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[The One Who Knocks]

Still reading this thread, but I came here to say:

I swear to Comstock that I got tails.

The Luteces were very surprised and said something like "Well, you can't always be right."

So I declare this statement false.

AM I ALONE

That happens when one of the Luteces predict it'll be the opposite/when Booker calls incorrectly (I can't remember the exact scenario so that could be incorrect, but I know the line of dialogue you're referring to). If you watch you'll see they mark it on the "Heads" section on the board to show that the coin landed on heads, the only incorrect thing was the prediction.

EDIT: At the above

"from the halfway point of the game through to the end you aren't even in the same Columbia you started in! Doesn't that mean there's some Columbia (Columbia Prime)... where Booker is sent on a mission to retrieve guns from Chen Lin, but then he just disappears, never to be seen again? Doesn't this also mean that in the "Chen Lin white wife" world there is another Elizabeth (and maybe booker) running around? And where is the other Elizabeth in the Vox Uprising/Booker martyr world?"

Bolded bit, correct. Underlined bit, I've not seen much of an answer for this that makes sense to me. I think that is overlooked and is a plothole (similar to, I believe, how Monument Island is half in ruins in the final universe when the event that caused its ruin surely didn't occur).

The motivation of the characters doesn't even make sense, in these moments. "Oh no! Chen Lin's dead! Let's just tear into this other world to continue. I'm going to ASSUME (for some reason?) that in this world I still made a deal with Fitzroy... I guess?" They're LEAVING THEIR WORLD FOREVER. This should be a huge fucking deal for them, but they give it a moment's (poor) consideration before moving on."

I presume they think that because Elizabeth believes she opens tears that are a form of wish fulfillment. She opens tears that suit certain desires yet she fails to consider other possible things that may occur in that timeline (such as in the final tear). This, I presume, would be relevant to her opening the tear to view the Eiffel Tower and also in the Elevator, she can open specific tears that suit certain desires yet she cannot see everything that has occured in that timeline. This doesn't have any 'specific' answer, it's mostly just kind of washed away with Elizabeth's 'well I think it's a kind of wish fulfillment' belief.

 

[sn00zer]

Still reading this thread, but I came here to say:

I swear to Comstock that I got tails.

The Luteces were very surprised and said something like "Well, you can't always be right."

So I declare this statement false.

AM I ALONE

I was always wondering if this could happen....but put it in to a 1/1000000 chance so no one could get it on video to confirm it

 

[sn00zer]

Hardly anyone else?

I agree with this, it bugged me as well, but Im not very nitpicky with games

 

[Trigger]

Hardly anyone else?

I understand where you're coming from. But this is the same protagonist who drinks strange elixirs from bottles without reading the label.

I don't trust either's judgment.

 

[ScOULaris]

Watching the Polygon roundtable about Bioshock Infinite right now, and I can comfortably say that this is one of those games that is more fun to talk about than to play. Obviously the game's overarching concepts and the detail of its execution in certain ways are to thank for the rich discussion that can arise from it, but as I said before the mind-numbing shooter gameplay is in a lot of ways little more than an obstacle to enjoyably consuming the story.

I know, this is just my opinion. I realize that plenty of people enjoyed the game's combat.

 

[Protome]

Weren't they "killed" when their machine was sabotaged?


We're definitely deep into the land of the arbitrary rules of reality, but I can accept that ;P

That happened after the logs about male Lutece's dissonance happened (and before they bought Anna from Booker.) The machine sabotaging also didn't really kill them, it seems more like it did to them what happened to Elizabeth with her finger. Only their entire being is dispersed. "Yet, we are not dead. A theory: we are scattered amongst the possibility space."

I understand where you're coming from. But this is the same protagonist who drinks strange elixirs from bottles without reading the label.

I don't trust either's judgment.

In his defence, those are really nice bottles.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

That happened after the logs about male Lutece's dissonance happened (and before they bought Anna from Booker.) The machine sabotaging also didn't really kill them, it seems more like it did to them what happened to Elizabeth with her finger. Only their entire being is dispersed. "Yet, we are not dead. A theory: we are scattered amongst the possibility space."



In his defence, those are really nice bottles.

Yet Elizabeth did not stop existing in the plane of existence! And the Luteces are not limited by the Syphon.

 

[Protome]

Yet Elizabeth did not stop existing in the plane of existence! And the Luteces are not limited by the Syphon.

Elizabeth was only split between two different planes of existence. There are half as many Elizabeths as there are infinite possible universes.
The Luteces were both dispersed through all of possibility space. There are only two Luteces.
No idea about the Syphon. It had a bunch of Elizabeth's belongings in it, maybe it's specifically made for her?

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

I can't recall where it was said, but after gaining political influence, Comstock rallied the U.S. Congress to fund Columbia's creation. It then went on a goodwill tour around the world at the 1983 Chicago World Fair, and all was peachy until the Boxer Rebellion. Columbia shut it down and the the president took issue with it, so they seceded from the Union.

Fun fact, 1983 Chicago's World Fair was also called World's Fair: Columbian Exposition.
I see what you did there Ken Levine!

 

[Easy_D]

That happened after the logs about male Lutece's dissonance happened (and before they bought Anna from Booker.) The machine sabotaging also didn't really kill them, it seems more like it did to them what happened to Elizabeth with her finger. Only their entire being is dispersed. "Yet, we are not dead. A theory: we are scattered amongst the possibility space."



In his defence, those are really nice bottles.

They should do a limited run of Devil's Kiss liqour.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Elizabeth was only split between two different planes of existence. There are half as many Elizabeths as there are infinite possible universes.
The Luteces were both dispersed through all of possibility space. There are only two Luteces.
No idea about the Syphon. It had a bunch of Elizabeth's belongings in it, maybe it's specifically made for her?

That's a very good point! Maybe Elizabeth has a different resonance frequency than the Luteces so that's why they can use their abilities. But I'm getting to much into this, hehe.

 

[Protome]

That's a very good point! Maybe Elizabeth has a different resonance frequency than the Luteces so that's why they can use their abilities. But I'm getting to much into this, hehe.

Haha, me too.

I think the game's story is really well written, in a way that it seems to have a bunch of "plot holes" but those plot holes mostly can be explained away in the context of what we've learned over the game, they're just not explicitly explained.

The only big actual plot whole is where A2's Elizabeth went after Comstock took him to his mansion. The only explanation I can think of is that she opened a tear and ran away before he could stop her in all the panic of the Vox revolution. But that's never said anywhere in the game so it's pure speculation.

 

[Easy_D]

Has there been any speculation regarding whether the weird "hallucinations" you get when drinking vigors (Booker's hands melting when drinking Devil's Kiss for example) are actually alternate timelines where the vigors didn't work as intended? I mean femLutece says "I'm surprised it didn't kill him" when you get the shield vigor, so it seems there's a moderately high probability of vigors killing the user.

 

[DarkKyo]

Has there been any speculation regarding whether the weird "hallucinations" you get when drinking vigors (Booker's hands melting when drinking Devil's Kiss for example) are actually alternate timelines where the vigors didn't work as intended? I mean femLutece says "I'm surprised it didn't kill him" when you get the shield vigor, so it seems there's a moderately high probability of vigors killing the user.

Not nearly enough was explained about vigors, but as plasmids were tapping into/modifying genetics... I WANT to say vigors tap into alternate universes. Maybe they allow you to access micro tears full of designated energies?? Who knows.

 

[Korey]

Anyone else completely not happy with the post-credits scene explanation floating around?

The whole point, thematically, of the ending was that YOU, BOOKER had to die at the river, not just Comstock. Thus ending the cycle forever.

I understand the paradox explanation. I just don't accept it because it feels like that's not what Ken Levine wanted to do. And if it is, then it's kind of poorly done compared to how the ending was presented.

It's like, "here's a cool ending that wraps itself up very well. Oh wait there's an after credits scene...now go read some quantum physics theories to see how that fits in."

Therefore, I don't think the theory in the OP is correct.

 

[Protome]

Not nearly enough was explained about vigors, but as plasmids were tapping into/modifying genetics... I WANT to say vigors tap into alternate universes. Maybe they allow you to access micro tears full of designated energies?? Who knows.

The vigors just felt like a left over part of an earlier version of the game that had to be in for gameplay purposes but was never explained in the story.

I always took Lutece's joke about "I'm surprised it didn't kill him" to just be a reference to how badly the Bioshock 1 protagonist handled his first plasmid.

 

[John Rabbit]

Anyone else completely not happy with the post-credits scene explanation floating around?

The whole point, thematically, of the ending was that YOU, BOOKER had to die at the river, not just Comstock.

I understand the paradox explanation. I just don't accept it because it feels like that's not what Ken Levine wanted to do. And if it is, then it's kind of poorly done compared to how the ending was presented.

It's like, "here's a cool ending that wraps itself up very well. Oh wait there's an after credits scene...now go read some quantum physics theories to see how that fits in."

i would've preferred no coda. it felt slightly indulgent and too expected. its cool to actually end your story.

Vigors didn't need expansive explanation because like the Handymen and SongBird, they were an altered version of Rapture's tech. Fink's voxophone explain that he and his brother were stealing things from other worlds. Fink specifically says (paraphrasing here) "this biologist I'm watching is like Mozart." Which was the nickname of the biologist in Bioshock 1 that created plasmids.

This game was an entry in an already established IP so the background to everything didn't need to be explained for the player to get it. However they added the Voxophone entries AND they even have you go directly to Rapture during the course of the game. It could only be more obvious that a lot of Columbia's tech was plagerized from Raptures if a character came right out and said "Man that was awesome stealing all that stuff from that Rapture city we've seen through the tears!"

other than "Mozart" there is nothing to suggest anything in columbia was taken from rapture. the only explanation you need is that everything is possible when an infinite number of realities exist.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Vigors didn't need expansive explanation because like the Handymen and SongBird, they were an altered version of Rapture's tech. Fink's voxophone explain that he and his brother were stealing things from other worlds. Fink specifically says (paraphrasing here) "this biologist I'm watching is like Mozart." Which was the nickname of the biologist in Bioshock 1 that created plasmids.

This game was an entry in an already established IP so the background to everything didn't need to be explained for the player to get it. However they added the Voxophone entries AND they even have you go directly to Rapture during the course of the game. It could only be more obvious that a lot of Columbia's tech was plagerized from Raptures if a character came right out and said "Man that was awesome stealing all that stuff from that Rapture city we've seen through the tears!"

 

[Protome]

Vigors didn't need expansive explanation because like the Handymen and SongBird, they were an altered version of Rapture's tech. Fink's voxophone explain that he and his brother were stealing things from other worlds. Fink specifically says (paraphrasing here) "this biologist I'm watching is like Mozart." Which was the nickname of the biologist in Bioshock 1 that created plasmids.

This game was an entry in an already established IP so the background to everything didn't need to be explained for the player to get it. However they added the Voxophone entries AND they even have you go directly to Rapture during the course of the game. It could only be more obvious that a lot of Columbia's tech was plagerized from Raptures if a character came right out and said "Man that was awesome stealing all that stuff from that Rapture city we've seen through the tears!"

But plasmids only worked because of the Sea slugs. WHERE DID THEY GET SEA SLUGS IN THE SKY?!

 

[Aptos]

Why does drowning all Bookers necessitate only allowing "Booker rejects baptism" timelines? Why not destroy all the "Booker rejects baptism" timelines, and only have "Booker accepts baptism and becomes Comstock" timelines?

 

[Trigger]

But plasmids only worked because of the Sea slugs. WHERE DID THEY GET SEA SLUGS IN THE SKY?!

Fuck a slug. It's all about the salts man. Salts.

 

[Guevara]

But plasmids only worked because of the Sea slugs. WHERE DID THEY GET SEA SLUGS IN THE SKY?!

This bothered me all out of proportion. Why is no one using vigors? Why is there salt everywhere? What even is salt, it's literally salt like in food? ugh

 

[Protome]

Why does drowning all Bookers necessitate only allowing "Booker rejects baptism" timelines? Why not destroy all the "Booker rejects baptism" timelines, and only have "Booker accepts baptism and becomes Comstock" timelines?

I took it to mean that there is one Constant point. And every other timeline breaks off from there. Killing Booker at that constant point, stops any of the timelines from breaking off from there.

The post-credits nonsense was just their attempt at a happy ending in my opinion. But the paradox theory explains it well enough.

 

[Korey]

I took it to mean that there is one Constant point. And every other timeline breaks off from there. Killing Booker at that constant point, stops any of the timelines from breaking off from there.

The post-credits nonsense was just their attempt at a happy ending in my opinion. But the paradox theory explains it well enough.

They really should have just stopped at the credits.

 

[Protome]

They really should have just stopped at the credits.

I actually skipped the credits and was happy with the ending. Then I came to this thread and learned there was a post credits scene. You all ruined the game for me. Thanks a lot.

 

[Jest Chillin]

But plasmids only worked because of the Sea slugs. WHERE DID THEY GET SEA SLUGS IN THE SKY?!

The work was altered. Just like Handymen weren't direct rips of Big Daddy's.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

I still don't see why Lutece isn't prematurely aging like Comstock, she has been working with that machinery a lot longer than him.

 

[WatTsu]

I still don't see why Lutece isn't prematurely aging like Comstock, she has been working with that machinery a lot longer than him.

Wasn't she "killed", though? I assume her quantum self stayed the same age as when she "died".

 

[Deleted member 80556]

And perhaps because Lutece didn't start to observe into the probable future as often like Comstock did.

Anyway, the post-credits sequence helped me with the ending. It would've been horrible for me to just end it as it was.

 

[Salamando]

Wasn't she "killed", though? I assume her quantum self stayed the same age as when she "died".

Comstock aged really, really fast though. Wounded Knee happened late 1890. He was baptized in 1891 at the earliest. By 1893 he was already sterile, and by the time he baby-napped Anna, he was already sporting a mighty impressive beard.

 

[Mr. F]

And perhaps because Lutece didn't start to observe into the probable future as often like Comstock did.

Anyway, the post-credits sequence helped me with the ending. It would've been horrible for me to just end it as it was.

Yeah I'd imagine with Comstock's whole bit revolving around being a prophet that he'd be messing around with tears all the time in order to keep the 'visions' coming.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

Yeah, she worked and developed the tech, so I would imagine even if Comstock did use it a lot, she surely had to have been exposed to it even more creating it.

 

[Neiteio]

In the DLC, I'd like to learn more about how Columbia works. For example, where do they get their water? Perhaps they have facilities that capture it from clouds. How does the city stay warm and well-oxygenated high up in the atmosphere? Perhaps there's some sort of "field" that maintains their atmosphere. And what about the city's plumbing? Maybe shit flushed down the crapper literally just falls to the "Sodom Below." So much fun they can have with explaining the city.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Yeah I'd imagine with Comstock's whole bit revolving around being a prophet that he'd be messing around with tears all the time in order to keep the 'visions' coming.

But maybe she didn't interact with them. It's possible that Comstock might have trespassed them continuously. Or got too close. Closer than Lutece probably.

 

[Mr. F]

But maybe she didn't interact with them. It's possible that Comstock might have trespassed them continuously. Or got too close. Closer than Lutece probably.

Agreed. Considering Lutece's observations in the Voxophone about the adverse affects the exposure to tears is having on Comstock, I'd imagine s/he'd be smart enough to keep their distance from the contraption unless absolutely necessary.

 

[TrackerTrem]

I didn't like the Daisy Fitzroy arc. She could have been someone who could have been redeemed. How many people did Booker kill when he was a soldier? That whole Vox Populi storyline left a bad taste in my mouth for some reason...

oh and Daisy was Native American in one of the demos in 2012

 

[Deleted member 80556]

I didn't like the Daisy Fitzroy arc. She could have been someone who could have been redeemed. How many people did Booker kill when he was a soldier? That whole Vox Populi storyline left a bad taste in my mouth for some reason...

oh and Daisy was Native American in one of the demos in 2012

DLC, man!

Spoiler

I know. It's a damn shame this wasn't in the main game in the first place just like more Songbird.

 

[Andrew.]

Songbird is Andrew Ryan. I have proof.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

What did you do, Andrew?! WHAT DID YOU DO?!

Spoiler

Why the avatar change?!

 

[John Rabbit]

But maybe she didn't interact with them. It's possible that Comstock might have trespassed them continuously. Or got too close. Closer than Lutece probably.

Agreed. Considering Lutece's observations in the Voxophone about the adverse affects the exposure to tears is having on Comstock, I'd imagine s/he'd be smart enough to keep their distance from the contraption unless absolutely necessary.

the voxaphones suggest that use of the Lutece field degenerates (dissipates, renders unrecognizable) the genetic make-up of a person. in 1893, Comstock is rendered sterile. in 1907, his cancer ("metastasis aged him so quickly") is documented.

assuming that all realities are possible, and that within a person, there are an infinite number of ways in which their genes can be arranged, it's possible that the game's Comstock (as there is mention of at least one "fit" Comstock in another timeline) we see was already going to die of cancer, and that the "dissolution" of his genetic make-up allowed that happen to sooner.

while 14 years seems a long time for the Lutece's to remain unchanged, they never mention it in voxaphone or dialogue. it's probable then to conclude that observation of the Lutece field and tears is not (as) damaging as actually entering them. perhaps this is why Robert initiates the plan and not Rosalind, as he is the one who crossed over, and is more aware of the damage it can cause. or that entering the probability space allowed the Lutece's to bend space-time to their will, and appear as they want to, rather than as they are/were/will be.

Ok who else sobbed when Songbird dies, I don't know if it's the animal lover in me but jesus christ I absolutely lost it!

should i ever have the change to talk to ken levine in person, i'm going to give him a raft of shit over making me choose between being stunned at Rapture, and being crushed (no pun?) over songbird dying.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

Ok who else sobbed when Songbird dies, I don't know if it's the animal lover in me but jesus christ I absolutely lost it!

 

[TrackerTrem]

I personally think Songbird is a version of Booker that gets pulled in by the Luteces and experimented on...felt bad when it died too

 

[Andrew.]

What did you do, Andrew?! WHAT DID YOU DO?!

Why the avatar change?

Because Layne Staley is the one of the best vocalists ever and Im seeing the band in a couple weeks. Minus Layne obviously.

 

[McLovin]

Yeah that songbird moment was really sad. On the other end of the spectrum this moment scared the shit out of me.

 

[Andrew.]

i'm going to give him a raft of shit over making me choose between being stunned at Rapture, and being crushed (no pun?) over songbird dying.

That was some real borderline Ueda shit right there. Im sure 99% of the reactions of people seeing you be able to control Bird was "FUCK YEAH" and you grew that immediate attachment. To see him die so quickly and so devastatingly afterwards was so extremely heartbreaking.

 

[Trigger]

I personally think Songbird is a version of Booker that gets pulled in by the Luteces and experimented on...felt bad when it died too

I can totally see that. It was my pet theory going through the game.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

So in order to kill Comcast, Liz had to go to the first Comcast, which was actually Booker to prevent alternate universes of Booker/Comcast?

And I'm to assume that just like the coin flips throughout the game, it doesn't matter what Booker chooses, things are already set in motion?

 

[DJMicLuv]

That was some real borderline Ueda shit right there. Im sure 99% of the reactions of people seeing you be able to control Bird was "FUCK YEAH" and you grew that immediate attachment. To see him die so quickly and so devastatingly afterwards was so extremely heartbreaking.

I watched the bird die, and Elizabeth's reaction to it, and felt really moved by the scene.
Then I turned around...
RAPTURE! WFTOMGBBQ11!

I think it says a lot about Bioshock Infinite that by that point in the game I'd completely forgotten it was the sequel to a game I loved the shit out of.

 

[DatDude]

Songbird is Andrew Ryan. I have proof.

where?

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I'm still confused. If Booker and Comstock are the same person, why is Booker trying to kill himself (Comstock)? I thought there were infinite universes being played out?