Train of Midnight
Banned
Totally understandable, no disagreements there. Just a dispute of methods and results.
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Black Lives Matter shuts down a Bernie Sanders rally
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Totally understandable, no disagreements there. Just a dispute of methods and results.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
Pulling another one where the argument is Bernie's a racist because he doesn't consider Argentina an awesome example of socialism better than Scandanavia, even.
There's people out there saying that you don't know if Bernie is going to change his mind or not on anything he says, but Hillary is solid and firm in her beliefs.
Their reasoning? Bernie changed parties a few times since the 60s, but Hillary's been a Democrat this whole time.
No mention from these people about whether or not their stances on issues have changed.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
See, we were having such a decent time smoothing things over, and now you had to do this.
No, liberals are not the enemy. I'm a fucking liberal (I've already said this, and that I plan on supporting Bernie in the primary). But did many white liberals verbally attack and harass many black activists this weekend, including myself? Yes, by the droves.
There is a clear problem. A long running historical problem, but I'm not going to go by this black and white logic.
Relentless 757
Member
Pulling another one where the argument is Bernie's a racist because he doesn't consider Argentina an awesome example of socialism better than Scandanavia, even.
Ah yes, the Cuban Revolution that lead to hundreds of thousands of Cubans who wanted to escape the oppressive regime. That Cuban Revolution.
I don't know too much about socialism in Argentina, or other Latin American countries, so I can't comment.
Train of Midnight
Banned
Pulling another one where the argument is Bernie's a racist because he doesn't consider Argentina an awesome example of socialism better than Scandanavia, even.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvSLlK5QmDc
Do these people even have google?
In that video he only talks about Latin America. Why no mention of Europe? Is he anti-Europe? Why is Sanders so anti-Europe?
I don't, I think Bernie needs to increase his security so that random people claiming to be BLM can't push him off stage BUT at the same time engage and embrace legitimate BLM leaders with his campaign.
As for Marrisa Jenea, I don't think the views of outside agitators is in line with the BLM movement. Asking the black community to respond or defend her views is not fair and doesn't serve anyone's interests.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I don't think it was the most tactful way to get a point across either, but that doesn't change the fact that many people are skeptical of promises made by politicians and wanted to push Bernie to more clearly acknowledge racism as its own problem rather than a symptom of economic disparity. When some supporters treat critiques of a candidate as something that has to be stomped out in an aggressive way, it does nothing to convince those who are as yet unconvinced to vote for a candidate.
I think the BLM movement, those who are wary of Bernie anyway, are essentially asking him to prove himself to be the ideal candidate and not just the less-than-ideal-but-better-than-the-alternatives candidate in regard to racial injustice. As ambassadors of the campaign, as it were, we do ourselves no favors to address people's grievances with "Well if you don't like it then you don't know what's best for you". It's important to be accommodating to those yet unconvinced, regardless of their hostility when expressing concerns.
And I don't think you're a Stan. I just think it's important to recognize the importance of solidarity without this "only if they do it first" approach. As Bernie's campaign said, "we stand together". It's important to act like it and not just say it.
Agreed. I've been guilty of everything you said in that post. It took looking past my anger to realize I was just pushing people away.
reggieandTFE
Member
Are you talking about being attacked on Neogaf?
I'm pretty sure he was taking about Twitter.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Who attacked you here? You were criticized including by me...but I didn't see anything out of bounds.
The only harassing I saw was the two women who interrupted Sanders in such a childish, ignorant fashion.
LaserBuddha
Member
As werks said above, if this was Outside Agitators who seemed to have simply stated a plan to form a Seattle branch of BLM, and her group does not represent the views of BLM, then isnt about 90% of this discussion about defending or criticizing BLM moot?
People are playing devils advocate and saying "well he may be the last candidate on the list to deserve the criticism of the protest but they are all fair game". Well if the leader of this group is an extreme christian Palin supporter from what I'm reading, are we sure we know why he was really targeted? I'm not talking conspiracies, but someone would those ties seems like they would benefit from harming the campaign of someone on the other far side of the political spectrum. You might say she could foresee he would refocus his message to his own benefit in reaction to this, but if we are talking about a Palin supporter we are not talking about the sharpest knife.
Another poster said the same thing. He was taking the other position though: that either Bernie does a better job at handling the protesters or he gets more security to make himself look better. As if optics was the issue here. It's completely missing the point. It can be the case that this protest was unreasonable and they have an otherwise good cause. It can be the case that the actions that these two people did aren't necessarily 100% actions I agree with-- but ultimately it's not the worst thing that could happen in this race. The only thing I'm worried about is that certain people are just looking for someone who is rhetorically on their side; we've seen in this thread a lot of unwillingness to acknowledge that Bernie has in fact addressed their issues and that they just didn't know about it. And protests themselves should be more inclusive, including attacking Republican candidates.
Earlier, I thought by attacking Sanders they'd only be helping the mainstream corporate candidate. But I don't think in the long run it damages Bernie at all -- it makes him a stronger candidate if he addresses them in a way they find preferable. I also do think it pushes Hillary to at least speak as if she cares about these issues which in itself is a good thing.
Venezuela's been a wonderland. All nations aspire to its current situation.
By what part? They got Bernie to write up a 10 page report that should have been taken for granted based on his political history and the "harmful white liberals" are completely polarized from the movement.
I support criminal justice reform, but anything said under the BLM label I'm not taking seriously anymore because of events like this and others.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
And other social media platforms. And outside of it.
LaserBuddha
Member
Well Im readong that this wasnt BLM but was OA, but the same people are defending this as BLM so I dont know.
Like I posted a minute ago. I still think it was a waste of time to go after Bernie in particular. But if it gets people to talk about these issues -- then I think it's a good thing overall. You're also lumping the actions of these two individuals who have yet to actually form a chapter in Seattle with a national movement demanding people respect black lives. They are not a homogenous group.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Sorry for the confusion, I was addressing how the debate over this has unfolded online, not necessarily how people feel about the Palin supporter girl specifically. Obviously, she seems to be beyond convincing. When talking to other people about this, though, I don't think it will do Bernie any favors to be combative or dismissive, as some have been. It's important to understand first and react second, not just react. I think that applies in all circumstances, not just here. If we're confident in Bernie's merits as a leader, there's no need to shoot down critiques or inquiries as though we're insecure.
For all the wrong reasons, nobody is really speaking highly of the movement because they harassed him.
Honestly speaking though, I don't know how Bernie could have handled the situation any better. He certainly handled better than the last time.
I don't see how that's the whole movement's fault. It sounds more like other people's fault. And by getting people to talk about these issues: I meant the candidates like O'Malley, Bernie and Hillary.
Absolutely. No matter what the intentions of outside agitators were, obviously there was a weakness in Bernie's campaign that opened him up to that sort of attack. I think the swift boat attacks on john Kerry proves how easy it is to turn a strength into weakness and dominate the narrative. It was a net positive for Bernie to be exposed to attacks on his strengths early on and tweak his campaign to address those attacks.
Im glad Bernie made some changes and I hope they continue while on the road, he is a better candidate because of it, maybe the democratic party in general need to be put through this because if this thread is any indication, the attitude that minorities should shut the fuck up and be thankful allies is an actual thing in 2015.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Oh, I think Bernie himself handled it fine. Imagine if Bernie handled it like some online have, though, and shouted over her saying "Don't you see I'm trying to help you people!?!?"
He would be rightfully catching a lot of flak for it.
While it may be unfair, a candidate's supporters reflect on his or her campaign, so it's important to treat people with respect, listen to them, react calmly, avoid insulting them, etc. Just as one would if they themselves were the candidate.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
When has America ever really spoken highly of black people who want to spark change?
"I marched with MLK." Would probably be the worst response -- and yet a lot of people on twitter seem to go for that one.
zero shift
Banned
I feel that at times the scariest thing to many black activists (and their general supporters) isn't the continuation of racist and unequal policies, but rather them succeeding. After decades of fighting to have things like police brutality, segregationist policies, and discrimination to be cemented in American legislation, what then? What is the next task from them to cover after completing that objective? So when candidates come along that actually support these policies, it may be a little uneasy for them to agree. A "No True Scotsman" trope is churned out. Similar things happen with the far left in this country as well. Winning seems to be the biggest fear of all at times.
So here's a fun quote from the website of the group disrupting Sanders events, Outside Agitators.
So, the Democratic party is a threat to black people because... Black people are mostly Democrats? So, black people aren't capable of deciding what's in their best interest regarding politics?
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Yeah. Like, I get that people want to make an argument in favor of their candidate and have a right to do so, but it's important to consider that if you're overly emotional, aggressive, naive to the concerns of those you're addressing and so forth, the best service you can offer is to watch quietly from the sidelines. It does the campaign no favors to play keyboard warrior and defend your castle without realizing you aren't supposed to defend, you're supposed to invite people in.
They've already talked about it, several times before. O'Malley already had a plan up on his site before this happened, Bernie has talked about it at several events, and I'm sure Hillary has.
I did, I have put my neck on the line in the predominantly white rural area I live in. Like I said I still fully support criminal justice reform as one of the top issues that needs to be addressed...but I'm not going to support any protests or argue for BLM anymore I just look like a fool to people doing this.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
How about "Go vote for Trump. See how that works out."?
Jeevesmeister
Banned
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150810/PC1002/150819976/1023/hillary-leads-on-racial-justice
Fuck it, this is the greatest election of all time. I love it so much. Yes, the woman who released the photo of Obama in traditional Somali garb in 2008 and urge her husband to interrupt his '92 campaign in order to execute a mentally ill black man is the anti-racist hero of our times.
edit: whoops, forgot the link!
Train of Midnight
Banned
I'd legit like to see some citation above.
[edit] I mean for the Obama garb / '92 execution
[edit] I mean for the Obama garb / '92 execution
Jeevesmeister
Banned
Fixed, with added bonus content:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkNSwibJQjk
Hillary Clinton will be our first black President.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkNSwibJQjk
Hillary Clinton will be our first black President.
Pulling another one where the argument is Bernie's a racist because he doesn't consider Argentina an awesome example of socialism better than Scandanavia, even.
Holy shit, that's funny. Sanders was aiming for the higher echelon of democratic socialist societies. It had absolutely nothing to do with whiteness.
If we are the so-called best nation on earth, should we not be taking inspiration from places accomplishing better things than us? Scandinavia, Denmark, and Switzerland are all empirical locations where equality and quality of life are some of the highest in the world. From what I know of positions in Switzerland, I'd even consider that to be the most humane society on this earth with many policies they have.
They're one of the few nations on this earth that you are given a right to end your life, in a world that puts people on probation for their suffering. If only the rest of the world was lucky to not have evocated concepts - laws - in the way of themselves.
This Week in Blackness is interviewing one of the women live now
http://thisweekinblackness.com/listen/
http://thisweekinblackness.com/listen/
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Well, she answered both the Hillary and Palin stuff. And is an even more interesting person in my eyes.
She doubles down that the crowd are white supremacists racists. uhh.. I believe she also mentioned her parents are tea partyers? Correct me if I'm wrong.
What did she say about it? I started listening midway.
She did, her mother is right. She talked to them the night before and said "We don't understand your politics, but we support you"
So, I guess that explains the whole Sarah Palin business. I imagine she was pretty young back then.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
"Anyone who hears me say that (pretty sure it was either about her calling the crowd racist or saying her life matters) and thinks about their feelings first is a White supremacist"
Bold statement. And I don't know if I agree with it, but there is a problem if their feelings come first.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I think that the ridiculous part about it is that people are trying to dig up shocking dirt on her by saying "as a teen, her political views were influenced by her parents!"
Which takes me to a related tangent of how much I can't stand when people criticize or insult black people for voting for the right. I think I'm slightly critical of anyone who votes to the right (just because I revile the Republican politicians running), but it's like black people don't have the right to make that mistake like white people do.
That's a bunch of crap. If a woman called you a sexist, and you thought that you weren't sexist, then you are a sexist???? That's one hell of an argument.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I think, even if the accusation of white supremacy is hyperbolic, it is important to not let your feelings allow you to lose sight of more important things.
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