Support NeoGAF

[BruceLeeRoy]

Salvation from the cruel massacre of innocent people cannot come in the form of the cruel massacre of innocent people - yeah, maybe Columbia destroys New York, but what about China. Elizabeth not only removed from existence people who weren't part of her little insular problems, she also removed from existence the lessons that would ultimately be learned from such a tragedy almost certainly ensuring that it will be repeated. It's like if we hadn't dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima - many, many lives would've been saved, but without learning the horrific reality of such warfare, what would've happened during the Cold War? The concept of mutually assured destruction only works if both sides are completely aware of the consequences of their actions (ask North Korea what they think nuclear warfare will do for them).

It's possible that Elizabeth destroyed a BETTER future.

You can't be serious

 

[MMBosstones86]

Salvation from the cruel massacre of innocent people cannot come in the form of the cruel massacre of innocent people - yeah, maybe Columbia destroys New York, but what about China. Elizabeth not only removed from existence people who weren't part of her little insular problems, she also removed from existence the lessons that would ultimately be learned from such a tragedy almost certainly ensuring that it will be repeated. It's like if we hadn't dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima - many, many lives would've been saved, but without learning the horrific reality of such warfare, what would've happened during the Cold War? The concept of mutually assured destruction only works if both sides are completely aware of the consequences of their actions (ask North Korea what they think nuclear warfare will do for them).

It's possible that Elizabeth destroyed a BETTER future.

 

[Sqorgar]

the creators never meant for that to be answered. Now you are once again asking for something that wasn't intended to be answered. There is nothing wrong with that, but to discredit what is for what could have been possible is weird to me.

I'm not discrediting it. I'm simply pointing out that her actions ERASED entire futures - millions and billions of years of futures - from existence, and this kind of decision has far reaching consequences above and beyond simply stopping Comstock. It is a permanent answer to a temporary problem.

The game never even remotely gives the impression that it understands this. We are meant to believe that Comstock is such a horrible person that it is better to destroy an infinite number of histories to defeat him, and I don't buy it. We've had worse tyrants in real life, and we got better because of it. It's not like the removal of Comstock would remove the social injustices of racism and religion. It's not like infini-killing him is going to make the technology that built Columbia cease to exist (or at the very least, be possible) or remove the possibility of it being used for genocide and slaughter.

All I'm saying is that killing Comstock is one thing. Killing all the futures in which Comstock existed is entirely different.

 

[Salamando]

Salvation from the cruel massacre of innocent people cannot come in the form of the cruel massacre of innocent people - yeah, maybe Columbia destroys New York, but what about China. Elizabeth not only removed from existence people who weren't part of her little insular problems, she also removed from existence the lessons that would ultimately be learned from such a tragedy almost certainly ensuring that it will be repeated. It's like if we hadn't dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima - many, many lives would've been saved, but without learning the horrific reality of such warfare, what would've happened during the Cold War? The concept of mutually assured destruction only works if both sides are completely aware of the consequences of their actions (ask North Korea what they think nuclear warfare will do for them).

It's possible that Elizabeth destroyed a BETTER future.

Should've just referenced the intro to Command and Conquer: Red Alert. Einstein travels to the past and removes Hitler from rising to power, only to find out that it caused Stalin's forces to go unchecked and pose a serious threat to the rest of the world. Messing with time never has the outcome you wish it had.

I suggest you stop thinking about the ending. The more you think about it, the more you'll hate it. You'll start asking "where'd the Luteces get the ability to make the tear for Booker to come though? Why couldn't they just open a tear to the tower, sneak Liz out to a universe with no siphon, making her omnipotent? Why was the Memorial Tower in Vox Martyr Booker's universe damaged, when Liz wasn't in it? Did Comstock have Songbird actively seek out Booker to take him down? Why didn't the Luteces just tell their past selves to never work with Comstock/Dewitt? Liz wasn't content with stopping one tyrant in one universe, so she wanted to stop one tyrant in all universes...was Comstock really the tyrant with the highest net body count? Were his actions the single largest killer in all time/space?"

 

[njean777]

You are still going beyond the plot though. And how do you know the rules of the universe? Nobody knows them no matter what they say. Nobody has ever time traveled therefore acting like you know the rules of changing universes baffles me.

 

[Zeliard]

Columbia is referenced multiple times as a Noah's Ark and that Comstock intended to usher in a new dawn. It was always my impression that New York was simply the beginning, owing to the "prophetic visions" he received through the tears.

Are we supposed to think the dude would have stopped at NYC and called it a day? Columbia was built specifically be an enormous flying warship, and it's massively technologically advanced. Also look at what it took to stop even one Songbird - what if they are able to build a fleet of them? Comstock's Columbia would have been a terror to the entire planet. That's the future they were preventing.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Also, I don't know anything about HeroClix, but I kiiiiiinda want to but this whole set

Oh..My..

I must have.

 

[The Librarian]

I suggest you stop thinking about the ending. The more you think about it, the more you'll hate it. You'll start asking "where'd the Luteces get the ability to make the tear for Booker to come though? Why couldn't they just open a tear to the tower, sneak Liz out to a universe with no siphon, making her omnipotent? Why was the Memorial Tower in Vox Martyr Booker's universe damaged, when Liz wasn't in it? Did Comstock have Songbird actively seek out Booker to take him down? Why didn't the Luteces just tell their past selves to never work with Comstock/Dewitt? Liz wasn't content with stopping one tyrant in one universe, so she wanted to stop one tyrant in all universes...was Comstock really the tyrant with the highest net body count? Were his actions the single largest killer in all time/space?"

1. Because the Luteces are trans-dimensional.
2. Because Booker and Liz need to get to the point where they could put a stop to it all.
3. Not sure what you mean by the third question, as Booker probably got Liz out then died.
4. Of course. Songbird just couldn't find them until at certain points within the game.
5. Because they'd have to visit all the realities where as Liz could do it in one swoop. Also, it's not certain they can go back in time within their own universe, plus Comstock has a lot of money. Probably would've gotten the technology anyway.
6. Don't understand the points of the last two questions.

 

[CambriaRising]

The red Handyman? That's the Vox Handyman, and you fight him at Fink's Factory, where Daisy's holding Fink's son hostage. No firemen or Crows though?

It's funny. On my first play-through it was the Vox Handyman, but on my second it was a Founder Handyman.

 

[Trigger]

It's funny. On my first play-through it was the Vox Handyman, but on my second it was a Founder Handyman.

I swore the same thing happened to me in reverse. My initial 1999 mode run had a Founder Handyman in that fight, but it was a Vox handyman the second time I played the scenario. lol, maybe I'm just imagining things.

 

[Salamando]

1. Because the Luteces are trans-dimensional.
2. Because Booker and Liz need to get to the point where they could put a stop to it all.
3. Not sure what you mean by the third question, as Booker probably got Liz out then died.
4. Of course. Songbird just couldn't find them until at certain points within the game.
5. Because they'd have to visit all the realities where as Liz could do it in one swoop. Also, it's not certain they can go back in time within their own universe, plus Comstock has a lot of money. Probably would've gotten the technology anyway.
6. Don't understand the points of the last two questions.

1) They're transdimensional, their bodies are split across all possibility space, but that's the only tear they ever open. If they really wanted to help, why not run around, open up more tears, drastically increase the rate of success?
2) Could put a stop to it all, or want to put a stop to it all? Only thing I can think of...
3) In a voxophone, Vox Martyr Dewitt said Monument Island was a ghost town...the girl was evacuated when they found out he was there. So why was the building half-destroyed when we saw it at the end? Did Comstock decide to have Songbird chase Dewitt through the tower, potentially destroying it, for giggles?
5) Thought the ending directly implied that they could go back in time within their own universe. At minimum, that an entity can quantum-leap back into a past self. Infinite number of failure-Liz's jumping into past Liz's and never joining Dewitt? Given a vast ocean of possibilities and more than 15 minutes to learn how to utilize her omnipotence, she could figure it out.

The last part was more questioning her motives. She explicitly said stopping one Comstock wasn't enough...she had to stop all Comstocks. But she only stopped Comstocks. There's still an infinite number of people that caused extinction level events. To choose to stop Comstock amongst all other monsters across time and space? That implies future Liz did something much worse than just scorch the earth.

I'm hoping one DLC pack deals with a universe where Booker never came for Liz, allowing her to fully become the monster Comstock wanted her to be. She'd have a floating fortress, no tear inhibitors, no Siphon, a true terror across all universes. That is something worth stopping, and something I want to see.

 

[waters10]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this was discussed before, but was anyone a bit disappointed that there's only 3 years gap between Wounded Knee and Columbia Launch/Anna birth?

For Comstock, between 1890 and 1893, he had a 180 religious transformation instead of a gradual one. He met Lutece, she invented the tech that allow Columbia to exist. He planned, fund and built the city in record time. Lutece also had time to invent the machine to open tears. Comstock used it a lot, cause he got sterile, tried to have kids with Lady Comstock and came up with the idea of stealing his own child. All of that in 3 years ...

For Booker, that also means, he got into debt/gambling, met his wife and got a kid. Much more believable, but still pretty damn quick.

I just think that it would make things more believable if this happened in 10 years or so, instead of 3. And I think a gradual transformation after baptism, in the sense that he instantly stop feeling remorse for his sins, but is not a megalomaniac just yet. That should've happened more gradually.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

3) In a voxophone, Vox Martyr Dewitt said Monument Island was a ghost town...the girl was evacuated when they found out he was there. So why was the building half-destroyed when we saw it at the end? Did Comstock decide to have Songbird chase Dewitt through the tower, potentially destroying it, for giggles?
.

Do we know that it was Comstock who "sent" Songbird or was he made aware of Booker by himself? And likewise I agree when he said Songbird was underutilized...I mean I get it, but there should have been more scenes like the one before Comstock house.

 

[Anticitizen One]

Where in the game was it revealed that Booker was mocked because people thought he was part indian?

 

[Guess Who]

Where in the game was it revealed that Booker was mocked because people thought he was part indian?

There was a voxophone by Comstock to that effect - that his fellow soldiers at Wounded Knee cracked jokes that he had a teepee in his bloodline.

 

[Salamando]

Do we know that it was Comstock who "sent" Songbird or was he made aware of Booker by himself? And likewise I agree when he said Songbird was underutilized...I mean I get it, but there should have been more scenes like the one before Comstock house.

It was implied that he was built similar to Big Daddy. Whether that included the devotion to a "little sister" to the extent that separation causes pain, I dunno. In the universe we started in, we fell through the floor of Songbird's cage, he returned from an errand, and the chase began. In the vox martyr timeline, Liz wasn't in the tower, so the only reason Songbird would be is if Comstock sent him.

 

[Incendiary]

It was implied that he was built similar to Big Daddy. Whether that included the devotion to a "little sister" to the extent that separation causes pain, I dunno. In the universe we started in, we fell through the floor of Songbird's cage, he returned from an errand, and the chase began. In the vox martyr timeline, Liz wasn't in the tower, so the only reason Songbird would be is if Comstock sent him.

That's one of the weird things about Songbird. Like Columbia was a pretty big place, and yet it heard the whistle from anywhere and showed up immediately. I guess Elizabeth had something on her that activated the whistling robots.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I'm not discrediting it. I'm simply pointing out that her actions ERASED entire futures - millions and billions of years of futures - from existence, and this kind of decision has far reaching consequences above and beyond simply stopping Comstock. It is a permanent answer to a temporary problem.

The game never even remotely gives the impression that it understands this. We are meant to believe that Comstock is such a horrible person that it is better to destroy an infinite number of histories to defeat him, and I don't buy it. We've had worse tyrants in real life, and we got better because of it. It's not like the removal of Comstock would remove the social injustices of racism and religion. It's not like infini-killing him is going to make the technology that built Columbia cease to exist (or at the very least, be possible) or remove the possibility of it being used for genocide and slaughter.

All I'm saying is that killing Comstock is one thing. Killing all the futures in which Comstock existed is entirely different.

The problem that is being solved isn't "Comstock is a bad person and shouldn't exist".

There are two problems central to the plot.

1. The personal story of Booker/Comstock.
2. The issue of the universe being contorted into a paradox by inter-dimensional travel.

In regards to the second issue, the only way to close off the inter-dimensional loop that has been caused, Comstock needs to never exist in any Dimension. If he is around in even one events will continue to perpetuate. The goal isn't to choose the "best world" it is to return the universe to it's natural state.

Which ties into the first issue, which is the central issue. Booker/Comstock and salvation. Infinite is a story about what happens to a man who is unable to forgive himself because he can't face the reality of what he did. What he is. At the baptism, Comstock allows the idea that God has forgiven him to consume him. He no longer needs to forgive himself. He concedes responsibility to God and eventually to an ideology that says that the ills of the world are not his fault. They are all from the sodom below.

Booker refuses baptism, but that does not mean that he accepts responsibility. Instead he becomes a Pinkerton, a gambler, a drunk, anything to keep from dealing with his reality. To truly atone, both men both men become one and destroy themselves as an act of penance.

Booker is just as "evil" as Comstock. We learn how Booker slaughtered Native Americans with abandon because there where whispers amongst the soldiers that he was a sympathizer or perhaps part indian himself. In another voxaphone we learn that Booker speaks some Sioux, which also implies that he has native roots. (This also explains why Comstock leans so hard towards xenophobia). Booker is extremely violent. He was a Pinkerton. He gave away his child.

The "hero" Booker that we see through most of the game is a broken man who, when given the chance to rewrite his memories, made himself a nobel man who is charged with saving a princess. But the real "Booker" is always there, under the surface, carving a violent sociopathic path through Columbia.

 

[SirMossyBloke]

The red Handyman? That's the Vox Handyman, and you fight him at Fink's Factory, where Daisy's holding Fink's son hostage. No firemen or Crows though?

Hang on, hang on, hang on. That guy you see Daisy kill behind the glass was FINK? God dammit...why didn't I ever make that connection.

I always wondered how he died. I think it confused me because the voxophone next to him was Booker's.

 

[Trigger]

Where in the game was it revealed that Booker was mocked because people thought he was part indian?

"In front of all the men, the sergeant looked at me and said, 'Your family tree shelters a teepee or two, doesn't it, son?' This lie, this calumny, had followed me all my life. From that day, no man truly called me comrade. It was only when I burnt the teepees with the squaws inside, did they take me as one of their own. Only blood can redeem blood."

x

 

[Anticitizen One]

x

So was it just a lie spread about him or was it really true that he was part indian? Reason I ask is because later in the game theres a voxophone from that bounty hunter that says Booker (the booker who became vox leader I guess) can speak indian and was able to translate things for him.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Consider a single universe. The baptism creates a single branch (accept/reject), while infinite other choices create an infinite number of other universes from that single baptism. To drown Booker/stop Comstock, only a single Liz needs to succeed. That Liz will stop Comstock at her root baptism.

Looking at two universes, we now have two baptisms, each creating a single accept/reject branch. Each of these two universes follows the same "as long as one Liz succeeds, Comstock never exists" rule.

While an infinite number of Bookers will reach the baptism, an infinite number of Liz's will succeed, each needing only drown a single Booker.

Eh, I guess I am just not understanding how killing one Booker pre-Comstock stops all Comstocks. What if the morning of the baptism, Booker has to choose between suit A and suit B? What if he chooses A in one universe and B in an alternate one, but in both, goes to the baptism and chooses baptism? And in alternate universes, does not? You'd have multiple Comstocks running around and killing one Booker would not stop them all. You'd then have to go back further and kill him before the suit choice I guess.

So is the game saying this baptism is the absolute last chance to end off all Comstocks? I guess that would make sense. And they go and kill Booker in an infinite amount of universes? I was under the impression if they killed him in this one universe, it would undo all the others.

 

[Trigger]

So was it just a lie spread about him or was it really true that he was part indian? Reason I ask is because later in the game theres a voxophone from that bounty hunter that says Booker (the booker who became vox leader I guess) can speak indian and was able to translate things for him.

It's not very clear. It's another grey area in the plot.

 

[Divvy]

Haha looks like Columbia's got it's own lonely otakus

 

[DatDude]

It's not very clear. It's another grey area in the plot.

It's confirmed on the bioshock infinite wiki that booker is half native american.

 

[DatDude]

I'm not discrediting it. I'm simply pointing out that her actions ERASED entire futures - millions and billions of years of futures - from existence, and this kind of decision has far reaching consequences above and beyond simply stopping Comstock. It is a permanent answer to a temporary problem.

The game never even remotely gives the impression that it understands this. We are meant to believe that Comstock is such a horrible person that it is better to destroy an infinite number of histories to defeat him, and I don't buy it. We've had worse tyrants in real life, and we got better because of it. It's not like the removal of Comstock would remove the social injustices of racism and religion. It's not like infini-killing him is going to make the technology that built Columbia cease to exist (or at the very least, be possible) or remove the possibility of it being used for genocide and slaughter.

All I'm saying is that killing Comstock is one thing. Killing all the futures in which Comstock existed is entirely different.

It might be just me, but it feels like you're overthinking/over analyzing this plot WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY too much.

Makes me wonder how you're able to enjoy any type of narrative, without scrutinizing it to microscopic depths.

 

[Salamando]

Eh, I guess I am just not understanding how killing one Booker pre-Comstock stops all Comstocks. What if the morning of the baptism, Booker has to choose between suit A and suit B? What if he chooses A in one universe and B in an alternate one, but in both, goes to the baptism and chooses baptism? And in alternate universes, does not? You'd have multiple Comstocks running around and killing one Booker would not stop them all. You'd then have to go back further and kill him before the suit choice I guess.

So is the game saying this baptism is the absolute last chance to end off all Comstocks? I guess that would make sense. And they go and kill Booker in an infinite amount of universes? I was under the impression if they killed him in this one universe, it would undo all the others.

Killing one Booker doesn't do it. Infinite Bookers need to be killed, but each Liz only needs to kill one Booker. Here's my attempt to explain it in picture form.

 

[The Librarian]

1) They're transdimensional, their bodies are split across all possibility space, but that's the only tear they ever open. If they really wanted to help, why not run around, open up more tears, drastically increase the rate of success?
2) Could put a stop to it all, or want to put a stop to it all? Only thing I can think of...
3) In a voxophone, Vox Martyr Dewitt said Monument Island was a ghost town...the girl was evacuated when they found out he was there. So why was the building half-destroyed when we saw it at the end? Did Comstock decide to have Songbird chase Dewitt through the tower, potentially destroying it, for giggles?
5) Thought the ending directly implied that they could go back in time within their own universe. At minimum, that an entity can quantum-leap back into a past self. Infinite number of failure-Liz's jumping into past Liz's and never joining Dewitt? Given a vast ocean of possibilities and more than 15 minutes to learn how to utilize her omnipotence, she could figure it out.

The last part was more questioning her motives. She explicitly said stopping one Comstock wasn't enough...she had to stop all Comstocks. But she only stopped Comstocks. There's still an infinite number of people that caused extinction level events. To choose to stop Comstock amongst all other monsters across time and space? That implies future Liz did something much worse than just scorch the earth.

I'm hoping one DLC pack deals with a universe where Booker never came for Liz, allowing her to fully become the monster Comstock wanted her to be. She'd have a floating fortress, no tear inhibitors, no Siphon, a true terror across all universes. That is something worth stopping, and something I want to see.

1. Obviously they can't do more otherwise they would do more. They seem very, very limited in their capacity to assist. Could be explored by the DLC.
2. Robert Lutece felt bad about the deal, so they needed Booker and Liz to correct it all (connects to number 1).
3. This whole point here doesn't matter.
5. Dude, there's a reason why the Lutece's keep borrowing Bookers from other universes.
6. Who cares about other extinction-level events? Why are you even bringing this up? That's outside the story. It has nothing to do with the game.

 

[Rapstah]

I imagine the tower being destroyed in the Vox Booker universe can be explained by the Vox uprising. I don't see how that's an offensively bad question though, it's not like new questions haven't been scraping the barrel since everyone figured out everything there is to figure out two days after the game came out.

 

[Guevara]

I thought this was funny

PLOT SUMMARY, BIOSHOCK INFINITE

A gruff male with the pleasantly old-timey name of Booker DeWitt travels by rocket chair to Columbia, a flying city where people make 20 second recordings of their deepest secrets and leave them lying around in cupboards. He has been sent to retrieve a woman named Elizabeth, who has the magical ability to summon a box full of first aid kits from an alternate dimension.

Booker wanders around in awe, observing the racist population as they throw machine gun ammunition in the trash and stare silently at nothing. But his sightseeing is cut short when a policeman tries to grab him and he's forced to explode 1000 heads with a giant rotating hook in self-defence.

After exploding enough heads, Booker is taken to an alternate reality where the underclass of Columbia has risen up in rebellion. "These revolutionaries are as bad as their racist oppressors," says the deadliest serial killer in the history of human civilization, "because they are violent." Fortunately, the entire setting is erased from existence and nothing of consequence ever happens. Metacritic rating 95 (94 on Xbox).

http://bphennessy.com/bioshock.html

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Killing one Booker doesn't do it. Infinite Bookers need to be killed, but each Liz only needs to kill one Booker. Here's my attempt to explain it in picture form.

If they need to kill all, how does the one Booker that like 4-5 Liz's drown ressult in all of them vanishing? Not saying you're wrong.

 

[Sqorgar]

It might be just me, but it feels like you're overthinking/over analyzing this plot WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY too much.

Dude. It's a plot involving a lot of controversial ideas, that uses subtle metaphorical constructs to emphasize its thematic structure. It's fucking begging to be over analyzed. Look at the way it is dressed!

The problem that is being solved isn't "Comstock is a bad person and shouldn't exist".

There are two problems central to the plot.

1. The personal story of Booker/Comstock.
2. The issue of the universe being contorted into a paradox by inter-dimensional travel.

In regards to the second issue, the only way to close off the inter-dimensional loop that has been caused, Comstock needs to never exist in any Dimension. If he is around in even one events will continue to perpetuate. The goal isn't to choose the "best world" it is to return the universe to it's natural state.

Which ties into the first issue, which is the central issue. Booker/Comstock and salvation. Infinite is a story about what happens to a man who is unable to forgive himself because he can't face the reality of what he did. What he is. At the baptism, Comstock allows the idea that God has forgiven him to consume him. He no longer needs to forgive himself. He concedes responsibility to God and eventually to an ideology that says that the ills of the world are not his fault. They are all from the sodom below.

Booker refuses baptism, but that does not mean that he accepts responsibility. Instead he becomes a Pinkerton, a gambler, a drunk, anything to keep from dealing with his reality. To truly atone, both men both men become one and destroy themselves as an act of penance.

Booker is just as "evil" as Comstock. We learn how Booker slaughtered Native Americans with abandon because there where whispers amongst the soldiers that he was a sympathizer or perhaps part indian himself. In another voxaphone we learn that Booker speaks some Sioux, which also implies that he has native roots. (This also explains why Comstock leans so hard towards xenophobia). Booker is extremely violent. He was a Pinkerton. He gave away his child.

The "hero" Booker that we see through most of the game is a broken man who, when given the chance to rewrite his memories, made himself a nobel man who is charged with saving a princess. But the real "Booker" is always there, under the surface, carving a violent sociopathic path through Columbia.

I like the cut of your jib, mister. I not sure I agree with the majority of what you wrote - in fact, I vehemently disagree with some of it - but it is at least a credible attempt at explaining the game. Sometimes the answer to a question is simply to guess what the question writer was thinking when he asked it, and of the alternatives posed thus far, this one seems like it has the most probability of being the ideas behind Infinite. Still breaks down under scrutiny and some of it is offensively shallow, but there you go.

I've decided that there probably isn't going to be a satisfactory answer to Bioshock Infinite, so it's probably best if I just move on.

 

[Korey]

If they need to kill all, how does the one Booker that like 4-5 Liz's drown ressult in all of them vanishing? Not saying you're wrong.

Everyone who says that the baptism is a "constant" doesn't understand the game, because there's only one baptism.

The baptism only happens once and from there diverges into an infinite number of universes.

If you understand that, you understand why killing Booker before he baptizes results in the deletion of all the universes that (would have) followed his decision.

 

[Salamando]

6. Who cares about other extinction-level events? Why are you even bringing this up? That's outside the story. It has nothing to do with the game.

You say it doesn't. I say when you deal with multiple universes, everything has to do with the story. You give a person the ability to see everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, across all possibility/probability, but she can only change one thing, I'm gonna ask why she isn't looking across all possibility/probability for the worst possible thing, and stopping that. Comstock creating a fully powered Liz that's fully under his doctrine? Yeah, I could see that being the worst possible thing. I shouldn't have to fill in holes in the story for it to satisfy me.

My point, above all else, multiple universes with branches created by a choice or random event create a messy story very easily. More questions are asked then answered, and nothing that happens ever really matters, since there'll always be another universe where it didn't happen. With truly infinite universes, where anything and everything will happen and has happened, no matter what Liz does, she'll affect zero percent of them. She wasn't content stopping one Comstock from a field of infinite Comstocks, but was content stopping one evil guy in infinite universes rather than an infinite number of evil guys in every possible universe?

 

[LiK]

1999 Mode done without going to a Dollar Bill machine. That was pleasant.

 

[The Librarian]

You say it doesn't. I say when you deal with multiple universes, everything has to do with the story. You give a person the ability to see everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, across all possibility/probability, but she can only change one thing, I'm gonna ask why she isn't looking across all possibility/probability for the worst possible thing, and stopping that. Comstock creating a fully powered Liz that's fully under his doctrine? Yeah, I could see that being the worst possible thing. I shouldn't have to fill in holes in the story for it to satisfy me.

My point, above all else, multiple universes with branches created by a choice or random event create a messy story very easily. More questions are asked then answered, and nothing that happens ever really matters, since there'll always be another universe where it didn't happen. With truly infinite universes, where anything and everything will happen and has happened, no matter what Liz does, she'll affect zero percent of them. She wasn't content stopping one Comstock from a field of infinite Comstocks, but was content stopping one evil guy in infinite universes rather than an infinite number of evil guys in every possible universe?

I think you're entirely wrong to ask why Elizabeth didn't do anything about other dictators or what have you. She's not concerned with that (why risk so man unforeseen. consequences?).

Besides, I don't think she can even do what you're speculating about. Given what we know about Lutece and Elizabeth, their abilities seem to be very limited in very certain ways. Elizabeth was able to kill Comstock in any universe where the consequences bear out in a certain way because Booker was there with her.

 

[Rapstah]

Everyone who says that the baptism is a "constant" doesn't understand the game, because there's only one baptism.

The baptism only happens once and from there diverges into an infinite number of universes.

If you understand that, you understand why killing Booker before he baptizes results in the deletion of all the universes that (would have) followed his decision.

If the baptism isn't a constant, then that also means there can't be any variables before the baptism. The existence of variables is the same thing as the existence of multiple universes in this case. Lutece's gender, for example, seems to be a variable. If the baptism happens in all of them, then the baptism is a constant.

 

[Salamando]

I think you're entirely wrong to ask why Elizabeth didn't do anything about other dictators or what have you. She's not concerned with that (why risk so man unforeseen. consequences?).

Besides, I don't think she can even do what you're speculating about. Given what we know about Lutece and Elizabeth, their abilities seem to be very limited in very certain ways. Elizabeth was able to kill Comstock in any universe where the consequences bear out in a certain way because Booker was there with her.

If she can see "what's behind every door", can there be unforeseen consequences? Hell, she willingly created a paradox...that's gotta be one of the riskiest things you can do...

I'm hoping the DLC goes into their powers and limitations a bit...in particular the limitations. Make Liz only able to see universes a few deviations away from her source universe...make her able to see everything, but require a person to "quantum leap" into their past/future self in order to interact with anything, then a number of my problems go away.

Essentially what I want is something to narrow the scope.

 

[pargonta]

If she can see "what's behind every door", can there be unforeseen consequences?

we should prepare for these unforeseen consequences, for sure.

 

[Square Triangle]

Does anyone have a gameplan to collecting all of the missed voxophones and sightseeing views? Is there a better method to finding out which ones were missed rather than replaying it again?

 

[Amir0x]

One thing I was wondering about, and maybe I'm understanding it wrong, but given how many variations of this story the Luteces have experienced with Booker so far, shouldn't they have encountered far more than just the two Luteces at this point? Shouldn't there have been dozens - hundreds? - of Luteces all intersecting at various points of time and making things bonkers?

Time line wonkery is weird.

 

[Trigger]

One thing I was wondering about, and maybe I'm understanding it wrong, but given how many variations of this story the Luteces have experienced with Booker so far, shouldn't they have encountered far more than just the two Luteces at this point? Shouldn't there have been dozens - hundreds? - of Luteces all intersecting at various points of time and making things bonkers?

Time line wonkery is weird.

My understanding is that the pair are omniscient. They're consciousness has been spread across all timelines.

 

[MMBosstones86]

You say it doesn't. I say when you deal with multiple universes, everything has to do with the story. You give a person the ability to see everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, across all possibility/probability, but she can only change one thing, I'm gonna ask why she isn't looking across all possibility/probability for the worst possible thing, and stopping that. Comstock creating a fully powered Liz that's fully under his doctrine? Yeah, I could see that being the worst possible thing. I shouldn't have to fill in holes in the story for it to satisfy me.

My point, above all else, multiple universes with branches created by a choice or random event create a messy story very easily. More questions are asked then answered, and nothing that happens ever really matters, since there'll always be another universe where it didn't happen. With truly infinite universes, where anything and everything will happen and has happened, no matter what Liz does, she'll affect zero percent of them. She wasn't content stopping one Comstock from a field of infinite Comstocks, but was content stopping one evil guy in infinite universes rather than an infinite number of evil guys in every possible universe?

really? come on, man.

I mean. I'm pretty pissed she didn't solve world hunger with all those powers....

We're talking about stuff outside of things we're presented with?

 

[Amir0x]

My understanding is that the pair are omniscient. They're consciousness has been spread across all timelines.

Is this so? How did that happen? What evidence does the game provide to this fact? Just curious. I know with any timeline story in any medium there will be things that just make no sense, I'm just trying to see if this particular aspect can make more sense.

 

[RDreamer]

Is this so? How did that happen? What evidence does the game provide to this fact? Just curious. I know with any timeline story in any medium there will be things that just make no sense, I'm just trying to see if this particular aspect can make more sense.

The game says they're spread across the probability space. I'm pretty sure that's the term that was used in a voxophone somewhere. At work so I can't check.

 

[Amir0x]

The game says they're spread across the probability space. I'm pretty sure that's the term that was used in a voxophone somewhere. At work so I can't check.

That actually does ring a bell, now that you mention it. They just got spread across the probability space by both simultaneously doing that experiment at different universes and then crossing over?

I guess my question is, why weren't a thousand potential Luteces looking at that same particle at that same moment? At what point prior to this experiment did they somehow get 'spread across the probability space', and why did that spreading limit itself to only 2 people - a male and a female Letuce?

 

[Salamando]

really? come on, man.

I mean. I'm pretty pissed she didn't solve world hunger with all those powers....

We're talking about stuff outside of things we're presented with?

Sorry, they start mentioning infinite possibilities, millions upon millions of doors, and my imagination starts running rampant. Felt like they gave her a superpower and she didn't do much with it, compared to what she could do with it. She wanted to remove all Comstocks from infinite universes...the slippery argument being, why stop there? Why not first locate all instances of Booker becoming an evil jerk? Why not all instances of anyone becoming an evil jerk?

The Luteces, I can accept that they didn't do anything. They only appeared to be able to move through probability space, but lacked the omnipotence (even though they know Comstock = Booker and could probably trace back to the baptism).

 

[Neiteio]

That actually does ring a bell, now that you mention it. They just got spread across the probability space by both simultaneously doing that experiment at different universes and then crossing over?

I guess my question is, why weren't a thousand potential Luteces looking at that same particle at that same moment? At what point prior to this experiment did they somehow get 'spread across the probability space', and why did that spreading limit itself to only 2 people - a male and a female Letuce?

They weren't spread across the probability space until Fink's assassination attempt, which was after they had already united.

 

[Amir0x]

They weren't spread across the probability space until Fink's assassination attempt, which was after they had already united.

ok so why isn't there a thousand other Letuces before then?

 

[Korey]

If the baptism isn't a constant, then that also means there can't be any variables before the baptism. The existence of variables is the same thing as the existence of multiple universes in this case. Lutece's gender, for example, seems to be a variable. If the baptism happens in all of them, then the baptism is a constant.

The baptism only happens once in one universe. Then it forks from there by spawning infinite universes.

A constant is like the coin flip. It happens separately in all the universes in a tree.

That's why the baptism isn't a constant. It's just a single event that happens, which spawns a bunch of new universes.