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[TheFightingFish]

I don't claim any type of deep knowledge around this issue. But I do work at a before school program for low income kids in my city (it's basically 90% black with a smattering of asian and hispanic) and the issues with missing dads really hits home to me. Like these boys that I work with don't even have these big expectations on their dads, they just want them to freaking show up once and a while. And when their dads actually do show up they are over the moon with excitement, they will be telling me for weeks before and after that their dad just came to visit and play football with them or whatever, then the dads all seem to just drift out and leave them alone with their moms again. Breaks my heart to see that.

 

[captmcblack]

The funny thing about that phrase is that I've encountered as many white/non-black people (friends, no less!) that marvel at how white I act as I've encountered black people that cut me/others down for acting white.

I don't know which side irks me more - black people cutting me down out of ignorance, or white/non-black people treating me like a pet doing tricks out of...something (I don't want to call my friends racists, but cmonson.jpg).

Basically, dudebro status: shit is fucked up.

 

[Bleepey]

Do these statistics include immigrants from Africa? I wonder how many actual African immigrants are in the US (I suppose I could just look that up). Every person I've met from Africa proper here in Seattle has come across as an extremely intelligent and hard working. Most people I've met hold college degrees or are putting themselves through school.

I suppose I don't really have anything to add to the discussion, but I guess I was just wondering what percentage African immigrants make up of the overall 'black' population.

Africans in the US are scene as the model minority and are more educated on averag thn even asian Americans.

 

[Devolution]

The funny thing about that phrase is that I've encountered as many white/non-black people (friends, no less!) that marvel at how white I act as I've encountered black people that cut me/others down for acting white.

I don't know which side irks me more - black people cutting me down out of ignorance, or white/non-black people treating me like a pet doing tricks out of...something (I don't want to call my friends racists, but cmonson.jpg).

Basically, dudebro status: shit is fucked up.

The white people nonsense I blame on the media and not knowing enough black people outside of stereotypes.

 

[royalan]

So why is that the black family structure has only started disintegrating since the 1970ies? What we're now seeing is a recent development.

I would actually argue that the traditional family structure in general has started disintegrating across the board. It's just more apparent in the black community.

But I've always noticed a weird dynamic in the black community: individual family units seem to be deteriorating, but extended family groups have always played an important part in black culture. Especially in the south. How do you think Tyler Perry's made all of his money?

 

[Takuan]

The funny thing about that phrase is that I've encountered as many white/non-black people (friends, no less!) that marvel at how white I act as I've encountered black people that cut me/others down for acting white.

I don't know which side irks me more - black people cutting me down out of ignorance, or white/non-black people treating me like a pet doing tricks out of...something (I don't want to call my friends racists, but cmonson.jpg).

Basically, dudebro status: shit is fucked up.

Yeah, I've talked to my black friends about this before. It's basically a lose-lose situation; there will be people who act like it's a revelation that you're capable of speaking and operating like a normal human being to the point where it's downright condescending, and then people from your own ethnic group label you as "not one of us". It must be incredibly discouraging/confusing for a kid and infuriating for an adult. I have so much respect for those who are able to look past it and carry on doing what they do, because if ever there was an excuse for a "n*gga moment"...

 

[Devolution]

I would actually argue that the traditional family structure in general has started disintegrating across the board. It's just more apparent in the black community.

But I've always noticed a weird dynamic in the black community: individual family units seem to be deteriorating, but extended family groups have always played an important part in black culture. Especially in the south. How do you think Tyler Perry's made all of his money?

This is just purely conjecture on my part but I wonder if this too goes back to slavery since it was not uncommon for couples to be separated or the men/women to be "bred" together. And that the strong ties of a big family group are derived from trying to band together and create a culture while in servitude. So individual ties amongst couples were constantly severed but the group could still be maintained.

I dunno.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Anti-intellectualism. Performing well in school is sometimes seen as 'acting white' and therefore terribly uncool. I'm sure there are a million other reasons.

67% coming from single parent homes is a crazy number.

this is definitely a major factor

 

[Dali]

Speaking of which, one of my friend's has a love hate relationship with Tyler Perry. He loathes his shit but is happy to see someone putting black actors, actresses, MPTs to work.

That's the way a lot of people feel. I'd rather he were more like Spike Lee where I don't absolutely abhor his output and he hires black people. Maybe one day Perry will actually say, okay I've filled this niche now I can move on to something... anything that isn't likened to a modern-day minstrel show.

 

[ScOULaris]

Yeah, I've talked to my black friends about this before. It's basically a lose-lose situation; there will be people who act like it's a revelation that you're capable of speaking and operating like a normal human being to the point where it's downright condescending, and then people from your own ethnic group label you as "not one of us". It must be incredibly discouraging/confusing for a kid and infuriating for an adult. I have so much respect for those who are able to look past it and carry on doing what they do, because if ever there was an excuse for a "n*gga moment"...

Agreed. Hopefully those people manage to surround themselves with those intelligent enough (or at least not so ignorant) to not think in such simplistic, misguided terms.

PS - This thread has made me realize how much positive black TV programming we had in the 80's and 90's as compared to today. What the fuck happened there? Trashy shows get better ratings, I guess. Probably as simple as that.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The funny thing about that phrase is that I've encountered as many white/non-black people (friends, no less!) that marvel at how white I act as I've encountered black people that cut me/others down for acting white.

I don't know which side irks me more - black people cutting me down out of ignorance, or white/non-black people treating me like a pet doing tricks out of...something (I don't want to call my friends racists, but cmonson.jpg).

Basically, dudebro status: shit is fucked up.

Damn, that sounds pretty fucked up.

What kind of comments do you get? Stuff like, "You're so white, dude."? I've got quite a few more intellectual/well-to-do friends who are of a variety of ethnicities, but I just can't imagine any of them accusing each other of 'acting white'--as if being intellectual and not acting like a thug belongs to white people.

 

[Takuan]

Damn, that sounds pretty fucked up.

What kind of comments do you get? Stuff like, "You're so white, dude."? I've got quite a few more intellectual/well-to-do friends who are of a variety of ethnicities, but I just can't imagine any of them accusing each other of 'acting white'--as if being intellectual and not acting like a thug belongs to white people.

Well, my friend's wife in the past has complained vocally about him listening to too much "white music" or "acting white" when he started law school. They're both Chinese. lolgif?

Agreed. Hopefully those people manage to surround themselves with those intelligent enough (or at least not so ignorant) to not think in such simplistic, misguided terms.

PS - This thread has made me realize how much positive black TV programming we had in the 80's and 90's as compared to today. What the fuck happened there? Trashy shows get better ratings, I guess. Probably as simple as that.

Didn't they all get flack for presenting too rosy a lifestyle, being too removed from the reality of most black families?

 

[Captain Sparrow]

I really wish I had a better way to put this, but this culture is a terminal cancer. It gets worse and worse, and no one of power wants any part of it.

The tie-ins with slavery are completely irrelevant. Anti-intellectualism is just completely and utterly asinine and inexcusable.

 

[Dash27]

I always am curious about this issue. I live in a very mixed neighborhood. I'm white, neighbors on both sides and across the street are black except for one woman. Work with 3 black people in my group of 10. Another handful of black guys at my gym that I know pretty well. All of them are very intelligent, well mannered, successful people. Why are they able to succeed and so many others are not?

I say cultural and economic. Single parent homes, lack of role models. A friend at my gym is involved in "Fatherless to Fatherhood" an indie movie about this issue:

http://www.fromfatherlesstofatherhood.com/

 

[JGS]

I always am curious about this issue. I live in a very mixed neighborhood. I'm white, neighbors on both sides and across the street are black except for one woman. Work with 3 black people in my group of 10. Another handful of black guys at my gym that I know pretty well. All of them are very intelligent, well mannered, successful people. Why are they able to succeed and so many others are not?

It's class related.

There's always been black in the community like this. They're not even an anomaly.

 

[MWS Natural]

Damn, that sounds pretty fucked up.

What kind of comments do you get? Stuff like, "You're so white, dude."? I've got quite a few more intellectual/well-to-do friends who are of a variety of ethnicities, but I just can't imagine any of them accusing each other of 'acting white'--as if being intellectual and not acting like a thug belongs to white people.

From White People:
"You listen to that kind of music? No way I don't believe you!"
"You have such good manners!"
"You're so well spoken and intelligent."
"Wow! You are really smart for a black guy!"

From Black People:
"What the hell kind of music is this??"
"Damn you are corny"
"Why you have to act white?"

 

[Londa]

I really wish I had a better way to put this, but this culture is a terminal cancer. It gets worse and worse, and no one of power wants any part of it.

The tie-ins with slavery are completely irrelevant. Anti-intellectualism is just completely and utterly asinine and inexcusable.

Are you really calling everyone who isn't successful dumb? Or just unsuccessful black people?

Ok, are you saying that blacks that make fun of smart people are dumb? That, I do agree with.

 

[Dash27]

It's class related.

There's always been black in the community like this. They're not even an anomaly.

Definitely not an anomaly. As for class related, go down a few blocks and you're in a lower income area with mostly all black families. All the kids go to the same schools, which are very good in my town. So it's not access to education by me anyway, maybe inner city though that's a big issue.

I still say cultural, but what specifically I dont know. BTW all the families I mentioned near me are just that, nuclear family with mom, dad and kids.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

From White People:
"You listen to that kind of music? No way I don't believe you!"
"You have such good manners!"
"You're so well spoken and intelligent."
"Wow! You are really smart for a black guy!"

From Black People:
"What the hell kind of music is this??"
"Damn you are corny"
"Why you have to act white?"

People are that direct? That's like asking for a punch to the face. I seriously can't imagine someone saying that.

Where are you from, by the way?

 

[chronos4590]

From White People:
"You listen to that kind of music? No way I don't believe you!"
"You have such good manners!"
"You're so well spoken and intelligent."
"Wow! You are really smart for a black guy!"

From Black People:
"What the hell kind of music is this??"
"Damn you are corny"
"Why you have to act white?"

Every single one except the smart for a black guy comment. That's really fucked up

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Every single one except the smart for a black guy comment. That's really fucked up

Seriously. The person may as well be saying, "I think black people are universally stupid, but you're an exception!"

 

[JCX]

The funny thing about that phrase is that I've encountered as many white/non-black people (friends, no less!) that marvel at how white I act as I've encountered black people that cut me/others down for acting white.

I don't know which side irks me more - black people cutting me down out of ignorance, or white/non-black people treating me like a pet doing tricks out of...something (I don't want to call my friends racists, but cmonson.jpg).

Basically, dudebro status: shit is fucked up.

I would say the exception are older black people, who don't tend to label education as "being white", at least not in my experience.

"You're so well spoken!" is so ridiculous. I've had white and black people tell me variants of that.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

From White People:
"You listen to that kind of music? No way I don't believe you!"
"You have such good manners!"
"You're so well spoken and intelligent."
"Wow! You are really smart for a black guy!"

From Black People:
"What the hell kind of music is this??"
"Damn you are corny"
"Why you have to act white?"

I'm happy to say I've never encountered these reactions. Not sure why, but I haven't. Maybe they're simply saying them behind my back. lol.

 

[Baby Milo]

People are that direct?

you would really be surprised dude

i just laugh off both sides of that now and fuck with them(humor and sarcasm nothing malicious though)

 

[Indrid Cold1]

From White People:
"You listen to that kind of music? No way I don't believe you!"
"You have such good manners!"
"You're so well spoken and intelligent."
"Wow! You are really smart for a black guy!"

From Black People:
"What the hell kind of music is this??"
"Damn you are corny"
"Why you have to act white?"

I'm calling bull shit on this. I seriously doubt this was ever said to your face.

 

[Bleepey]

Expecting What You Didn't Expect In Black Men
http://generation-x.net/viewVideo.p...xpecting_What_You_Didn_t_Expect__In_Black_Men

I GOTTA HUSTLE JUST TO EAT
http://generation-x.net/viewVideo.php?video_id=147&title=I_GOTTA_HUSTLE_JUST_TO_EAT

Raise The Bar
http://generation-x.net/viewVideo.php?video_id=144&title=Raise_The_Bar

Black People Acting White-Sellouts
http://generation-x.net/viewVideo.php?video_id=172&title=Black_People_Acting_White_Sellouts

College We Do Not Have The Luxury Not To Go
http://generation-x.net/viewVideo.php?video_id=185&title=College_We_Do_Not_Have_The_Luxury_Not_To_Go


REV RUN AND HIS SON
http://generation-x.net/viewVideo.php?video_id=592&title=REV_RUN_AND_HIS_SON

REJECTING WHAT WE CONSIDER WHITE
http://generation-x.net/viewVideo.php?video_id=623&title=REJECTING_WHAT_WE_CONSIDER_WHITE

This guy talks a lot about the black community but damn it a lot of what he talks is sense.

 

[JGS]

Definitely not an anomaly. As for class related, go down a few blocks and you're in a lower income area with mostly all black families. All the kids go to the same schools, which are very good in my town. So it's not access to education by me anyway, maybe inner city though that's a big issue.

I still say cultural, but what specifically I dont know. BTW all the families I mentioned near me are just that, nuclear family with mom, dad and kids.

I agree it's cultural but in America, that is tightly related to income/wealth/class structure. One of the things I like so much about black culture is this really doesn't play as big a role in terms of interactions.

I personally think education has little to do with it unless the very worst schools literally don't have teachers in it worth paying. I've lived in black lower middle class neighborhoods that were largely married couples and now live in a mixed neighborhood where there seems to be more white people living together than black people doing so. All the black families near me are married with kids. They also have well paying blue collar or white collar jobs.

Of course, you go to the poorer neighborhoods and you will see the opposite happening

 

[VelvetMouth]

Do these statistics include immigrants from Africa? I wonder how many actual African immigrants are in the US (I suppose I could just look that up). Every person I've met from Africa proper here in Seattle has come across as an extremely intelligent and hard working. Most people I've met hold college degrees or are putting themselves through school.

I suppose I don't really have anything to add to the discussion, but I guess I was just wondering what percentage African immigrants make up of the overall 'black' population.

They're completely different. I'm from Africa but I'm white so I don't count here but the black Africans I know who immigrated to the US, they really want to be here and they want to succeed and carve out a great life for themselves. When I used to participate in expat forums there were a lot of black Africans who really looked down on black Americans. They felt like black Americans are given all these oppertunities that they and their countrymen would die for and yet here they are failing out of high school.

 

[Measley]

Basically to be a successful black male, you need to completely divorce yourself from black culture on some level (unless its athletics or the entertainment field).

What's really sad is the state of black inner-city schools. The main vehicle of black social mobility is a rotting carcass because of lack of involvement from the very community it serves.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Basically to be a successful black male, you need to completely divorce yourself from black culture on some level (unless its athletics or the entertainment field).

No.

Just because that's what you did it doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

Regards,

Successful black male from a family of successful black males and females who have not divorced themselves from "black culture" (whatever the fuck you mean by that nebulous comment).

 

[Measley]

No.

Just because that's what you did it doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

Regards,

Successful black male from a family of successful black males and females who have not divorced themselves from "black culture" (whatever the fuck you mean by that nebulous comment).

So you have no clue what I'm talking about, yet you respond in a knee-jerk fashion because you don't like what you "think" I said?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

So you have no clue what I'm talking about,

no, I know exactly what you're talking about: the same bullshit you always comment on.

this is not your first post @ NeoGAF, Measley. Don't bother responding; I won't read it. I've had my fill of your posts and diatribes to last 2 lifetimes.

With respect. Keep that shit, dogg.

 

[MWS Natural]

People are that direct? That's like asking for a punch to the face. I seriously can't imagine someone saying that.

Where are you from, by the way?

I am from up north but have spent the last 10 years in the south.

I'm calling bull shit on this. I seriously doubt this was ever said to your face.

This was the only comment that was actually in the workplace. I believe he meant in a joking way as he was a pretty cool guy. Not promisingly he was fired a few months later for racial comments.

Basically to be a successful black male, you need to completely divorce yourself from black culture on some level (unless its athletics or the entertainment field).

Definitely don't agree with this. You are getting black culture mixed up with nigga culture.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

By 'divorce yourself from black culture' do you mean 'divorce yourself from the anti-intellectual, thuggish, hip-hop, ghetto culture'? Surely that's not the only 'black culture' (nor does it belong solely to blacks) out there. No more than evangelical rednecks in the south who watch Nascar represent the whole of 'white culture'.

 

[Measley]

no, I know exactly what you're talking about: the same bullshit you always comment on.

this is not your first post @ NeoGAF, Measley. Don't bother responding; I won't read it. I've had my fill of your posts and diatribes to last 2 lifetimes.

With respect. Keep that shit, dogg.

Typical response I get from my black students (and sadly parents) when they don't like to hear the truth.

Its like sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la".

 

[PantherLotus]

Mostly posting just to subscribe, but I'm going with the Dad Theory. We all are kinda saying that's probably the main problem...but what's the solution?

 

[Measley]

By 'divorce yourself from black culture' do you mean 'divorce yourself from the anti-intellectual, thuggish, hip-hop, ghetto culture'? Surely that's not the only 'black culture' (nor does it belong solely to blacks) out there. No more than evangelical rednecks in the south who watch Nascar represent the whole of 'white culture'.

I said "on some level". Clearly not ALL of black culture is negative, but some of it definitely is.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Typical response I get from my black students (and sadly parents) when they don't like to hear the truth.

I'm not even black and you're offending me.

 

[samus i am]

If you come up to DC this weekend go to Howard Homecoming. You will be able to see the future of black America there. I don't think it is all doom and gloom. There are some very positive things that are going on, perhaps we just need the proper motivation.

 

[Measley]

I'm not even black and you're offending me.

With the numbers being what they are, I think the time to be PC and worrying about hurting people's feelings are over. We're about 20 years away from losing most of the gains of the civil rights movement.

 

[PantherLotus]

I said "on some level". Clearly not ALL of black culture is negative, but some of it definitely is.

But you said 'divorce yourself completely from black culture," as if being black and participating in the American black experience is itself the problem...

 

[PantherLotus]

With the numbers being what they are, I think the time to be PC, and worrying about hurting people's feelings are over. We're about 20 years away from losing most of the gains of the civil rights movement.

But saying "black culture is the problem" has nothing to do with avoiding political correctness...and everything to do with being ignorant.

 

[Measley]

But you said 'divorce yourself completely from black culture," as if being black and participating in the American black experience is itself the problem...

I also said on some level. Did you not read that part? And yes, certain aspects of black culture is part of the problem.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Mostly posting just to subscribe, but I'm going with the Dad Theory. We all are kinda saying that's probably the main problem...but what's the solution?

As has been stated a few times, the solution is complex as it is not a singular thing that needs solving.


Personally I think education is a big part of it but even that is entangled with anti-intellectualism, no funding in school, single-parent homes and lack of role models.


Shit sucks.

 

[PantherLotus]

^that's fair, but that doesn't mean it's hopeless or solutions shouldn't be sought.

I also said on some level. Did you not read that part? And yes, certain aspects of black culture is part of the problem.

Basically to be a successful black male, you need to completely divorce yourself from black culture on some level (unless its athletics or the entertainment field).

What's really sad is the state of black inner-city schools. The main vehicle of black social mobility is a rotting carcass because of lack of involvement from the very community it serves.

So basically you're saying nothing, because when you use caveats like "on some level" and "aspects of" but pretend like you didn't just say "divorce yourself completely from black culture," you're saying things that you either don't mean or that you don't understand.

 

[royalan]

Typical response I get from my black students (and sadly parents) when they don't like to hear the truth.

Well, I personally don't think that what you're saying is the truth. I don't think you have to divorce yourself from black culture at all to be a successful black male. I don't think anti-intellectualism is an inherent trait of black culture. It's certainly a prevalent symptom of a myriad of social/economic/historical issues that plague the black community, but black culture itself is a vibrant thing worthy of respect. A lot more than it gets.

But anti-intellectualism affects more than just black people. People get picked on all the time for being book smart. It's just not called "acting white" when you're not black. It's called being a geek.

When I was in high school I very rarely got picked on for "acting white" because I loved and respected black culture and my place within it. The kids that usually got picked on for "acting white" or being "whitewashed" were the black kids who shared your philosophy: that you have to divorce yourself from being being black to make it.

 

[Casp0r]

So basically this thread is about people that don't try surprisingly don't succeed ... surprise surprise.

 

[royalan]

So basically this thread is about people that don't try surprisingly don't succeed ... surprise surprise.

No, more like this thread is about discussion of the various reasons people don't believe it's worth it to try in the first place.

 

[entremet]

Breakdown of the family unit. It takes a village, etc.

I know many inner city teachers and many parents completely defer the raising of their students to the public school system. It's a vicious cycle.

 

[Bgamer90]

So basically this thread is about people that don't try surprisingly don't succeed ... surprise surprise.

::rolls eyes::

Yeah that's it. /sarcasm