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[A Link to the Past]

I don't see any negative to improving the hiring process where it can be approved. Maybe the blind application would be more expensive, but it should also have better results because it's only the voice that's being evaluated.

I am not arguing that it shouldn't happen, I'm arguing that it shows a very serious problem if it must happen.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I am not arguing that it shouldn't happen, I'm arguing that it shows a very serious problem if it must happen.

Don't you think that there is evidence of a very serious problem already?

 

[Neiteio]

I am not arguing that it shouldn't happen, I'm arguing that it shows a very serious problem if it must happen.

Or it might show that there was never a problem and people were being hired based purely on talent/skill all along.

We won't know until they implement blind auditions across the industry for a reasonable period of time.

It's something worth pushing for, I think.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Or it might show that there was never a problem and people were being hired based purely on talent/skill all along.

We won't know until they implement blind auditions across the industry for a reasonable period of time.

It's something worth pushing for, I think.

In which case, it begs the question of why white people are disproportionately hired for white and non-white roles. It ultimately comes down to the fact that over-representation of a minority group is considered shoehorning, but when it comes to a majority group, there needs to be proof that their over-representation is through bias and not talent/skill.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I would like proof for this. You can not generally tell the difference between a black voice and white voice.

I was speaking for myself mainly. Like I knew a black person voiced Samurai Jack, and that Jet Black on Cowboy Bebop were voiced by Black men before I knew who their VA's were.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Or it might show that there was never a problem and people were being hired based purely on talent/skill all along.

We won't know until they implement blind auditions across the industry for a reasonable period of time.

It's something worth pushing for, I think.

Come on Neiteio.
That is ridiculous even for you.

 

[boredandlazy]

Because Laura Bailey is in everything. Just on that virtue it's a reduction of quality. Do you remember that video where Nolan North talks to himself in GTAV?

It would have been interesting to see how many people would have immediately picked up that it's Laura Bailey, providing they went into the game unaware of this controversy of course.

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

I remember an article about this very same thing over half a decade ago concerning Cleveland Brown from Family Guy.

I would like proof for this. You can not generally tell the difference between a black voice and white voice.

You would say 4/5 I can distinguish the difference by sound alone and that's okay! There is nothing wrong with that fact that there is a slight difference in the way we evolved on separate parts of the world. I'm not saying you are offended by saying you can tell the difference, but to the people who would be offended I would say it'd be similar to getting upset when I said I could visually tell the difference between varied races...

 

[Neiteio]

In which case, it begs the question of why white people are disproportionately hired for white and non-white roles. It ultimately comes down to the fact that over-representation of a minority group is considered shoehorning, but when it comes to a majority group, there needs to be proof that their over-representation is through bias and not talent/skill.

Not sure what you're saying. In a blind auction, you can't tell the race of the person. You can't see them; you don't even know their name. It's chosen based on the most deserving performance.

There's no longer a question to be asked, because we can definitely say, "That person was picked since they gave the best performance," full stop.

 

[SarusGray]

In a perfect world this would be a non-issue but reality wise, it very much is an issue.

POC are discriminated against whether its sub-consciously or not. I don't think Neil is at fault at all, far from it, but within the industry itself, this can be problematic and its not limited to just videogames, it is voice acting in general. I believe a blind interview process would help, diversity training etc.

I understand that the majority of the population is white which would explain the many white cast in voice acting or acting in general, but yeah...

 

[A Link to the Past]

Not sure what you're saying. In a blind auction, you can't tell the race of the person. You can't see them; you don't even know their name. It's chosen based on the most deserving performance.

There's no longer a question to be asked, because we can definitely say, "That person was picked since they gave the best performance," full stop.

I'm speaking of the industry as it is, right now. Do you legitimately feel that white people are hired as often as they are for the roles that they are because they are the most talented?

 

[Neiteio]

Come on Neiteio.
That is ridiculous even for you.

Hey, I'm not saying there is or isn't a problem. I'm saying that using blind auditions and seeing if things do or don't change would be an objective way of telling what's going on in this industry where VA is concerned.

And VA is the easiest form of performance art where you can have blind auditions. Black out the names and give the hiring director a pair of headphones in a windowless room. Ask him or her to make his or her choice based only on the voice clips.

 

[L Thammy]

Not sure what you're saying. In a blind auction, you can't tell the race of the person. You can't see them; you don't even know their name. It's chosen based on the most deserving performance.

There's no longer a question to be asked, because we can definitely say, "That person was picked since they gave the best performance," full stop.

I think your previous post comes across as a "racism is over" argument, which is why you're being criticized.

I suspect that you were just trying to explain another advantage of blind testing though.

 

[Neiteio]

I'm speaking of the industry as it is, right now. Do you legitimately feel that white people are hired as often as they are for the roles that they are because they are the most talented?

Race has nothing to do with talent.

As for why certain people are hired, I'm saying I don't know.

Implementing blind auditions, and seeing if anything changes, would be a way to tell if race was playing a factor in the hiring process.

 

[Aaronrules380]

In which case, it begs the question of why white people are disproportionately hired for white and non-white roles. It ultimately comes down to the fact that over-representation of a minority group is considered shoehorning, but when it comes to a majority group, there needs to be proof that their over-representation is through bias and not talent/skill.

When you say disproportionately, do you mean relative to population proportions, or equal representation? Because having 60% of the actors being white or 12% being black in the USA is actually in line with population statistics. Equal representation (as in an equal number of blacks, hispanics, latino/as) is actually not really fair either, since it means people of minority race become hugely advantaged. Ideally, all races should be represented fairly, which means roughly equal to their proportion of the population. It's at that point that it's about skill and talent more than race

 

[Neiteio]

I think your previous post comes across as a "racism is over" argument, which is why you're being criticized.

I suspect that you were just trying to explain another advantage of blind testing though.

Racism is very real. But I won't accuse any hiring director of being racist just because they hired a white person. It's entirely possible they genuinely thought the white applicant gave the best performance, and it had nothing to do with race.

But the main point is blind auditions eliminate the possibility of racial discrimination.

 

[prwxv3]

There should be more diversity in VAs but having characters onoy voiced by someone of the same race is fucking stupid.

 

[Genuflections]

Come on Neiteio.
That is ridiculous even for you.

His "we don't know facts until facts come in" approach is generally something I agree with. All we have right now is one article and lots of people naming names off the top of their heads as if it's a reliable, valid study on racial inequity in voice acting. I believe there is probably discrimination, and that blind testing would probably help that, but I'm not going to speak authoritatively on a subject where so very little data is at hand.

 

[family_guy]

Saying a black game character should be voiced by a black actor kind of perpetuates the stereotype that black people talk a certain way and that can't be replicated by a non-black. I disagree with that. However if the issue is more that black actors are underrepresented in the games industry then I completely agree and more should be done about that, even if it's a black actor voicing another race.

 

[newtypepilot]

Fwiw the main protagonist in sleeping dogs is voiced by a korean american. He does not speak any cantonese throughout the entire game.

I dont think he did a bad job, but as a native canto speaker, it felt a bit weird to me. Still a great game though.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Race has nothing to do with talent.

As for why certain people are hired, I'm saying I don't know.

Implementing blind auditions, and seeing if anything changes, would be a way to tell if race was playing a factor in the hiring process.

With all respect, I don't know why there's as much desire to get hard proof of something that is proven time and time again in many different industries with respect to race and hiring practices. What would cause these business-minded people to deviate from the problematic hiring practices that we see everywhere else?

When you say disproportionately, do you mean relative to population proportions, or equal representation? Because having 60% of the actors being white or 12% being black in the USA is actually in line with population statistics. Equal representation (as in an equal number of blacks, hispanics, latino/as) is actually not really fair either, since it means people of minority race become hugely advantaged. Ideally, all races should be represented fairly, which means roughly equal to their proportion of the population. It's at that point that it's about skill and talent more than race

In that case, would you guess that white people comprise more than 60% of leading roles in the video game industry? Because there was a study that showed that black actors are proportionate to their real-world population, but in leading roles, they were noticeably less represented.

 

[Playsage]

Race has nothing to do with talent.

As for why certain people are hired, I'm saying I don't know.

Implementing blind auditions, and seeing if anything changes, would be a way to tell if race was playing a factor in the hiring process.

It's not possible for AAA studio like Naughty Dog to hire VA only through blind auditions as their work comprehend huge amounts of mocap acting and scanning

 

[Tovarisc]

Is there some hard data on this issue within videogame industry and VA castings? I mean can it be factually shown that black VA talent doesn't get same opportunities as white VA talent does?

On topic that OT introduces I wouldn't put this issue on VA talent, but developer of the game. Naughty Dog made decision to cast her based on performance she gave and on later date they decided to make character she was hired to VA black. Like others have pointed out, was ND supposed to fire VA talent and hire new one because character's skin color or just make character "yet another" white person?

 

[Aaronrules380]

With all respect, I don't know why there's as much desire to get hard proof of something that is proven time and time again in many different industries with respect to race and hiring practices. What would cause these business-minded people to deviate from the problematic hiring practices that we see everywhere else?



In that case, would you guess that white people comprise more than 60% of leading roles in the video game industry? Because there was a study that showed that black actors are proportionate to their real-world population, but in leading roles, they were noticeably less represented.

No. But I think that's even more of a reason not to try to force the "black characters should be played by black actors" because it's more likely to make it harder for black actors to get leading roles

 

[zsynqx]

It's not possible for AAA studio like Naughty Dog to hire VA only through blind auditions as their work comprehend huge amounts of mocap acting and scanning

They have never done facial scanning but you are right about the mocap part.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No. But I think that's even more of a reason not to try to force the "black characters should be played by black actors" because it's more likely to make it harder for black actors to get leading roles

The issue is not that black people should play black people and white people should play white people. The issue is that it's super common for a black character to be played by a white person, proportionately.

 

[L Thammy]

Can we agree that a systemic problem should be solved on a systemic level? I think the people who don't like this article don't like it largely because it zeroes in on a specific case. Maybe race was a factor, or maybe there was another problem, or maybe there isn't a problem at all, but it's difficult to say one way or the other when what we're actually trying to address isn't this specific case. If we had proportionate representation, most people wouldn't have a problem with this one casting decision.

 

[FyreWulff]

A black role does not mean a white role was lost. If you make the assumption that looking for a black voice actor to voice your black character means you're taking a job away from a white person.. you're participating in the racist "white is the default" mindset.

 

[Neiteio]

With all respect, I don't know why there's as much desire to get hard proof of something that is proven time and time again in many different industries with respect to race and hiring practices. What would cause these business-minded people to deviate from the problematic hiring practices that we see everywhere else?

But you can't assume that a hiring director is racist every time a white person is hired over a black person. There is still the possibility that they legitimately thought the person they chose was the best person for the job.

Again, blind auditions would eliminate the concern of racial discrimination, since each applicant's race would be unknown. Hiring directors wouldn't be able to tell who's applying. They would just hear their work.

 

[family_guy]

It's not possible for AAA studio like Naughty Dog to hire VA only through blind auditions as their work comprehend huge amounts of mocap acting and scanning

Don't think the two are as tightly coupled as you think. Laura Bailey looks nothing like the character she is voice acting and she's probably not doing all the mocap for the character just like hollywood actors have stunt people.

 

[injurai]

Blind auditions are one great step forward that can be made. It's worked for orchestras and apparently even software developers.

Isnt this how Nadine's VA got casted? They wanted a British voice, they found the voice actor based solely on the voice proved. While another department was finalizing the character design.

 

[Bishop89]

Is there an issue if a studio hires a voice actor to play many roles of different races instead of hiring individual actors per role?

 

[Aaronrules380]

The issue is not that black people should play black people and white people should play white people. The issue is that it's super common for a black character to be played by a white person, proportionately.

There are 6 times more white people than black people in the US (where most of the casting is going on), so I don't see how that's necessarily an issue unless you have evidence that the ratio leans more towards whites than blacks. In an ideal world free of racial bias, white people would still get more black roles simply because there are still more white people

 

[Playsage]

They have never done facial scanning but you are right about the mocap part.

Whoops! Got confused, I guess... Are their facial animation handmade? I always though they at least took the actors' expressions and then worked on them

 

[PSqueak]

Anyone knows examples of Black actors voicing white characters ?

The closest I can think is Kratos ....

Phil Lamar voices characters of all races across all mediums.

 

[Genuflections]

It's not possible for AAA studio like Naughty Dog to hire VA only through blind auditions as their work comprehend huge amounts of mocap acting and scanning

There are different stages to the audition process. Perhaps they could start that process with just a voice reading the lines, and then bring people in after they qualify past the readings. That would at least institute one layer of blind auditioning.

 

[A Link to the Past]

But you can't assume that a hiring director is racist every time a white person is hired over a black person. There is still the possibility that they legitimately thought the person they chose was the best person for the job.

Again, blind auditions would eliminate the concern of racial discrimination, since each applicant's race would be unknown. Hiring directors wouldn't be able to tell who's applying. They would just hear their work.

Seriously, the only argument you're making is an age-old one used to diminish the existence of racism in hiring. It's used virtually every time the issue of one or more races being under-represented in an industry comes up - either white people just coincidentally were better (ie, the Oscars), or non-white people in the US just don't try to get these jobs (ie, direction in film and writing in games). I'm not willing to entertain that white people just coincidentally earn the biggest roles so consistently.

There are 6 times more white people than black people in the US (where most of the casting is going on), so I don't see how that's necessarily an issue unless you have evidence that the ratio leans more towards whites than blacks. In an ideal world free of racial bias, white people would still get more black roles simply because there are still more white people

And I reiterate - would you say that white people represent a significant portion of lead roles in US releases of games?

 

[Neiteio]

Whoops! Got confused, I guess... Are their facial animation handmade? I always though they at least took the actors' expressions and then worked on them

In the TLoU documentary "Grounded," I recall them studying the facial expressions closely from the mocap sessions, but yeah, they're all handcrafted. Pretty amazing.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

But you can't assume that a hiring director is racist every time a white person is hired over a black person. There is still the possibility that they legitimately thought the person they chose was the best person for the job.

Again, blind auditions would eliminate the concern of racial discrimination, since each applicant's race would be unknown. Hiring directors wouldn't be able to tell who's applying. They would just hear their work.

No one is saying that. People can have unconscious racial bias and there are many forms of racism that aren't the KKK.

 

[Neiteio]

Seriously, the only argument you're making is an age-old one used to diminish the existence of racism in hiring. It's used virtually every time the issue of one or more races being under-represented in an industry comes up - either white people just coincidentally were better (ie, the Oscars), or non-white people in the US just don't try to get these jobs (ie, direction in film and writing in games). I'm not willing to entertain that white people just coincidentally earn the biggest roles so consistently.

I'm arguing for the use of blind auditions, where skin color can't even play a factor in the first place. Blind auditions would achieve what we all want: People hired based on talent, regardless of race (or gender, or orientation, or culture, or creed).

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Is there some hard data on this issue within videogame industry and VA castings? I mean can it be factually shown that black VA talent doesn't get same opportunities as white VA talent does?

His "we don't know facts until facts come in" approach is generally something I agree with. All we have right now is one article and lots of people naming names off the top of their heads as if it's a reliable, valid study on racial inequity in voice acting. I believe there is probably discrimination, and that blind testing would probably help that, but I'm not going to speak authoritatively on a subject where so very little data is at hand.

If it's stats you want, this may not be perfect but it should paint a pretty clear picture.
http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/top-listings/?type=va_roles_single_game
http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/top-listings/?type=va_char_roles

(Full disclosure so it doesn't seem like a shameless plug - I'm an admin on that site, if this is against rules let me know)

It would have been interesting to see how many people would have immediately picked up that it's Laura Bailey, providing they went into the game unaware of this controversy of course.

I recognised her when the Game Award footage came up. Recognized Baker at PSX 2014 immediately too. Just cause I'm familiar with VAs though.

In an ideal world free of racial bias, white people would still get more black roles simply because there are still more white people

Wouldn't that end up creating bias in the first place?

 

[Aaronrules380]

Seriously, the only argument you're making is an age-old one used to diminish the existence of racism in hiring. It's used virtually every time the issue of one or more races being under-represented in an industry comes up - either white people just coincidentally were better (ie, the Oscars), or non-white people in the US just don't try to get these jobs (ie, direction in film and writing in games). I'm not willing to entertain that white people just coincidentally earn the biggest roles so consistently.



And I reiterate - would you say that white people represent a significant portion of lead roles in US releases of games?

And I reiterate: How would mandating that a minority character be played by an actor of the same minority do anything to help that, especially when most leading roles characterwise are also white?

 

[Zomba13]

Seriously, the only argument you're making is an age-old one used to diminish the existence of racism in hiring. It's used virtually every time the issue of one or more races being under-represented in an industry comes up - either white people just coincidentally were better (ie, the Oscars), or non-white people in the US just don't try to get these jobs (ie, direction in film and writing in games). I'm not willing to entertain that white people just coincidentally earn the biggest roles so consistently

But he's saying to just do it blind, to eliminate the thing where people pick white people because they are racist. That way they are only picking the voice talent and not the skin colour. That way everyone is given a fair chance.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Wouldn't that end up creating bias in the first place?

How so? I'll point out that minorities can also be overrepresented in certain areas just as they can be underrepresented. Hence why any college asking for diversity information in a personal statement won't care if you're Jewish despite being a minority, because Jews are an overepresented population in colleges

 

[zsynqx]

Whoops! Got confused, I guess... Are their facial animation handmade? I always though they at least took the actors' expressions and then worked on them

Up till Uncharted 4 yes. Midway through development on Uncharted 4, they adopted face tracking into their pipeline so some of the facial animations will still be hand keyed, but others will have the facial capture solution

 

[SolidSnakex]

Don't think the two are as tightly coupled as you think. Laura Bailey looks nothing like the character she is voice acting and she's probably not doing all the mocap for the character just like hollywood actors have stunt people.

I don't think that's necessarily a fair comparison. If you looking at ND's games, their cutscenes are fairly subdued in terms of what happens in them (although there are obviously action in them). The action is primarily saved for gameplay sequences. So seeing how a person acts is just as important as hearing them for their games. Bailey's gameplay animations may be done by someone else, but her cutscene animations should be largely, if not all, her.

In the TLoU documentary "Grounded," I recall them studying the facial expressions closely from the mocap sessions, but yeah, they're all handcrafted. Pretty amazing.

They're doing a mixture with U4. They now have facial capture so that they aren't always started from scratch. But they're still going back and cleaning up everything by hand the way they always have.

 

[Neiteio]

But he's saying to just do it blind, to eliminate the thing where people pick white people because they are racist. That way they are only picking the voice talent and not the skin colour. That way everyone is given a fair chance.

Exactly.

All I've said is I don't know what is or isn't happening, since I'm not God. But what I -do- know is a blind audition eliminates the possibility of racial discrimination.

So I'm a big proponent of blind auditions, where it's all based purely on talent.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

How so? I'll point out that minorities can also be overrepresented in certain areas just as they can be underrepresented. Hence why any college asking for diversity information in a personal statement won't care if you're Jewish despite being a minority, because Jews are an overepresented population in colleges

Because if white people are the majority and thus get represented proportionately, that means the majority of the opportunities end up being white. Ergo everyone else gets the scraps in comparison. That's why the idea of "proportional representation" is flawed, because one group inherently will reap much greater benefits than everyone else.

No, he is saying to do it blind, and then adding "we don't have proof that the disproportionate representation is because of bias." I entirely understand why people are proposing the blind casting, but trying to claim that the reason we need this is due to anything other than racial bias is absurd.

Yeah, I don't mind the idea of blind auditions, but saying it plus being willfully ignorant of the many biases saying "I can't prove them personally" is the issue I take.

 

[A Link to the Past]

And I reiterate: How would mandating that a minority character be played by an actor of the same minority do anything to help that, especially when most leading roles characterwise are also white?

Did you not answer my question on purpose? If you're not willing to do so, I'll answer it instead. Yes, white actors absolutely have a leg up when it comes to lead roles. They are absolutely more represented there than a mere 60%.

\

But he's saying to just do it blind, to eliminate the thing where people pick white people because they are racist. That way they are only picking the voice talent and not the skin colour. That way everyone is given a fair chance.

No, he is saying to do it blind, and then adding "we don't have proof that the disproportionate representation is because of bias." I entirely understand why people are proposing the blind casting, but trying to claim that the reason we need this is due to anything other than racial bias is absurd.

 

[Pompadour]

In which case, it begs the question of why white people are disproportionately hired for white and non-white roles. It ultimately comes down to the fact that over-representation of a minority group is considered shoehorning, but when it comes to a majority group, there needs to be proof that their over-representation is through bias and not talent/skill.

Well, one thing to consider is that white people, more so than minorities, have support systems that allow them to pursue careers in acting. For instance, if there's more white people from wealthy backgrounds with parents that can support them vs. black people, white people are able to spend more time trying to become a voice actor before having to face reality and getting a regular job. This is pretty common in the entertainment field in general so I don't know why it wouldn't apply to voice acting.