discussions the game offers. It ties in very well with the original quote about the mind filling in memories too. Only here, it's almost the opposite. Comstock can't get rid of his memories so he instead creates an environment where those memories are considered virtuous. It's a really interesting glance at cognitive dissonance and its potential effect on our values & morality.

 

[Jest Chillin]

thks.
but is it clear why other ppl can see the tears,as it is shown in 1 of the videos.
also she did make some random tears at time right?

also why is the original eli not present during baptism,could it be the other elis found thier freedom thru other means?

The tears physically exist though Liz is the only one who can open them without the aid of a machine. But as is the case with Booker, once a tear is opened.. anyone can pass through them. Why are they so randomly placed? Could be old tears that Liz created as a child or it could be a side effect to the Lutece's experiments. It's not really clear.

I'm not sure what you mean. The Elizabeth that you as a player travel with was there at the final scene. But regardless of that it's very possible the other Elizabeths found their freedom through any number of ways.

I was just thinking that it would have been neat if you saw those different versions of Elizabeth from the ending when you're walking around the docks between the lighthouses. Instead, I think you only see "your" version of Elizabeth walking with what looks like "your" version of Dewitt. Not a big thing but would have sort of reinforced how those different timelines converge to one constant point.

That indeed would have been awesome but it would have also sort of gotten ahead of itself and lessened the shock of the final reveal at the Baptism. I think it's indeed a different set of Elizabeth and Booker.. just one that's incredibly close to the Player versions.

 

[Salamando]

Here's what I wrote earlier:


TO ADD TO THE ABOVE: Booker became Comstock after baptism because in his mind, his past actions at Wounded Knee were not only "forgiven," but "justified," and with his renewed sense of self and newfound charisma, he became even worse than he was before: Unrelenting in his bigotry, and influential in his conduct.

Meanwhile, if Booker rejects baptism, he lives with the weight of what he did wrong -- and he sees his racism for its ugliness. He slides into depression, drinking and debt, but this Booker doesn't try to rationalize what he did as right.

I'm still not a fan of the Paradox explanation. Couldn't the universe make all Bookers Comstocks, since then he has no Annas to steal? That'd resolve the paradox just as well. That is, assuming Booker going to the Baptism is a constant. Otherwise the much simpler resolution is all Bookers who go to the Baptism are drowned, and any who don't are free to become gamblers/PI's and such, and it's one of them in the post-credits.

 

[Neiteio]

What I meant is that he could only make another choice if he went back to the past.

There are multiple timelines, Bookers, Comstocks, etc. Liz created a paradox so all of the timelines where Booker became Comstock were wiped from existence. All that is left, are the timelines with the Bookers who reject baptism. Baptism goes from being a variable -- something with different results in different timelines -- to a constant, where it always plays out the same, like the coin toss always landing on heads.

 

[utsavinheaven]

did the lease allow her to make only tears that could be seen or did it allow her to make tears in her extreme moods as well,cause many a times i did not see any tears and she still could make it,as in case of the hurricane.
also how could other ppl see them?

 

[utsavinheaven]

The tears physically exist though Liz is the only one who can open them without the aid of a machine. But as is the case with Booker, once a tear is opened.. anyone can pass through them. Why are they so randomly placed? Could be old tears that Liz created as a child or it could be a side effect to the Lutece's experiments. It's not really clear.

I'm not sure what you mean. The Elizabeth that you as a player travel with was there at the final scene. But regardless of that it's very possible the other Elizabeths found their freedom through any number of ways.



That indeed would have been awesome but it would have also sort of gotten ahead of itself and lessened the shock of the final reveal at the Baptism. I think it's indeed a different set of Elizabeth and Booker.. just one that's incredibly close to the Player versions.

Tears :-
Many a cases we don't see them,still liz opens them,like the tornado one.
so do we assume that it was there but not shown to us?

Liz :-
in the last part,none of liz had the cag/bird band,so assuming she is not the same.
also how is the booker at that point not know who liz is?

 

[Yu Narukami]

There are multiple timelines, Bookers, Comstocks, etc. Liz created a paradox so all of the timelines where Booker became Comstock were wiped from existence. All that is left, are the timelines with the Bookers who reject baptism. Baptism goes from being a variable -- something with different results in different timelines -- to a constant, where it always plays out the same, like the coin toss always landing on heads.

I understand that there are multiple timelines and the beginning is the choice. What I don't get is why it begins with the choice.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I'm still not a fan of the Paradox explanation. Couldn't the universe make all Bookers Comstocks, since then he has no Annas to steal? That'd resolve the paradox just as well. That is, assuming Booker going to the Baptism is a constant. Otherwise the much simpler resolution is all Bookers who go to the Baptism are drowned, and any who don't are free to become gamblers/PI's and such, and it's one of them in the post-credits.

It only resolves the destruction element paradox but wouldn't prevent the dimensional tears. One could argue that Comstock would still steal/buy a child to pose as his seed and the same or similar things would happen as a result.

The Universe doesn't like peas in it's porridge. So eliminating the Comstocks results in the much cleaner resolution to the paradox.

 

[Neiteio]

did the lease allow her to make only tears that could be seen or did it allow her to make tears in her extreme moods as well,cause many a times i did not see any tears and she still could make it,as in case of the hurricane.
also how could other ppl see them?

The tears around Columbia are seen by others; one of those black-and-white videos you can watch in the game talks about this "mysterious phenomenon." Doesn't explain them, though. The people of Columbia probably just see them as small miracles of sorts.

What really causes them has something to do with the quantum meddling of Lutece. The whole city floats on suspended particles, so that in itself might have some destabilizing side effects on the surrounding space-time, let alone all of the business involving Liz.

The siphon restrains Liz's power. If she's at full power, she could just as easily escape into another world, or wipe out her captors. The siphon redirects the vast majority of her power so that she is only capable of small tears.

 

[Neiteio]

I understand that there are multiple timelines and the beginning is the choice. What I don't get is why it begins with the choice.

Because the choice of baptism is the crossroads at which Booker remains Booker or Booker becomes Comstock. Comstock is "born" when Booker is "born again."

 

[Salamando]

It only resolves the destruction element paradox but wouldn't prevent the dimensional tears. One could argue that Comstock would still steal/buy a child to pose as his seed and the same or similar things would happen as a result.

The Universe doesn't like peas in it's porridge. So eliminating the Comstocks results in the much cleaner resolution to the paradox.

The tears will exist regardless. Lutece was hovering atoms before Wounded Knee occurred. She needed funding, which could've just as easily come from any number of rich people. The grants and patents alone would've also provided that.

 

[Yu Narukami]

Because the choice of baptism is the crossroads at which Booker remains Booker or Booker becomes Comstock. Comstock is "born" when Booker is "born again."

And what triggers the choice?

 

[Neiteio]

And what triggers the choice?

Booker seeking baptism after the atrocities he committee at Wounded Knee. Booker is part Indian, and he killed tons of Indians to try and prove himself to his fellow soldiers. But after Wounded Knee, the weight of what Booker did got to him. He realized he killed people. And so he turned to baptism, hoping to absolve himself. This is the moment of choice -- and in the grand scheme of the universe, it is a choice with different timelines for different decisions.

 

[Jest Chillin]

The tears will exist regardless. Lutece was hovering atoms before Wounded Knee occurred. She needed funding, which could've just as easily come from any number of rich people. The grants and patents alone would've also provided that.

That's really impossible to truly know. However he does it, Comstock's amassed funds are the key to Rosalynd being able to make the machine that creates the tears. While anyone could provide funds, they may not necessarily be interested in Rosalynds implementation of a tear. They certainly wouldn't all have been interested in building a floating xenophobic city and masquerading as a prophet who needed to have a child to fufill their doomsday prophecy.

Since Rosalynd specifies that Comstock's funds/resources were key to the development of the tear, I'd have to lean towards the idea that she wasn't having success with pitching the idea to others.

 

[Neiteio]

Regarding Lutece doing her research regardless of Comstock funding, it's kind of a moot point since after the Liz paradox, there won't be a Comstock to exploit her research in the first place. Is it possible some other evil person may come along? Sure. It's also possible a meteor will strike the planet and wipe everyone out. They can only solve the problems they know, and Comstock was one such problem.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Ooo, I like how you put that. "Rather than wallowing in his sins, he distances himself from them and, in fact, ends up glorifying them." Very well-said.

I have to admit I was paraphrasing from the link in the analysis thread's OP:

http://peripsuche.blogspot.co.uk/201...-analysis.html

The most spot-on analysis I've heard about this game is that Columbia is a literal monument to Booker's sins.

 

[Yu Narukami]

Booker seeking baptism after the atrocities he committee at Wounded Knee. Booker is part Indian, and he killed tons of Indians to try and prove himself to his fellow soldiers. But after Wounded Knee, the weight of what Booker did got to him. He realized he killed people. And so he turned to baptism, hoping to absolve himself. This is the moment of choice -- and in the grand scheme of the universe, it is a choice with different timelines for different decisions.

I'm sorry English isn't my mother tongue, maybe I don't express myself correctly. I understood everything, but not the moment of the choice. Why did he have a choice in the first place? Was it the universe that gave him the possibility of choice or what was it?

 

[Salamando]

Regarding Lutece doing her research regardless of Comstock funding, it's kind of a moot point since after the Liz paradox, there won't be a Comstock to exploit her research in the first place. Is it possible some other evil person may come along? Sure. It's also possible a meteor will strike the planet and wipe everyone out. They can only solve the problems they know, and Comstock was one such problem.

My primary disagreement with the paradox theory is that it seems to indicate that Comstock's existence alone creates a paradox. I'm more of the opinion that the paradox is created by a number of events A-B-C-D-E...-Z, where A is Comstock is reborn and Z is the final action which guarantees a paradox. I'd agree that having Y turn from variable to constant to ensure a no paradox route would solve things, but I disagree that the Baptism is that Y event.

As such, I wondered why the baptism couldn't default to the Comstock path and not the Booker path, since it disrupts the sequence leading to the paradox. Sure, he may kidnap another kid, but maybe it's smoother, and it won't create Elizabeth (since anna doesn't exist).

 

[Neiteio]

I'm sorry English isn't my mother tongue, maybe I don't express myself correctly. I understood everything, but not the moment of the choice. Why did he have a choice in the first place? Was it the universe that gave him the possibility of choice or what was it?

The universe gave it to him. It's pre-determined whether something is a "variable" or a "constant." Variables are elements in the universe that have different outcomes in different timelines. Constants are elements that stay the same -- like the coin toss that always turned up heads at the Raffle Fair.

Before, the universe had made the moment of baptism a "variable" -- why it's that way, isn't explained; some things are just variables, and others are constants.

What Liz did was create a paradox, and the universe, which "doesn't like its peas mixed with its porridge," as Lutece put it, responded by wiping out all paradoxical timelines. In other words, it's nature correcting itself so that everything just "works."

As a result, the moment of baptism was no longer a variable with different outcomes in different timelines. Now the moment of baptism is a constant, always playing out the same way. And the way it plays out, is for Booker to reject baptism -- and never become Comstock.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I'm sorry English isn't my mother tongue, maybe I don't express myself correctly. I understood everything, but not the moment of the choice. Why did he have a choice in the first place? Was it the universe that gave him the possibility of choice or what was it?

I don't think that's ever really explained. It's explained that some things are constants and some are variables.. but what makes decision/action/whatever a constant while others are variables is never outright said.

Though off the top of my head, using the paradox theory as a guideline, it could possibly be said that constants are constant to prevent paradoxes from forming while variables are allowed to exist so long as they don't lead to a paradox.

 

[Yu Narukami]

That's what I meant, it's not clearly explained.

 

[Neiteio]

My primary disagreement with the paradox theory is that it seems to indicate that Comstock's existence alone creates a paradox. I'm more of the opinion that the paradox is created by a number of events A-B-C-D-E...-Z, where A is Comstock is reborn and Z is the final action which guarantees a paradox. I'd agree that having Y turn from variable to constant to ensure a no paradox route would solve things, but I disagree that the Baptism is that Y event.

As such, I wondered why the baptism couldn't default to the Comstock path and not the Booker path, since it disrupts the sequence leading to the paradox. Sure, he may kidnap another kid, but maybe it's smoother, and it won't create Elizabeth (since anna doesn't exist).

Booker becoming Comstock, or even reaching across time to steal Anna, isn't innately paradoxical in itself. It still works as a linear progression of events. It becomes paradoxical when Liz goes back in time and kills the man who would become the -other- man who steals her and makes her such that she can go back in time and kill him in the first place. That's the point at which Liz never could've existed, the point at which the Comstock timelines become bunk.

 

[randomengine]

Could someone explain to me why Elizabeth has her powers? Where did they come from?

 

[Neiteio]

Could someone explain to me why Elizabeth has her powers? Where did they come from?

They came from her pinky finger being left in one reality while the rest of her was in another. But more than that, they come from the fact that what cut her pinky was the fabric of space-time itself. Part of her was separated by the portal between worlds, so in a sense she is standing on a border with one foot on each side -- and at full power, she's able to see all of the seams in space-time.

 

[Salamando]

Booker becoming Comstock, or even reaching across time to steal Anna, isn't innately paradoxical in itself. It still works as a linear progression of events. It becomes paradoxical when Liz goes back in time and kills the man who would become the -other- man who steals her and makes her such that she can go back in time and kill him in the first place. That's the point at which Liz never could've existed, the point at which the Comstock timelines become bunk.

But does Comstock existing necessitate Liz existing?

 

[Neiteio]

But does Comstock existing necessitate Liz existing?

No, but once Liz makes it such that Comstock stealing Liz leads to Liz killing Booker before he becomes Comstock, Comstock can no longer exist, and neither can she in that form (a young adult with tear powers, caused by what Comstock did).

 

[randomengine]

They came from her pinky finger being left in one reality while the rest of her was in another. But more than that, they come from the fact that what cut her pinky was the fabric of space-time itself. Part of her was separated by the portal between worlds, so in a sense she is standing on a border with one foot on each side -- and at full power, she's able to see all of the seams in space-time.

That does not pass the smell test. Does the actual narrative say this or is this conjecture?

Anyone else could do the same thing and gain the same powers.

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

Skimming through the other spoiler thread, I think maybe part of the reason the ending didn't hit me as well as I thought it should have is simply how strange and matter of fact Elizabeth(s) is when she kills you, and basically kills herself. The whole "smother" in monotone unison thing was just sort of creepy and then they kill you without remorse. Its a somber moment but still, this person is your father and he just saved your life.

Especially considering how the good end to Bioshock was kind of touching, I guess maybe I just wanted some little bit of catharsis after they reveal that Booker= Comstock. Give that moment some breathing room (heh) and maybe one chance to say goodbye to Elizabeth before they dunk you, knowing that you're both Comstock and Booker. Its just so sudden, which maybe was their intent too I suppose.

Maybe since I kind of saw the Booker=Comstock reveal coming in some fashion, I was hoping the characters in the game would have something more to say about that revelation and have a little meditation on that fact. Instead its just dumped at the very last second and you're killed.

 

[Voice of Reason]

That does not pass the smell test. Does the actual narrative say this or is this conjecture?

Anyone else could do the same thing and gain the same powers.

A voxophone from Rosalind states it explicitly.

 

[Neiteio]

But does Comstock existing necessitate Liz existing?

I should clarify, Liz existing in her form that can manipulate time-space requires Comstock to have existed to steal her in the first place.

 

[Neiteio]

That does not pass the smell test. Does the actual narrative say this or is this conjecture?

Anyone else could do the same thing and gain the same powers.

From the game:

The small part of her is her pinky cut off by space-time itself. She is in two worlds at once -- and she can comprehend the spaces in-between.

 

[randomengine]

A voxophone from Rosalind states it explicitly.

That is a very unsatisfying explanation. Any Tom, Dick or Harriet could do the same thing and become as powerful as Elizabeth. No thanks, go back to the writing desk on that one.

 

[Salamando]

No, but once Liz makes it such that Comstock stealing Liz leads to Liz killing Booker before he becomes Comstock, Comstock can no longer exist, and neither can she in that form (a young adult with tear powers, caused by what Comstock did).

So why doesn't the universe just prevent Comstock from abducting Anna? Liz never exists, can never go back in time to drown Booker, and thus no paradox is created. My main point here is there's no reason Comstock can't exist that also can't apply to Booker existing post-baptism (if he attends the baptism).

 

[randomengine]

From the game:

The small part of her is her pinky cut off by space-time itself. She is in two worlds at once -- and she can comprehend the spaces in-between.

I smell a contradiction. If a contradiction "Peas in porridge" eliminates contradictory timelines as is the case at the end of the game, why does it allow the living contradiction known as Elizabeth to exist. Why not just wipe those timelines out? Ah ha!