A Link to the Past
Banned
But isn't it true? In a negotiation, you ask for more than you expect so you get what you expect. If you ask for what you expect, then you should expect to be dissatisfied.
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Black Lives Matter shuts down a Bernie Sanders rally
- Thread starter soleil
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But isn't it true? In a negotiation, you ask for more than you expect so you get what you expect. If you ask for what you expect, then you should expect to be dissatisfied.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I disagree. Racism was the result of economic persecution from its very genesis, as a means of justifying exploiting African labour and legitimising imperialist conquest of Africa. You had a continent of peoples without the means to resist Europeans, but even then their treatment was considered barbaric by many - there were various Papal bulls indicting treatment of African slave labour. The economic need of key wealth-holding classes to justify this treatment led them create the foundations of what we recognise as modern racism.
Train of Midnight
Banned
This isn't a pawn shop. In civil rights you stand for what's right and you work to achieve it. If you exaggerate your demands you dilute your message, you turn away those on the fringe who might side with you, and as a result you get nothing accomplished.
If you ignore the solutions that can make a tangible, meaningful differences in the lives of those you're working to help because you don't think they go far enough, then you'd do a better job staying home.
Yet it does get you results
PhoenixDark
Banned
What does this mean though. A branch of the federal government is not going to be created to address police on the state level - let's get that out the way first. This is a state issue, the president's power is limited here. But the things that can be done on the state level don't really solve the issue as much as they attempt to deal with symptoms. Yes let's have civilian review boards and body cams. Let's elect prosecutors who aren't in the pocket of police. Let's demand police take certain classes/tests on use of lethal force in order to receive federal money. Let's demilitarize the police. I fully support all of that.
But ultimately none of that addresses the fact that the police are still trying to police a killing field that is marred by drugs and high crime. That type of environment leads to trigger happy, scared, and angry police. Body cams and review boards don't fix that. Police will continue to kill people - either through genuine accidents, or through malice.
My view is that ending the war on drugs and attempting to improve the economic conditions of inner cities would lower crime and increase the living conditions of people. Which means you have fewer cops on edge. Which means we can attempt to have some community outreach between cops and neighborhoods.
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There is no easy fix here. Black people will continue to be killed by cops. Even more black people will continue being killed by fellow black people. The system is working as it was designed to work. The goal should be to change that system - it'll probably never be erased, but there are ways to make it less effective. And most of those ways are socioeconomic.
To pull his off you had to convince the majority that Africans were subhuman.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
when has Bernie oppressed black people and black causes? Name 1 issue where Bernie is not and has not been aligned with??
When have Bernie try to silence them???
You disrupted a rally and now mad that Bernie didnt just give you the podium? THATS the "silencing?"
Bernie and his supporters are the enemy of Black issue cuz they didnt give a group of the protesters the time of day after they try to embarrass him? How small minded are we gonna get here. This shit is confusing and i cant blame Bernie lol. like "why the fuck these people are yelling at me, im agreeing with em"
I think both are needed. The idealism keeps the vision on-course so we don't lose sight of everything. The pragmatism gets us there.
Idealism without pragmatism gets nowhere, and pragmatism without idealism takes us wherever the rich pay for us to go.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I'm not demonizing it. I'm pointing out that many of the alleged goals, as detailed in my post, are socialist in nature. Yet the one candidate who garners the most of their scorn is the only socialist in the damn race. Who mirrors their views on a host of issues. It makes no sense.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
The best part is he literally did give them the podium.
In any case, he came out looking like a better candidate and his campaign team was strengthen as a result of all this. I wouldn't call that scorn.
Fair enough, I'll admit that I've been fairly emotional in my responses in this thread as well and at times been more worried about being right as opposed to having a constructive dialog.
I do agree more with maninthemirros take of socioeconomic issues are the root cause that leads to black people being treated like second class citizens. That doesn't mean I disagree with your assertion that police misconduct needs to be stopped, I just don't think we will see real change without economically uplifting the black community.
I haven't engaged you in the fact that there is a subset of Bernie supporter have been more than willing to abandon the black community based on our disagreement because what you said is true. If questioning Bernie leads to some of his supporters walking away from the black community, they were never allies anyway.
At least in my case, the defensiveness comes from the fear that Bernie doesn't have the funding or the political machine backing him to swiftly pivot and flood the campaign with his message. It also bothers me a bit that Bernie is getting hit so hard on a issue that Hillary has a deplorable records of. But that's politics I guess.
The last point I want to make is that I do have some concerns about the protestors in Seattle. I find it hard to believe that a former palin supporter, hardcore Christian activist that dismiss economic issues as "weirdo" is truly aligned with BLM. That isn't a dismissal of BLM but one of the unfortunate disadvantage of a truly decentralized movement.
Anyway, I'll try to be a less combative poster from here on out. I don't think the level of heated conversation is really helping anyone.
jakonovski
Member
Sorry, I did not mean to say you are doing that. I'm just trying to figure how it's possible for such a nonsensical situation to exist, and the only answer is propaganda. Making opposition to socialism often reflexive, even for those who should be sympathetic.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I think a lot of the anger is at how his supporters, when the chips are down, have put forth the position that if you don't find Bernie to be the ideal candidate you can go fuck yourselves. They've done it in paragraphs rather than a simple sentence, but that's the message coming across. That's not a great way to align oneself with causes one claims to agree with.
Edit- I'd add that the history of the black electorate and democratic politicians is peppered with a lot of "be patient, you'll get your turn" and those supportive of BLM are tired of hearing the flowery promises that never come to fruition. It's a matter of wanting to be as certain as possible that this will not be how Bernie deals with the grievances of the movement, and the way a lot of supporters have downplayed or criticized BLM does very little to instill confidence that the "Bernie first, BLM second" supporters will be allies in holding Bernie accountable should he fail to perform.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I think you make a good point in saying that hurting people economically is a tool of oppression. I think that's true, especially in the long run, but if we're talking about practical ways of going at the root of the problem; then it's not going to be done via the police. Which is what I was trying to say. I was getting more at the specific problem of systemic violence against black people and why more accountable police doesn't even scratch the surface. More accountable police would not solve the issue of poverty, education, unemployment, the wage disparity, etc. Those issues that keep black people down and promote a never ending cycle of oppression. Until we solve those issues; I don't see how progress can be made at all.
Here's a good read: https://solidarity-us.org/bernieblm
freeofgreed
Member
This thread has gotten a lot bigger since the last time i checked. Coming in pretty neutral on the situation. Any good articles or posts that i should read on the situation besides the op? Preferably from both sides.
Most important thing is how it impacted Bernie moving forward.
His race-specific platform: https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/
His hire: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-press-secretary_55c77941e4b0f1cbf1e54fec
His rally in Portland later on the next day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ2K8R76cD4
Very smart of him.
His people ought to meet with BLM organizers and discuss how he can better address their concerns.
As imperfect as both BLM and Sanders have been, they're moving forward together.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Bernie is responsible for making sure Bernie gets elected.
freeofgreed
Member
Thanks!
LegendofLex
Member
While this is all hugely positive and meaningful, TBH, I'm not sure this couldn't have been accomplished simply by BLM reaching out (even reaching out aggressively) to his campaign to build a more proactive, less reactive alliance. If anything, this just encourages the perpetuation of the cycle where the only way to make meaningful progress on minority issues is angry appropriation..
Of course, since the strategy seems to be working, I can't fault them for using it. And it's certainly true that the "angry activism" approach wasn't specifically conjured up to target Bernie's campaign - it's a reaction to generations of racist bullshit. Lord knows there's plenty to be angry about.
Come to think of it, I think the changes Bernie has made is a way saying the BLM movement did indeed make a positive difference, even if inelegantly. Is that worthy of a new thread/discussion? A discussion of Bernie's platform moving forward, thanks to the BLM movement? Or would that just devolve into arguing over how it got there?
Jeevesmeister
Banned
And America is far less progressive than deluded thinkpiece consumers have led themselves to believe.
Issue by issue, Bernie's policies poll with majority support way more often than not. Facts are not delusion. Denial of such facts, however, is.
freeofgreed
Member
I think that's fine. This thread has gotten way too big and as i'm looking back on some stuff its been going through so many different directions. So a newer one focused on this specific instance would be good.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
I don't know if it's worthy of a new thread, but it's very nice to see.
And thanks for the mostly calm responses everyone. This has been a particularly rough weekend, and people I thought I was cool with (many white progressives) used what happened to snap at me and others. Thus, my responses have been very emotional.
Also, about the South Lawn article. There's a potential legal/ethical situation with it going on about on twitter, and the politics they've used in other articles has been pretty problematic. Especially Doug Williams (and if it wasn't for his barb against Beyonce, he would have been able to hide it in that article).
And thanks for the mostly calm responses everyone. This has been a particularly rough weekend, and people I thought I was cool with (many white progressives) used what happened to snap at me and others. Thus, my responses have been very emotional.
Also, about the South Lawn article. There's a potential legal/ethical situation with it going on about on twitter, and the politics they've used in other articles has been pretty problematic. Especially Doug Williams (and if it wasn't for his barb against Beyonce, he would have been able to hide it in that article).
Jeevesmeister
Banned
No, TSL is correct in this. ABL has made a great deal of coin defending the major banking establishments from the poor people they've foreclosed on and this is worth noting.
As far as legal situations go, she doxxed a 14 year old.
We just survived 8 years of Bush and Donald Trump is a serious contender for the Presidency.
And that still doesn't negate the polls, which are much more germane to the comment I was responding to.
Train of Midnight
Banned
Is he making any changes to his policies or plans, though? Seems more like a shift in tone to hopefully placate these people so his rallies stop getting hijacked. I feel like if BLM had a more cohesive agenda with some elected representatives to work in partnership with Bernie's campaign, we'd see more of real progress, and less disruption.
But still, I guess they're getting what they wanted. Even if seems less genuine than his day to day routine working for equality. Seems ironic since so many people upset with Bernie were unhappy with his 'lip service' before.
BLM's last protest made a positive difference too. They are getting the candidates to talk about their issues. I just think they're going after the wrong people and by doing so preventing Hillary from going to the left of her position where all she has to do is avoid the protesters.
NickFire
Member
My first two thoughts:
1) Odd definition of "just survived";
2) Perhaps if Bush wasn't regarded as the GOP establishment's favored son, Trump wouldn't be a serious contender.
Not sure why it would seem less genuine. As much as his service from the 60s isn't an excuse to rest on his laurels, it DOES serve as proof of sincerity.
Train of Midnight
Banned
Not even thinking about that, everyone is very clear that they don't care what he did in the 60s. Which is whatever.
This isn't a topic that Bernie has been ignoring until BLM came along. It isn't something he's been ignoring in recent history. He he was in June, before this protest, before the Netroots BLM protest. And this is just a sample of the dozens of clips you can find with 2 minutes on google. So what I see is genuine conviction about the issue, but he's being pushed into making it a talking point to address undue criticism, and that's why for me it feels less genuine.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
I swear. 20k people 6 months before the primary. Go bernie go.
EDIT: And screw youtube for doing copyright claim on sander's offical youtube, even after he got permission to use the song.
EDIT: And screw youtube for doing copyright claim on sander's offical youtube, even after he got permission to use the song.
I don't think it changed his policies, but I'm sure the issue with BLM has made his realize that he needs to get more in touch with the black community. Symone was a good hire, I liked her energy in yesterday's rally.
This argument has been draining for me, the black community had legitimate grievances with his messaging and hopefully they are being addressed. I would much rather have this conversation now and get it sorted out early so that we can move on to substance of his policies.
Hopefully it will strengthen his campaign, prove to the black community that he is a relevant ally and win over their support.
Well, the criticism at first (that he doesn't care about race), was undue, but when that was pointed out by smug Bernie supporters, the criticism quickly evolved to "Oh I knew that. I was just saying he doesn't talk about it enough." And that form of criticism was more due. To which he responded appropriately.
If you believe the concern is genuine, how can it seem less genuine? Just makes no sense.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
feel tha bern.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
Thats what stannis baratheon was going to say, but he thought it was distastful to say while his daughter burned.
So you feel like he's just pandering then? I guess I could see where you coming from with that but he does have a record that shows his sincerity so I don't think its fair to say he's just pandering. I do feel that he's sincere about wanting to do something about racial issues where as I feel the other candidates are just pandering.
Seriously.
Candidate 1. Governor over a state during a time when conditions in its biggest city worsened to the point where eventually, riots happened.
Candidate 2. Has been a huge proponent of "tough on crime" and mass incarceration policies that led to a disproportionately high number of minorities being locked up.
Candidate 3. Been actively fighting for Civil Rights for 50 years.
No one can rest on their laurels because the fight isn't over, but only Candidate 3's record can show sincerity.
SolarPowered
Member
Just wanted to say that this is a great post because it talks about how pervasive these economic, healthcare and school related issues really are. All the body cameras and improvements in government supported public institutions in the world still come down to a band-aid solution if the working poor (Black, Hispanic, White, Asian, etc.) are worn down one day after another by college tuition, healthcare costs, harsh drug laws and embarrassingly low working wages that a single person can't live on, let a lone a small family. If the US government is willing to equip and teach police how to do better, it should be entirely possible that they can properly equip the working poor with the necessary financial, educational and healthcare related tools that the middle class (and above) deserve and use in everyday America.
I hope to God Hillary tackles the these issues with half the enthusiasm that Bernie and his campaign has shown.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
So here's a fun quote from the website of the group disrupting Sanders events, Outside Agitators.
Train of Midnight
Banned
I guess your first sentence is really the crux of my confusion. If it's just his message that you think is lacking, not the policies, then that really makes me upset. Because then you recognize that this man is the best person available to be sitting in the white house to make the most amount of positive change possible in this country. Especially for minorities. So these protesters are disrupting rallies, blowing smoke and making a fuss, when in reality it's not going to amount to any change. It could be hurting his chances just as much as the publicity might be helping him, and in the end these protesters might be liable for hurting what little chance Bernie has.
You could make the argument that BLM's protest has brought more light to their cause, that it will make the issue more centric to further debates and discussions. But they could have had the same result, possibly a much more positive result if they had worked WITH the man, not put pressure against him. Does Bernie seem like the kind of guy who would have turned down the opportunity for a solid relationship in partnership with BLM? In a different situation, those protesters could have been standing side by side with Bernie in solidarity of fighting racism in America, instead of shouting him off the stage.
But in one aspect, I really hope you're right, and I hope we get this relationship ironed out before this election gets serious.
No, I would not say that at all, and maybe "less genuine" was a bad way to word it. But I do feel that it cheapens the message. I only feel that because he's being forced to talk about it, instead of talking about it as he normally would anyway, and it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
LaserBuddha
Member
Likewise, if youre not happy that this fraud of a woman led an interruption to seize the microphone from Bernie (it wasn't enough that it would be given to her, she had to shut him up), then you are a racist and an enemy of BLM. The same shit is being peddled by people on the other side of this discussion. Its either you enthusiastically approve of every single person, event, moment that affiliates itself with BLM, or fuck you. And now this pisspoor excuse for reasoning is being used to characterize people who support Bernie Sanders (nowhere close to the monolithic entity you need it to be) in a negative way.
And absolutely no responsibility has been taken from the countless lies said about what Bernie hasn't said or done publicly that have since been disproven by video links posted in this thread. I see a lot of people continuing to discuss this that have trashed their credibility early in this thread by making claims about Bernie Sanders when they clearly never cared to look into whether what they were making up on the spot was true or not.
But call me a stan or whatever.
I see what you mean, but I think it's just a matter of being asked to put more emphasis on something, when his campaign is still young and his platform still being built.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Well, I mean technically it's not wrong. It does seem to follow kamikaze's logic that liberals are the enemy though.So here's a fun quote from the website of the group disrupting Sanders events, Outside Agitators.
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