I got the impression that the Elizabeths would do that for all Bookers, not just the one you're playing as, you just don't see it. Either that, or because the universes branch at that point then killing Booker there cuts off that branch.
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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
RustyNails
Member
How so? What is the relationship between this instance of Booker and other Bookers, where if this.Booker doesnt become Baptist then all others wont?
So all the Bookers until Wounded Knee behave the same, and Baptism is the point where they all diverge?
likely not, but i'm starting to feel that's what we're supposed to think when erasing the choice.
which, given that you are right, falls apart under a true infinite universe theory.
edit: or as wet flame says, elizabeth goes everywhere and snuffs out that decision for everyone.
Tony Redgrave
Member
The mechanics are not explained in detail but it seems that all Bookers that decided to Baptize themselves because of guilt are either killed by Elizabeth or more probably are simply erased from existence in their respective worlds, in some sort of chain reaction, that's the most likely scenario since not all Bookers reach the point "our" Booker did even if they did not become Comstock.
The rest of the Bookers should be alright, since turning into Comstock seems to be exclusively tied to the Baptism in every single world.
Not exactly, presumably there is an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possibilities even though many share similar characteristics. There must be universes in which Booker was never born or wasn't even in the army. It seems though that the Baptism is the only variable that produces him turning into Comstock (supposedly variable Comstocks as well but all sharing similar paths) so eliminating all Booker variables that decide to Baptize themselves eliminates all Comstocks and Elizabeths as well.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Yes. There are an infinite amount of universes where booker died before the baptism or lives a life where he would never have gone to war and thus been at wounded knee and eventually the baptism. However, that single point in his life across those infinite universes where he does reach that point creates another infinite number of other possibilities, many of which lead to comstock and everything that happened to Elizabeth that he vows to never let happen again.
He asked her to help him smother comstock in his crib, and thus she brought him to that point. Everything happening to her and him rests on that point, and to eliminate any possibility of comctock, she has to remove the choice and kill him there. Those infinite universes are eliminated, but other ones where he never reached the baptism still exist. This explains the post credits scene.
RustyNails
Member
That is impossible. Elizabeth(s) cannot kill every Booker. There are *infinite* number of them.
You are ignoring the fact that Elizabeth is a god at the end of the game. She drowns every single Booker at once. They only show her drowning us but the fact that so many Elizabeths show up is a metaphor for her showing up in an infinite amount of timelines to snuff out all Booker's before the choice can be made.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
That is one theory. The other is that drowning one prevents every other booker.
My God...
http://youtu.be/LkvMjSn31t0?t=5m53s
vs.
http://youtu.be/6pVTBbkm4VU?t=1m9s
Blowin' ma mind!
http://youtu.be/LkvMjSn31t0?t=5m53s
vs.
http://youtu.be/6pVTBbkm4VU?t=1m9s
Blowin' ma mind!
Well drowning one would do absolutely nothing, there is no question there. An infinite amount of Booker's go to the baptism (every single Booker, actually, if we accept the rules of the game) and drowning one Booker would get rid of an infinite amount of Bookers and Comstocks but it would not get rid of all of them.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Disagree. As i stated in a slightly earlier post, there are an infinite number of booker realities that never got to the baptism, either through death of life choices. I subscribe to the thought that Elizebeth tore to the world before that constant was established, and killed the possibilities of those infinite universes to be born, thus not requiring every Elizabeth everywhere to go on the journey that would give her the power to take booker back there and drown him. The universe only needs one to do that.
bodyofanamerican
Member
I upgraded it once and was fine.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Yeah, the only two upgrades are less salt cost to hold the effect up, and the other to turn absorbed ammunition into something you can use. Neither is needed for that final boss battle effect.
Pretty cool catch
You're breaking the rules of the game if you want to think that there are an infinite number of Booker's that never got to the baptism based on life choices. Booker can die before the baptism, yes, but those universes don't matter, that universe becomes a dud for our case. But if Booker is alive at that point in his life, he goes to the baptism. The entire story hinges on that moment in his life so it is obviously a constant. Even if you want to throw that out, I don't think anyone is arguing that an infinite number of Elizabeth's have to make the journey to become god, only one has to make it and that is the point of the Lutece's doing this experiment over and over again until they got it right. One god Elizabeth is enough to do the drowning in an infinite number of realities. She exists outside of the boundaries of time and the only rule she has to follow is that when she snuffed out her father before she could be born, obviously that made her disappear. Other than that, she has free reign to do anything she wants and this was the easiest solution to account for every single possible Comstock variable.
Tony Redgrave
Member
But if every single Booker that doesn't die before the Baptism is killed/destroyed/erased by Elizabeth, how do you explain the post credits scene?
There must be a Booker that exists up to the point of Anna being a baby without having gone through Baptism and thus not being killed by Elizabeth. Either the multiverse rearranged somehow or there are Bookers that made different life choices and never went through with it.
I will explain my personal views on this and then re-iterate what The One Who Knocks has said one million and one times already in this thread.
First, I believe that the post-credits scene doesn't belong in the story and Ken was forced to add it in to give 2K a "happy" ending. It wouldn't be the first time he had to negotiate his story (the ending specifically) for his publisher.
If you would like take the post-credits scene at face value then Knocks theory is the only one that really makes much sense. Every Booker is drowned before the baptism ever occurs. This act causes all Elizabeth's to never exist in the first place. This is a paradox and the universe has to do what it can to resolve all paradoxes. The way it chooses to resolve said paradox is to eliminate the reason for the paradox. The thing causing the paradox is the Booker's who were not going to accept baptism being drowned by their future daughter. The universe corrects this by changing a variable to a constant. The variable was that he could choose to be baptised or not. Now it is a constant that he never gets baptised thus preventing the paradox. He now always goes to the baptism and always rejects it once he gets there. This removes all paradoxes and Comstocks from the universe.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Breaking the rules? Which rules? Yes they mention constants, but the whole point is breaking the cycle that the possibilities of that constant create. The baptism is the constant for columbia and comstock universes, not bookers entire possible life. One booker just needs to die if he is brought back to eliminate that constant, not for every elizebeth to kill every booker anywhere.
EDIT: You cant just throw away the post credit scene with something as flimsy as that. This is a man who was given 5 years and a 200+ team to make the game he wants and you are trying to get me to believe 2K somehow, after all the freedom he was given, forced him to include a potential happy ending? That makes more sense than you just possibly being wrong in this case? Really?
Tony Redgrave
Member
That's good, albeit still speculation. Remember that there must be universes with wild differences between themselves (take Robert being the male version of Rosalind for example) so the Baptism being a invariable constant seems kind of difficult. On way or the other the result is the same.
The rule that a constant is a constant. The Lutece's show you as much with their coin flip. Somethings are just constant regardless of the possibilities it may spawn. The baptism is one such thing. Booker has been, is there, and will go to the baptism, its a constant. I also have no idea what you are trying to say in your last sentence but I will reiterate again. Not every elizabeth is killing every Booker. One Elizabeth is killing every Booker.
EDIT: In regards to your edit, it is my understanding that the first Bioshock was not supposed to have two endings but it did at the behest of 2K. Why would this project suddenly give Ken more immunity from his publisher? Regardless, I still answered the question without throwing it away so I don't know why you had to poke at my theory that can't be refuted anyway.
From a pure multiverse perspective, yeah there are universes with wild differences. This game isn't using pure multiverse though. They tell you as much with the coin flip scene. It is always heads, it doesn't matter how wildly different the universe is, that coin will always land on heads at that moment.
Dragon1893
Member
There are only 2 options here:
Either the baptism is a constant in the sense that it always happens at that point in Booker's life (assuming he lives that long),
or it's a constant in the sense that it's the only thing that can trigger Booker becoming Comstock.
If it's the first every Booker dies at that point.
If it's the second then there are Bookers that never even go to the baptism which could lead them to the post credits situation.
Either the baptism is a constant in the sense that it always happens at that point in Booker's life (assuming he lives that long),
or it's a constant in the sense that it's the only thing that can trigger Booker becoming Comstock.
If it's the first every Booker dies at that point.
If it's the second then there are Bookers that never even go to the baptism which could lead them to the post credits situation.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
That is where we kind of agree, but disagree on the how. In my eyes, Elizabeth drowning booker before the constant is in essence killing every booker and thus every reality good or bad born from that moment, but your saying that same Elizabeth is doing that something infinitely. Even though a paradox means that makes no sense, unless we assume god Elizabeth is now somehow above that.
That just seems like such a less clean of a solution to me.
Anyway, i loved talking about this. I missed out on the early discussion because i only beat it last week.
EDIT: Did not mean to come across hostile. Apologies.
And see, I don't think anything I am saying causes a paradox (except for the fact that a daughter is killing a father before she was born but I think we all agree that is obviously what happens). She can do something in an infinite amount of universes at once because of her god powers but she still exists within the timeline so she, effectively, deletes herself with that act.
And yeah, no worries about any intended or unintended hostilities. This is fun to discuss and any good discussion comes with heated moments by default. That being said, I took a couple week hiatus from these threads because I discussed this to death the first week when I ahd beaten it lol
HueyFreeman
Banned
She's both. She flickers in and out.
Ignore the Constants and Variables crap. The coin flip isn't a constant so much as Booker himself is a constant. Coin flips aren't as random as we'd like to think they are, but that's another topic entirely.
Consider just one universe. Imagine Booker getting to the baptism, creating Comstock/Booker branches, with infinite branches spreading from there. Can you accept that if Liz drowns Booker before the Comstock branch, then Comstock ceases to exist?
Consider two universes. Both Bookers get to the baptism, each creating their own Comstock/Booker branches...from each of those two root universes, some number of Liz's will be able to destroy the siphon and drown their own Booker. A Liz from a branch from universe 1 drowns universe 1 Booker, a Liz from a branch from universe 2 drowns universe 2 Booker.
For infinite universes, each branch where Booker reaches the Baptism only requires 1 Liz. Sure, infinite Bookers need to be destroyed, but infinite Liz's will exist to destroy him.
lol ignore one of the main themes of the game. Yeah, that's how you should always digest your stories.
To me, it just gets in the way of the story. We'd be so willing to think Comstock being a bearded old sterile man as a constant, if we weren't told in a voxophone there's a fit Comstock somewhere else. Within the world of Bioshock, only constants that were explicit were a Lighthouse, a City, and a Man, and even then the lighthouse/man/city itself wasn't always the same.
Came across this excellent breakdown of infinite's story, written like a short story. Out of all the things I've read, I found this the most easily digestible breakdown. Sorry if it's been posted already, but I didn't see it in the OP or the couple dozen pages of this thread that I read.
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1cr5qz/bioshock_infinite_history_caution_all_the_spoilers/
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1cr5qz/bioshock_infinite_history_caution_all_the_spoilers/
A part of the story can't get in the way of the story and its silly to think so. I understand that I've been claiming since day one that the post-credits scene was shoe-horned in for no reason but at least that is something that really does come out of left field. On the other hand, you can't go an hour in the game without the constants and variables theme coming up in some capacity. At least 10% of the audio diaries brought it up and I think you could make a case that every single time the Luteces were on screen, they brought it up in some way.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Trying to think back as it has been a while since I have played this part, but Slate remembered fighting with Comstock, AND Booker right? He goes on about having fought with you before, but also goes on about Comstock embellishing his roll in those battles...
Or am I misremembering? (I am sure I am as that wouldn't make sense.)
Or am I misremembering? (I am sure I am as that wouldn't make sense.)
Jack Scofield
Member
Something I don't understand: when you first enter the tear into an "alternate" Columbia (in which Chen Lin is alive), you come across various enemies who are simultaneously in a state of life and death. Elizabeth says it's because they remember being dead, presumably since you killed them a few minutes earlier.
But this is an alternate universe. Why are they having memories bleed over from the original timeline? In the first Columbia, they're dead, but not in the second one, so why does this issue exist? They're alive now, end of story, regardless if they're dead in any alternate universes.
Hell, if time is an ocean where everything is happening simultaneously, then everybody in the game should be experiencing this discordance.
But this is an alternate universe. Why are they having memories bleed over from the original timeline? In the first Columbia, they're dead, but not in the second one, so why does this issue exist? They're alive now, end of story, regardless if they're dead in any alternate universes.
Hell, if time is an ocean where everything is happening simultaneously, then everybody in the game should be experiencing this discordance.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
I think its because the worlds exist as seperate until Elizabeth tears us through. Because they were in close proximity to her when she made the tear, their consciousness made the jump too and created conflict, just like booker briefly experiences.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I think that's because Elizabeth's powers are not 100% functional (because of the Syphon), and instead of her transporting only herself and Booker to the other universe, she might have also transported and/or affected some of the people in the area, which were those soldiers, causing a dissonance.
My favorite explanation...
"Instead of opening a hole into another world, [...] she appears to 'overlay' the whole universe onto her own. She opens the tear so wide that it covers everything, instead of the small ones she was doing earlier in the game. This leads to two conflicting universes on top of one another"
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1cr5qz/bioshock_infinite_history_caution_all_the_spoilers/
I wouldn't say everything as in all of Columbia because then you would be getting dissonance from everyone you meet. It seems the overlay is just in a large area, basically the immediate area, so in the case of Chen Lin, we are overlaying all of Finktown.
I don't remember exact wording but Slate basically says that Booker was the true hero and that Comstock was a fake trying to take all the glory. From that it can be inferred that Comstock either wasn't there at all or had a very small part. I think that was the game trying to subtly trick you into thinking Comstock was there in a small role in Slate's eyes but they never outright said that.
Edit: I guess I should put here that I am speaking of Wounded Knee, there was no Booker or Comstock really inviolved with the Boxer Rebellion, it was more just Columbia as a whole hovering over China and acting tough.
Booker was at Wounded Knee, but Comstock was there for the Boxer rebellion (although he didn't play a significant part in Slate's opinion). So I think it makes sense.
And fair point about the large area, eli's power has grown, but the syphon isn't destroyed yet, so that sounds like a fair middleground.
And fair point about the large area, eli's power has grown, but the syphon isn't destroyed yet, so that sounds like a fair middleground.
I'm likely misrepresenting my thoughts. I'm okay with it as a theme, but I'm not okay with many of the things people keep on exclaiming are constants. A city is a constant, but neither Columbia nor Rapture is. A man is a constant, but neither Booker, Delta, or Jack are. The baptism is a constant for games in the Bioshock Infinite branches, but there's insufficient evidence to say it's a constant for the branches where Rapture is.
I'm of the mind that when Rapture exists in a reality, Columbia does not and vice-versa. And if (or when) Ken makes a new Bioshock, that city will also be mutually exclusive to its universe and there will be no rapture or columbia in that universe. I know there isn't sufficient evidence for that claim but that is how I took Elizabeth's fairly open-ended statements about the city, lighthouse, etc. etc. With that being said in regards to the bolded, I do still believe that Booker always attends the baptism if he is alive at that point in his life but in all the cases where he rejects the baptism, Rapture has the possibility of now existing in that reality. It's not really like Booker's baptism has to do with the creation of Rapture but more that the universe allows Rapture to come into existence because Columbia did not.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I can't wait for the DLC. I'm sure that we will be playing as another Booker that did things differently and so can see more of Songbird or more of the Vox or more of the city.
I kinda hope it starts like the Twilight Zone with that kinda intro because of the Columbia's documentaries that were released as marketing.
I kinda hope it starts like the Twilight Zone with that kinda intro because of the Columbia's documentaries that were released as marketing.
"Fit alternate universe Comstock" is just Booker.
Well Baptised Booker, technically.
If you follow the meta-commentary stuff, could've also been talking about the early Alpha versions of Comstock, where he didn't have the beard. Game also featured early alpha Liz, so it's possible.
Rapture as it exists in Bioshock wouldn't exist in the same universe as Columbia (could they keep Vigors a secret that long?)...but I didn't take anything liz said to mean the lighthouse/man/city couldn't exist in the same universe. Opinions though, more than anything.
Bolded though, I definitely disagree with. If there exists some number of universes where Booker was born (and born a male), then the number of universes where he gets to the baptism is a subset of those. However, it is only those universes where Columbia can exist and so qualify as a Bioshock Infinite universe. Within the scope of Bioshock Infinite universes, the baptism can be a constant, but within the more universal scope, it isn't. Hence why I'm uncomfortable considering it a true constant.
Estocolmo
Member
I feel dumb about it, but was I the only one that didn't see or catch Elizabeth missing a part of her finger until the very last end of the game? I replayed the game recently and noticed that Elizabeth mentioned her missing a part of her finger only once, and that was in the sequence after you get the weapon cache, between the movement of some sky-line boxes. I totally missed when she told Booker about her missing finger because of the loud background noises the boxes made. And that was the ONLY time in the game when she or anyone else mentions it.
Like I said, I still feel dumb about it afterwards but a bit disappointed that the developers didn't make it more obvious that she was missing a part of her finger. It had after all a very significant part of the story. They should have dedicated that moment in a better situation.
Like I said, I still feel dumb about it afterwards but a bit disappointed that the developers didn't make it more obvious that she was missing a part of her finger. It had after all a very significant part of the story. They should have dedicated that moment in a better situation.
Chip N Chance
Member
She flashes black and white as if she is a tear.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Did an easy playthrough to get some achievements. Only missed one.
What's the earliest/best place to get the Lost Weekend (kill 5 while drunk) achievement?
Managed to get Heartbreaker achievement on the handyman as you enter the Emporium. Some Vox + decy kept him distraced and I was able to go back and fourth on a far skyline and snipe him. Was planning to try and get it on the airship handyman since there are long straightaways under skylines, and I figured sniping would be easier.
What's the earliest/best place to get the Lost Weekend (kill 5 while drunk) achievement?
Managed to get Heartbreaker achievement on the handyman as you enter the Emporium. Some Vox + decy kept him distraced and I was able to go back and fourth on a far skyline and snipe him. Was planning to try and get it on the airship handyman since there are long straightaways under skylines, and I figured sniping would be easier.
HawksWinStanley
Member
So what happened with this game?
It sounded like a nightmare during production and everyone was ripping on the pre-release footage and deeming it a failure. Then before I know it it comes out and the reviews are fantastic and everybody loves it.
Fergusson am God?
It sounded like a nightmare during production and everyone was ripping on the pre-release footage and deeming it a failure. Then before I know it it comes out and the reviews are fantastic and everybody loves it.
Fergusson am God?
ProfessorLobo
Banned
I wasn't in love with the game but I need to get this.
Poimandres
Member
I finished the game yesterday... damn, loved the ending. What a great game.
This thread is fantastic as well!
This thread is fantastic as well!
Lost Weekend can be easily earned in Shantytown's bar. Load up the Shantytown chapter and then walk straight into the bar at the beginning of the level. You'll get an autosave as soon as you walk into the bar, so you can restart the checkpoint if you screw up.
The bar has plenty of alcohol. The table in the centre of the bar has about 5 patrons sitting there. Drink a bunch until you're drunk and then drop a Devil's Kiss trap in the middle of the table. The achievement should pop right away. If it doesn't, you can restart the checkpoint.