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[Trigger]

As Wounded Knee was a historical event we know that women and children of the Latoka were massacred there, in addition to unarmed warriors too.

Every time the battle is alluded to in Infinite there is the implication that Booker did something that was a much more heinous crime than just killing...or at least that is what I took from it, especially in Hall of Heroes. When Booker rejects the baptism it is implied that some things can't be forgiven, leading me to surmise that Booker killed/ or was at least present when women/children were massacred. If not, then what about Wounded Knee would be worse than all of the Columbia innocents that Booker has murdered during the game itself?

Ah, I see.

Guys I'm replaying through the game and just got to the part where you land on the artificial beach. Why didn't the Songbird kill Booker when he was close to drowning? It's eyes began to crack and it just flew off. Any clue as to why?

I just assumed that the depth was getting to Songbird so it chose to let Booker escape.

 

[LiK]

Guys I'm replaying through the game and just got to the part where you land on the artificial beach. Why didn't the Songbird kill Booker when he was close to drowning? It's eyes began to crack and it just flew off. Any clue as to why?

The water pressure

 

[The Librarian]

And that still bothers me, in terms of the writer's choice of that event being the defining one. It's trite to make everything pivot on the choice of a baptism IMO.

Comstock the character (or the possibility of him) to me was made during the trauma of what Booker experienced at Wounded Knee, and I just think there was more to examine there as the root than whether Booker decides to take a baptism or not.

As I said earlier, I prefer the idea that in the Comstock reality Booker murdered a child at Wounded Knee (this is heavily implied) but the game Booker somehow made a choice not to kill a child, but was still scarred so much by the experience.

This type of root choice makes much more sense to me, and everything else would have flowed on and still worked, but we would have had so many more things resonating; Comstock goes sterile - Karma
Booker has Anna, but the choice is then echoed by choosing to sell her then recanting.
Echoes harvesting Little Sisters in Bioshock.

I just hate the fact that the choice 'root' is down to a baptism. Like really? Just doesn't wash with me (no pun intended).

But it is what it is I guess...

But that child thing doesn't work because Booker needed to artificially forgive himself in order to give in to his worst impulses. The child thing wouldn't do that.

 

[Sqorgar]

But the Baptism is the creation of "Comstock".

A tyrant is just an asshole unless he has the power to spread his tyranny. The thing that births Comstock is the discovery of the portals - of seeing prophecies, becoming sterile and stealing a child, or finding technology from alternate universes. Some random soldier isn't going to have the means to create monuments to himself without the opportunity of power. You don't need to kill Comstock. You need to make him impotent (I mean powerless. He's already technically impotent).

If there exists just one universe where he comes to existence, then there is a possibility that he creates Columbia, then there is a possibility of stealing Anna, etc.

But that means that there is the possibility that he does not. Which means Elizabeth just erased an infinite number of innocent men from existence.

The purpose of the end-game is to ensure the events Comstock (Columbia, Anna/Liz, tears, etc.) NEVER come to fruition. The ONLY possible way to ensure that across every universe, is to ensure Comstock never comes to be.

No, the only possible way to prevent it is to ensure that Comstock never encounters the portals. Nothing about Columbia or his rise to power would've been possible without them.

There is literally no other origin point for Comstock other than the Baptism (that we are concerned with).

Literally? The baptism didn't create Comstock. The horrors he committed at Wounded Knee created Comstock (and even then, that was a result of being mocked for having mixed heritage as a child). The baptism just gave him permission to give up the guilt.

Even then, Booker did feel guilty in the first place. I don't think that a baptism is going to completely remove that guilt to the point where he suddenly becomes determined to repeat that hatred and guilt on a grander scale. Being absolved of all your sins does not give you permission to make more.

I get that Levine wanted to make a statement about how religion gives false security to sinners, even going so far as to give their sins a feeling of righteousness and justness. But religion was not the originator of Comstock, nor was choosing it the event that set into motion the creation of Columbia and all that mess. It comes back to the technology that gave him power, and that technology is STILL THERE, waiting to be abused by someone else.

 

[abrack08]

No, the only possible way to prevent it is to ensure that Comstock never encounters the portals. Nothing about Columbia or his rise to power would've been possible without them.


Literally? The baptism didn't create Comstock. The horrors he committed at Wounded Knee created Comstock (and even then, that was a result of being mocked for having mixed heritage as a child). The baptism just gave him permission to give up the guilt.

Even then, Booker did feel guilty in the first place. I don't think that a baptism is going to completely remove that guilt to the point where he suddenly becomes determined to repeat that hatred and guilt on a grander scale. Being absolved of all your sins does not give you permission to make more.

I get that Levine wanted to make a statement about how religion gives false security to sinners, even going so far as to give their sins a feeling of righteousness and justness. But religion was not the originator of Comstock, nor was choosing it the event that set into motion the creation of Columbia and all that mess. It comes back to the technology that gave him power, and that technology is STILL THERE, waiting to be abused by someone else.

We were told by a basically omnipotent, omniscient character that the Bookers that accept the baptism become Comstock and the ones who don't, don't. I get that you don't LIKE that, but that doesn't make it incorrect. That doesn't even necessarily mean that the baptism is what CREATED him, but there's no Comstock that wasn't baptized. I don't see the point in arguing that.

 

[Sqorgar]

We were told by a basically omnipotent, omniscient character that the Bookers that accept the baptism become Comstock and the ones who don't, don't. I get that you don't LIKE that, but that doesn't make it incorrect. That doesn't even necessarily mean that the baptism is what CREATED him, but there's no Comstock that wasn't baptized. I don't see the point in arguing that.

So, literally a deus ex machina. God comes down from on high, tells us what the problem is, then resolves it for us. That's lazy fucking writing.

And I'm not questioning Elizabeth. I'm questioning the writers who thought this was an intellectually satisfying conclusion. I mean, they couldn't spend ten minutes to actually think about the proposition they are presenting to see that it just doesn't make any sense? Of course accepting baptism causes this one guy to suddenly become a tyrannical overlord floating in a fantastical city in the clouds, using portals to another dimension to - at most - steal babies. There's no other way it could play out!

Be right back. I'm going to go get baptized. I want a floating city too.

 

[Rapstah]

The idea of the different dimensions is supposed to be that they loosely follow the same mold, like there always being a Booker and an Anna and apparently often a Lutece and a lighthouse. Booker turning into Comstock by the baptism is just another of the patterns the universes like to follow. Booker turning into Comstock via baptism is just another constant, it doesn't really have anything to do with the baptism, the important part is apparently that it could happen.

 

[RDreamer]

Literally? The baptism didn't create Comstock. The horrors he committed at Wounded Knee created Comstock (and even then, that was a result of being mocked for having mixed heritage as a child). The baptism just gave him permission to give up the guilt.

Even then, Booker did feel guilty in the first place. I don't think that a baptism is going to completely remove that guilt to the point where he suddenly becomes determined to repeat that hatred and guilt on a grander scale. Being absolved of all your sins does not give you permission to make more.

I get that Levine wanted to make a statement about how religion gives false security to sinners, even going so far as to give their sins a feeling of righteousness and justness. But religion was not the originator of Comstock, nor was choosing it the event that set into motion the creation of Columbia and all that mess. It comes back to the technology that gave him power, and that technology is STILL THERE, waiting to be abused by someone else.

That's pretty much the big theme of the game. Larger than life religious leaders/cult leaders and so-called prophets often use their religion to not feel guilty about all that they've done. Those things become foundations for their further ideology, and they can continue to commit those same "sins" again and again.

I think you're thinking of Comstock and Booker on a grander scale than what it's meant to be, too. This is the tale of one man who did some terrible things, and doesn't know how he will ever forgive himself or be forgiven for them. Then the possibility of a quick forgiveness comes. The quick way out presents itself to him. Either he accepts or rejects. The game is making the point that an easy way out like that doesn't work. You can't be forgiven for doing bad things if you never actually repent. You can't be forgiven if you just create a worldview around it which those things are foundations. The technology and all that are sidestories to the real tale of Booker.

 

[Jigolo]

The water pressure

That's what I thought too but could something as silly as water pressure stop the Songbird? I mean, the Songbird is a freaking beast. But if that actually was the case. If the water pressure were that high wouldn't DeWitt also be killed because of it?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

MUST CONSUME EVERYTHING

Also, I don't know anything about HeroClix, but I kiiiiiinda want to but this whole set

 

[njean777]

That's what I thought too but could something as silly as water pressure stop the Songbird? I mean, the Songbird is a freaking beast. But if that actually was the case. If the water pressure were that high wouldn't DeWitt also be killed because of it?

He was inside rapture, I would think they have something in Rapture to control the pressure and such, songbird was in the actual ocean.

 

[pringles]

That's what I thought too but could something as silly as water pressure stop the Songbird? I mean, the Songbird is a freaking beast. But if that actually was the case. If the water pressure were that high wouldn't DeWitt also be killed because of it?

Booker and Elizabeth are inside a structure that can withstand the pressure?

Songbird wasn't build for deep-sea exploration.

 

[abrack08]

So, literally a deus ex machina. God comes down from on high, tells us what the problem is, then resolves it for us. That's lazy fucking writing.

I dunno dude. Maybe you can argue it's a LITERAL deus ex machina, as in a super powerful character solving a problem, but I don't think it fits the common usage of the term. There's tons of forshadowing and all that jazz, and I was always taught that deus ex machina was basically totally random. Yes, a character becomes basically all-knowing and then does something important, but it's not the same.

As for it not being intellectually satisfying, all I can say is there are a lot of people who I think disagree with you. I thought it was intellectually satisfying, personally.

The rest of your post is just ridiculous. No one is arguing "normal decent guy gets baptism, then becomes crazy racist with city in the sky".

That's what I thought too but could something as silly as water pressure stop the Songbird? I mean, the Songbird is a freaking beast. But if that actually was the case. If the water pressure were that high wouldn't DeWitt also be killed because of it?

The water pressure is what kills the Songbird in the end, remember? And the Songbird was built in a floating city in the sky, where there's even less (air) pressure than normal. That was supposed to be the big hint that he's pretty weak to it. Moreso, apparently, than humans. (There's also the theory that Booker does drown/die there because the next scene is him in his office/apartment. Maybe another Booker was brought in that survives the fall).

Booker and Elizabeth are inside a structure that can withstand the pressure?

Songbird wasn't build for deep-sea exploration.

He was inside rapture, I would think they have something in Rapture to control the pressure and such, songbird was in the actual ocean.

He's talking about before Battleship Bay, not in Rapture.

 

[Trigger]

There's nothing "lazy" about the writing and thought that went into the game. Comically oversimplifying the story doesn't enhance an argument either.

 

[LTWheels]

Outside Xbox has a nice little video regarding all the different scientific theories used within the game's story. Jane at Outside Xbox has a physics degree and gives a nice overview.

http://youtu.be/EfdfBF1Covw

 

[Sqorgar]

That's pretty much the big theme of the game. Larger than life religious leaders/cult leaders and so-called prophets often use their religion to not feel guilty about all that they've done. Those things become foundations for their further ideology, and they can continue to commit those same "sins" again and again.

While they use religion to excuse their sins, they don't tend to actually start off as sinners. Instead, the power that comes from becoming leaders ultimately corrupts them into committing new sins. And it's not just religious leaders that this happens to. So this is less a commentary on religion and more a commentary on how absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I am not a fan of religion. I will use ANY excuse I can to complain about it or to poke holes in it. But the feeling of security that it gives people is not its greatest sin by a long shot. Any criticism of religion must start with the idea of faith and following, not the concept of false forgiveness. Because often times, the thing that stands between sinners and their salvation is the ability to forgive themselves and move past their sins rather than be consumed by them.

I think you're thinking of Comstock and Booker on a grander scale than what it's meant to be, too. This is the tale of one man who did some terrible things, and doesn't know how he will ever forgive himself or be forgiven for them. Then the possibility of a quick forgiveness comes. The quick way out presents itself to him. Either he accepts or rejects. The game is making the point that an easy way out like that doesn't work. You can't be forgiven for doing bad things if you never actually repent. You can't be forgiven if you just create a worldview around it which those things are foundations. The technology and all that are sidestories to the real tale of Booker.

The real tale of Booker happens at Wounded Knee and we never see it.

Also, the game makes a point that the easy way out doesn't work - and then proceeds to dwell on the fact that the alternative is to lock yourself in a room, disfiguring yourself for twenty years because you sold your only child to cover your gambling debts. There's a lesson in here somewhere.

I can buy that the drowning at the baptism is meant to provide the salvation that neither Booker nor Comstock ever had in life. That his ultimate sacrifice saved the lives of millions of people in a million million universes. It heals the wound that has festered across time and space.

(side note: the Booker that the player plays is haunted more by giving up Anna than anything he did at Wounded Knee, so his salvation would not be defeating Comstock across time and space, but by sacrificing himself for Anna - which he doesn't do because it was Anna's idea and she enacted the plan, which Booker did not realize until after he was sucking down water for air).

Anyway, the salvation gained by "killing Comstock" still doesn't work because after the credits, you see that Booker is alive and ambiguously, so is Anna (starting to think Ken Levine shouldn't have watched Inception). Did this Booker have his salvation if he can not remember the sacrifice he gave? Is he still in debt? Is he still haunted by the choices he made at Wounded Knee (and after)? It's ambiguous, but ultimately the logical answer is that this Booker never found his salvation because this Booker never made the ultimate sacrifice.

Booker and Elizabeth are inside a structure that can withstand the pressure?

Songbird wasn't build for deep-sea exploration.

I think he's talking about the moment when Booker and Songbird fall into the ocean before Battleship Bay. And yeah, for the pressure to be strong enough to crack thick, curved glass, it would likely be quite lethal to a person (assuming the thousand foot fall didn't kill him first).

 

[MMBosstones86]

A tyrant is just an asshole unless he has the power to spread his tyranny. The thing that births Comstock is the discovery of the portals - of seeing prophecies, becoming sterile and stealing a child, or finding technology from alternate universes. Some random soldier isn't going to have the means to create monuments to himself without the opportunity of power. You don't need to kill Comstock. You need to make him impotent (I mean powerless. He's already technically impotent).


But that means that there is the possibility that he does not. Which means Elizabeth just erased an infinite number of innocent men from existence.


No, the only possible way to prevent it is to ensure that Comstock never encounters the portals. Nothing about Columbia or his rise to power would've been possible without them.


Literally? The baptism didn't create Comstock. The horrors he committed at Wounded Knee created Comstock (and even then, that was a result of being mocked for having mixed heritage as a child). The baptism just gave him permission to give up the guilt.

Even then, Booker did feel guilty in the first place. I don't think that a baptism is going to completely remove that guilt to the point where he suddenly becomes determined to repeat that hatred and guilt on a grander scale. Being absolved of all your sins does not give you permission to make more.

I get that Levine wanted to make a statement about how religion gives false security to sinners, even going so far as to give their sins a feeling of righteousness and justness. But religion was not the originator of Comstock, nor was choosing it the event that set into motion the creation of Columbia and all that mess. It comes back to the technology that gave him power, and that technology is STILL THERE, waiting to be abused by someone else.

arguing the ending?

So, literally a deus ex machina. God comes down from on high, tells us what the problem is, then resolves it for us. That's lazy fucking writing.

And I'm not questioning Elizabeth. I'm questioning the writers who thought this was an intellectually satisfying conclusion. I mean, they couldn't spend ten minutes to actually think about the proposition they are presenting to see that it just doesn't make any sense? Of course accepting baptism causes this one guy to suddenly become a tyrannical overlord floating in a fantastical city in the clouds, using portals to another dimension to - at most - steal babies. There's no other way it could play out!

Be right back. I'm going to go get baptized. I want a floating city too.

arguing the writing?

what?

 

[Hot Coldman]

Also, I don't know anything about HeroClix, but I kiiiiiinda want to but this whole set

What the hell, these look great. Also, HeroClix has like a buttload of different properties so you can pit Booker against Gandalf or Spider-Man.

Needs Elizabeth in her original get-up, though. Not as fond of her corset look. Old Elizabeth too!

 

[Jigolo]

Ah ok thanks for the replies, everything is much clearer now.

 

[njean777]

While they use religion to excuse their sins, they don't tend to actually start off as sinners. Instead, the power that comes from becoming leaders ultimately corrupts them into committing new sins. And it's not just religious leaders that this happens to. So this is less a commentary on religion and more a commentary on how absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I am not a fan of religion. I will use ANY excuse I can to complain about it or to poke holes in it. But the feeling of security that it gives people is not its greatest sin by a long shot. Any criticism of religion must start with the idea of faith and following, not the concept of false forgiveness. Because often times, the thing that stands between sinners and their salvation is the ability to forgive themselves and move past their sins rather than be consumed by them.


The real tale of Booker happens at Wounded Knee and we never see it.

Also, the game makes a point that the easy way out doesn't work - and then proceeds to dwell on the fact that the alternative is to lock yourself in a room, disfiguring yourself for twenty years because you sold your only child to cover your gambling debts. There's a lesson in here somewhere.

I can buy that the drowning at the baptism is meant to provide the salvation that neither Booker nor Comstock ever had in life. That his ultimate sacrifice saved the lives of millions of people in a million million universes. It heals the wound that has festered across time and space.

(side note: the Booker that the player plays is haunted more by giving up Anna than anything he did at Wounded Knee, so his salvation would not be defeating Comstock across time and space, but by sacrificing himself for Anna - which he doesn't do because it was Anna's idea and she enacted the plan, which Booker did not realize until after he was sucking down water for air).

Anyway, the salvation gained by "killing Comstock" still doesn't work because after the credits, you see that Booker is alive and ambiguously, so is Anna (starting to think Ken Levine shouldn't have watched Inception). Did this Booker have his salvation if he can not remember the sacrifice he gave? Is he still in debt? Is he still haunted by the choices he made at Wounded Knee (and after)? It's ambiguous, but ultimately the logical answer is that this Booker never found his salvation because this Booker never made the ultimate sacrifice.


I think he's talking about the moment when Booker and Songbird fall into the ocean before Battleship Bay. And yeah, for the pressure to be strong enough to crack thick, curved glass, it would likely be quite lethal to a person (assuming the thousand foot fall didn't kill him first).

To your killing Comstock theory, I think you are forgetting that the player also has a lead role in this game. The salvation of killing Comstock goes to the player, not to Booker. It is presumed that the player wants to kill Comstock for what he has done to Booker. Even though yes it is booker himself, doing these thing to himself. It is a game after all, so some retribution needs to go to the player for achieving certain goals. Also at this point in the game you should realize that Booker only wants to kill Comstock to stop all of this madness. He becomes increasingly protective of Liz throughout the game, so when Comstock was hurting her he went into a rage that could not be controlled.

 

[LiK]

What the hell, these look great. Also, HeroClix has like a buttload of different properties so you can pit Booker against Gandalf or Spider-Man.

Needs Elizabeth in her original get-up, though. Not as fond of her corset look. Old Elizabeth too!

I'm guessing the figures you want will be chase versions.

 

[Sqorgar]

arguing the ending? arguing the writing?

The ending provides an emotional catharsis, but I don't think it is earned. It gives you the feeling of satisfaction without the logical consistency that gives you intellectual satisfaction. That's my complaint with the ending. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny. My complaint with the writing is all the hand waving and "because I said so" needed to obscure the ending's flaws such that even the feeling of satisfaction doesn't feel hollow. When you are fucking around with the time space continuum in such a loosey goosey manner, you've got to be more careful than Infinite was when invoking the concept of fate.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I'm guessing the figures you want will be chase versions.

*googles*

Man, they got this business down tight. Nice. They know what kind of fans they're dealing with, haha.

 

[Paganmoon]

Ah, I see.



I just assumed that the depth was getting to Songbird so it chose to let Booker escape.

That's what I thought too but could something as silly as water pressure stop the Songbird? I mean, the Songbird is a freaking beast. But if that actually was the case. If the water pressure were that high wouldn't DeWitt also be killed because of it?

Isn't it implied that Booker does die from the fall/drowning in Battleship Bay? Considering we get flashback/door opening from his office, same as every time you actually do die in the game (playerdeath that is).

/P

 

[Sqorgar]

To your killing Comstock theory, I think you are forgetting that the player also has a lead role in this game. The salvation of killing Comstock goes to the player, not to Booker. It is presumed that the player wants to kill Comstock for what he has done to Booker. Even though yes it is booker himself, doing these thing to himself. It is a game after all, so some retribution needs to go to the player for achieving certain goals.

How can the salvation go to the player when the player has done nothing to be absolved of? No, if you include the player, then it becomes a simple revenge fantasy where the bad guy gets what's coming to him - the kind of violent disconnect that belongs in the same category as shooting ten thousand police officers in the face as a way to tell a story about racism.

 

[Trigger]

Isn't it implied that Booker does die from the fall/drowning in Battleship Bay? Considering we get flashback/door opening from his office, same as every time you actually do die in the game (playerdeath that is).

/P

I just assumed it was a Hollywood style drowning where the person passes out and then washes ashore. Booker dying just provides more problems than it solves.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

The real tale of Booker happens at Wounded Knee and we never see it.

Possibly only because you say so.

 

[yankeehater]

Do we know if Comstock gets nosebleeds when ever Booker enters his universe?

 

[Salamando]

I can buy that the drowning at the baptism is meant to provide the salvation that neither Booker nor Comstock ever had in life. That his ultimate sacrifice saved the lives of millions of people in a million million universes. It heals the wound that has festered across time and space.

Since the lives he saved were from branches that never happened, those "people" don't exist. Technically, versions of them will live their lives out in alternate universes, but we presumably didn't do anything to help them. At best he removed universes that were mostly negative.

 

[Trigger]

Do we know if Comstock gets nosebleeds when ever Booker enters his universe?

No. No voxophones to suggest it and not enough time near him to see.

 

[njean777]

How can the salvation go to the player when the player has done nothing to be absolved of? No, if you include the player, then it becomes a simple revenge fantasy where the bad guy gets what's coming to him - the kind of violent disconnect that belongs in the same category as shooting ten thousand police officers in the face as a way to tell a story about racism.

Isn't it really just a revenge tale anyways as the Luteces brought Booker into the equation in order to stop Comstock in the first place? That is the whole point of the game. By killing him he stopped him, and by killing Booker at the end they made sure that the possibility of it all happening again was zero.

The player also has to be thought of, you cannot simply ignore that because it doesnt fit in with your argument. The player is the most important part of any game.

 

[Paganmoon]

I just assumed it was a Hollywood style drowning where the person passes out and then washes ashore. Booker dying just provides more problems than it solves.

Well, you aren't the first Booker to go through these events, considering for instance the cointoss with 122 heads (a constant), pointing that there were 122 Bookers that got at the least to the carnival.
From the OP:

As we can see, prior to flipping the head, there are 122 chalk marks already on the board. This reveals to us that we are, at least, the 123rd Booker to reach the coin flip and thus are at least the Luteces' 123rd attempt to reset the timeline. Jacksepticeye has noted that the lighthouse combination at the beginning is 1-2-2. Whether this is just coincidence, a reference, or more, is never specifically stated.

And every time you die, there's another Booker that goes through all events up to the point of the "death" and you take over from there again. And the office door opening signifies that from what I understood. And it is one of the theories in the OP as well.
But I suppose only Ken really knows

 

[Estocolmo]

But why on the 123 trip?! What was so special about this trip...the events unfolded 100% the same, no matter what all 122 trips, what was so dramatically different about this trip, that caused the revelation of old Liz to give Booker the song, etc.

Because the other 122 times he always ended up with the same result. The only way to end Comstocks reign was by killing himself (Booker).

 

[Sqorgar]

Since the lives he saved were from branches that never happened, those "people" don't exist. Technically, versions of them will live their lives out in alternate universes, but we presumably didn't do anything to help them. At best he removed universes that were mostly negative.

Obviously, but it just doesn't feel as good to say that some dude gave the ultimate sacrifice so that a bunch of mostly negative futures were avoided. He saved lives by ensuring that they never existed... it's a bit like having an abortion so your child won't get shingles one day.

 

[yankeehater]

No. No voxophones to suggest it and not enough time near him to see.

Yeah that was something I wondered about at the end, it would have been neat to see Booker/Comstock share memories and such, like have Booker have moments where he wants to help Comstock. I guess it would have been to confusing to put stuff like that in the game though.

 

[njean777]

Obviously, but it just doesn't feel as good to say that some dude gave the ultimate sacrifice so that a bunch of mostly negative futures were avoided. He saved lives by ensuring that they never existed... it's a bit like having an abortion so your child won't get shingles one day.

But that was the whole point, you seem to be asking for something that was never intended.

 

[The Librarian]

Be right back. I'm going to go get baptized. I want a floating city too.

That's a really stupid point. You're complaining about omnipotent beings figuring out the answer in a story about a giant floating city in the early twentieth century?

Being baptized does create Comstock. Yes, the seeds were planted at Wounded Knee, but what allowed Comstock to exist was Booker feeling free of his guilt from being baptized. He didn't become it instantly, but he DOES eventually become Comstock, and being baptized is the reason.

But that was the whole point, you seem to be asking for something that was never intended.

It's a common theme for people who don't like the story. They criticize it for something it's not.

 

[MMBosstones86]

Obviously, but it just doesn't feel as good to say that some dude gave the ultimate sacrifice so that a bunch of mostly negative futures were avoided. He saved lives by ensuring that they never existed... it's a bit like having an abortion so your child won't get shingles one day.

Probably not the best analogy. It's more like not doing the nasty because you don't want your child to have shingles.

Actually, he's 'saving lives' by ensuring the specific set of universes they die in (because of the events of the game) don't happen. They still exist in other timelines, right?

Songbird was built to withstand the floating city's low pressure. The extreme high pressure found at the bottom of the ocean will naturally cause him problems (mostly in the form of implosion).



That image was some foreshadowing as to Songbird's ultimate fate.[/QUOTE]

I LOVE all these charts and graphs in the game that flesh out details and foreshadow quite a bit. Nice touch

 

[Zeliard]

That's what I thought too but could something as silly as water pressure stop the Songbird? I mean, the Songbird is a freaking beast. But if that actually was the case. If the water pressure were that high wouldn't DeWitt also be killed because of it?

Songbird was built to withstand the floating city's low pressure. The extreme high pressure found at the bottom of the ocean will naturally cause him problems (mostly in the form of implosion).

That image was some foreshadowing as to Songbird's ultimate fate.

 

[The Librarian]

That's pretty much the big theme of the game. Larger than life religious leaders/cult leaders and so-called prophets often use their religion to not feel guilty about all that they've done. Those things become foundations for their further ideology, and they can continue to commit those same "sins" again and again.

Comstock even says almost this exact thing to Booker early on in the game: "The Lord forgives everything. But I'm just a prophet, so I don't have to."

 

[Salamando]

Probably not the best analogy. It's more like not doing the nasty because you don't want your child to have shingles.

Actually, he's 'saving lives' by ensuring the specific set of universes they die in (because of the events of the game) don't happen. They still exist in other timelines, right?

There were likely babies born in a Comstock timeline that won't exist ever now.

Philosophically, this poses an interesting question. Comstock may have killed people, but Liz removed people from existence entirely. Doesn't her action seem worse?

 

[RDreamer]

There were likely babies born in a Comstock timeline that won't exist ever now.

Philosophically, this poses an interesting question. Comstock may have killed people, but Liz removed people from existence entirely. Doesn't her action seem worse?

It isn't just that Comstock killed people. It was that he enslaved and broke Elizabeth and turned her into him, except she had the powers to both destroy cities like New York and to do almost anything across any timeline. The more pertinent problem isn't as much that Comstock exists. I mean, it is, but it's also that the existence of Comstock gives way to the existence of Elizabeth.

In a way Infinite is also making a statement about passing on your sins to your children. You can either turn them into you, or also just wallow in your own past and forget about them, and in that case they turn out bad, too.

 

[LiK]

Songbird was built to withstand the floating city's low pressure. The extreme high pressure found at the bottom of the ocean will naturally cause him problems (mostly in the form of implosion).

That image was some foreshadowing as to Songbird's ultimate fate.

Thanks for that. Proof in case people were wondering.

 

[Salamando]

It isn't just that Comstock killed people. It was that he enslaved and broke Elizabeth and turned her into him, except she had the powers to both destroy cities like New York and to do almost anything across any timeline. The more pertinent problem isn't as much that Comstock exists. I mean, it is, but it's also that the existence of Comstock gives way to the existence of Elizabeth.

In a way Infinite is also making a statement about passing on your sins to your children. You can either turn them into you, or also just wallow in your own past and forget about them, and in that case they turn out bad, too.

Could a fully indoctinated Liz, free from her siphon, stop our Liz from stopping Comstock from existing? Should she possess the same ability to see behind all doors, she'd be able to see any branches from which Booker stood a chance of succeeding, and stop them...

Infinite would've benefited from a timeline where Booker never attempted to rescue Liz...to see what kind of monster she could become without any other-universe interference. Going on an inter-dimensional purging of sodom would make for a much more interesting villain.

I want them. Loving the alternate Handyman design. Was it supposed to be in the game but was cut at the last minute?

The red Handyman? That's the Vox Handyman, and you fight him at Fink's Factory, where Daisy's holding Fink's son hostage. No firemen or Crows though?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Also, I don't know anything about HeroClix, but I kiiiiiinda want to but this whole set

I want them. Loving the alternate Handyman design. Was it supposed to be in the game but was cut at the last minute?

Also, no Lincoln Patriot bot? Disappointed. Also no lady liberty masked character. Doubly disappointed. Scratch that, I just noticed it.

 

[Sqorgar]

But that was the whole point, you seem to be asking for something that was never intended.

Salvation from the cruel massacre of innocent people cannot come in the form of the cruel massacre of innocent people - yeah, maybe Columbia destroys New York, but what about China. Elizabeth not only removed from existence people who weren't part of her little insular problems, she also removed from existence the lessons that would ultimately be learned from such a tragedy almost certainly ensuring that it will be repeated. It's like if we hadn't dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima - many, many lives would've been saved, but without learning the horrific reality of such warfare, what would've happened during the Cold War? The concept of mutually assured destruction only works if both sides are completely aware of the consequences of their actions (ask North Korea what they think nuclear warfare will do for them).

It's possible that Elizabeth destroyed a BETTER future.

 

[njean777]

Salvation from the cruel massacre of innocent people cannot come in the form of the cruel massacre of innocent people - yeah, maybe Columbia destroys New York, but what about China. Elizabeth not only removed from existence people who weren't part of her little insular problems, she also removed from existence the lessons that would ultimately be learned from such a tragedy almost certainly ensuring that it will be repeated. It's like if we hadn't dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima - many, many lives would've been saved, but without learning the horrific reality of such warfare, what would've happened during the Cold War? The concept of mutually assured destruction only works if both sides are completely aware of the consequences of their actions (ask North Korea what they think nuclear warfare will do for them).

It's possible that Elizabeth destroyed a BETTER future.

the creators never meant for that to be answered. Now you are once again asking for something that wasn't intended to be answered. There is nothing wrong with that, but to discredit what is for what could have been possible is weird to me.

 

[The Librarian]

Salvation from the cruel massacre of innocent people cannot come in the form of the cruel massacre of innocent people - yeah, maybe Columbia destroys New York, but what about China. Elizabeth not only removed from existence people who weren't part of her little insular problems, she also removed from existence the lessons that would ultimately be learned from such a tragedy almost certainly ensuring that it will be repeated. It's like if we hadn't dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima - many, many lives would've been saved, but without learning the horrific reality of such warfare, what would've happened during the Cold War? The concept of mutually assured destruction only works if both sides are completely aware of the consequences of their actions (ask North Korea what they think nuclear warfare will do for them).

It's possible that Elizabeth destroyed a BETTER future.

Yes! Damn Elizabeth for making the world not experiencing the horrific problems of a menacing, giant floating city!

 

[LiK]

the creators never meant for that to be answered. Now you are once again asking for something that wasn't intended to be answered. There is nothing wrong with that, but to discredit what is for what could have been possible is weird to me.

Agreed, we're going into a territory outside the scope of the game.

 

[Trigger]

Salvation from the cruel massacre of innocent people cannot come in the form of the cruel massacre of innocent people - yeah, maybe Columbia destroys New York, but what about China. Elizabeth not only removed from existence people who weren't part of her little insular problems, she also removed from existence the lessons that would ultimately be learned from such a tragedy almost certainly ensuring that it will be repeated. It's like if we hadn't dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima - many, many lives would've been saved, but without learning the horrific reality of such warfare, what would've happened during the Cold War? The concept of mutually assured destruction only works if both sides are completely aware of the consequences of their actions (ask North Korea what they think nuclear warfare will do for them).

It's possible that Elizabeth destroyed a BETTER future.

All of this is outside of the scope of the plot.

EDIT- Beaten several times, lol.