-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Black: GameSpot Review
- Thread starter suikodan
- Start date
Gek54 said:
Your are certainly entitled to that opinion like I always say. I could pick minute little minor additions in every FPS that hits the market and claim it's the new hotness. Shooting a door and blowing it open is cool. Does it matter in the long run or is it so cool that its some radical advance in FPS's? Not imo. I don't think you play enough first person shooters if you think that is some magical thing.
SolidSnakex
Member
gigamex said:
It probably isn't, but its nice to see it happening. Devs are often able to make cheap puzzles out of finding some key to get into a door. So it's nice to just walk up to it and blow it open instead of having to find a key to open it.
AltogetherAndrews
Member
gigamex said:
I just did that today, in Deus Ex. Hell, that game often gave you a choice between bypassing security systems, obtaining a door code, picking a lock or simply shooting the damned door open. And that game came out in 2000, right?
Kabuki Waq
Member
so which version did you get GEK?
The Faceless Master
Member
Darkwatch is better than Black...Gek54 said:
Kabuki Waq
Member
Gek: can ya answer my question?
The Faceless Master
Member
more like kilzone 0.3alumn said:
killzone is more than twice the game black is, and that's an amazing accomplishment for a game as bad as killzone!
Gek54 said:
Well my point is that it's not in the scheme of things that big a deal unless there is actually some real gameplay mechanic to it. Cool I whip out my gun and shoot the door down. I'll agree it adds some level of immersiveness I suppose. Of course I can take the rocket launcher and attempt to shoot a hole in the very wall next to it and it doesn't blow a hole in it so there is still a level of abstraction there. It's cool but in the larger scope it's moot (to me). It's like something having a nice texture on it. Is it the good that texture is better? Of course. Does it actually increase my long term enjoyment of said title? Not really.
Using this logic I can't roll like in Perfect Dark when I'm moving and I can't take cover against an item and pop-out like in perfect dark. So I guess those should be the norm in something like black right and it's woefully deficent because those things don't exist in the game? And at least those are actual gameplay mechanics.
That's my problem with Black. For the number of things it "gets right". It's missing dozens and dozens of things that are just standard in other FPS's. I don't see how I'm supposed to only see what it brings to the table without realizing everything it didn't bring.
Kabuki Waq
Member
Gek54 said:
framerate doesnt bother you? :lol do you still have an xbox ? if so why didnt you get that version ?
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Kabuki Waq said:
Is there any detailed breakdown between the two yet? With Criterion games, people have to be more anal with small detail differences than other games when it comes to multi-console releases. I'ill like to hear the difference besides the Dolby Pro Logic 2 and DD 5.1 one.
gigamex said:
Holy fuck dude, you are comparing textures to the ability to blow doors down? Its part of the gameplay mechanics that adds to the immersion and over all fun of the game. Man, black must really be good if all you have to troll is the fact that its not the first game to do such a thing.
Were you one of the people that bitched that Dual-weilding in Halo 2 is lame and doesnt add to the enjoyment becuase its been done before?
No FPS game does everything right though I guess you will never get to enjoy the things Black does right becuae your glass is always half empty. Have fun with that mentality.
Kabuki Waq said:
Only framerate issue I have noticed is a couple of instnaces of shooting people at a very far distance while there is smoke or dust in the view. Other than that its been nice, its not like it is a racing game anyways.
I still have an xbox but everyone only sends me PS2 copies of games. If the xbox version is as good or better I would rather play using the controller-S.
Kabuki Waq
Member
Gek54 said:Only framerate issue I have noticed is a couple of instnaces of shooting people at a very far distance while there is smoke or dust in the view. Other than that its been nice, its not like it is a racing game anyways.
I still have an xbox but everyone only sends me PS2 copies of games. If the xbox version is as good or better I would rather play using the controller-S.
bah your no fun anymore gek.
Gek54 said:
We don't agree on the definition of actual gameplay mechanics.
Gek54 said:
Nice deflection and generalization. Sure I'll bite. I have to bring that game down because single handedly I have the ability to effect sales of it!!!!
Gek54 said:
No because I actually thought it was cool and added to the gameplay as it is a true gameplay mechanic with upsides and downsides and all that. Of course I didn't think it was the first game to ever do it.
Gek54 said:
Don't worry. It's served me well so far. Half Life 2 is enjoyble for me, PD online and Halo 2 were fun online for me even though I didn't care for their single player modes. I'm looking forward to Ghost Recon, and many other FPS's in the future. I'll like some and dislike some based on my take on their AI, story, multi-player etc. I'll even play the eventual Black 2 and hopefully they will have improved it enough for me by then to no longer think it's an average experience
Gek54 said:
You get no real advantage by shooting through that door versus walking up and pressing a button and the door falls down. Or mentally using magic powers in the game and wishing the door down. Or by having your character enter an animation and kick the door down. The door isn't a puzzle.
Now some of the bits where you shoot through the wall actually are true gameplay mechanics. Of course Black isn't the first game to do this either but at least I agree it's a true mechanic.
Theoretically I suppose shooting bits through the door and then shooting the guy on the other side of the door through those bits could be considered a gameplay mechanic. I didn't do that in the game as it was never really a benefit or needed but in that sense and probably only in that sense could it be considered a real gameplay mechanic.
You still have to enter that door however. Shooting a door solely to open it when that is your only option is not by itself a gameplay mechanic. It's simply the path you go through.
From the very begining of the game you can not advanced until you figure out that you need to blow the door down, PUZZLE. Later on you have the option of either blowing a door down to a room or blowing a hole in the wall, both have their advantages and disadvantages.
Oh its not? Dr. Davidson seems to dissagree.
"I use the term gameplay to describe and define the mechanics of interactions within which a game enables players to engage and progress through the game. Gameplay is how players experience and interact with the gaming situation, the "combination of ends, means, rules, equipment, and manipulative action" required to engage the game (Eskelinen). The gameplay of a game is the interactive process players go through to reach the goal of the game (Federoff). It is through gameplay that players act toward an end, or as Greg Costikyan puts it, the gameplay of games requires decision-making and management of resources in pursuit of a goal"
- Drew Davidson, Ph.D
Any interaction you have with a game is part of the mechanics, quit trying to refute this fact. There is no such distinction as "true mechanics".
See how dumb that sounds.
Oh its not? Dr. Davidson seems to dissagree.
"I use the term gameplay to describe and define the mechanics of interactions within which a game enables players to engage and progress through the game. Gameplay is how players experience and interact with the gaming situation, the "combination of ends, means, rules, equipment, and manipulative action" required to engage the game (Eskelinen). The gameplay of a game is the interactive process players go through to reach the goal of the game (Federoff). It is through gameplay that players act toward an end, or as Greg Costikyan puts it, the gameplay of games requires decision-making and management of resources in pursuit of a goal"
- Drew Davidson, Ph.D
Any interaction you have with a game is part of the mechanics, quit trying to refute this fact. There is no such distinction as "true mechanics".
gigamex said:
See how dumb that sounds.
The Faceless Master
Member
shooting a door is as much of a gaming mechanic as opening a door with a button or key or walking up to automatic doors and they open...
metropolis
Banned
just starting playing this game. it's a fun shooter and the graphics seem to look very good. they are "more fun" to look at than call of duty 360 although that technically has better graphics i'm sure.
the worst thing about this game though is those terrible awful cheesy cutscenes with the gruffy voice actors boring me with that plot that i am supposed to care about. the trying so so so hard to be cool editing makes me laugh at it even more than i already would!
the worst thing about this game though is those terrible awful cheesy cutscenes with the gruffy voice actors boring me with that plot that i am supposed to care about. the trying so so so hard to be cool editing makes me laugh at it even more than i already would!
Zombie James
Banned
This game definitely suffers from the "OMG, i just shot you 20 fucking times and you're not dead yet!" syndrome. Ugh, what a pain.
Zombie James
Banned
Wario64 said:
Not really, considering only shotguns and grenades can do it (and the rocket launcher i'd assume, though that'd be a waste). I'd be nice if i could just shoot a door near the lock region and melee it down...
_leech_ said:
Now that makes me wonder, is it possible to actually get stuck in the game? What happens if you ran out of grenades and can't find a shotgun or RPG? Hmmmmm...
I can't believe we're actually arguing if shooting down a door is intrinsic to the gameplay experience. You're just shooting a goddamn door. Maybe if shooting the door was part of a puzzle, it's something worth talking about. But if you're just shooting it cause it's in your damn way, then who the hell cares
I don't "get" the secondary objectives. I'll walk over a red document that I barely noticed and it'll say, "YOU FOUND THE TERRORIST'S PLANS TO POISON THE LA WATER SUPPLY." So what? It might have well have been a gold banana or a jig saw piece. It doesn't effect the gameplay in any way. I knew Black was about old school game play, but I thought we had advanced beyond this sort of thing.
Also bad guys should die about 80% sooner. I've had baddies get up after being shot with a shotgun point blank.
Also bad guys should die about 80% sooner. I've had baddies get up after being shot with a shotgun point blank.
Zaxxon said:
The worst thing about secondary objectives is that they become a pain in the ass on hard of black ops difficulty, since you HAVE to complete all of them in black ops. They serve no purpose to the game but to make it tedious and making it into a collect-a-thon. I think Criterion is too fixated on the way Burnout is structured (making a bunch of side objectives and let the player accomplish them if they wish). Only problem here is that these secondary objectives are actually a requirement to complete the game, unless you play it on easy difficulty
OK then here is the info about secondary objectives.
Sure, they are things to collect.
But what you miss is how they are all part of the overall tone and vibe of the game.
The idea behind Black is that the whole thing is believable, credible and real.
This is not a game set in science fiction. Nor is it based on a known war setting, it is based in a present day setting.
You can google almost all of the secondary objectives, and see that they are almost all set in reality - real espionage and stuff based around the real world of Black.
So that's stuff to do with 'extraordindary rendition' , secret underground prisons in Eastern Europe (where the last level is set|) and stuff based around real current terrorist activity.
As the game is set present day, current events are not black or white. And there's two sides to every story. The game was written over the course of last year and it's been amazing to see how current events have caught up with some of our fiction.
It's funny how I've read a lot that people don't find the story original. It was actually inspired from seeing the trial of John Walker Lindh on television. The game is very overt is what it sets out to do. I suppose the downside of that is that everyone immediately thinks the story is secondary to the experience.
I've read all the moaning about the cutscenes being unskippable. Well, it's not as if the game has some huge amount of 'Metal Gear' cutscenes. From start to end, there are only sixteen minutes of cutscene. And you can't skip them the first time you encounter them. I want you to watch them. It's part of the experience of the game.
Intel objectives are things based around what known terrorists have done or thought to have done - stuff based around what the 9/11 or 7/77 bombers had done.
Blackmail objectives are things that we would find about our own dirty laundry - sensitive things that we might like to cover up, so there is stuff there about Camp X-Ray, and various US covert activities.
The rest of them are nods and references to our favourite TV shows and movies - so look out for the nods to 24, Alias, Terminator and even The A-Team.
Sure, they are things to collect.
But what you miss is how they are all part of the overall tone and vibe of the game.
The idea behind Black is that the whole thing is believable, credible and real.
This is not a game set in science fiction. Nor is it based on a known war setting, it is based in a present day setting.
You can google almost all of the secondary objectives, and see that they are almost all set in reality - real espionage and stuff based around the real world of Black.
So that's stuff to do with 'extraordindary rendition' , secret underground prisons in Eastern Europe (where the last level is set|) and stuff based around real current terrorist activity.
As the game is set present day, current events are not black or white. And there's two sides to every story. The game was written over the course of last year and it's been amazing to see how current events have caught up with some of our fiction.
It's funny how I've read a lot that people don't find the story original. It was actually inspired from seeing the trial of John Walker Lindh on television. The game is very overt is what it sets out to do. I suppose the downside of that is that everyone immediately thinks the story is secondary to the experience.
I've read all the moaning about the cutscenes being unskippable. Well, it's not as if the game has some huge amount of 'Metal Gear' cutscenes. From start to end, there are only sixteen minutes of cutscene. And you can't skip them the first time you encounter them. I want you to watch them. It's part of the experience of the game.
Intel objectives are things based around what known terrorists have done or thought to have done - stuff based around what the 9/11 or 7/77 bombers had done.
Blackmail objectives are things that we would find about our own dirty laundry - sensitive things that we might like to cover up, so there is stuff there about Camp X-Ray, and various US covert activities.
The rest of them are nods and references to our favourite TV shows and movies - so look out for the nods to 24, Alias, Terminator and even The A-Team.
I've been playing Black since Friday, I tend to play 1 mission a day, they take me at least an hour, the assylum one last night took me 1hr 15 mins. So for me play length isn't much of an issue, I wouldn't try and complete this in one day anyway.
Impressions: this game is a revolution in FPS look and feel. The guns sounds are incredible, not just your gun, but your enemies guns, and the way bullets sound when they come close. Sound overall is also amazing, ambient effects what not. The gun lighting effects and particle effects are amazing. The way the gun looks is perfect, gun animations are brill, and the way it moves is perfect. The destructable environments are ace. Crouch behind a wreck of a car and watch as the car jiggles from enemy bullets that riddle it, and the sound of this is amazing; or a fire fight in a shower block/washroom where the porcelain slowly disintegrates; or in dorms with plaster walls that you can blast through, and use to flank enemies; and doors that you can blast open - yes that feature is important because anything else is ludicrous. Gameplay, its an intense shooter, AI is credible, but not genre beating (however they can give you a nasty surpise as they can and will follow you). All the controls are nice, DS can do FPS. You are lead down a path, some open-ish environments and some ace settings. Gameplay is solid, but it doesn't have the brilliance of Halo 1's firefights. But it is a more intense FPS than anything else I've played, the first FPS for me to convey how visceral being stuck in an urban firefight like this might actually be. Has anyone mentioned the failinmg health/dying effects, wondrous - seriously something else. This game has supreme style. Every FPS in development now should look at how Black has portrayed the look and sound of FPS's and take notes, anything substantially less in future won't be tolerated - from that point at least its a seminal game.
Also I've noticed european reviewers are all over this game: Edge, GamesTM, Eurogamer have all given this cracking reviews. I concur, its something new, style is important, look at Ico and Rez, it can transform a game. If you can, and do beat 7 hour games in a day then go out and rent it, else buy it, its important.
IMO
Impressions: this game is a revolution in FPS look and feel. The guns sounds are incredible, not just your gun, but your enemies guns, and the way bullets sound when they come close. Sound overall is also amazing, ambient effects what not. The gun lighting effects and particle effects are amazing. The way the gun looks is perfect, gun animations are brill, and the way it moves is perfect. The destructable environments are ace. Crouch behind a wreck of a car and watch as the car jiggles from enemy bullets that riddle it, and the sound of this is amazing; or a fire fight in a shower block/washroom where the porcelain slowly disintegrates; or in dorms with plaster walls that you can blast through, and use to flank enemies; and doors that you can blast open - yes that feature is important because anything else is ludicrous. Gameplay, its an intense shooter, AI is credible, but not genre beating (however they can give you a nasty surpise as they can and will follow you). All the controls are nice, DS can do FPS. You are lead down a path, some open-ish environments and some ace settings. Gameplay is solid, but it doesn't have the brilliance of Halo 1's firefights. But it is a more intense FPS than anything else I've played, the first FPS for me to convey how visceral being stuck in an urban firefight like this might actually be. Has anyone mentioned the failinmg health/dying effects, wondrous - seriously something else. This game has supreme style. Every FPS in development now should look at how Black has portrayed the look and sound of FPS's and take notes, anything substantially less in future won't be tolerated - from that point at least its a seminal game.
Also I've noticed european reviewers are all over this game: Edge, GamesTM, Eurogamer have all given this cracking reviews. I concur, its something new, style is important, look at Ico and Rez, it can transform a game. If you can, and do beat 7 hour games in a day then go out and rent it, else buy it, its important.
IMO
alexward said:
Its great to see a dev come here and give their reasoning behind certain game designs decisions.
My problem with the secondary objectives are that the items are obscurely placed around the level and they do not reward the player with any special insight to what all is really going on in the story. Its just, "Hey you found some blue prints." Great, does this tell me anything that will affect the gameplay or story in any significant way?...not that I could tell.
They need to placed in more believable conditions and locations. It would be nice if they provide hints to side routes or tell you were certain things are hidden.
So...they are related to story.
They are hidden around the level so you have to explore to find them.
Black is a game where we're not telling you everything.
It's for the player to discover.
Of course, if you want to ignore it all, you can.
You have to look at Black with regards to narrative like you would look at something like Lost. It's a starting point, it's not saying everything in one go.
Regardless of who digs the game or not, you have to accept that it's a new and original game, and that's what there should be more of in gaming.
They are hidden around the level so you have to explore to find them.
Black is a game where we're not telling you everything.
It's for the player to discover.
Of course, if you want to ignore it all, you can.
You have to look at Black with regards to narrative like you would look at something like Lost. It's a starting point, it's not saying everything in one go.
Regardless of who digs the game or not, you have to accept that it's a new and original game, and that's what there should be more of in gaming.
BunnyLifeguard
Member
Gek54 said:
At first i was disappointed (though i never believed the hype anyway), but now i love it. In fact statements, that it is the Burnout of FPS, are true. Black is about the feeling of shooting a weapon, and the result of it. And in that way, it indeed is the best FPS today.
Made worse than necessary by the "6 hours through the whole game"-thing. But shame on EA.
alexward said:
I do like how you are not telling us everything but its to the point were you are not telling us enough. IIRC in first level you destroy a
laptop containing pictures from "Lake Placid"
Lake Placid
Maybe I need to play through the game again and pay more attention to all the info from the secondary objects so I can better peice the story together. And unless I missed the option, not being able to review the secondary findings makes it even harder to piece anything together.
I think Black is a very good game, a solid 8/10, but not because of it's story or storytelling.alexward said:
Retrospective storytelling does not, in my opinion, work well in a game. It removes player engagement due to the fact that the events have already happened and there will be no changing the course of things.
Regarding the secondary objectives, I see critical design faults. Due to the items being scattered around the level with no clues or reason for their existence, the player is stuck having to explore every nook and cranny while playing on hard level. Otherwise you risk missing an objective and having to replay the entire level, because you can't backtrack.
Also while the secondary objectives contain recognizable pop culture references and things related to current events, they are just one-liners that feel completely irrelevant. And why would I want to destroy evidence of torture at camp X-ray? I'd love to upload the photos to Amnesty international, ffs. The game forces the player to a Rambo-esque black/white viewpoint.
The great action and excellent look/feel of the game completely make up for the stupid secondary objectives and non-engaging story, so kudos for making a very good game.
Wario64 said:
Additionally the secondary objectives are actually fun and some of them require skill in Burnout. That isn't the case in black where randomly just firing off grenades into any and every spot is just as likely to yield them. It's like seeing a random rock on the ground, picking it up and then completing an objective for the picking up the "Magic Rock of Iraq". The game devolved into Banjo Kazooie at that point but without the reward incentive. If they wanted to do something like this imo, it should have been structured in such a way that at a minimum getting these things involved some sort of leveling up aspect that benefitted your character so at least there was a real motivation.
Keio said:
I agree. Especially the way it was handled here. It also leads to a "talking heads" syndrome that lends a sameness to every cutscene. Cutscenes generally tend to focus best as a reward where you are seeing something dynamic or an interactive bit where the cutscenes propel the story.
They try to propel the story in black but it's not important because you quickly realize the story is solely experienced through the gameplay so they feel unncessary. Instead they just function as a level brief but without any real sort of weight.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Yea, the secondary objectives feel like discovering coins. Very out of place in a game like this. I don't enjoy the exploration because getting the secondary information adds so little to the game on any level. I felt like I was investigating nooks and crannies to get some random number, that was the extent of their importance. A mini cut scene or something meatier would have at least made it feel relevant.
Asking the player to look around the game world and smell the roses is not enough reward in itself. I can imagine in one of the LAST MINUTE Black design meetings the question popped up, "We have a serious problem, the game is too short and there is no reason to explore these massive levels. How can we make the game last longer and get the player to fully experience all our hard work we put into the graphics and level design? I know, lets just hide random shit all around the level and call them secondary objectives."
Even a simple menu text list or radio transmition saying, "Find and destroy the laptop containing such and such information.", would have added much more incentive to having to look around for that crap, espeically if it doesnt add any plot twists or side story. As it is, I go into a level having no idea as to why I would want to destroy the laptops, just that "Blowed up laptop is goooood".
Hopefully alex has an open mind and is able to be a little more imaginative for Black 2.
Even a simple menu text list or radio transmition saying, "Find and destroy the laptop containing such and such information.", would have added much more incentive to having to look around for that crap, espeically if it doesnt add any plot twists or side story. As it is, I go into a level having no idea as to why I would want to destroy the laptops, just that "Blowed up laptop is goooood".
Hopefully alex has an open mind and is able to be a little more imaginative for Black 2.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
alexward said:
Wait, so a derivative, pointless, arbitrary tack-on for extra time is validated because they're kind-of real-life? In that case, the Triforce hunt in Wind Waker was brilliant because the Triforce is awesome and legendary. It's cool to add neat ambient things like that, but shouldn't they be placed better? And shouldn't there be more to the hard mode than collecting every single one of them?
alexward said:
This description applies way more to something like RE4 than it does to Black.
Dont have much time to make this post but I agree with what Keio says. It's cool to hear the reasons why these secondary objectives are included in the game, and I respect that...but game design wise, it didn't really seem to make sense to me. It just pissed me off even more when levels had to be replayed just cause you miss 1 stupid little objective. At least give the option to retry at the last checkpoint instead of playing the entire level
Pimpbaa
Slop Inspector
Holy crap, this is the worst game I've played in a long while! Jeez. Criterion to do to the FPS genre what they did to racing? WHAT!? Black to bring back the fun to first person shooters? WHAT!?!? BAH! Boring derivative piece of crap! I'm angry from only renting it, I can't imagine how I would feel if I bought it.