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[killer rin]

I'm a little sad that they chose to exclude police from the parade in the list of demands. You can't fight exclusivity with exclusivity, and the fact that the Toronto Police have always came to these events with respect and dignity shows a model that other police departments can emulate.

Are the police in Canada as bad as the police in America? The no police float surprised me. I thought Canada had its stuff together.
Glad it was a major success, we need to hear this in America.

I didn't know that Canadians hate their police as much as we do in the US. I thought it was going a little better up there.

We have our own brand of problems with the police in Canada, but brutality like can be seen with police from the states isn't one of them

Heres a video from a couple days ago.
Ottawa, Canada Police on Canada Day (1:06)

 

[Kinitari]

I don't think the police thing will go over well with the public, and it looks like both BLM and the pride organizers are realizing that it's something that needs to be addressed. We don't have the same relationship here with police and it looks like, from the general commentary I'm seeing, we don't want to.

Hopefully maybe there can be a townhall with BLM Toronto, or some sort of open community discussion. I feel strongly enough about this that I'd show up and say my piece.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

I don't see why it's unreasonable for a group like BLM to agitate for a pride that's distanced from institutions that perpetuate violence not only against black youth but also against LGBT youth, if not now then certainly in the not so distant past. There's also the current concern about the way law enforcement has been handling crimes specifically against trans-women from Canada's Black and Indigenous communities.

If pride organisers want to have the more revolutionary strain of social protest groups coming on board with their event they kind of just have to fucking deal with requests like that.

 

[knkng]

Is the list of demands an actual contract?

Of course not, but this still makes all sides look foolish. BLM for making an unjustifiable demand, initially defending it, and now backtracking with the uniform stipulation. And of course Pride for agreeing to the list of demands, and then instantly reneging on it, essentially making the whole agreement worthless (it basically makes it seem that they just agreed to the list to get BLM out of the way).

I don't see why it's unreasonable for a group like BLM to agitate for a pride that's distanced from institutions that perpetuate violence not only against black youth but also against LGBT youth, if not now then certainly in the not so distant past. There's also the current concern about the way law enforcement has been handling crimes specifically against trans-women from Canada's Black and Indigenous communities.

If pride organisers want to have the more revolutionary strain of social protest groups coming on board with their event they kind of just have to fucking deal with requests like that.

The Toronto police chief addressed the transgender issue:

“We’re always looking for ways to be progressive,” Saunders said. “We have to get it right.”

Particular work needs to be spent building positive relationships with the transgender community, he said.

“We need to fix that,” Saunders said. “It’s not a one-day-a-year thing.”

I still don't see how that justifies banning positive police presence from the parade, especially since so many of those officers are LGBT themselves. You seem to be applying undue criticisms of violence onto the Toronto police force. They're not perfect, and of course there is always room for improvement, but this ban is nonsensical.

What if a ambulance had to get through that parade protest? BLM is admirable but they need to be more considerate of LBGT ambulances and people going to fireworks

Did you bother to read anything in the articles or thread? The BLM presence was positive and had a positive outcome. It's only a single term of their agreement which has rightfully sparked debate and caused issues on both sides.

 

[kirblar]

I don't see why it's unreasonable for a group like BLM to agitate for a pride that's distanced from institutions that perpetuate violence not only against black youth but also against LGBT youth, if not now then certainly in the not so distant past. There's also the current concern about the way law enforcement has been handling crimes specifically against trans-women from Canada's Black and Indigenous communities.

If pride organisers want to have the more revolutionary strain of social protest groups coming on board with their event they kind of just have to fucking deal with requests like that.

Because you don't change institutions/people by excluding them and refusing to engage with them.

 

[akira28]

well doesn't look like they're refusing to engage them does it?

 

[Kinitari]

well doesn't look like they're refusing to engage them does it?

No, in fact the police have spent quite a bit of time sitting down and talking with representatives from BLM. There was a recent incident where someone was shot and killed by the police and BLM protested, so there was an investigation and that information was released to the public. The investigation highlights no wrong doing.

The point is, this happened because of discourse and respect. You lose that with this sort of exclusion. The police in Toronto are not hated, and this sort of action taken against then is not going to garner any good will. It's senseless idealistic nonsense, if I'm going to be frank. BLM wants to paint the police in a bad light, but it really really isn't coming off that way.

I nonstop complain about this sort of divisive activism, and I think it's doubly senseless here.

 

[Mr.Monitor]

reasonable protest, reasonable demands, reasonable results. not bad 🤔

Edit: as for the police thing I'm not really sure why police floats have any place in a pride parade. I do agree with building solidarity, but why not have a plainclothes float with LGBT officers, instead of still appearing as authority figures?

 

[mdubs]

reasonable protest, reasonable demands, reasonable results. not bad 🤔

Edit: as for the police thing I'm not really sure why police floats have any place in a pride parade. I do agree with building solidarity, but why not have a plainclothes float with LGBT officers, instead of still appearing as authority figures?

I think it's important to see that the institution itself, as represented very visibly by the uniforms, is shown to be in solidarity. You could also look at the picture above to see that they clearly aren't there as "authority figures" in the conventional sense.

 

[BeesEight]

reasonable protest, reasonable demands, reasonable results. not bad 🤔

Edit: as for the police thing I'm not really sure why police floats have any place in a pride parade. I do agree with building solidarity, but why not have a plainclothes float with LGBT officers, instead of still appearing as authority figures?

At least in prior years the police float was filled with LGBT members of the force. Same with the military float. That they walk the parade in uniform helps to show that even those organizations have members too. I'm sure it's nice for the officers to be both proud of themselves and their occupation.

There was no context of authority with their appearance. I highly suspect any members of the force who take issue with Pride would not be anywhere near the event, whether it's marching in the parade or doing standard security.

I'm glad to see Pride not upholding the ban. It's pointlessly exclusionary to other LGBT individuals and allies.

 

[mdubs]

On the subject, here are some pictures of the police presence yesterday in the parade

 

[Bladenic]

Cool, but they shouldn't have agreed to the police float being excluded.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Good to see Canadians joining us in our national pastime "what do we not like about what BLM did."

 

[Infinite]

His reading comprehension is fine. Your inability to discern facts is the problem.

Hop off. I never attempted to establish a fact here. Only said if their relationship with the police is like ours here in America then I don't blame them for not wanting a float of theirs at the parade . You can get out of my face with this righteous indignation.

Good to see Canadians joining us in our national pastime "what do we not like about what BLM did."

Righteous indignation and finger wagging at the smallests of perceived infractions everytime one of these groups do something.

 

[Zips]

BLM should not force out the inclusion of another group. That's just dumb.

Police involvement should continue. You don't bring people and groups together by splitting them apart.

 

[oneils]

It that how their police conduct themselves? Not concern trolling - I literally know nothing about Canadian/ Toronto police. If so then yeah I can see why this is a win.



I'm sure you meant well but that explained nothing about what the situation was before they intervened.



Gotcha. Thought there was something more specific to Tonronto I didn't know was going on. The police thing got me curious to how things are over there.

Toronto police service had a controversial carding system in place. It disproportionately affected people of colour and the tps trotted out the similar defenses that you always hear "we are in the communities that have issues with crime etc"

After public outcry our premier of Ontario (similar to a state governor) banned police services from carding (it may not be an actual ban by law, maybe an order and the order might not ban it definitively it may ask police services to ensure that they are equitable somehow, I don't know all the details).

So some communities are finding it hard to trust the tps.

 

[knkng]

reasonable protest, reasonable demands, reasonable results. not bad 🤔

Edit: as for the police thing I'm not really sure why police floats have any place in a pride parade. I do agree with building solidarity, but why not have a plainclothes float with LGBT officers, instead of still appearing as authority figures?

I know this isn't what you were going for, but saying that they can't appear in uniform is essentially like saying that the LGBT community is not allowed to be represented within a certain organization. They're not there holding billy clubs waiting to crack people over the head. They are participating as LGBT people, and being police officers is part of who they are. What next, "No Catholics, Jew or Muslims allowed in the parade because certain members of those organizations are homophobic!"? (Not to mention that this criticism is incredibly misplaced with the Toronto police anyways)

How about representing inclusiveness from all walks of life?

Good to see Canadians joining us in our national pastime "what do we not like about what BLM did."

Almost as fun as the NeoGAF pastime of "reactionary bullshit statements". I guess people showing support for the legitimate requests doesn't count, though. We must accept it all, BLM is infallible.

Righteous indignation and finger wagging at the smallests of perceived infractions everytime one of these groups do something.

Excluding an entire group of people who have had an extremely positive presence at the Toronto Pride parade simply due to their occupation is a "smallest of perceived infractions"? You people are so quick to bend over backwards to appear politically correct that you don't even realize the level of discrimination you are perpetuating.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

On the subject, here are some pictures of the police presence yesterday in the parade

BLM please let them stay don't be like that

 

[yanipheonu]

Protesting the perceived injustice of a Pride Parade is probably the exact opposite of "Choosing your battles well".

Smells of "screw that issue, look at mine."

Not their complaints aren't necessarily valid, just a poor forum for it. Bad form.

At least the understandable demands are being made, but yeah, disallowing the police seems to miss the point, and shouldn't be followed.

 

[BeesEight]

Good to see Canadians joining us in our national pastime "what do we not like about what BLM did."

Yeah, I agree with you. The focus should be more on the positives of the sit in than the negatives. Protection of black queer support groups, greater diversity in Pride hiring and more focus on transgender and indigenous issues are all fantastic demands that I hope to see Pride address. The police ban is an unnecessary distraction.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I guess people showing support for the legitimate requests doesn't count, though. We must accept it all, BLM is infallible.

No one said this.

It's telling when all threads go on about what they did wrong rather than what they did right.

 

[knkng]

Yeah, I agree with you. The focus should be more on the positives of the sit in than the negatives. Protection of black queer support groups, greater diversity in Pride hiring and more focus on transgender and indigenous issues are all fantastic demands that I hope to see Pride address. The police ban is an unnecessary distraction.

I would agree with you at this point since Pride has stated that they will not be following through with that demand, but it was definitely something that needed to be addressed immediately.

No one said this.

It's telling when all threads go on about what they did wrong rather than what they did right.

Fair enough, but as I said, it needed to be addressed immediately.

 

[Fusebox]

Might wanna change that thread-heading.

"BLM in, Cops out" doesn't make the parade more inclusive it's a zero-sum move.

 

[ahoyhoy]

On the subject, here are some pictures of the police presence yesterday in the parade

This is the kind of stuff that I wish we had in America.

Racial issues in the LGBT community are real but I wish BLM would focus on the community itself rather than use this event to rail on the police up there that seem like comparatively decent actors.

 

[not psycho]

Protesting the perceived injustice of a Pride Parade is probably the exact opposite of "Choosing your battles well".

Unless they are talking about Pride itself:

Over the years, Pride has threatened the existence of Black spaces at Pride. This includes the near extinction of the BQY (Black Queer Youth) stage. the continued threats to Blockorama’s self-management and organizing framework (a space that has existed for 18 years!), the removal of other community stages (ex: South Asian stage), inclusion and hypervisibility of the Police, and a lack of commitment & priority to the various spaces that represent diverse TBLG+ communities. #Blackpride

Having said that, the initial focus on police participation need not be "what do we not like about what BLM did". It's genuinely very important and should be hashed out quickly, as part of the overall conversation.

It can, unfortunately, be used as finger waving fodder, but it doesn't have to be.

 

[akira28]

Good to see Canadians joining us in our national pastime "what do we not like about what BLM did."

well Canadians are nice. And their police are 200x nicer than the police in the United States. Not everybody thinks so, but a majority does, and that's what matters.

 

[Silent Chief]

They did the right thing in agreeing to the demands and now they have a whole year to sort it out and make it inclusive for everyone.

Btw, Toronto has the largest steet festival in North America. It's called Caribana and it's obviously very popular with the black communities. There's been isolated incidents of violence, such as 4 persons being shot in the parade in 96. Nobody's ever been killed by police during the event, so hopefully nobody asks the police to disappear during the parade.

 

[neojubei]

They did the right thing in agreeing to the demands and now they have a whole year to sort it out and make it inclusive for everyone.

Btw, Toronto has the largest steet festival in North America. It's called Caribana and it's obviously very popular with the black communities. There's been isolated incidents of violence, such as 4 persons being shot in the parade in 96. Nobody's ever been killed by police during the event, so hopefully nobody asks the police to disappear during the parade.

whats that have to do with anything?

 

[knkng]

well Canadians are nice. And their police are 200x nicer than the police in the United States. Not everybody thinks so, but a majority does, and that's what matters.

Well, as a gay man who lives in the GTA and has been attending Toronto Pride for about 8 years, I feel more than comfortable fighting to keep the police officers in the parade. They are not there in any official manner, and are simply participating and having a great time along with everybody else. If you have issues with the Toronto police force for whatever reason, I don't see how banning LGBT officers from the parade is any sort of resolution.

But please, I implore you to use this opportunity to tell me about the negative experiences you have had with the LGBT police officers in previous Toronto Pride parades. What is your exact reasoning for defending this ban which is highly discriminatory to the LGBT community?

 

[Kinitari]

No one said this.

It's telling when all threads go on about what they did wrong rather than what they did right.

What's it telling us?

 

[Litan]

Protesting the perceived injustice of a Pride Parade is probably the exact opposite of "Choosing your battles well".

Smells of "screw that issue, look at mine."

Not their complaints aren't necessarily valid, just a poor forum for it. Bad form.

At least the understandable demands are being made, but yeah, disallowing the police seems to miss the point, and shouldn't be followed.

Asking that minorities be more included in lgbt pride parade is saying "screw that issue, look at mine?"
Yeah, okay.

 

[akira28]

Well, as a gay man who lives in the GTA and has been attending Toronto Pride for about 8 years, I feel more than comfortable fighting to keep the police officers in the parade. They are not there in any official manner, and are simply participating and having a great time along with everybody else. If you have issues with the Toronto police force for whatever reason, I don't see how banning LGBT officers from the parade is any sort of resolution.

But please, I implore you to use this opportunity to tell me about the negative experiences you have had with the LGBT police officers in previous Toronto Pride parades. What is your exact reasoning for defending this ban which is highly discriminatory to the LGBT community?

you're asking me? you're in the greater Toronto Area and seems like you're closer to the eye of the storm, so why are you asking me again exactly? And when did this become about lgbt police participating in the parade? I mean if you want to pose those exact questions to the blm lgbt protestors and add their responses, I'd be interested to read them.

 

[knkng]

you're asking me? you're in the greater Toronto Area and seems like you're closer to the eye of the storm, so why are you asking me again exactly? And when did this become about lgbt police participating in the parade? I mean if you want to pose those exact questions to the blm lgbt protestors and add their responses, I'd be interested to read them.

I interpreted your post as being snide and sarcastic, but I may have been mistaken. I apologize if I was out of line. I think this story is too close to me, so I should probably just bail on this thread because I'm getting worked up, lol.

I'll just dip out by saying that I think BLM-TO is one of the best organized BLM movements and know how to get shit done. I'm incredibly happy that they had their demands agreed to so quickly, and will be getting some form of due investment and recognition from future Pride events. That being said, I feel that they made an error with the police ban, and were attempting to apply misplaced punishment onto the wrong community.

However, I am happy that it is now being sorted out and we can move forward with Pride 2017 in an entirely positive light.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Maybe I just haven't noticed some of the news, but besides the streetcar shooting where the officer was in fact charged with attempted murder, aren't the Toronto police pretty solid? I mean, the city pays them a boatload and they probably care about doing their jobs well and hanging onto that.

As it stands, I can't agree with forcing the police float out.

 

[firehawk12]

Speaking of the politics of pride, I haven't followed pride in a while, but have has the whole Israel/Palestine thing calmed down in recent years?

 

[-COOLIO-]

No one said this.

It's telling when all threads go on about what they did wrong rather than what they did right.

Missteps outweighing the good is pretty much the way of the internet. It applies to everything.

 

[prelude514]

I hope there's twice as many officers at next year's parade and 3 floats. Fuck BLM's asinine demand.

 

[Galang]

A bit disappointed in BLM on the police exemption. Idiotic to think that was a great idea

 

[8byte]

I'm sort of confused.

Was the Pride parade exclusionary?

 

[Divvy]

I'm sort of confused.

Was the Pride parade exclusionary?

It's not exclusionary, but it could definitely stand to have better representation

 

[knkng]

I feel like people are forgetting Tent City between BLM and Toronto police.

That didn't happen that long ago...

All these general comments "fuck them for that" are so blahhh

Dammit, I really wanted to stay out of this thread but...

How exactly do you come to the conclusion of punishing Pride Toronto and the LGBT community because of the debatable death of Andrew Loku? Even if we agreeably conclude that the police were wrong in the shooting of Loku, how does that extend to a demand of police banishment from the Pride parade?

 

[Volimar]

 

[Cranster]

BLM are not doing themselves any favors by taking actions like this as it's causing them to loose support. I have a few friends in the Toronto area who are a part of the LGBT community and while they previously supported the organization they are not happy with their actions at the Pride parade.

If Black Lives Matter want to make a positive impact they need to stop this kind of behavior especially in Canada.

 

[Polari]

On the subject, here are some pictures of the police presence yesterday in the parade

Isn't it great to see police participating in pride and embracing the LGBT community?

This is pathetic bullying by Black Lives Matter. The whole way they went about it was typical bullying too.

 

[televator]

On the subject, here are some pictures of the police presence yesterday in the parade

They stopped this? Personally, I think this would be a refreshing change of tone for LEOs here in the states. Police being more inclusive and openly embracing aspects of the communities they serve could only be a very good thing.

 

[Kinitari]

Just to be clear, the pride organizers have repeatedly come out and said over the last day that they will NOT be barring the police from having a float.

https://mobile.twitter.com/CP24/status/750001646999105537

Mathieu Chantelois, executive director of Pride, says Black Lives Matter won't dictate what floats can be in the parade and what ones won't.

 

[televator]

Just to be clear, the pride organizers have repeatedly come out and said over the last day that they will NOT be barring the police from having a float.

https://mobile.twitter.com/CP24/status/750001646999105537

Ah, all good then if all are welcome and blacks get more rep in parade.

 

[excelsiorlef]

BLM are not doing themselves any favors by taking actions like this as it's causing them to loose support. I have a few friends in the Toronto area who are a part of the LGBT community and while they previously supported the organization they are not happy with their actions at the Pride parade.

If Black Lives Matter want to make a positive impact they need to stop this kind of behavior especially in Canada.

They made a positive impact. They are now in a much better position to negotiate with TO Pride to ensure racial minorities are given more of a voice within the community.

A community many BLM TO people are part of, especially specifically the ones who did the sit-in.

Bluntly if a bunch of black activists fighting for their rights and their voice within the queer community by exercising what amounted to a 30 minute delay in a parade is enough for some members of said community to shut them out, those people weren't allies in the first place.

Pride Parade is inherently a political action, to then turn around and shame of bunch of black LGBT folk for taking the opportunity to act politically is hypocritical, shameful and a shinning example for why the sit-in was needed in the first place.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

They made a positive impact.They are now in a much better position to negotiate with TO Pride to ensure racial minorities are given more of a voice within the community.

A community many BLM TO people are part of, especially specifically the ones who did the sit-in.

Bluntly if a bunch of black activists fighting for their rights and their voice within the queer community by exercising what amounted to a 30 minute delay in a parade is enough for some members of said community to shut them out, those people weren't allies in the first place.

Pride Parade is inherently a political action, to then turn around and shame of bunch of black LGBT folk for taking the opportunity to act politically is hypocritical, shameful and a shinning example for why the sit-in was needed in the first place.

Is there even anyone here taking issue with the fact that they delayed the parade?

Everyone is taking issue with the fact that they had a silly demand which seemed to serve no real purpose and would only make the event more exclusive, which flies in the face of their message of inclusivity.

Treating police like some boogeyman and trying to bar their official presence from an event, instead of using said event to work with them is just extremely short-sighted and misguided IMO.
That's just sowing more seeds of distrust and resentment as far as I am concerned. Inclusivty doesn't end at the job fair.

I don't know enough about the other claims of LGBT black spaces being denied or erased by the organizers, so I will just take them at face value and consider it a win for the community.
It's pretty damn disgusting if they were denying certain groups stages or floats in recent years, and I can't imagine why they would in the first place.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

Because you don't change institutions/people by excluding them and refusing to engage with them.

Sure you do. Politics is power and narrative. There is currently general sympathy in favour of "social progress". Toronto pride is an event that makes national headlines. BLM Toronto was trying to make the LGBT movement a stronger actor in solidarity with their own movement. Even if they don't accede to the police demands it:
1. Is the right thing for them do ideologically
2. If accepted would be a strong show of success in terms of the movement's influence
3. If rejected (as long as people hear them out) there's probably going to be increased attention paid to a lack of solidarity with queer individuals of colour within the Broader LGBT movement.

It's really a shame people write them off for having the audacity to actually protest larger events related to their issues instead of staking out a park somewhere.