Goddamn this game looks so good it hurts
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
Goddamn this game looks so good it hurts
Incendiary
Banned
I never really realized how Levine hyped 1999 mode up to be more than it actually ended up being. Yeah, you couldn't really upgrade all your abilities and guns, but you didn't really have to play it any differently. I wouldn't consider it profoundly different at all.
If only there were savegames
I really dislike the save system in this game...
Depends on how you look at it.
Realistically the trips were just a matter of chance and probability. The Luteces knew that at some point Booker would succeed on one of the trips. It didn't matter which, and it isn't a matter of necessarily anything else different happening that was special. It's just that was the trip that worked.
First you need to accept that the events don't unfold 100% the same. The infinite lighthouse thing was a giant metaphor for multiple gamers playing the same game, but each played it differently. "Things are the same, but different" and all that. If you look at the Steam Achievements for the game, 7% of Bookers don't make it to Columbia. Well over 40% never meet Old Liz.
Story-wise, it's implied that a new universe is created for every choice or random event. Considering the number of these that happen each second, an infinite number of Bookers will fail creating an infinite number of Old Liz's. We only need one Booker to succeed to stop everything, so there's enough Old Liz's to help everyone. The real question should be "why wait so long to do so? was there something special about Comstock house that made it easier to make tears there?"
Yeah, if I had known that I would have just stuck to an easier mode.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think she ever got to be really angry before, so she was just doing it for the first time!
That, or it's hard to convey emotions with this kinda models that were done for the characters.
I was hoping that 1999 had an extended ending. I wish more devs kinda did this with their games. It would be a great little bonus for the masochist players.
Mama Mia. Those screen shots...again thanks for taking them.
Just so beautiful to look at, and reminisce about my unforgettable adventure in columbia.
Thanks.
Fink's neck of the woods is much harder to cap than Hall of Heroes... Everything's so vertical that it's hard to do justice to the skyscrapers and statues. But I really like that area's red brick/gilded gold motif, as well as the abundant propaganda. I especially loved this hallway, after the first shootout in Beggars' Wharf:Also, I get a weird Scarlett Johansson vibe from these two shots, and I'm not even a fan of her:
Spring-Loaded
Member
I thought she had excellent facial expression in this game, especially compared to most games.
I live in the Nasti Nati, and alot of the Finkton factory, reminds me of the murals that are in the museums foyer.
Also, someone who is a student at college, and works full time, I was really able to relate to those people who worked in the factory.
That monotonous feeling, almost as if you were a slave to the "big man" of sorts.
Also, someone who is a student at college, and works full time, I was really able to relate to those people who worked in the factory.
That monotonous feeling, almost as if you were a slave to the "big man" of sorts.
AgentOtaku
Member
But trophies yo!
Seriously though, I really am enjoying it for what it is. Certainly has forced me to play the game differently from when I went through on Normal. So Ken wasn't too far off.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
How exactly can they completely wipe out Comstock from ever existing? If infinite worlds are made from every choice we make, wouldn't infinite Bookers arrive at the baptism? How does killing one from choosing whether or not to be baptized stop the infinite amount of others from doing it?
Anticitizen One
Banned
Ya I actually played that part twice and first I got tails second time I got heads
1 accept-baptism Booker spawns an infinite number of Comstock.
Think about that for a moment.
Blake'sGrave
Member
Songbird though.
Consider a single universe. The baptism creates a single branch (accept/reject), while infinite other choices create an infinite number of other universes from that single baptism. To drown Booker/stop Comstock, only a single Liz needs to succeed. That Liz will stop Comstock at her root baptism.
Looking at two universes, we now have two baptisms, each creating a single accept/reject branch. Each of these two universes follows the same "as long as one Liz succeeds, Comstock never exists" rule.
While an infinite number of Bookers will reach the baptism, an infinite number of Liz's will succeed, each needing only drown a single Booker.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
No affect.
The Librarian
Banned
I intend to write up what I did and didn't like about the game, but overall I loved it.
Comstock specifically mentions "Bring us the girl and wipe away the debt." Also, I don't think that scenario is entirely a construct of Booker, seeing as how you see signs for it all around (like on the Lighthouse door).
Also, does Comstock know that Booker doesn't know he's the father of Elizabeth? What, exactly, does Comstock know and not know about Elizabeth?
Dragon1893
Member
I'm playing through some games in my backlog now but I can't shake this itch to play Infinite again. Everything looks bland compared to Columbia and I miss having Liz around even when I'm playing other games lol.
IIRC Robert Lutece said that line, so we can assume Comstock is also present ouside the room/apartment.
The Librarian
Banned
Hm. True.
Also, did anybody else figure out who that lady was that called Elizabeth "Annabelle" in Battleship Bay?
Various Artists
Banned
Hypothetically. What would have happened if Elizabeth didn't know longitude and latitude and they went to NY?
Didn't we find her Voxophone after the area where you're ambushed? Her name is Esther and she was there to help get Elizabeth back for Comstock. The "Annabelle" thing was just checking if Liz would say her real name so her identity is confirmed.
Interfectum
Member
Beat it. Really enjoyed the game.
Would've liked to seen more multiverse jumping though, they seemed to stick on the Vox revolution one for a bit too long. Not really a complaint but when you did that first jump with the dead guy my mind started going wild with possibilities.
Also, did anyone else sort of assume Booker was Comstock around halfway through? It seemed to me that's where they were taking it.
Would've liked to seen more multiverse jumping though, they seemed to stick on the Vox revolution one for a bit too long. Not really a complaint but when you did that first jump with the dead guy my mind started going wild with possibilities.
Also, did anyone else sort of assume Booker was Comstock around halfway through? It seemed to me that's where they were taking it.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I started to suspect something when your in the wounded knee areas and Slate keeps saying that Comstock wasn't there but you were. It sent my mind in that direction
Sola Scriptura
Member
I was confused by that, as well. Clearly she was part of the Founders, but why did she call Elizabeth "Annabelle"? How did she know?
Sola Scriptura
Member
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
She didn't know. It was the code word given to her by Comstock to let everyone know Elizabeth was in the building. She had no idea of its significance.
No, or at least not until she became omniscient in the ending.
Sola Scriptura
Member
Makes sense. Was there a voxophone explaining this?
First of all, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I mean, you've got the simple paradox of the fact that if Comstock never existed Bioshock Infinite never existed, thus Comstock was never drowned, thus Comstock existed. And we know that Bioshock Infinite did exist - we played it - so we must assume that in at least a couple timelines, Comstock's there being a dick and ultimately winning.
Second, there's no way that the baptism is the defining moment here. I mean, it may be the choice that Booker makes that will ultimately lead to him becoming Comstock, but he'd just be a bitter old man yelling at clouds if he didn't meet Letuce and use the portals to become an all powerful profit who steals technology from alternate dimensions and rides in the clouds in a fantastic fucking floating city. I don't think the game really connects the dots from baptism to sky god very well.
But my point is, wouldn't the real turning point for everything be Letuce? Or at least Comstock meeting Letuce? Couldn't the turning point have been something as simple as delaying a train on a fateful day so they never meet? Why does the solution to all this require violence?
Or what about the infinite Comstocks that don't meet Letuce? Maybe they realize the error of their religious bigotry and become better people, using their religious piety to save sick, dying children or something? If there's an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of Comstocks, how does accepting a baptism guarantee that he becomes a mustache twirling super villain? Couldn't there have been other moments in Comstock's life where he makes a critical decision that could've changed the outcome? I find it hard to believe it's kill the guy who accepts God into his heart or nothing - in an infinite universe of infinite possibilities, the only solution they could think of was to kill someone who hadn't actually done anything wrong yet?
IAmtheFMan
Member
I live in the Nasti Nati, and alot of the Finkton factory, reminds me of the murals that are in the museums foyer.
Also, someone who is a student at college, and works full time, I was really able to relate to those people who worked in the factory.
That monotonous feeling, almost as if you were a slave to the "big man" of sorts.
Wow thanks. I was wondering why it seemed so familiar, and I totally remember those mosiacs from Union Terminal after all my field trips as a kid there.
Ultimadrago
Member
That's exactly the point. The paradox and all that it entails (the multiple timelines, our playthrough, any scenarios where Comstock is succesful, etc) can't exist so they're wiped from existence. The events of what we played no longer exists by the story's ending.
Elizabeth is the omniscient person here. If she came to conclusion that the baptism is the defining moment there's little reason to assume she's wrong.
It is possible for some version of Booker to become a nice Comstock, but if he became so after the baptism then he's wiped away due to paradox as well. Elizabeth wanted a way to stop him, and this was her choice. The morality of it may bother you, but it's understandable from her viewpoint.
Lord_Byron28
Member
Its not what Elizabeth wanted it was what Booker wanted. Booker said "lets smother that son of a bitch in his crib" than right before elizabeth opens the door she asks Booker if that is what he really wwants
The Librarian
Banned
It makes perfect sense. You're asking the wrong question. It's like a time-loop, and you're essentially asking the equivalent of, "How did all this get started?" That's like asking where the edge of the Earth is. It just is.
Infinite did exist, but it doesn't exist anymore.
There's no universe where Comstock founds Columbia and doesn't meet Lutece, because Lutece invents the technology to make Columbia fly.
Baptism is the defining moment because it is the defining moment. It's what sets him on his path.
Doesn't matter because Comstock needs Lutece, and without Lutece you can't have Columbia.
Except that it doesn't wipe out all possibilities. At the end credits, we see that the Booker that doesn't take the baptism survives. Anna is still born, and presumably, Booker still has a gambling debt. Is it not possible that decisions made by a single father with a gambling debt could not lead to another baptism? Letuce still exists and will have still found the portals, so even if Comstock isn't the one who ultimately exploits it, somebody else will. There's no way - NO WAY - that the invention of a floating city wouldn't lead to America becoming the dominant military force in the near future. That raining fire on top of New York should just be changed to raining fire on top of Berlin during World War I. Such technology would change warfare forever.
Comstock is not the defining factor here. Even if I accept that killing Booker at the baptism would prevent a certain Comstock and certain sequence of events from happening across all timelines, Comstock isn't the problem. The technology used (and abused) by Letuce is. Letuce is the problem. And even if you got rid of Letuce, such miracles of physics would still be possible in that collection of universes and getting rid of Letuce would only delay their inevitable discovery. So instead of Letuce and Comstock in 1912, maybe it happens to von Braun and Hitler twenty-five years later.
Elizabeth's problem has been solved, but a whole host of problems are still potentially out there. So ultimately, Elizabeth murdering her father and savior was just an act of extreme selfishness.
That's too much hand waving for my taste. It rings false.
The Librarian
Banned
None of that matters because it doesn't relate to the story of Infinite.
I've never seen people try so hard to make a game's story look bad when it isn't. It's really funny.
Someone inventing time travel might just be a constant. Stopping that wasn't at any point the goal of the characters or the point of the story. The Luteces aren't the concern because of that.
Then it's someone else's journey to stop those bad guys if they exploit time tears.
And there's nothing wrong about that outside of the morality of it all. Liz and Booker had the choice and this is the solution they're path led to. The plot isn't about stopping every bad guy ever, just the Comstocks who created Columbias. A character doing something we don't agree with is a common notion in fiction.
What rings false to you about this?
So, omnipotent god-like being can not think of a better solution than a weak suggestion made in a moment of anger by a person who did not know all the facts?
The idea is that if you could go back in time and kill Hitler, would you? But is killing Hitler really the best solution. What if Hitler had just gotten into art school? What if Hitler never spent time in jail? Heck, what if the first World War had ended a year earlier? Hitler was a bad person, but he was a bad person because of MANY choices he made in his life, mixed with opportunities of power.
To take it another way, what if Booker never battled at Wounded Knee? How did the baptism become the defining choice and not any of the events that lead up to it? How did all this get started by a baptism?
But that's not logically consistent. How does the death of a single person (which must be a common occurrence in an infinite number of realities - like one where Booker is killed at Wounded Knee, for example, or killed helping the Vox rebellion) suddenly destroy an infinite number of realities?
What you are essentially arguing is that there are a finite number of realities, heavily dependent on whether someone slips on a bar of soap in the bathroom or not.
But his path needed opportunity and purpose - the things given to him by Letuce's invention. The baptism is the defining moment for Comstock, but not the defining moment for the suffering that follows.
The Librarian
Banned
None of that matters because it doesn't deal with Booker and Liz.
Doesn't matter. It all for started with baptism because that's what Booker needed to artificially forgive himself.
It doesn't. Only those that lead to certain outcomes.
And Comstock is needed for the suffering because he causes it. That's why baptism is the defining moment.
gollumsluvslave
Member
And that still bothers me, in terms of the writer's choice of that event being the defining one. It's trite to make everything pivot on the choice of a baptism IMO.
Comstock the character (or the possibility of him) to me was made during the trauma of what Booker experienced at Wounded Knee, and I just think there was more to examine there as the root than whether Booker decides to take a baptism or not.
As I said earlier, I prefer the idea that in the Comstock reality Booker murdered a child at Wounded Knee (this is heavily implied) but the game Booker somehow made a choice not to kill a child, but was still scarred so much by the experience.
This type of root choice makes much more sense to me, and everything else would have flowed on and still worked, but we would have had so many more things resonating; Comstock goes sterile - Karma
Booker has Anna, but the choice is then echoed by choosing to sell her then recanting.
Echoes harvesting Little Sisters in Bioshock.
I just hate the fact that the choice 'root' is down to a baptism. Like really? Just doesn't wash with me (no pun intended).
But it is what it is I guess...
MMBosstones86
Member
But the Baptism is the creation of "Comstock". If there exists just one universe where he comes to existence, then there is a possibility that he creates Columbia, then there is a possibility of stealing Anna, etc.
The purpose of the end-game is to ensure the events Comstock (Columbia, Anna/Liz, tears, etc.) NEVER come to fruition. The ONLY possible way to ensure that across every universe, is to ensure Comstock never comes to be.
There is literally no other origin point for Comstock other than the Baptism (that we are concerned with).
What? Where was this implied?
Kinda sucks though. We also end every universe where Comstock used Columbia as a source of genuine good. You know, like the ones where he used his tears to cure cancer and sterility instead of resorting to baby-napping...or the ones where he used a floating city as an incredibly mobile disaster relief platform. But we're supposed to ignore those universes since the game never presents them to us. It just tells us Comstock is universally evil, whereas if every choice creates a branch, then there are infinite universes where he is good.
The entire "every choice creates a branch" thing is murky too. Isn't drowning Booker a choice, and thus creates a universe where Liz decides not to drown Booker, allowing Comstock to exist?
gollumsluvslave
Member
As Wounded Knee was a historical event we know that women and children of the Latoka were massacred there, in addition to unarmed warriors too.
Every time the battle is alluded to in Infinite there is the implication that Booker did something that was a much more heinous crime than just killing...or at least that is what I took from it, especially in Hall of Heroes. When Booker rejects the baptism it is implied that some things can't be forgiven, leading me to surmise that Booker killed/ or was at least present when women/children were massacred. If not, then what about Wounded Knee would be worse than all of the Columbia innocents that Booker has murdered during the game itself?
