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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |

StuBurns

Banned
Daisy was certainly underdeveloped. They go to great lengths to display why Comstock managed to inspire such loyalties, and they really don't do much at all for Daisy.
 

Neiteio

Member
What do people think about this article?

http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/...nfinite-and-the-terrible-case-for-banning-all

(I'm not supporting or going against it; just food for thought)
The author seems to be jumping to the conclusion that by some people wishing to explore Columbia nonviolently, that this means they must be complicit with the acts of racism and oppression depicted in the game.

However, that's simply not true. I think the people who wished Infinite had little to no shooting simply wished to go about tackling these issues of racism in a different way, a way that didn't involve shootouts.

Me personally, I love the fact it's a shooter, or at least, the sort of shooter it is, going back and forth between creative combat and quiet downtime exploring and scavenging. But my preference isn't out of some desire to tear down Columbia. I like the shooting because it keeps the journey exciting, like an action movie.

When it came to the ills of the society depicted -- the oppression of minorities, the poor, etc -- I had faith the story was going somewhere with it, and it was: Columbia turns out to be a monument to the sins of Booker, this being his tale of redemption, or rather, positing the question of whether such a man can be redeemed, and exploring this question from many different angles, by showing us alternate scenarios and outcomes, like "A Christmas Carol."

But again, the people who want less combat, or no combat, aren't saying they don't want to tackle these issues of racism, and they're certainly not endorsing them. They just want to go about problem-solving in different ways. Maybe that would still involve igniting revolution, but they simply would've preferred influencing characters to take that route rather than pulling the trigger on the frontlines themselves?

Also, Columbia's ugly underbelly doesn't rob its shiny exterior of its magic. If anything, the two sides of the city serve as a compelling contrast to one another.
 

Syrinx

Member
Okay, I've done some thinking about the ending. And I haven't read pretty much the entirety of this thread, so apologies if this post is redundant or if what I'm saying has been debunked.

The baptism scene at Wounded Knee, to me, represents two key themes of the game. The first being guilt. If Booker accepts the baptism, he becomes a megalomaniac with massive delusions of grandeur, who builds a city in the sky, traps his daughter (from another dimension) in a tower by herself, kills his wife and several others to keep his secrets hidden, and fights a war, justifying all of the killing by saying it was God's will.

If Booker rejects, he becomes a degenerate who sells his daughter to pay off some debts. He recognizes himself as irredeemable, as somebody who's committed such atrocities that nothing can possibly absolve him of what he's done. As he tells Elizabeth, after you have so much blood on your hands, you don't redeem yourself. You just learn to live with it. Which is why he's able to go through Columbia and kill hundreds of people without problem. He's become so numb to the guilt and sees himself as such a lost cause that, really, a few more dead isn't going to change anything for him.

What's striking is that, in the end, Comstock and Booker are, despite seeming very different, are ultimately the same. Both kill indiscriminately. Both treat their daughters as sacks of meat. And both act without guilt. The only difference being that Booker has learned to become numb to the guilt while Comstock refuses guilt outright. Booker sees himself as irredeemable, Comstock sees himself as incorruptable. Yet, in the end, they are the same.

Which leads to the second theme, and quite possibly the key thing in the entire game. When you choose heads or tails at the beginning, it lands heads either way. It doesn't matter what you choose, the end result is the same. When you choose between a bird or a cage necklace for Elizabeth, it doesn't matter. Both represent Elizabeth being chained down; whatever you choose, it's the same. So when you go to the scene with the baptism, and Booker has to choose to accept or reject the baptism...it doesn't matter. The result is the same either way.

And yet, despite that they're ultimately the same, the two go on to live VERY different lives. One, as mentioned, goes on to live as a megalomaniac prophet of a city floating in the sky. The other goes on to live as a degenerate gambler in debt to bad people. That incredible difference in the lives they live, all caused by choosing one of two choices: accept the baptism, or refuse it?

I think the game is criticizing the overly binary nature of choices in (most) video games, and how the games that incorporate them have to choose between having the choices the player makes mean very little or nothing at all in the long run, and defining the player character by some binary choice the game presents, oftentimes in ways the player can in no way have seen coming. When a player makes a choice in a game, the game has to balance rewarding the player for their choice and punishing them. The problem is that how do you create a situation where the player can only choose between two outcomes, and the consequences seem fair? Why does Booker have to become a delusional religious maniac just because he accepted baptism? Conversely, why does Booker have to become a self-loathing loser just because he rejected it? What if the player simply does not have the emotional connection to the scene that Booker does? Hell, how can they? (Note: I'm aware the player doesn't actually make the choice here; that's kinda the point). It's stupid and pointless to make them make this choice, and then have such outrageously different outcomes when the chances that the player would react to these choices in the same way Booker and (especially) Comstock do are practically zero. And so, oftentimes developers will make it so that your choices are trivial if not outright pointless to the outcome. Don't throw the baseball at the interracial couple? Get a couple of items (I don't remember what they actually give you, but it doesn't affect the game significantly at all). Decide to spare the Rachni on Noveria? In the sequel, you'll talk to an Asari who was saved by the Queen Rachni. You know, choices that matter.

I don't know if there is a solution to this problem. Make it three choices instead of two? You still have to make that balance regardless. Since the player is largely making these choices and then have to sit back and watch the consequences instead of remaining an organic part of the world and evolving as a result of their own choices. The game dictates how your actions and choices affect you, not you. So, as a developer, what do you do? Apply tangible consequences that in all likeliness do not reflect real life consequences in any way? Or make these choices trivial, defeating the purpose of these choices in the first place?
 

FStop7

Banned
So I noticed that if you throw the baseball at the mixed race couple you still get bonus gear in the arcade. The couple does not show up. But Jeremiah Fink's assistant does. So again there's an example of an "empty" choice.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
So I noticed that if you throw the baseball at the mixed race couple you still get bonus gear in the arcade. The couple does not show up. But Jeremiah Fink's assistant does. So again there's an example of an "empty" choice.

What happens if the player waits until the timer runs out without doing anything?
 

Guevara

Member
So I noticed that if you throw the baseball at the mixed race couple you still get bonus gear in the arcade. The couple does not show up. But Jeremiah Fink's assistant does. So again there's an example of an "empty" choice.

Wow that's kind of a bummer. It seems like choices matter even less than the did in B1.
 

pargonta

Member

Neiteio

Member
What do people think about this article?

http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/...nfinite-and-the-terrible-case-for-banning-all

(I'm not supporting or going against it; just food for thought)
Another note on this article: This author (who isn't of color, but who has made himself the authority figure on how people of color must feel about this game) seems to be fixating on what he -wanted- this game to be about: Minorities violently breaking down a white-dominated society, and being depicted heroically for it. He's upset by what he sees as a sidelining of the racial issues in favor of sci-fi and a story about a "white man's guilt," how it only addresses Booker's ills as Comstock and not the untold stories of the Indians at Wounded Knee, and how the Vox Populi are made to look as bad as Comstock when, the author feels, the Vox Populi are justified in their actions.

First of all... A heroic depiction of minorities rising to tear down a racist society is not the story Ken Levine wanted to tell. So the author of that article is essentially asking for what he wanted to hear, and not what Levine wanted to tell. Columbia is a very effective microcosm of racial issues circa 1912, so convincing that it's infuriating at times, as it should be, and so I can understand the desire to want to make the game about revenge. But the story is, and remains, a tale of whether someone such as Booker can be redeemed, and Columbia ultimately comes to represent what happens when people such as Booker don't listen to their heart and instead use ideology to rationalize away human cruelty as something righteous.

Similarly, the Vox Populi are meant to illustrate the perils of ideology supplanting rational thought. The Vox are well within their right to feel angry; they represent the oppressed minorities, the impoverished. But when Booker remarks how Daisy is ultimately not that different from Comstock, he is speaking to how sometimes those with good intentions let their own cult of personality and acquisition of power go to their heads, and that when ideology leads one to let the "ends justify the means," the means can hurt many an innocent person -- which is precisely what the Vox did, and which is precisely what history has repeatedly shown us in real life, where regime change leads the persecuted to become the persecutors and drag people into the fray who were innocent all along.

Again, it's about the perils of ideology rationalizing away human cruelty as something righteous. Levine isn't saying the Vox didn't have good reason to be pissed. He's just pointing out what history has shown us all along: Extremes lead to destruction. And regarding the Indians at Wounded Knee, their purpose within the story is to be the guilt Booker has that led to the whole crossroads of whether he turns to ideology for absolution or whether he lives with what he did as something wrong. They are not being sidelined out of some apathy on the part of the author. No, they are the very springboard for a story exploring how we accept what we've done wrong and whether we can try to do right.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
What do people think about this article?

http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/...nfinite-and-the-terrible-case-for-banning-all

(I'm not supporting or going against it; just food for thought)

This is kind of scary. If a fantastical videogame that features racism as a theme drives you into such a bloodlust, you have problems. Something tells me that if this kid were transported to a Midwestern town in 1900 that held the same views that you see in the opening of the game, he wouldn't take a sawed off shotgun and start killing everyone. So why is somebody the embodiment of pure evil if they get bored by cover shooter segments and want a more exploration based game?

I'm not hearing anybody say "Yeah I think Comstock had the right idea, why does the game force you to help the Vox? Why can't I just root them out of their holes and put them to justice?"
 

Korey

Member
mZZigCQ.png
 

smr00

Banned
Can i just say that the part where the wheelchair slowly creeps out with the mask on it is fucking creepy. I almost pissed myself.
 

Guevara

Member
Eh? I don't remember anything creepy involving a bathtub...?

It's nothing major, it's just that one bathtub in the room literally has a few toys in it. The same toys you see elsewhere in the game (a little block sailboat I think). The implication being it's kids that are being reeducated (and attacking you, and that you are killing).
 

Neiteio

Member
It's nothing major, it's just that one bathtub in the room literally has a few toys in it. The same toys you see elsewhere in the game (a little block sailboat I think). The implication being it's kids that are being reeducated (and attacking you, and that you are killing).
OH!

...

THOSE WERE KIDS?!? o_O
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
Can i just say that the part where the wheelchair slowly creeps out with the mask on it is fucking creepy. I almost pissed myself.

Shit, that was the worst. I literally stayed still for half a minute waiting for something to pop out and try to kill me.


Yep, that's 4chan! But now that I think about, a Horde room mode would be quite cool. Choose the room where you want to play, basic guns, settings, and enemies start to roll in! The last part of the game would be great for one of the scenarios. But I'd rather have story DLC. Maybe after that we can have this.

Booker finally falls to a hail of coin tosses.

Hahaha, oh man.

OH!

...

THOSE WERE KIDS?!? o_O

Boys of Silence. The name says it all.
 

Grisby

Member
Can i just say that the part where the wheelchair slowly creeps out with the mask on it is fucking creepy. I almost pissed myself.
I wish there would have been more horror inspired stuff.

Not fighting ghosts or anything but more creepier places.
 

Dany

Banned
Can i just say that the part where the wheelchair slowly creeps out with the mask on it is fucking creepy. I almost pissed myself.

Same, OMG and the enemy with the horns standing right behind you. Good God I almost wet myself
 

Neiteio

Member
Same, OMG and the enemy with the horns standing right behind you. Good God I almost wet myself
That trick's recycled from BioShock 1's Medical Pavilion where a doctor Splicer pulls the same stunt, but it still would've scared me, had I not accidentally clicked a spoiler tag mentioning he'd pop up behind me, lol.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
That trick's recycled from BioShock 1's Medical Pavilion where a doctor Splicer pulls the same stunt, but it still would've scared me, had I not accidentally clicked a spoiler tag mentioning he'd pop up behind me, lol.

I had to freaking pause my game. I wasn't expecting the same thing twice. Dammit, Irrational.
 

Guevara

Member
I expected that to happen at the kinetoscope viewers, which made me really nervous because there are 2 or 3 in that area.
 
Can i just say that the part where the wheelchair slowly creeps out with the mask on it is fucking creepy. I almost pissed myself.

I was like NOPE

I loved how the game just went from sci-fi thriller to pure horror at the drop of the hat. Really wish there was more of that, it just felt so effortless.
 

televator

Member
I think it would also have been cool if they were able to tie in the original Shock games with infinite as well. Maybe while you were entering the light houses with Liz, you suddenly heard the voice of Shodan and then a giant screen came on with her face on it. However, seeing as there were no lighthouses in System Shock and that whole mess of the games rights and name being separated... I understand.
 
Booker finally falls to a hail of coin tosses.

Nah, Booker gets a gattling gun that shoots coins and he starts spouting off bad Duke Nukem-esque one liners: "There is a high probability you're in for an ass kicking!" "The only constant here is this skyhook being embedded in your head!"

I think it would also have been cool if they were able to tie in the original Shock games with infinite as well. Maybe while you were entering the light houses with Liz, you suddenly heard the voice of Shodan and then a giant screen came on with her face on it. However, seeing as there were no lighthouses in System Shock and that whole mess of the games rights and name being separated... I understand.

That would be cool if they could find a clever way to do that.

I do wonder where they take Bioshock after Infinite, if anywhere at all. Assuming its successful, I have to imagine 2K will want a sequel or at least another game with the Bioshock name on it. What time periods would be interesting to explore? What kind of city? I have to imagine it would be at a point where it would be tough to create something that felt novel after the end of Infinite where Elizabeth lays down the rules for Bioshock basically. I mean, everyone that played a future Bioshock game would be looking for those cues so closely.
 

Neiteio

Member
OK, here's some DLC I want that they won't make:

COLUMBIA: NON-RACIST ANIMAL CROSSING EDITION

Set in a timeline where Columbia honors civil rights for all and everyone enjoys a high quality of living, you can choose your own sky-high apartment, furnish it as you see fit, and enjoy endless raffle fairs where the only people who have balls thrown at them, are the people who decided not to put single-player Versus mode in Mario Kart 7.

This would be amazing.
 

Mr. F

Banned
Sorry if this has been talked about to death at this point (just finished the game earlier today) but why does old Elizabeth both attack New York and decide to help Booker? I know that by 1984 she's succeeded Comstock as planned and therefore would "drown in flames the mountain of man," but in that case why would she feel the need to help you?

Maybe I missed something, but her motivations in that version of the future were kind of confusing to me.
 

Neiteio

Member
Sorry if this has been talked about to death at this point (just finished the gamer earlier today) but why does old Elizabeth both attack New York and decide to help Booker? I know that by 1984 she's succeeded Comstock as planned and therefore would "drown in flames the mountain of man," but in that case why would she feel the need to help you?

Maybe I missed something, but her motivations in that version of the future were kind of confusing to me.
Comstock conditioned her to carry out the future he had glimpsed through a tear, but at the last minute a part of Elizabeth's old self seeps through and she realizes the horror of what she's doing. She also realizes that Booker is coming and could still prevent this timeline from coming to pass if she tears him through to another reality. She herself, however, cannot stop the machinations set in place in her own timeline -- guess those war engines are hard to slow down! -- which is why she's banking on timeline destruction altogether.
 

televator

Member
What do people think about this article?

http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/...nfinite-and-the-terrible-case-for-banning-all

(I'm not supporting or going against it; just food for thought)

Yeah I don't thinks it's worth getting all up in arms in particular about the the Vox becoming hypocritically bad. I mean these things do happen in real life. We have Israel today... I got the point of where it was headed when I heard the voxophone recording of Daisy when she said something to the extent of not caring to be integrated in the white folks, but rather building up her own ideal culture. Came off more early Malcolm X, than MLK. I got the feeling this was intentional and overtly inspired by those sorts of different approaches. In the the case of Infinite, I'd say Ken explores Malcolm X's approach.
 

RDreamer

Member
What an insane ending. I just read the OP and a bunch of this thread. I didn't see it, but did anyone address Slate? He was yelling about how Comstock wasn't in the battle at all, and I was wondering about that. Was that addressed anywhere in the game? I kept looking for an aha moment related to that, but it never happened.
 

Trigger

Member
What an insane ending. I just read the OP and a bunch of this thread. I didn't see it, but did anyone address Slate? He was yelling about how Comstock wasn't in the battle at all, and I was wondering about that. Was that addressed anywhere in the game? I kept looking for an aha moment related to that, but it never happened.

You've already seen it more or less. Comstock over exaggerated his role in the battles. Slate knew this and was pissed.
 

RDreamer

Member
You've already seen it more or less. Comstock over exaggerated his role in the battles. Slate knew this and was pissed.

Well over exaggeration is one thing. Slate was yelling that he literally wasn't there. At least that's what I remember. Perhaps I just mistook what he was saying and thus was searching for answers to a question that was never really posed. I dunno, it just stuck out to me.
 
Well over exaggeration is one thing. Slate was yelling that he literally wasn't there. At least that's what I remember. Perhaps I just mistook what he was saying and thus was searching for answers to a question that was never really posed. I dunno, it just stuck out to me.
Well, Comstock wasn't at Wounded Knee,. Booker DeWitt was. Comstock only was born post Wounded Knee. I don't remember what Slate said about Comstock and the Boxer rebellion though.
 
Well over exaggeration is one thing. Slate was yelling that he literally wasn't there. At least that's what I remember. Perhaps I just mistook what he was saying and thus was searching for answers to a question that was never really posed. I dunno, it just stuck out to me.
Comstock wasn't in Wounded Knee, Booker was though.
Edit: Beaten
 

RDreamer

Member
Well, Comstock wasn't at Wounded Knee,. Booker DeWitt was. Comstock only was born post Wounded Knee. I don't remember what Slate said about Comstock and the Boxer rebellion though.

Yeah, I mean I got that. From the player perspective it's a nice clue. From Slate's perspective it seems odd. I mean he'd know that he got baptized and changed his name, probably.

I guess unless he didn't know that at all.

Hmm.. I suppose that does make some sense. Comstock still kept his same history, fluffed it up, but no one knew specifically who he was in those events. So people who were in them didn't necessarily know for a fact he was there.

In the end, though that all does seem kind of forced that he didn't know this stuff, specifically because he'd then have to basically reveal it to the player.
 
What do people think about this article?

http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/...nfinite-and-the-terrible-case-for-banning-all

(I'm not supporting or going against it; just food for thought)

I will certainly agree that Daisy Fitzroy is an underdeveloped character, but I don't think that the Vox turning out to be power-hungry and violent jerks is far off from the mark - Elizabeth herself makes a romanticized comparison to Les Miserables early in the game, when anyone with a history book knows the French Revolution was a lot more grisly than that. That's the point Infinite is trying to make with the Vox - that a justified response can easily go too far. It's definitely the weakest part of Infinite's script, but I think the issue lies more with it being rushed than it being wrong or racist.

As for Booker being a shitty character to play as, the writer is sort of glossing over some things. For one, we know Booker is incredibly remorseful, remorseful enough to fall into a self-destruction spiral. We also know he's a self-loathing, disassociative Pinkerton - essentially, Booker is a bad dude so up to his neck in badness that he ceased to care. Reprehensible? Absolutely, but he's a character, not a real human being, and I'm always on board for interesting horrible people as characters.

As for their assertion that minorities never have their stories told? 100% agree, but that's less Bioshock's as a specific game's fault and more an industry-wide problem. I think there are some good points in this blog posts, underneath the weird character assassination bits and (what I'd consider) misinterpretation of the story.

I think most of the things this writer is upset about in Infinite happen for realsies with no subtext in Far Cry 3.
 
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