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[spekkeh]

There's always a man and there's always a lighthouse. Maybe Booker / Comstock / Ryan / Bioshock's protagonist are manifestations of the same ideal man, more metaphysical than real. In a sense, maybe Levine is an objectivist after all.

 

[Guevara]

A lot of people are missing the fact that the bathyspheres were locked to Ryan's genetic key and to those of his inner circle.

Further, they don't even have to be closely related to that pool of people "Sisters, cousins — anyone in the ballpark genetically will be able to come and go as they see fit."

We're putting all the bathyspheres in lockdown until further notice. Ryan had us install some kinda genetic device into the things so only Ryan and his inner circle will be able to use 'em without dispensation. But the boys tell me the keys are pretty unreliable. Sisters, cousins-anybody in the ballpark, genetically, will be able to come and go as they see fit.

http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Bathysphere_Keys

So Booker could be Ryan, or related to Ryan, or one of Ryan's circle, or just related in any way to someone in Ryan's circle. Or it could simply be that the bathyspheres aren't locked down at this time.

 

[John Rabbit]

are locked down, were locked down, will be locked down.

 

[spekkeh]

are locked down, were locked down, will be locked down.

or that

 

[bidguy]

A lot of people are missing the fact that the bathyspheres were locked to Ryan's genetic key and to those of his inner circle.

Further, they don't even have to be closely related to that pool of people "Sisters, cousins — anyone in the ballpark genetically will be able to come and go as they see fit."



http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Bathysphere_Keys

So Booker could be Ryan, or related to Ryan, or one of Ryan's circle, or just related in any way to someone in Ryan's circle. Or it could simply be that the bathyspheres aren't locked down at this time.

or booker was in rapture after the events of bioshock 1 where you disabled the security system

 

[Conciliator]

I think Booker is a bathysphere.

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

I think Booker is a bathysphere.

Whoa, man. Whoa.


So, does anyone actually think that the "Songbird cry" sound in Bioshock 1 was intended to be Songbird dying? Seems really, really improbable that Irrational had such foresight. Just seems to be a cool aural coincidence to me.

 

[MMBosstones86]

Whoa, man. Whoa.


So, does anyone actually think that the "Songbird cry" sound in Bioshock 1 was intended to be Songbird dying? Seems really, really improbable that Irrational had such foresight. Just seems to be a cool aural coincidence to me.

IMO .... they just used sound effects from Bio1 to 'voice' Songbird in BioInf. Maybe more hindsight during BioInf development (hey we can use these sound effects and fuck with people, etc.) instead of foresight during Bio1 development.

I just have a hard time believing they really 'planned' this during Bio1 dev.

 

[John Rabbit]

IMO .... they just used sound effects from Bio1 to 'voice' Songbird in BioInf. Maybe more hindsight during BioInf development (hey we can use these sound effects and fuck with people, etc.) instead of foresight during Bio1 development.

I just have a hard time believing they really 'planned' this during Bio1 dev.

i seriously doubt this as well and i agree it's more that they re-used or used similar sounds from bioshock. case in point: one of dollar bill's barks ends with the word "values!" and it's said in almost the same cadence as "Circus of Values!"; additional both machines are voiced by Ken Levine. i just think it's kind of a "fucking with you" thing.

 

[Protome]

A lot of people are missing the fact that the bathyspheres were locked to Ryan's genetic key and to those of his inner circle.

Further, they don't even have to be closely related to that pool of people "Sisters, cousins — anyone in the ballpark genetically will be able to come and go as they see fit."



http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Bathysphere_Keys

So Booker could be Ryan, or related to Ryan, or one of Ryan's circle, or just related in any way to someone in Ryan's circle. Or it could simply be that the bathyspheres aren't locked down at this time.

Nobody's missing that, it has been brought up a billion times in the thread already.

It's probably just something that the team missed that could easily be explained away with "It's a different universe Rapture."

 

[DarkKyo]

Booker just didn't get to her soon enough in that timeline. There's nothing to suggest that Elizabeth merged with her other self.

So how do you explain the fact that the dead from the previous universe are half-dead in the new universe? They were fine in their own universe(the one with the tools locked up) until Booker and Elizabeth observed them as dead in the previous universe and brought that perspective into the new universe. If the characters don't merge states then the dead/alive characters should have no reason to be half-dead or even remember their own deaths. They'd be absolutely fine with no recollection of themselves dying in another world. They only change from the "waves" of the other universe affecting them. Apply this logic to Booker and Elizabeth and they'd collapse onto themselves in the new universe. This is why Booker has memories of his other self leading the Vox.

Are you saying that another Elizabeth is around somewhere in Columbia 2 but the Elizabeth from the first universe never runs into her? Why would the other characters collapse onto themselves but not the main characters? If anything Elizabeth wouldn't be affected because she is a special case, though I submit to you that characters merge states as inferred by the many cases of the dead/alive misfits.

 

[MMBosstones86]

So how do you explain the fact that the dead from the previous universe are half-dead in the new universe? They were fine in their own universe(the one with the tools locked up) until Booker and Elizabeth observed them as dead in the previous universe and brought that perspective into the new universe. If the characters don't merge states then the dead/alive characters should have no reason to be half-dead or even remember their own deaths. They'd be absolutely fine with no recollection of themselves dying in another world. They only change from the "waves" of the other universe affecting them. Apply this logic to Booker and Elizabeth and they'd collapse onto themselves in the new universe. This is why Booker has memories of his other self leading the Vox.

Are you saying that another Elizabeth is around somewhere in Columbia 2 but the Elizabeth from the first universe never runs into her? Why would the other characters collapse onto themselves but not the main characters? If anything Elizabeth wouldn't be affected because she is a special case, though I submit to you that characters merge states as inferred by the many cases of the dead/alive misfits.

I think you have good points here...that part seemed confusing as well. The only logical explanation for why it didn't affect Liz/DeWitt is that THEY were the ones going through the tears. Agreed, makes little sense. Probably some 'butterfly effect' shit.

Spoiler

I had an easier time understanding Inception, then this game

 

[Divvy]

I sort of figured that vicinity to the tear affected people more or else a lot of people around the world would be doubling over in pain.

 

[Trigger]

So how do you explain the fact that the dead from the previous universe are half-dead in the new universe? They were fine in their own universe(the one with the tools locked up) until Booker and Elizabeth observed them as dead in the previous universe and brought that perspective into the new universe. If the characters don't merge states then the dead/alive characters should have no reason to be half-dead or even remember their own deaths. They only change from the "waves" of the other universe affecting them. Apply this logic to Booker and Elizabeth and they'd collapse onto themselves in the new universe. This is why Booker has memories of his other self leading the Vox.

The key distinction is death. The people suffering from the nosebleeds are suffering from a dissonance brought upon by remembering their deaths from other timelines. The guards at the police station in Shantytown, Chen Lin, and Our Booker all suffer from it. Simply being in the same timeline as a parallel you doesn't cause a merge. Otherwise Our Booker would've merged with Comstock the minute he was brought into the Columbia timeline by the Luteces.

Are you saying that another Elizabeth is around somewhere in Columbia 2 but the Elizabeth from the first universe never runs into her? Why would the other characters collapse onto themselves but not the main characters?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. The main characters only suffer the dissonance when there is a death involved. Elizabeth never has one on screen at any point IIRC.

 

[Salamando]

So how do you explain the fact that the dead from the previous universe are half-dead in the new universe? They were fine in their own universe(the one with the tools locked up) until Booker and Elizabeth observed them as dead in the previous universe and brought that perspective into the new universe. If the characters don't merge states then the dead/alive characters should have no reason to be half-dead or even remember their own deaths. They'd be absolutely fine with no recollection of themselves dying in another world. They only change from the "waves" of the other universe affecting them. Apply this logic to Booker and Elizabeth and they'd collapse onto themselves in the new universe. This is why Booker has memories of his other self leading the Vox.

Are you saying that another Elizabeth is around somewhere in Columbia 2 but the Elizabeth from the first universe never runs into her? Why would the other characters collapse onto themselves but not the main characters? If anything Elizabeth wouldn't be affected because she is a special case, though I submit to you that characters merge states as inferred by the many cases of the dead/alive misfits.

Entities themselves don't merge states, but their minds/memories apparently do. All the evidence you should need that they don't merge is the fact that Comstock and Booker are fully capable of existing in the same timeline/can interact with each other without causing massive issues.

There should be an Elizabeth in the Vox Martyr timeline, and she would likely become super powered with the destruction of the Siphon. As for why Comstock felt it necessary to operate on our Elizabeth when he already had his own secured...and why he couldn't unleash her on us....*shrug*


To the above, the Cognitive Dissonance thing happens regardless of death. Male Lutece started hemmoraging when he came to the new timeline. Booker had to make up 20 years of memories when he was first brought to the initial Columbia timeline. Knowing you're entering tears may be why he never entered the quantum "is dead and isn't dead" state the guards did.

 

[NullPointer]

Entities themselves don't merge states, but their minds/memories apparently do.

Not sure about this.

What was up with the guards and Chen after going through the first major tear? They seemed to be physically in and out of reality, not just their memories.

 

[John Rabbit]

Not sure about this.

What was up with the guards and Chen after going through the first major tear? They seemed to be physically in and out of reality, not just their memories.

perhaps they are pulled through the tear because of their proximity?

Like I said before, I think Comstock and Booker's identities/traits(think about how different there bodies alone are) are split enough so that they don't counteract each other. This is why Booker doesn't get Comstock's memories when he enters any of the universes, but immediately gets Vox Booker's memories.

but he does, that's why he's able to see Comstock's vision of NYC burning. however, given the rosalind voxaphone about how 'your traits become diminished', Comstock and Booker are more different than they are similar at the time of the game's events. this is why Booker experiences some of Comstock's visions as dreams instead of actual 'memories'.

 

[DarkKyo]

The key distinction is death. The people suffering from the nosebleeds are suffering from a dissonance brought upon by remembering their deaths from other timelines. The guards at the police station in Shantytown, Chen Lin, and Our Booker all suffer from it. Simply being in the same timeline as a parallel you doesn't cause a merge. Otherwise Our Booker would've merged with Comstock the minute he was brought into the Columbia timeline by the Luteces.

Like I said before, I think Comstock and Booker's identities/traits(think about how different their bodies alone are) are split enough so that they don't counteract each other. This is why Booker doesn't get Comstock's memories when he enters any of the universes, but immediately gets Vox Booker's memories.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. The main characters only suffer the dissonance when there is a death involved. Elizabeth never has one on screen at any point IIRC.

Elizabeth doesn't have that dissonance but it could just be because the other Elizabeth didn't die(or she's a special case).

 

[Dresden]

Like I said before, I think Comstock and Booker's identities/traits(think about how different there bodies alone are) are split enough so that they don't counteract each other. This is why Booker doesn't get Comstock's memories when he enters any of the universes, but immediately gets Vox Booker's memories.

He doesn't even know he's 'the hero of the vox' until he sees the posters.

 

[Protome]

Like I said before, I think Comstock and Booker's identities/traits(think about how different there bodies alone are) are split enough so that they don't counteract each other. This is why Booker doesn't get Comstock's memories when he enters any of the universes, but immediately gets Vox Booker's memories.

He does get Comstock's memories though, he gets the memory of Comstock's vision in his "dreams."

 

[NullPointer]

perhaps they are pulled through the tear because of their proximity?

That'd be a very large hole, but proximity may indeed play a part, as these effects were generally seen near to the tears. Outside of reuniting with the ghost of Chen that is.

Seems pretty lucky that nobody else managed to lose any body parts in all the tears and portal jumps that may have occurred over time. If a pinky can turn one clever girl into a world dominating hell beast, I can only imagine what other accidents may have caused.

Edit: Damnit, I wish this spoiler thread still started with the word SPOILER. I have to triple check my posts before submitting just to be sure I'm not posting to the regular Bioshock Infinite OT. In my tabs they both look the same.

 

[Protome]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. The main characters only suffer the dissonance when there is a death involved. Elizabeth never has one on screen at any point IIRC.

There was no death involved in the Luteces story, yet the Male Lutece suffered the dissonance. His experience was the whole basis for their plan.

 

[Divvy]

That'd be a very large hole, but proximity may indeed play a part, as these effects were generally seen near to the tears. Outside of reuniting with the ghost of Chen that is.

Seems pretty lucky that nobody else managed to lose any body parts in all the tears and portal jumps that may have occurred over time. If a pinky can turn one clever girl into a world dominating hell beast, I can only imagine what other accidents may have caused.

Edit: Damnit, I wish this spoiler thread still started with the word SPOILER. I have to triple check my posts before submitting just to be sure I'm not posting to the regular Bioshock Infinite OT. In my tabs they both look the same.

I think it's also implied that Liz's powers got stronger as she matured, so perhaps only a child could get powers this way due to the way they develop?

 

[NullPointer]

There was no death involved in the Luteces story, yet the Male Lutece suffered the dissonance. His experience was the whole basis for their plan.

Weren't they "killed" when their machine was sabotaged?

I think it's also implied that Liz's powers got stronger as she matured, so perhaps only a child could get powers this way due to the way they develop?

We're definitely deep into the land of the arbitrary rules of reality, but I can accept that ;P

 

[kinoki]

Regarding Rapture and Booker. Wouldn't it be probable that in a timeline where Comstock exists but does not create Columbia starts drawing plans for an utopia outside of society. A young man by the name of Ryan is inspired by this and creates Rapture. He then invites Comstock to come and marvel at this city. Hence, the city is created, Booker can use the sea elevator.

 

[Salamando]

He doesn't even know he's 'the hero of the vox' until he sees the posters.

I believe the act of remembering comes into play here. IIRC, when he saw that poster, he started remembering things the Hero of the Vox did. Just as when Comstock was telling Booker about how much he knew about Booker's past, Booker's nose started to bleed as he himself tried recalling it.

The entire memory/cognitive dissonance thing was a really ugly plot device.

 

[John Rabbit]

That'd be a very large hole, but proximity may indeed play a part, as these effects were generally seen near to the tears. Outside of reuniting with the ghost of Chen that is.

chen's body is directly next to the tear when you go through. regardless of where he is in Columbia 2, his essence from Columbia 1 is near the tear, so at the moment they cross over, those two existences are merged.

 

[NullPointer]

chen's body is directly next to the tear when you go through. regardless of where he is in Columbia 2, his essence from Columbia 1 is near the tear, so at the moment they cross over, those two existences are merged.

Ahh, good point. You don't see his ghostly visage until you truck it back to his workshop, but you're absolutely right about where his body had been/is/will be.

 

[Trigger]

Like I said before, I think Comstock and Booker's identities/traits(think about how different their bodies alone are) are split enough so that they don't counteract each other. This is why Booker doesn't get Comstock's memories when he enters any of the universes, but immediately gets Vox Booker's memories.

Elizabeth doesn't have that dissonance but it could just be because the other Elizabeth didn't die(or she's a special case).

Fair enough. Liz is certainly an oddity, but this still leaves the issue that there's no proof of a merge ever happening. There's a list of patterns associated with it, and Liz doesn't display any of them.

There was no death involved in the Luteces story, yet the Male Lutece suffered the dissonance. His experience was the whole basis for their plan.

They also don't merge which disproves the notion that being in the same timeline as your parallel self causes a merge in the first place. I'm only disputing that Elizabeth from the A2 timeline doesn't appear because she merged with Our Liz. I don't think it's consistent with what the game showed us.

 

[DarkKyo]

They also don't merge which disproves the notion that being in the same timeline as your parallel self causes a merge in the first place. I'm only disputing that Elizabeth from the A2 timeline doesn't appear because she merged with Our Liz. I don't think it's consistent with what the game showed us.

I think they'd be another special case -- because their bodies and minds are different enough to the point where they are indeed different people. They obviously have philosophical differences and vastly different experiences/chemicals within due to being different sexes.

I wouldn't even call the process "merging". It's like you just become the Booker of that world as long as they have the same identity. What would be the point of absorbing their memories if you stayed a completely separate entity? I think that makes less sense.

However this is just my take on it, and you're right, it's hard to prove.

Edit: I think the fact that all Elizabeths that knew all Bookers in all Columbias can be represented by just 6 of them during the ending speaks to my theory, that you can collapse many different entities/identities as long as they are just similar enough

 

[Easy_D]

If there are infinite universes, shouldn't there be Comstocks who never had a baptism to begin with?

 

[GillianSeed79]

So I'm doing a replay and I got to the part where you are riding the skyline to Monument Island. As you are riding the skyline, you encounter a large group of enemies, but before they engage you, you hear Comstock ordering them to stand down and they all get on their knees and begin to pray. One guy says bless you father Washington. Then, just before you get on the elevator, Comstock appears on the big projection screen and tells you that you will always be a killer and all that. I'm wondering if it was actually Comstock or you that ordered them to stand down. I'm also wondering if the talking projection was a hallucination, since it switches from a static projector image of Comstock's portrait to a giant projection of him talking to you. This is the first time that Booker's nose begins to bleed and it's also the first time you can hear Booker's voice in Comstock's. It just seems weird that the real Comstock would actually order the men to stand down. It also seems weird that the men seemed awed by hearing Comstock's voice.. I guess it could suggest that Comstock rarely is seen/speaks in public or reveals himself to those in Columbia. Or, the men were looking at the projector image of Comstock, heard Booker speaking in Comstock's voice and thought that the projector image was talking/some sort of miracle/voice of God thing. I could be way off base.

 

[Divvy]

If there are infinite universes, shouldn't there be Comstocks who never had a baptism to begin with?

No. Comstock was the result of a baptism. There is no Comstock without it.

 

[Trigger]

If there are infinite universes, shouldn't there be Comstocks who never had a baptism to begin with?

Possibly? The Comstock who founded Columbia and created all these shenanigans became that way after his baptism. I suppose the nature of the infinite universes means that there could be other Bookers who took on that identity, but if they formed a Columbia and created a Liz then they're gone now.

 

[cabel]

(Booker is able to call either heads or tales on this section but the coin always lands on heads).

Still reading this thread, but I came here to say:

I swear to Comstock that I got tails.

The Luteces were very surprised and said something like "Well, you can't always be right."

So I declare this statement false.

AM I ALONE

 

[ScOULaris]

So why exactly would DeWitt have changed his name to Comstock in the "accept baptism" timeline? Is it just chalked up to him wanting to leave his past behind and be born anew?

Also, did Comstock specifically ask Lutece to take him to an alternate reality in which he (Booker) had a child so that he could kidnap her?

 

[DatDude]

One thing I consistently noticed throughout the game was the use of hummingbirds, reinforced by the nickelodeon towards the end. I don't know if this symbol has been discussed in detail, but below is some information I found that clearly identifies why hummingbirds are used throughout Infinite.

Really interesting stuff

 

[vas_a_morir]

Did they ever explain how Comstock was able to build this huge floating city so quickly?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Woman's intuition

 

[Zeliard]

Did they ever explain how Comstock was able to build this huge floating city so quickly?

Woman's intuition

Edit: you motherfu

 

[Neiteio]

Did they ever explain how Comstock was able to build this huge floating city so quickly?

I can't recall where it was said, but after gaining political influence, Comstock rallied the U.S. Congress to fund Columbia's creation. It then went on a goodwill tour around the world at the 1983 Chicago World Fair, and all was peachy until the Boxer Rebellion. Columbia shut it down and the the president took issue with it, so they seceded from the Union.

 

[Trigger]

So why exactly would DeWitt have changed his name to Comstock in the "accept baptism" timeline? Is it just chalked up to him wanting to leave his past behind and be born anew?

It's never stated. The name has some historical significance, but there's no way to know if that influenced Booker's choice.

Also, did Comstock specifically ask Lutece to take him to an alternate reality in which he (Booker) had a child so that he could kidnap her?

Yes. Or at least that's what is implied by Rosalind's voxophones. I doubt he was involuntarily participating, and theoretically most of Columbia's advances are due to the tears and science.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Also, did Comstock specifically ask Lutece to take him to an alternate reality in which he (Booker) had a child so that he could kidnap her?

Yes, he needed/wanted a blood relative to fulfill his "prophecy."

 

[Zeliard]

I recently started watching Fringe.

Some fun... parallels.

 

[Toa TAK]

Did they ever explain how Comstock was able to build this huge floating city so quickly?

Woman's intuition

Woman's intuition

Edit: you motherfu

lol.

Was anyone else a bit disappointed by the lack of Songbird? I thought a character that was marketed like that would've had a few more appearances then that. Not a boss or anything, but he was just there whenever the Airship or Booker needed to be tossed from the sky.

 

[Divvy]

So why exactly would DeWitt have changed his name to Comstock in the "accept baptism" timeline? Is it just chalked up to him wanting to leave his past behind and be born anew?

Also, did Comstock specifically ask Lutece to take him to an alternate reality in which he (Booker) had a child so that he could kidnap her?

Yes, Comstock believed in maintaining the purity of his bloodline, and since he was sterile, the only place to get a child with his blood was from himself in another timeline.

 

[Easy_D]

No. Comstock was the result of a baptism. There is no Comstock without it.

But if there are infinite possibilities. I can make up an infinite amount of possible scenarios, all which are likely to have happened. Unless there's some rules that I missed?

 

[Pagusas]

But if there are infinite possibilities. I can make up an infinite amount of possible scenarios, all which are likely to have happened. Unless there's some rules that I missed?

you missed the part where the universe created a rule saying Booker could not be baptised, thus there are no longer infinite possibilities. That seems to be where the game points you to, the universe is made up of varidables and constants. The universe turned Bookers choice from a veridable into a constant to eliminate a paradox, preventing one possible line that leads to comstock.

 

[ScOULaris]

After reading through this thread, I think I pretty much have a solid comprehension of this game's story and themes. That being said, it's a shame that such an interesting world and concept had to be translated into slaughtering endless waves of enemies 80% of the time during the game. That has already been discussed to death, I know, but this game is another perfect example of the cognitive dissonance issue that continues to plague games that try to have believable characters and intriguing stories.

That being said, the Songbird noise in BioShock 1 is simply insane. Someone needs to ask Levine about this. How could he have even had that sound recorded back then?

 

[GDJustin]

When Booker and Elizabeth walk through a couple tears mid-game, never to return, are we just to accept these moments as big plot holes? These bits bothered me to no end, but the plot keeps steamrolling forward without looking back so I was forced to just roll with them.

You're walking into ANOTHER WORLD :/ ... from the halfway point of the game through to the end you aren't even in the same Columbia you started in! Doesn't that mean there's some Columbia (Columbia Prime)... where Booker is sent on a mission to retrieve guns from Chen Lin, but then he just disappears, never to be seen again? Doesn't this also mean that in the "Chen Lin white wife" world there is another Elizabeth (and maybe booker) running around? And where is the other Elizabeth in the Vox Uprising/Booker martyr world?

I kept waiting for them to get back to the main Columbia... the one you spend the first half of the game in. But it's just gone for good.

The motivation of the characters doesn't even make sense, in these moments. "Oh no! Chen Lin's dead! Let's just tear into this other world to continue. I'm going to ASSUME (for some reason?) that in this world I still made a deal with Fitzroy... I guess?" They're LEAVING THEIR WORLD FOREVER. This should be a huge fucking deal for them, but they give it a moment's (poor) consideration before moving on.

I kept imagining them hopping into a new world, completing their mission and then Fitzroy saying "I have no idea what you're even talking about."

Hardly anyone else?