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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
As far as I understood it, Slate wasn't aware that Comstock was the Booker DeWitt that he fought alongside with during the battle of Wounded Knee, so I'm going to go with that.
Yeah, that's what I've come to. I wish I hadn't analyzed that, because it doesn't make much sense in universe for him to not know that he would have been baptized and changed his name, etc.
We have to smother the new people.
More or less my thoughts on that essay, except I don't think Daisy was rushed -- I think she was in it just long enough to make the intended point without muddying up the narrative flow -- and likewise with the Indians, where it's already established Booker feels horrible about it, and all attention is placed on resolving the current crisis involving Booker becoming a far worse figure in Comstock. And regarding Booker's "badness," I don't think he "ceased to care" about the fact he had done bad things, but more like he was paralyzed by them and thought himself irredeemable, drinking away his depression.
Oh, and I totally agree that the essay writer's character assassination of the Kotaku fellow, Ken Levine, etc, is completely unnecessary. As someone noted, the violent rage the writer expresses makes the game's depiction of the Vox seem all too accurate. The persecuted begin to feel that anyone party to their persecution should be soundly destroyed... which as historical regime change in real life has shown us, leads to many innocent people getting hurt.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I guess someone totally missed the Irish in the game.
I will agree that the Vox story was not handled that well. I really saw no need to make Daisy as bad as Comstock, but ultimately, it didn't impact the main storyline at all. The Vox were little more than a side mission. Yeah, you keep fighting them for the most the rest of the game, but the Vox cold have been cut, and future encounters replaced with Comstock's men without any changes to the main narrative.
So, what the fuck is happening in this TV ad for the game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ijwot_kW6w
What? lol
...just one more parallel universe to think about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ijwot_kW6w
What? lol
...just one more parallel universe to think about?
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Awesomeness, duh.
That said, I don't know why people say this is not a good ad. I mean, I've seen worse.
That said, I don't know why people say this is not a good ad. I mean, I've seen worse.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
So, what the fuck is happening in this TV ad for the game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ijwot_kW6w
What? lol
...just one more parallel universe to think about?
None of the rendered stuff from previews happened in the game.
So, what the fuck is happening in this TV ad for the game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ijwot_kW6w
What? lol
...just one more parallel universe to think about?
Same case with Elizabeth looks older on the cover and posters I guess. To avoid ppl from speculating father-daughter relationship between the two.
It's interesting that more people aren't upset about it.
Are you referring to the commercial where they try to hang Elizabeth? It's terrible and I bitched about it quite vocally when the 60-sec one ran on Walking Dead.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Eh... I think its similar to the early gameplay videos. So much of the game has changed and the final product is so good that I'm not too bothered. I'm more curious to know what the development process was like and what different iterations the game went through.
I don't even think that commercial is that good. Both Elizabeth and Booker have very Uncanny Valley sort of faces there.
JetBlackPanda
Member
So, what the fuck is happening in this TV ad for the game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ijwot_kW6w
What? lol
...just one more parallel universe to think about?
Booker achieved the "heart breaker" achievement.
harriet the spy
Member
I just finished the game.
It was great, and this is coming from someone who didn't like bioshock too much. In particular, it was very well paced. Story was great fun, interpreted most of the game as theories in the OP, except for the elizabeth murdering all bookers scene, which mostly confused me but which I could somehow accept led to the epilogue.
It reminded me of (don't highlight if you dont want see names of movie/game with similar thematic elements)
The thing which perhaps made me the happiest about the ending is that I wasn't crazy about girls just want to have fun being part of the OST. I thought I was going nuts at that part.
This said, I do agree that equating Daisy Fitzroy with Comstock was a severe mistake. The game is not very subtle in his political message, but this felt really unnecessary for the whole plot, and as a result, (hopefully inadvertently) racist-ish.
It was great, and this is coming from someone who didn't like bioshock too much. In particular, it was very well paced. Story was great fun, interpreted most of the game as theories in the OP, except for the elizabeth murdering all bookers scene, which mostly confused me but which I could somehow accept led to the epilogue.
It reminded me of (don't highlight if you dont want see names of movie/game with similar thematic elements)
looper and infamous.
The thing which perhaps made me the happiest about the ending is that I wasn't crazy about girls just want to have fun being part of the OST. I thought I was going nuts at that part.
This said, I do agree that equating Daisy Fitzroy with Comstock was a severe mistake. The game is not very subtle in his political message, but this felt really unnecessary for the whole plot, and as a result, (hopefully inadvertently) racist-ish.
Just finished it. What an incredible ending. The more I think about it the more everything makes more sense.
If there was one problem I had with the narrative in the game, as others have mentioned, it would be the way the Daisy/the Vox are portrayed. Almost no character development for Daisy and the false equivalency between the Vox and the Founders just seems really lazy. I understand it was a side story compared to the very strong main narrative but I think it was a missed opportunity to have some better commentary.
Edit: Also, gotta give credit for BruceLeeRoy for the great OP. Cleared up a lot of questions I had and is an awesome resource for all of the hidden stuff in the game.
If there was one problem I had with the narrative in the game, as others have mentioned, it would be the way the Daisy/the Vox are portrayed. Almost no character development for Daisy and the false equivalency between the Vox and the Founders just seems really lazy. I understand it was a side story compared to the very strong main narrative but I think it was a missed opportunity to have some better commentary.
Edit: Also, gotta give credit for BruceLeeRoy for the great OP. Cleared up a lot of questions I had and is an awesome resource for all of the hidden stuff in the game.
Slate didn't know about Comstock's past.
Comstock kept it a secret to everybody. Nobody knew his past. There's a voxophone with his biographer who said everything before his baptism was blank:
Alright guys: what gear am i equpping for lady comcast first fight on 1999?
I was less prepared this time with weapons. I have sniper and rpg
Try to full melee spec if you can, with blood to salt to convert charge kills into more charges.
Like the dudebro-ish cover, it's all marketing to appeal to a broader audience (non-bioshock fans). Don't worry too much about it
I think what happened with Fitzroy would have been mostly fine had they not literally stated she's just as bad as Comstock. I think that's what partially throws it over the edge, since it's stated before she does go over the edge.
Actually that part of the game was weird to me. They were going hard on Fitzroy, when she hadn't really done much except incite a revolution against oppressors at that time. It was after Elizabeth equating the two that she really went bonkers.
Actually that part of the game was weird to me. They were going hard on Fitzroy, when she hadn't really done much except incite a revolution against oppressors at that time. It was after Elizabeth equating the two that she really went bonkers.
MrTroubleMaker
Member
Thanks, that's probably what it all about. I was hoping it was a easter egg showing/changing with the few choices you've made.
I was hoping it was a little more to it as well
Good thing I reposted it here
yeah, it so out of place too.
Yeah that's a good point. It was handled a bit too eagerly when nothing about her actions had yet revealed anything worthy of of hatred. There was only a voxophone or two that kinda made me worry about her character.
One thing that bothers me is that Comstock KNOWS he's "Booker DeWitt."
So when "Booker DeWitt" appears in Columbia gunning for him, it seems like that could have / should have set up some interesting narrative moments. But they never come to pass. I appreciate that Irrational didn't want to tip their hand, but I have a hard time believing that Comstock would truly avoid lording this information over the player, during the course of the game. As far as I can remember there's no reference from Comstock, oblique or otherwise, that he actually knows about DeWitt's true nature. Even though of course he does.
~~~
Another side thought is that the game's ending paint's Slate in a new, even more tragic light. He's driven insane by Comstock's claim that he was at Wounded Knee, even though Slate KNOWS he wasn't there. Except, of course, he was. As DeWitt. Pretty neat.
~~~
Super-lame that Irrational pulls off the twist by Comstock just super-aging. Feels like a cop-out. The tears include travel through time. Isn't there some way they could have made the story work with Booker traveling into the alternate world's future, where Comstock had naturally aged into an old man?
I guess that creates a set of problems with Elizabeth's age... hm. It's a nitpick, I guess. Just bothers me that the whole twist is only possible thanks to the story hand-waving the age difference away with mumbo jumbo.
So when "Booker DeWitt" appears in Columbia gunning for him, it seems like that could have / should have set up some interesting narrative moments. But they never come to pass. I appreciate that Irrational didn't want to tip their hand, but I have a hard time believing that Comstock would truly avoid lording this information over the player, during the course of the game. As far as I can remember there's no reference from Comstock, oblique or otherwise, that he actually knows about DeWitt's true nature. Even though of course he does.
~~~
Another side thought is that the game's ending paint's Slate in a new, even more tragic light. He's driven insane by Comstock's claim that he was at Wounded Knee, even though Slate KNOWS he wasn't there. Except, of course, he was. As DeWitt. Pretty neat.
~~~
Super-lame that Irrational pulls off the twist by Comstock just super-aging. Feels like a cop-out. The tears include travel through time. Isn't there some way they could have made the story work with Booker traveling into the alternate world's future, where Comstock had naturally aged into an old man?
I guess that creates a set of problems with Elizabeth's age... hm. It's a nitpick, I guess. Just bothers me that the whole twist is only possible thanks to the story hand-waving the age difference away with mumbo jumbo.
There's no "false equivalence" between the Founders and the Vox. Both hurt innocent people. The game handled this well.
Doesn't matter if the violence of one started with the oppression of the other. At the end of the day, the Vox didn't have to slaughter innocent children, etc. But they did, and there is real-life precedent for this, where regime change brings violence just as bad as what came before (I.E. Pol Pot's regime during the Cold War). And that's the point -- ideology, taken to extremes, hurts innocent people. This cuts both ways -- racist and non-racist, conservative and progressive.
It reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman wants the Wii and freezes himself, winding up in a future where religion is gone... but in its place are three squabbling factions who are killing each other over the exact wording of what they call their atheist beliefs. ANY ideology is dangerous when taken to extremes.
Doesn't matter if the violence of one started with the oppression of the other. At the end of the day, the Vox didn't have to slaughter innocent children, etc. But they did, and there is real-life precedent for this, where regime change brings violence just as bad as what came before (I.E. Pol Pot's regime during the Cold War). And that's the point -- ideology, taken to extremes, hurts innocent people. This cuts both ways -- racist and non-racist, conservative and progressive.
It reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman wants the Wii and freezes himself, winding up in a future where religion is gone... but in its place are three squabbling factions who are killing each other over the exact wording of what they call their atheist beliefs. ANY ideology is dangerous when taken to extremes.
harriet the spy
Member
I forgot.
I am still sad about what Elizabeth does to Songbird.
Why does she do this?! Such cruelty!
I doubt Songbird could follow her through the multiverse doors she keeps popping through. Unless he is as magic as she is.
I am still sad about what Elizabeth does to Songbird.
Why does she do this?! Such cruelty!
I doubt Songbird could follow her through the multiverse doors she keeps popping through. Unless he is as magic as she is.
rohlfinator
Member
Doesn't he basically do that in the first speech to the player? "It always ends with blood with you", etc.
Pretty much. The whole first speech is him mocking Booker.
harriet the spy
Member
Yes but this is about the US and its racist past, not about Pol Pot. The Vox do commit despicable acts, yes. The false equivalency people refer to is that the only anti-racist movement depicted in the game happens to be incredibly hateful and violent. The false equivalency is that somehow the people opposing a violently racist society are just as bad as the society itself, so in a sense that society's racism was vindicated. That the hatred of the Vox and fitzroy was somehow justified.
It's a very unfortunate message to have underlying the game, though it was most likely not intended.
Yep, I'm replaying the game and just did that part before Monument Island, and it's quite clear to me Comstock is speaking to Booker while fully aware of who Booker is (namely himself).
This plot is excellent on so many levels. Its sheer scale and ambition means a lot of people will try to find cracks to nitpick, but really, when I consider the density of its design and where its focus lies (the pitfalls of ideology, as seen in Comstock/Vox/Columbia, and the redemption of Booker, the man behind it), it becomes clear that everything was done to just the right degree, and everything served its point, and never to the detriment of the pacing.
The only bit that seems strange is the Lady Comstock's ghost, but in the grand scheme of things, it's no problem. Game has a great narrative and I'm still amazed they managed a well-paced game that starts strong like the first BioShock and ends strong like the second.
That's not the message at all. No one's saying the Founders' racism is vindicated by the eventual violence of the Vox. If anything, the message is this:
VIOLENCE breeds VIOLENCE.
The Founders were oppressive to minorities and the poor. They created violent unrest in the lower classes. Does this make the violence of the Vox OK? No, it does not. However, we know why they're violent, and they're violent because they've been treated like caged animals for so long.
Everyone tries to take a side with this shit, but the game's outlook is much grander and more humanitarian than that. The point is that when we're shitty to other people, we increase the chances those people will be shitty to others, and so forth. No one is right for treating each other poorly. It's just an inevitable consequence of violence breeding violence.
And what goes around, comes around. The circle goes unbroken...
yup, Lady Comstock's ghost made no sense in context of the story, imo. Elizabeth said she's alive in some other timeline and was ripped into this one or something. But how does that explain her powers? and why does she look like that? One of those parts where I felt they designed her as a boss thing rather than basing it on the narrative.
When exactly did the Vox Resort to hurting innocent people though? Maybe I missed something, but I thought the Vox didn't go crazy until Booker handed them all the weapons. So equating the leader of the Vox before knowing what she had or will do was false equivalence.
Also what do you mean by "non-racist". If you mean equal rights supporters... Well I don't recall any rampant equal rights lynch mobs in real life.
There are Fitroy recordings in the game where she spells out her intention to violently stamp out the other side and form her new society where the white man is put in his place. Fitroy started with good intentions but her hatred ultimately got the best of her, which coupled with power led down the usual route of ideological corruption. Thus, once armed they overdid it -- they become indiscriminate in their killings, which is why we find the corpses of mothers and children who had the misfortune of living in that society at a time of revolt.
Again, this is not some strange concept invented by Levine. It has happened many times in the past. A group is persecuted, then the tide turns in their favor, and they kill anyone they perceive to be party to their persecution. Which sadly, almost always includes innocent people.
RobotMafia
Banned
Poor songbird.
I don't like this idea that because she's standing up for the oppressed, she has to be some shiny character. She isn't, and she wasn't. At one point she was a maid, trying to get by. Then she was framed for murder. That was the final straw for her, and she started rallying others to stand up to their oppressors.
This is noble, and good. But it's made clear in her recordings even before the revolution timeline that all those years of abuse cultivated a violent streak in her a mile wide. She is, as I said earlier, an example of violence breeding violence. Darkness was cultivated in her soul by the racists who oppressed her. And the whole point of her one-off appearance in the revolution timeline is to show how the ills of the Founders led to the ills of the Vox, each ideology dangerous in its own way, violence begetting violence.
She served her narrative purpose, I feel. I can understand people thinking she's interesting and wanting to see more, though.
true, but the first time we meet her we get thrown off the airship. whether we agree with her or not, we never got any scenes where she tried to convince you to join her cause. not from the the timeline we were in anyway.
I forgot.
I am still sad about what Elizabeth does to Songbird.
Why does she do this?! Such cruelty!
I doubt Songbird could follow her through the multiverse doors she keeps popping through. Unless he is as magic as she is.
Songbird was never going to relent. It's what he was programmed to do.
They had lost control of him. A huge biomechanical being that had just preceded to tear apart a huge tower and a litany of troops and zeppelins. He was heading toward them and Elizabeth's inundation had just been removed by the creature.
Elizabeth acted in a moment where time was not in abundance. And it gave us a tragic, beautiful, and poignant moment.
i'm hoping we get to play in the Martyr timeline as Booker for more scenes with the Vox Populi in general.
Escape Goat
Member
Daisy was all about maintaining the narrative of a martyr. Having Booker alive complicated things but he was still useful if he could get the guns. If not she was going to kill him though she was probably going to do that anyways.
It's a wholly different looking main character, plot elements that never occur in the game, etc. How many games advertise with those two factors?
Yeah, it's like the ad agency was told, "Just make the game look cool," and so they see Liz, think "damsel in distress," and make her look even more fussy before stringing her up to be hanged so Dudebro McJoe can swing into action and save her.
Exactly. EDIT: Wait, I thought you meant maintaining her -own- narrative of a self-sacrificing hero (obviously not one that committed martyrdom, though). In the "go get the guns" timeline, there has only been one Booker, and that's you. It was the other timeline where Booker was martyred and Booker being alive complicated things.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the three DLC campaigns is Martyr Booker leading the revolution with the Vox Populi. The recordings he left indicate he did it to attempt to get to Liz, who was relocated from Monument Island to Comstock House. Hmm.
utilizing the same assets but different objectives seems like a pretty easy DLC for them.
oh man, i kinda wish one of the DLCs is based on the dudebro cover Booker where he's a complete dick and he dies 10 minutes in.