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[Tonguer]

Finished this tonight. Wow.

I was eager to get though this since there has been so much general commentary about the story and the surprises. I was really worried that it would be spoiled before I could get through it. Then I started hearing about 1999 mode and thought that was a big spoiler. Then 3/4 through the game I thought I had some understanding and the 'surprises' didn't match up to all the hype.

Then I finished it out. Holy shit. Double holy shit.

I can't wait to tell a friend tomorrow to drop what he is playing to get cranking on this.

 

[Salamando]

Also, we've gone over at length how every part of the game really -does- have a point, thematic or otherwise. And about that "why not fly off with a parachute" complaint -- where would they get one, and how would they expect to safely land somewhere, let alone New York City or Paris?

He could've just taken the schedule from the lighthouse. If it was actually accurate...which is unlikely, given Savannah had two returning times and one departing time. Map always kept Columbia over the US mainland, so hitting somewhere safe isn't the issue as much as landing would be. Seems like parachutes just weren't invented in this universe. Otherwise the citizens would've been using them to escape as opposed to overstuff barges which themselves operated on autopilot (explaining why Booker couldn't just highjack one).

Thing that wrinkles my brain - if the vision of New York being drowned in flame was from a tear and wasn't some entity acting on purpose...would Comstock still have pursued that goal if he had never seen it? The tears are windows into probability, which infers that event would be common enough if he hadn't seen it, but unless he does see it, he has no reason to steal babies as quickly as he does, which decreases the probability it occurs, which means it wouldn't be a common outcome, which means he couldn't see it, but he did. And now my brain's broke.

 

[Deitus]

Thing that wrinkles my brain - if the vision of New York being drowned in flame was from a tear and wasn't some entity acting on purpose...would Comstock still have pursued that goal if he had never seen it? The tears are windows into probability, which infers that event would be common enough if he hadn't seen it, but unless he does see it, he has no reason to steal babies as quickly as he does, which decreases the probability it occurs, which means it wouldn't be a common outcome, which means he couldn't see it, but he did. And now my brain's broke.

The way I see it, he would have always kidnapped Elizabeth. I'm sure on some level he always wanted a kid, and when he found himself sterile, he wasn't going to just give up on that. Especially when he found out he was dying, and needed to start searching for a successor; and who better than his own blood. Sure, he could have adopted, but when he peeked across universes to see the no-good, self-loathing, gambler scum, Booker neglecting his child, HIS CHILD. Well that would just not stand. Elizabeth was basically Comstock's daughter, and he was sure he was a better man than Booker ever was, so to him he was doing the girl a favor.

It was probably only later that he discovered what kind of successor Elizabeth would become. Maybe there was a possibility she might have escaped, or refused to succeed Comstock. Maybe she could have killed him, or herself in some universes. But in one universe, he managed to break her, using a combination of torture, suppressing her powers, and eventually choking out all hope (as we saw firsthand). This might not have been an obvious choice, but when a ruthless dictator is faced with an all powerful rebellious daughter, it's not unreasonable to think that in one of a million universes he tried the specific horrifying method that ended up working. At that point, every Columbia universe course corrected toward this path, since every Comstock could see this possible future where Elizabeth became the prophet.

As for New York in flames, that seems like a bit of a chicken or an egg situation. It was probably always in the plan to attack the US. They forced Columbia to stand down after the Boxer rebellion; an act that infuriated Comstock so much that he seceded from the union. Beyond that, Comstock saw the US government as weak, and as enabling the very worst sort of people. But they were still a world power, while Comstock controlled a floating city, and the most advanced technology the world has ever seen. A conflict was inevitable, and frankly the fact that it took as long as it did is surprising. No doubt part of the objective in training his successor would have always involved attacking his enemies, but when he saw how gloriously her assault on New York would have gone, he probably tweaked his plans a bit to work towards that specific chain of events.

 

[King Beyond the wall]

I am inclined to agree. Something about it just doesn't resonate as well as the middle of Bioshock did, mostly owing to the fact that the entire world falls apart around you for what seems like no reason at all. At first, it's the self-fulfilling prophecy of "he's the false prophet, lets all kill him" which brings the entire city to war, but later on, you go through a tear into a universe where the Vox were armed to the teeth and destroying the city. The problem is that feels purely like a coincidence, a byproduct of your (ultimately pointless) efforts to acquire an airship by bringing the gunsmith back alive.

Like Yahtzee points out in the ZP review, I couldn't help but keep saying to myself "why don't they just jump out of the city with a parachute?" The first and last couple hours are lathered with such transcendent tone, and tackling concepts that are so far out there, that having to ask these kinds of practical questions throughout the majority of the game feels wrong. I want to be focusing on the crazy plot, but instead I spend half the game in slums like it's Bioshock 2.5, this time with Jeremiah Fink as the evil businessman. It triesto shoehorn in Bioshock's working class uprising through the Vox Populi, but into a game that was about something much, MUCH bigger than a unionized rebellion against the man.

The ultimate loss is a proper explanation for... everything? Who are the Lutece's? Where did they come from? Why do they possess such command interdimensional travel? Did they create Elizabeth? How did they create Elizabeth? Why? Was their intention always to give her to Comstock? Why? So she could one day blow up the world? But again, WHY? Did Comstock use her to see the future? How could a simple religious man possibly comprehend what he was seeing? How and why did he create this gargantuan floating city? Was it so that Elizabeth could one day use it to destroy the world? How did he know that future would be the one to come to pass if an infinite number of futures exist? How did both Booker and Comstock end up in the same universe? Why did the Lutece's need Elizabeth if they were capable of creating the tears themselves with machines? Putting such a power into the hands of a human seems dangerous, so why would they risk it?

I could go on with these questions all day, but ultimately, much like Lost or Prometheus, it left me awestruck, but unsatisfied and confused in the extreme when it came to the nuts and bolts of the narrative. It strikes emotional highs, it has its big twist, and at times, the atmosphere is like no other game you'll ever experience, but it's more confusingly plotted and pieced together than probably anything I've ever experienced.

Are you sure you played the game? All of your questions are answered clearly throughout the game.

To say that the vox rebellion was just a by product of booker's presence in Columbia is a gross exaggeration - there were clearly serious underlying social problems in Columbia, and the vox and founders had been fighting for years since Lady Comstock's death.

In terms of the parachute I would like to know where you saw one during the game, as I did not see any at any point.

 

[Salamando]

The way I see it, he would have always kidnapped Elizabeth. I'm sure on some level he always wanted a kid, and when he found himself sterile, he wasn't going to just give up on that. Especially when he found out he was dying, and needed to start searching for a successor; and who better than his own blood. Sure, he could have adopted, but when he peeked across universes to see the no-good, self-loathing, gambler scum, Booker neglecting his child, HIS CHILD. Well that would just not stand. Elizabeth was basically Comstock's daughter, and he was sure he was a better man than Booker ever was, so to him he was doing the girl a favor.

It was probably only later that he discovered what kind of successor Elizabeth would become. Maybe there was a possibility she might have escaped, or refused to succeed Comstock. Maybe she could have killed him, or herself in some universes. But in one universe, he managed to break her, using a combination of torture, suppressing her powers, and eventually choking out all hope (as we saw firsthand). This might not have been an obvious choice, but when a ruthless dictator is faced with an all powerful rebellious daughter, it's not unreasonable to think that in one of a million universes he tried the specific horrifying method that ended up working. At that point, every Columbia universe course corrected toward this path, since every Comstock could see this possible future where Elizabeth became the prophet.

As for New York in flames, that seems like a bit of a chicken or an egg situation. It was probably always in the plan to attack the US. They forced Columbia to stand down after the Boxer rebellion; an act that infuriated Comstock so much that he seceded from the union. Beyond that, Comstock saw the US government as weak, and as enabling the very worst sort of people. But they were still a world power, while Comstock controlled a floating city, and the most advanced technology the world has ever seen. A conflict was inevitable, and frankly the fact that it took as long as it did is surprising. No doubt part of the objective in training his successor would have always involved attacking his enemies, but when he saw how gloriously her assault on New York would have gone, he probably tweaked his plans a bit to work towards that specific chain of events.

First paragraph, yeah, I can see that happening. Although with branches caused by gender, there are some Anna's who're male. Considering where Women stood in 1890's America and christianity (hell, look at where women are now in religion), he'd likely seek a male heir.

For the rest though, I question the probability of it happening. A window into probability would presumably show the universe that is most likely to happen from that point. If he had not seen that tear, what is the likelihood he would build a floating city in the first place (there's a lot more motivation to build an ark if you know a flood's coming), that he would grab a female heir, who he could then indoctrinate into carrying out his will?

That now raises the question...if he saw the vision through a tear, he must've been working with or near Rosalind Lutece already...but what business would he have with her if he didn't need an ark yet?

If the tears were just a window into any possibility, dude must've spent a long time looking at 'em to correctly deduce that Monument Island would break the way it did and that Liz would stab daisy with a pair of scissors.

In terms of the parachute I would like to know where you saw one during the game, as I did not see any at any point.

Playing devil's advocate here...if their city didn't have some kind of readily available escape mechanism for citizens, their city engineer deserved to be scalped. Even the Titanic had lifeboats. 'sides, something had to have slowed our rocket pod's descent.

 

[overcast]

So any idea how long before the DLC comes? I need more.

 

[King Beyond the wall]

Playing devil's advocate here...if their city didn't have some kind of readily available escape mechanism for citizens, their city engineer deserved to be scalped. Even the Titanic had lifeboats. 'sides, something had to have slowed our rocket pod's descent.

Couldn't the rocket pods own rockets have slowed the descent, I don't remember having the feeling that a parachute had just opened up above the rocket. Besides, considering that the rocket was aiming for a precise spot to dock in, a parachute would be an inaccurate method of landing there.

Evidently there wasn't any kind of escape mechanism for citizens because 1. The vox and working class population didn't use it to leave the city in the first place, and 2. The founders population didn't use it during the revolution - in fact you see them loading luggage and passengers onto a ship during the revolution level. I suppose that escape pods was something that the engineers didn't believe were necessary, and quite frankly, I would have believed them. The Lutece physics which allows the city to fly was, by definition, impossible to fail.

Also, I don't think the game would have had the same spark if it was 15 hours sitting in a room and sowing bedding sheets together to produce their own parachute.

 

[The Librarian]

Got a question. Why does Booker DeWitt's memory get affected when he's pulled into the Columbia universe for the first time, but not for other universes?

 

[Trigger]

Got a question. Why does Booker DeWitt's memory get affected when he's pulled into the Columbia universe for the first time, but not for other universes?

There seems to be a connection between death and the memory dissonance. People's memories don't seem to be affected unless there's a death involved (Chen Lin, the guys at the police station, etc). Booker's memory is affected in the Vox timeline. He gets a nosebleed and seems to vaguely recall working with Slate before shoving it aside focusing on the mission again. Just being in another timeline doesn't seem enough to alter a person's memory so I don't think his memory was altered the first time he visits Columbia. I'm under the impression that Our Booker sold Anna, carved her initials into his hand, and then just repressed his memory of the event after time before the Luteces sought him out again.

I've thought about the Luteces altering Booker's memories, but it doesn't really align with their motivations. I'm not even sure anyone can alter memories. lol, I'm probably just rambling now. It's all a bit wonky since Our Booker never divulges in detail exactly what he does or doesn't remember.

 

[Bog]

Rosalind Lutece is a quantum physicist who discovered how to suspend atoms mid-air, which is how the city floats; Robert Lutece is the same person as Rosalind, but from an alternate timeline; the only thing that separates them "is but a single chromosome," as Rosalind puts it. They performed the same space-time experiment from alternate worlds, eventually breaching space-time and bringing Robert over into Rosalind's timeline.

Elizabeth was stolen as a baby from one timeline and brought into another, and space-time itself severed her finger when the portal closed, splitting her between two worlds, and giving her command of the space in-between

The game makes a LOT of sense, especially for something that deals with time travel. Very well-done story.

Hil. Arious.

 

[krameriffic]

They're "spread across the possibility space". We don't really know what kind of state that's like. You can shoot them in game, but it has no effect. We're still not sure that their current state can even be undone.

As for the bolded, they were murdered by Comstock so they didn't get away unscathed. lol

Why don't the twins just kill Booker if they're in every timeline at every time?

 

[The Librarian]

Thanks, Trigger.

Hil. Arious.

What's hilarious?

 

[Red]

Hil. Arious.

The game does a great job of not betraying its internal logic. It is complex without being convoluted, and just about every plot point is intertwined with its central theme. It's nothing to laugh at. It tells its story well, despite its gamey conceits.

 

[Salamando]

Couldn't the rocket pods own rockets have slowed the descent, I don't remember having the feeling that a parachute had just opened up above the rocket. Besides, considering that the rocket was aiming for a precise spot to dock in, a parachute would be an inaccurate method of landing there.

Evidently there wasn't any kind of escape mechanism for citizens because 1. The vox and working class population didn't use it to leave the city in the first place, and 2. The founders population didn't use it during the revolution - in fact you see them loading luggage and passengers onto a ship during the revolution level. I suppose that escape pods was something that the engineers didn't believe were necessary, and quite frankly, I would have believed them. The Lutece physics which allows the city to fly was, by definition, impossible to fail.

Also, I don't think the game would have had the same spark if it was 15 hours sitting in a room and sowing bedding sheets together to produce their own parachute.

Wouldn't be so worried that the particles would fail as much as I'd worry my building could catch on fire and I'd have such a limited number of exit points. My restaurant's detached from everything else, it catches on fire, I'm screwed.

You're right, this is probably a moment of "it's like this so we can actually have a game." That's a sucky excuse though, and we wouldn't allow it in a book or movie.

There seems to be a connection between death and the memory dissonance. People's memories don't seem to be affected unless there's a death involved (Chen Lin, the guys at the police station, etc). Booker's memory is affected in the Vox timeline. He gets a nosebleed and seems to vaguely recall working with Slate before shoving it aside focusing on the mission again. Just being in another timeline doesn't seem enough to alter a person's memory so I don't think his memory was altered the first time he visits Columbia. I'm under the impression that Our Booker sold Anna, carved her initials into his hand, and then just repressed his memory of the event after time before the Luteces sought him out again.

I've thought about the Luteces altering Booker's memories, but it doesn't really align with their motivations. I'm not even sure anyone can alter memories. lol, I'm probably just rambling now. It's all a bit wonky since Our Booker never divulges in detail exactly what he does or doesn't remember.

Bolded is just flat wrong. When the Luteces first brought Booker to a Columbia universe, his brain was almost tearing itself apart, trying to "create memories where none exist". Even Robert Lutece's brain was hemorrhaging from the cognitive dissonance when he first entered the universe, and his living sister was there to meet him. Death is irrelevant.

As for the original question of "why isn't his brain so affected when visiting other realities", there's no concrete answer. The rules for the Cognitive Dissonance aren't established. Best I can offer is a theory. Whenever an entity enters a universe, their memories and the memories of that entity in the universe occupy his brain at the same time. In the "creating memories where none exist", he was resolving issues from having Comstock's memories on top of his. Since their lives were so different, it was quite a trial. Moving to Vox Martyr's universe, he had the memories of their Comstock and Booker on his (and not just Comstock for some reason), but since similar versions already existed in his head, it wasn't as troublesome.

Why don't the twins just kill Booker if they're in every timeline at every time?

It's hypothesized they have unlimited mobility through time/space/probability, but lack the ability to see every timeline as Liz can.

I hypothesized that the collective group of Luteces are using Booker as a grand old experiment into probability/possibility. Having entire universes near-identical to each other would be a gold mine for experimentation.

 

[Trigger]

Why don't the twins just kill Booker if they're in every timeline at every time?

Can they? Will it even accomplish what they want?

Bolded is just flat wrong. When the Luteces first brought Booker to a Columbia universe, his brain was almost tearing itself apart, trying to "create memories where none exist". Even Robert Lutece's brain was hemorrhaging from the cognitive dissonance when he first entered the universe, and his living sister was there to meet him. Death is irrelevant.

I forgot about that line, but I'm not sure death is irrelevant. Many instances of the hemorrhaging we see in game usually involve a death. The voxophone from Rosalind seems more the exception than the rule. But hell, I doubt Levine had solid rules for everything himself, lol.

 

[Bog]

Thanks, Trigger.


What's hilarious?

Those quotes all put together. That makes total sense? Really?

 

[Red]

Those quotes all put together. That makes total sense? Really?

Does it not?

 

[Roto13]

Those quotes all put together. That makes total sense? Really?

Within the rules of the game's universe, absolutely.

 

[Dommo]

Those quotes all put together. That makes total sense? Really?

I believe it's your turn to actually rebut. Not just vaguely and generically ridicule the game/posters.

 

[McLovin]

Was that scene after the credits suppose to show a version of booker that wasn't killed? I guess there was a version of him that turned down the original offer.

 

[Salamando]

Within the rules of the game's universe, absolutely.

The rules of the game's universes are so loosely defined that I won't fault anyone for not coming to grips with or accepting what happened. There's no voxophone that states how paradoxes are dealt with, and a lot of the Luteces explanations for how they/Liz got superpowers were mostly just educated guesses.

For all we know, the true source of Liz's power wasn't the act of her finger being cut off. There's some correlation between her powers and hormones, so maybe the universe has some hormonal influence (which would also explain why adults that universe-hop don't get powers)...it'd also make for a nice parallel to Jack's rapid plasmid/hormonal growth into a 19-yr old in 2 years. Or it could be a side effect of the Cognitive Dissonance. She had no counterpart in that world, so her memories were overwritten with the memories of the universe or something.

 

[Red]

Was that scene after the credits suppose to show a version of booker that wasn't killed? I guess there was a version of him that turned down the original offer.

I think the general theory is that Liz does not exist in the universes where he rejects baptism, so she can't "go back" and kill him. Think of the accept universes as lines that loop back on themselves from the time Liz starts time-hopping, where the meeting point between linear and loop-time is Booker's decision to accept the baptism. It's a circle from that point, effectively a closed loop, stopping that branch of possibilities from existing.

The rejection universes have no such loop and so continue linearly, or more precisely continue branching their possibilities.


@Salamando: we know definitively why Liz has her powers, and any speculation beyond what the game presents is simple fanwankery.

 

[Salamando]

@Salamando: we know definitively why Liz has her powers, and any speculation beyond what the game presents is simple fanwankery.

Do explain. We know the universe doesn't like its peas mixed with her porridge, that her powers are more to do with where she came from than what she is. We can infer that leaving part of yourself in another universe isn't enough, since neither Booker nor Robert got powers. Anything beyond is speculation.

 

[Trigger]

Do explain. We know the universe doesn't like its peas mixed with her porridge, that her powers are more to do with where she came from than what she is. We can infer that leaving part of yourself in another universe isn't enough, since neither Booker nor Robert got powers. Anything beyond is speculation.

I feel like I'm missing something here. When did Booker/Robert leave a piece of themselves in another timeline?

 

[Salamando]

I feel like I'm missing something here. When did Booker/Robert leave a piece of themselves in another timeline?

Baby teeth, blood, hair, even just skin cells. Not as notable as a finger, but still parts of them that they left in another universe. Like I said, simply leaving pieces behind not granting powers is more of an inference than a concrete fact.

 

[Red]

Baby teeth, blood, hair, even just skin cells. Not as notable as a finger, but still parts of them that they left in another universe. Like I said, simply leaving pieces behind not granting powers is more of an inference than a concrete fact.

It's still her pinky . The things you're speculating are irrelevant to Infinite 's mythology.

 

[Train of Midnight]

Ok, so I've been going over Ending analysis stuff all morning, and while it's been amazing to go over again in my head, there's one bit I haven't seen anyone touch on. In some videos I see Booker's right hand all bandaged up. In my game, I don't think I ever cut my hand. What's the deal with that?

Also, if you acted like a dick throughout the game (eg. threw the baseball at the black/white couple at the raffle) would you accept the baptism at the end and become Comstock? Or do you deny the baptism at the end no matter what?

Baby teeth, blood, hair, even just skin cells. Not as notable as a finger, but still parts of them that they left in another universe. Like I said, simply leaving pieces behind not granting powers is more of an inference than a concrete fact.

Okay, but think about this. Booker can still see the tears. He can see the possibilities when Elizabeth brings in cover/guns/etc before they're in that universe. Maybe what he left behind is enough to see, but not to interact.

 

[Trigger]

Salamando does make an interesting point. On a quantum level what's the difference between a thumb and the blood Booker spills?

Ok, so I've been going over Ending analysis stuff all morning, and while it's been amazing to go over again in my head, there's one bit I haven't seen anyone touch on. In some videos I see Booker's right hand all bandaged up. In my game, I don't think I ever cut my hand. What's the deal with that?

If you react too slowly at the ambush (where the woman pretends to mistake Liz) the guy at the counter stabs Booker in the hand.

Also, if you acted like a dick throughout the game (eg. threw the baseball at the black/white couple at the raffle) would you accept the baptism at the end and become Comstock? Or do you deny the baptism at the end no matter what?

The ending is the same regardless of your actions in game.

 

[Salamando]

Salamando does make an interesting point. On a quantum level what's the difference between a thumb and the blood Booker spills?

I assume there is none, but the extension of that idea was just that it was the Tear's closing that could've granted the superpowers, not just the losing of the finger itself. My main argument is why do we assume that was the sole source of her powers? There are three universe hoppers we know of...Anna, Booker, and Robert. Anna had her finger cut off by a tear, she had no counterpart in the universe she jumped to, she was female, she was young and was still aging due to hormones and such...there's a lot of variables that could've granted her powers and not Booker or Robert.

 

[Neiteio]

Those quotes all put together. That makes total sense? Really?

Try looking at a plot and discussion about it in context sometimes. It's amazing how things make sense in context rather than when quoted out of context. Crazy concept, I know.

On the other topic of leaving behind skin cells, baby teeth, etc, we can deduce from this that the difference is not -what- was left behind, but -how- it was left behind -- namely, space-time itself doing the cutting.

 

[Red]

The significance of her power spike at the onset of puberty is representative of her emerging wanderlust. When she is a child she is satisfied with why she knows, and she considers Songbird a friend. He is in a real sense like those stuffed-Songbirds you see throughout the game. As she grows she learns more, and wants to learn more, and is increasingly repressed and controlled... She is countered in every effort by Comstock's machines. Her hormones aren't the cause of her powers. Her lost pinky is. It's fine to propose other possibilities, but from the start we know the answer.

 

[Neiteio]

The significance of her power spike at the onset of puberty is representative of her emerging wanderlust. When she is a child she is satisfied with why she knows, and she considers Songbird a friend. He is in a real sense like those stuffed-Songbirds you see throughout the game. As she grows she learns more, and wants to learn more, and is increasingly repressed and controlled... She is countered in every effort by Comstock's machines. Her hormones aren't the cause of her powers. Her lost pinky is. It's fine to propose other possibilities, but from the start we know the answer.

Again, it's not the pinky itself that provides her powers. It's -how- the pinky was cut. This is what makes the pinky different than, say, Robert Lutece leaving behind skin cells when he travels between worlds. Elizabeth got powers and the others did not because the universe itself breached her. Since the universe did the "cutting," something wasn't cut at all -- and so Liz still had connections to the other world, and the space in-between, and through it, all worlds ever. According to the rules of the game's internal logic, it's sound.

 

[Trigger]

I assume there is none, but the extension of that idea was just that it was the Tear's closing that could've granted the superpowers, not just the losing of the finger itself. My main argument is why do we assume that was the sole source of her powers? There are three universe hoppers we know of...Anna, Booker, and Robert. Anna had her finger cut off by a tear, she had no counterpart in the universe she jumped to, she was female, she was young and was still aging due to hormones and such...there's a lot of variables that could've granted her powers and not Booker or Robert.

Honestly, it's the only thing we have to go on. Rosalind's other voxophones build most of the foundation for theories concerning the tears (and she is her universe's expert it seems). Combine that with the scene where Anna loses the pinky and I just feel like we're supposed to draw that conclusion. Unfortunately it doesn't hold up well to scrutiny.

 

[Salamando]

The significance of her power spike at the onset of puberty is representative of her emerging wanderlust. When she is a child she is satisfied with why she knows, and she considers Songbird a friend. He is in a real sense like those stuffed-Songbirds you see throughout the game. As she grows she learns more, and wants to learn more, and is increasingly repressed and controlled... She is countered in every effort by Comstock's machines. Her hormones aren't the cause of her powers. Her lost pinky is. It's fine to propose other possibilities, but from the start we know the answer.

Why though? How can you be so sure it was the pinky cutting and not one of the other variables?

As I've said before, the Luteces were terrible scientists here. They never did any testing to verify the source of near-godhood. They're already morally okay with babynapping, so why not steal 5 kids? Given infinite universes, they could've stolen the same exact kids...some as male, some as female, some with fingers cut off, some with nothing cut off...when I first got to Comstock house and saw it was a kind of asylum, I thought we would deal with the "failures" of such an experiment.

 

[Red]

Why though? How can you be so sure it was the pinky cutting and not one of the other variables?

As I've said before, the Luteces were terrible scientists here. They never did any testing to verify the source of near-godhood. They're already morally okay with babynapping, so why not steal 5 kids? Given infinite universes, they could've stolen the same exact kids...some as male, some as female, some with fingers cut off, some with nothing cut off...when I first got to Comstock house and saw it was a kind of asylum, I thought we would deal with the "failures" of such an experiment.

Besides the game repeatedly calling attention to it? The scene where you see it happen forces you into a PoV directed at it, in slow mo, as it falls right in front of your face.

 

[Salamando]

Besides the game repeatedly calling attention to it? The scene where you see it happen forces you into a PoV directed at it, in slow mo, as it falls right in front of your face.

The missing finger could be just the means to say Liz is Booker's daughter before the game outright says it. Liz is missing a finger, Comstock brings it up right before the end, hints that Booker knows why it's missing, and then we see Anna lose her finger. Could just be there to elicit and reinforce an "oh sh-, Liz is Booker's daughter" reaction. Why can't it just be a unique characteristic linking Liz to Anna?

 

[McLovin]

I assume there is none, but the extension of that idea was just that it was the Tear's closing that could've granted the superpowers, not just the losing of the finger itself. My main argument is why do we assume that was the sole source of her powers? There are three universe hoppers we know of...Anna, Booker, and Robert. Anna had her finger cut off by a tear, she had no counterpart in the universe she jumped to, she was female, she was young and was still aging due to hormones and such...there's a lot of variables that could've granted her powers and not Booker or Robert.

If losing her pinky had nothing to do with it then why even lose it in the first place?
Besides I wouldn't look further into it, since it is a video game. They could have made it any reason since its fictional.

 

[Red]

The missing finger could be just the means to say Liz is Booker's daughter before the game outright says it. Liz is missing a finger, Comstock brings it up right before the end, hints that Booker knows why it's missing, and then we see Anna lose her finger. Could just be there to elicit and reinforce an "oh sh-, Liz is Booker's daughter" reaction. Why can't it just be a unique characteristic linking Liz to Anna?

Because it's not. That's the explanation... You are looking for things that aren't there.

 

[Salamando]

Because it's not. That's the explanation... You are looking for things that aren't there.

"because it's not" is a terrible defense. A much better one would've been "Well, the Luteces were killed by Fink sabotaging their machine. Parts of them would've been sent to alternate universes, and look what happened to them. Liz was just lucky enough to have her conciousness left intact"

Like I said at the start of this argument, the rules of the universe aren't defined well at all, so I can only sympathize with people who think the story doesn't make much sense or they think it's crap.

 

[Red]

"Because it's not" is the only necessary defense in this context. You are speculating on things outside the scope of the game's narrative. There's nothing really wrong with that, but (and I don't mean this derisively--don't think I'm veering into snark) it belongs more to the realm of fanficfiction than a discussion of whether or not the story makes sense, or is complete.

I'd like to say more, but I'm on my phone/at work. Maybe later.

 

[Salamando]

"Because it's not" is the only necessary defense in this context. You are speculating on things outside the scope of the game's narrative. There's nothing really wrong with that, but (and I don't mean this derisively--don't think I'm veering into snark) it belongs more to the realm of fanficfiction than a discussion of whether or not the story makes sense, or is complete.

I'd like to say more, but I'm on my phone/at work. Maybe later.

I simply disagree. I see the game's story as a giant puzzle, and there's a lot of places where pieces either didn't exist or were vague. It's left many of us to create our own pieces to fit the puzzle. In many cases, two different people could create two different pieces that fit in the same space. One of my key problems with the game's story are the explanation the audience gave to it...many aspects are stated as fact when most are supposition.

I'm at relative peace with the story right now, but only because I made up some of my own rules for how things played out...i made some of my own pieces. I can sympathize with people who feel the story is incomplete because I recognize that.

 

[Red]

The pinky being key to Liz's power is not something that is incomplete. If nothing else, the narrative is overtly clear about that.

It is an established rule. The game makes that clear... Whether it is how or that the pinky was split is a different discussion, but arguing that it is not the source of her ability (or its circumstances her channel to that source) is totally missing the mark. Elizabeth exists simultaneously in two different spaces, and her pinky being cut off is the reason for that. That's the game's established rule, that's its logic. Because it doesn't explicitly rule out other cases (baby teeth, skin cells, whatever) is irrelevant... Those are not a part of the mythology, they're not a part of the narrative. They're outside that sphere.

This is a weird thing to get hung up on.

 

[Salamando]

The pinky being key to Liz's power is not something that is incomplete. If nothing else, the narrative is overtly clear about that.

It is an established rule. The game makes that clear... Whether it is how or that the pinky was split is a different discussion, but arguing that it is not the source of her ability (or its circumstances her channel to that source) is totally missing the mark. Elizabeth exists simultaneously in two different spaces, and her pinky being cut off is the reason for that. That's the game's established rule, that's its logic. Because it doesn't explicitly rule out other cases (baby teeth, skin cells, whatever) is irrelevant... Those are not a part of the mythology, they're not a part of the narrative. They're outside that sphere.

Considering the "how" or "that", I'm content ruling out the "that" because of the teeth/skin/blood issue. If it was an issue of "that", Booker and Robert would have powers, but they don't, leaving the "how". Accepting the "how" as a potential source of powers is fine by me. But accepting that is definitely is the source of her powers, there's the issue. It's vague enough to leave room for speculation. If one can accept that having a digit cut off by a tear creates superpowers, why is it farfetched to accept that entering a universe where there's no other you has the same effect?

You enter a universe where "you" already exist = cognitive dissonance/hemmoraging. Enter one where "you" don't exist = superpowers. Kind of the universe's way of allowing you to get home. Universe already keeps track of everyone's memories...maybe encountering an entity with no memory record is like dividing by zero.


For the record, this isn't even the thing that I had the most speculation about. The Vox Martyr Universe was. What the hell happened to their Liz, and why was their Monument Island destroyed the same way ours was (When Booker got there, Liz was already moved to Comstock house, so Songbird wouldn't have attacked)?

 

[FlyFaster]

Just (literally) got done with the game. (put Monster hunter on hold for 2 days) and then read through this thread.

I Love the story.
I love this thread.
I love all of you.

Thank you to everyone who helped contribute to this thread.

The story and this thread made me feel like a kid again, looking up at the stars and wondering how far "it" really goes and then hitting that wondrous cusp where your mind is unable to imagine or contemplate further and you are left in awe.

Thank you, this is what gaming can be. What it can do.


EDIT:

HOLY SHIT! I GET BIOSHOCK 1 FOR FREE.

 

[Roto13]

So why was Elizabeth trapped in that tower if she could open up tears? She seems to really want to go to Paris, despite just opening and closing a tear to Paris right before you meet her.

 

[Shrennin]

For the record, this isn't even the thing that I had the most speculation about. The Vox Martyr Universe was. What the hell happened to their Liz, and why was their Monument Island destroyed the same way ours was (When Booker got there, Liz was already moved to Comstock house, so Songbird wouldn't have attacked)?

We can assume that Liz is still in Comstock House getting brainwashed or whatever and Monument Island could have been destroyed by the Vox (as a message/statement). It's also entirely possible that Liz merged the universe that she was from with her memory to the new Vox Martyr universe that she and Booker enters.

 

[Trigger]

So why was Elizabeth trapped in that tower if she could open up tears? She seems to really want to go to Paris, despite just opening and closing a tear to Paris right before you meet her.

I was under the impression that it was very hard for her to control them near the Siphon. Maybe she was just afraid?

 

[Elev8ion]

I know this will be seen as blasphemy in this thread, but there are some problems within the story of the game which makes the overarching theme a little more difficult to embrace.

I wouldn't mind Bioshock or it's "sequel/prequel" to do something a little different than the whole nostalgia nonsense....

 

[Salamando]

We can assume that Liz is still in Comstock House getting brainwashed or whatever and Monument Island could have been destroyed by the Vox (as a message/statement). It's also entirely possible that Liz merged the universe that she was from with her memory to the new Vox Martyr universe that she and Booker enters.

You'd think Comstock would be freaking out that he now has two Liz's under his roof at that point or at least mention it. Hell, he wouldn't have even needed our Liz. Could've just shot her in the face, and his plan don't change a bit. He had a spare.

Didn't get the impression that Liz had universe-merging powers.

I was under the impression that it was very hard for her to control them near the Siphon. Maybe she was just afraid?

I was thinking about the Siphon, and more specifically Liz's imprisonment above it. What was Comstock's game? His end goal was for her to be heir to Columbia's throne, but she didn't even know what he looked like.

Siphon itself, Liz described it as a leash. I think part of that means she was tethered to be within so much distance of it. She could enter realities that have one, but couldn't completely separate herself from it.

I know this will be seen as blasphemy in this thread, but there are some problems within the story of the game which makes the overarching theme a little more difficult to embrace.

I welcome another person to poke holes at the story to see how well it really holds up. Was getting lonely.

 

[Mik_Pad]

Was there any explanation on how Salts worked??

I felt Vigors and Salts were underdeveloped compared to Plasmids and Adam.