Black males most consistently under-performing demographic. What can be done?
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False. A lot of black people agreed with Cosby. He wasn't by any stretch rebuked by black people as a whole. It incited discussion, which I feel was the whole point.
Nor do all black people embrace slum culture. But I'm glad you're finally calling it that.
Again, just soundly untrue. The fact that a few intelligent black men who are proud of their culture are here arguing with you is evidence enough of the contrary.
Also, I can think of several other races that embrace negative culture as a part of their experiences. Again, it's not just black people.
Cruzader said:
Well in alot of cases, now in days it seems like Hispanics do have alot more options than any other race IMO. They are the majority so alot of services and programs are catered to them but I will agree with you alot of African Americans do not use the programs/services available to them.
Also little site note, I kinda dislike the term African American, I normally call myself black. I'm far from being African, especially when I have friends who are from Africa who fit the suit better, sorry just a little petpeeve of mine lol
Measley said:
Also, this is very untrue, Hispanics and white people do this also in regards to their respective races.
royalan said:
Yeah again, I'm not saying that all blacks think that way. In fact many older Black men/women view me as a good Black male role-model.
Yeah I will admit that there are some who "act white" to not be looked down upon but some aren't acting. That's just the way they are.
The whole man made concept of race has caused so many problems and insecurities for many. I know I stated that at random (out of nowhere) but man.. when thinking about the things being said in this thread as well as what I'm learning now in my Asian Studies class, I just have to shake my head that all of this was caused by man wanting to justify the harsh treatment of people that looked different from them. It has been rooted so much that race is viewed by many as biological.
I know I went off in a tangent but it's just sad how much a man made concept has an influence on everyday life of millions.
Agreed. When black people see me and my office, there is almost universally a tinge of impressed approval (Even though the job is not that special).royalan said:
Most blacks love seeing black success. They don't know if I can get them the loan, but they [think they] know it's on the up and up.
royalan said:
LoL! I never said that ALL blacks embrace slum culture. However a significant number do. So much so, that slum culture is a big part of mainstream black culture.
What are you arguing against? That slum culture is destructive? Or That slum culture is embraced and defended in mainstream black culture?
I can think of few groups that would criticize a mayor of a city because he decided to speak out against black youth crime.
http://articles.philly.com/2011-08-09/news/29867410_1_michael-nutter-mob-violence-black-fathers
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
I'm a middle school teacher. Last year I taught in a 95% white community, very affluent. They had a PTO for Dad's Club where they would come to the school and do work in the school, play basketball for kids at recess, etc.
I now work in a 95% Hispanic/Black population. You couldn't FIND a dad within a 10 mile radius of the school.
All that needs to be said is 67% single parent, almost 0% of those single parents are dads. It shows. I would go as far as to say that 8 out of 10 black males at my middle school have been disciplined for behavior issues. They have absolutely NO role model for which they are to live up to. Having a bunch of black boys with no role models, then effects the girls, how the boys treat them effect how they treat themselves, how they value themselves. Remember no dads means many black girls are never taught how to allow men/boys to treat them. As you can imagine it's a mess.
... I think it's THE fundamental issue with minority/poverty populations. Complete lack of family structure. No moms or dads, a lot of kids live with their aunts/uncles/grandparents. You have some kids who are very successful being raised only by mom, some have a mom and dad who are very involved and care and want better for their children. In the end, those types of kids are so few and far between they're outliers and might as well not even count towards any relevancy.
I now work in a 95% Hispanic/Black population. You couldn't FIND a dad within a 10 mile radius of the school.
All that needs to be said is 67% single parent, almost 0% of those single parents are dads. It shows. I would go as far as to say that 8 out of 10 black males at my middle school have been disciplined for behavior issues. They have absolutely NO role model for which they are to live up to. Having a bunch of black boys with no role models, then effects the girls, how the boys treat them effect how they treat themselves, how they value themselves. Remember no dads means many black girls are never taught how to allow men/boys to treat them. As you can imagine it's a mess.
... I think it's THE fundamental issue with minority/poverty populations. Complete lack of family structure. No moms or dads, a lot of kids live with their aunts/uncles/grandparents. You have some kids who are very successful being raised only by mom, some have a mom and dad who are very involved and care and want better for their children. In the end, those types of kids are so few and far between they're outliers and might as well not even count towards any relevancy.
JJDinomite
Banned
Location may have a thing to do with it. Poor black inner-city kids are raised by poor black inner-city parents, both of whom don't aspire to take hold of life and move out of the poor inner-city. The same could be said for the other races, not just African Americans.
Mainstream is something that is covered often in the media. Which doesn't equate to what. Actual black culture is. We have people that don't even understand slavery in this thread. Having no father in the family house hold isn't black culture it isn't even part of culture it is what happens to families to more than half of blacks in america, but it isn't culture.Measley said:
I didn't make one excuse for anything so you can stop twisting my words.
MWS Natural said:
I just don't think wilfull intra-cultural stratification will help address the issues at hand. Its just like when it was the blacks vs the negros in the 60s. Blacks were the hard, new, revolutionary young men, some would even go further and proudly and defiantly call themselves what the racist whites called them. They went on to join SNCC and start the BPP. Then it was the negros who kowtowed, who allowed themselves to be named, who didn't want to fight, only wanted to wait. That wasn't totally true, but it was the conventional wisdom, and for a lot of people it was true enough. That's what H Rap Brown was talking about in his younger days. He was attacking them, calling them Uncle Tom, etc, and while it helped solidify his base, it did not help the movement. The radical split from the conventional and heads got popped. That's my take on it, but beyond the glibness, if the old generation and the new could have reconciled, the 70s would have been so much different I think.
I don't believe in nigga culture. I think splitting up along judgmental lines like that is a negative, not a positive. It's a thing, separation, but not the thing that will help.
edit:
If I had a million dollars, I'd rent one of those offices off of S. Capitol St over in South East. And every day after school I'd teach young black men how to hack, and crack, and do everything and anything with a computer. There would be mentorships, I'd tell them crazy shit about the world. Stuff they need to know, be that crazy uncle. I had a few of them, myself.
ok, make it 5. That would be a good good start. They just need a new look, in my eyes, and a pathway to get somewhere.
PTO for dads is nice and all, but I would put forth that those black and hispanic dads who ARE involved in their children's lives are too busy working, and that's their mentality. It isn't their world, so they have to go to work. They aren't going to take off a sick day to come play basketball. Different viewpoints seeing different realities.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
JJDinomite said:
Is this a "they're not rich because they don't want to be" post?
Londa said:
main·stream
 
noun
1. the principal or dominant course, tendency, or trend.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mainstream
And yes, the lack of a male figure in the household is a part of black culture, because you have the majority of black youth growing up in a matriarchal single parent household. Thus, their culture is formed from the environment created by their single black mother, and all the experiences that result from that situation.
Actually, I more confused about what you're arguing against. One minute you're saying that to be a successful black man you have to divorce yourself of black culture, then you're admitting that these negative tropes aren't exclusive to black culture, just universally accepted by black people...then you admit that they aren't universally accepted...just accepted by a lot.
Yours is the argument that keeps sliding.
MorisUkunRasik said:
He'll just vote for Herman Cain, which will fix all of it.
Free bus tickets OUT of the city for all qualified negros. 999. Then they can aspire to having jobs. Washing dishes and doin laundry. Plenty of jobs. Everywhere.
(Well known issues with moving out of the city. And now there's even issues of finding a decent place and staying IN the city. Go on and climb that mountain, or else you're a lazy ass.)
Strike at the root. The horrible economic conditions, the artificially depressed social conditions. The kids have so many wrong ideas about almost everything, sex, education, achievement, their own futures and potential, you name it. So they need to be straightened out first, and the communities don't have to rely on the parents or the schools, solely. Parents are at work, schools are underfunded, and they can be only so responsible. So Communities can help out too, and add input themselves. Give the kids more than TV and homework to guide them after school. Bring the kids in and make them feel like a part of the communities. This is what they wanted when they spoke about headstart programs, but the headstart building I used to drive past, home from work, I've never seen it open. Don't know if it's even in use. And I'd say more is needed. This is just one avenue to take, but it would help. Get to the kids while they're young, and help fortify them against teen sex and pregnancy and drugs and gang culture.
royalan said:
But he does have a point.
It's a destructive anti-culture that affects the black minority more so than any other racial group in america right now.
And even though in an ideal world, intelligent black people shouldn't have to - they need to be there to slap some sense into other black people (largely) and the other dumbasses that subscribe to the culture of anti-intellectualism.
Hell, it should just be black people, but all people - but again, it's an issue that affects black people more so than any other group.
For our part, we should slap the shit out of people making reality TV shows among other things.
royalan said:
To be successful you have to divorce yourself completely from black culture on some level, mainly because there are aspects of black culture that are overwhelmingly negative. Though there are negative aspects of all cultures, blacks are unique in that they embrace the negative side of their culture and defend it against critiques from insiders and outsiders. This embrace of the negative side of their culture has led to sobering statistics like a 67% of black children growing up in single parent households, or 53% of black males not graduating high school, or more black males in prison than in college, and on and on and on.
Its always been the same argument.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
WRONG THREAD
Zaptruder said:
He doesn't have a point. He just keeps changing his opinion when people argue him down.
That there's a destructive anti-culture affecting a large number of blacks has never been the debate, it's been universally accepted in this thread to be the case. But I, as well as others, don't believe that it's an issue inherent solely in black culture or black people, as certain posters have vaguely attempted to suggest with comments like Basically, in order to be a successful black male you have to divorce yourself from black culture...
Londa said:
Because the statistics show that they do, at very alarming rates.
Again, making excuses for the behavior, or pretending that they don't exist, only makes it worse. Like the people who criticized Cosby for "airing the dirty laundry", instead of working to tackle the problem.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Sorry, wrong thread.
But there is a black bear and a brown bear. *troll grin*
You guys might wanna edit the pic out your quotes
On topic, As a young black male who goes to an HBCU in the south, in the middle of a urban 'ghetto', I have given up on 40% of black men and boys. The system has failed many of them.
They are given the most ignorant, low life idols to look up to since their fathers either subscribe to that lifestyle or are absent. And they reject other influence because once they are of age they feel themselves to be man enough to be 'gangsta' or whatever the hell they want to be. They already subscribed to a particular mindset at the age of 9, 10, 11 or 12. Its quite sad.
But there is a black bear and a brown bear. *troll grin*
You guys might wanna edit the pic out your quotes
On topic, As a young black male who goes to an HBCU in the south, in the middle of a urban 'ghetto', I have given up on 40% of black men and boys. The system has failed many of them.
They are given the most ignorant, low life idols to look up to since their fathers either subscribe to that lifestyle or are absent. And they reject other influence because once they are of age they feel themselves to be man enough to be 'gangsta' or whatever the hell they want to be. They already subscribed to a particular mindset at the age of 9, 10, 11 or 12. Its quite sad.
The bolded is what I asked you to specifically define ages ago.
The italicized is what I just plain don't agree with. To believe this erases the realities of growing up without proper role models, access to opportunities, and the basic belief that you can be more than what you see around you. No, they just like being this way.
Measley said:
So you either divorce yourself from all black culture to succeed, or successful blacks have to separate themselves from poor black culture to succeed? Couldn't you just see the negative for what it is, see the positives for what they are, and no one needs to abandon their heritage, or prejudge an entire community as negative, simply because some people readily embrace negative things?
American culture as a whole embraces negative things, but we don't see people beating their own cultures to death over the disagreement. Why does the world come to black America, totally independent of context, (or ignorant of it, I can't decide), and say, "black America, your community is so fucked up, what is wrong with you?" This is while people are trying to resegregate schools, have been re-zoning districts so money and jobs go elsewhere, and in some cases, an already low situation never raised up above ground level in the first place and is ready to sink right back into the 1930s with no municipalities, just fences, fields, and poor black folk. The world is a player in this too. You want to win, attack the problem. The problem is not 'black culture'. Even those negative aspects are more symptom than problem. And you're not divorcing yourself from anything, imho, you're contributing to the self-loathing.
Measley said:
If they really know what "Real" is, there shouldn't be a problem. "Keeping it real" as a media device or a memetic however, depends. Acting the "hard man" is keeping it real to some, not even unique to black culture even. Not real though, is it?
Teach them what is real, dude. But I really have to wonder.
edit:
The white and black idiots who perpetuate that whole "act white\black" crap don't deserve to even have that subject addressed. Stupidity on both sides of the line there, and you hurt the next generations when you see it in that light or even use those terms. You might not have written the book, but I can see it on your shelf. Doin ol Scratch's work for him.
KidGalactus
Member
Measley said:
There is a problem, sure... but you do realize there's a difference between black culture as a whole and "Hip-hop' and inner city cultures, right?
MorisUkunRasik said:
Not necessarily, but poverty is neither something you're doomed to, nor is it something that somebody can just waltz out of.
But I believe in the power of wanting something so bad you're willing to work for it.
As my mother who grew up in a dirt poor village in South America with brothers and sisters and no food who then became a successful chemical engineer in the worldwide petrochemical industry and brought me to the states so I would know a better life and education, I'm well aware that you can work your way out of poverty, but that it takes some serious talent and effort.
You guys are trying to argue with Measley over semantics. The label of the culture is irrelevent. The culture he is refering to that the majority of black people subscribe to is a reactionary culture, simple as that. The label of "hip hop culture" is nothing more than a modern label to the added commercialization of said culture.KidGalactus said:
akira28 said:
My job is to teach, not to babysit and/or raise other people's children.
Ever been to a majority white school and then to a majority black school? Its like night and day, and a large reason behind that is the former has mostly two parent families, and the latter does not.
Measley said:
Hahaha you mean that caricature of the pampered and wealthy son?
I know people "like" that in real life, successful, black, wealthy, intelligent who act normal, people might actually look up to them. Carlton was a joke character, a deliberate exaggeration, and now I have to wonder if you're serious.
Measley said:
I have. And it's actually money that is the difference. Try a majority black school in the inner city versus one in a moderate suburb on the city border, even for contrast and comparison. Those parents didn't keep their majority black school in a one story brick building from the 1940s versus a new steel and glass work of architecture the majority-white students in the county 40 miles north of them might have gotten. Divorces didn't do it either. Economics did, politics did, white flight and concentration away from black populated areas did.
SSJ1Goku said:
I'm not surprised.
akira28 said:
No, the caricature of the black kid that "acts white".
Its a common theme in black-oriented media.
You do understand that a two-parent household is going to have a lot more potential economic power than a single-parent household right? Keep in mind, 73% of black youth grow up in the latter.
Careful! It is about perspective. To a black male that subscribes to an alternate culture that values hypermasculinity you start to enter the realm of understanding better just how he views other black males that do NOT subscribe to his own disfunctional culture and why he would see them as outsiders. To you Carlton Banks is an exaggeration but to the majority of black males out here that imagery is basically any black male that reads. This is how extreme their alternate culture is or atleast has gotten.akira28 said:
SSJ1Goku said:
I would contend that they aren't the majority, but instead the ignant loud mouthed minority.
Like the guy who posted about 3 black kids who went into his store and started verbally abusing him because they were acting up and he, as the manger, told them to quiet down. See, I know that's not the rule, but the exception. But a lot of people might think that people just walk around like that. They don't. Certain stupid people, forming protective groups out of survival, go around like that, but it isn't the norm.
KidGalactus
Member
SSJ1Goku said:
I'm not arguing semantics. I think it's a flawed argument that builds on top of a false assumption.
Do you have some research that says a majority of black people subscribe to said culture?
SSJ1Goku said:
Lots of my friends are black and come from single parent homes. Lots of my friends are asian...white...hispanic. I'm the one with the two parents, so while single parent childhoods CAN be tough, they aren't a death sentence, and they aren't an automatic pathway to growing up a damn fool. I understand the statistics, but they don't lead us to this as a foregone conclusion.
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