Support NeoGAF

[excelsiorlef]

Is there even anyone here taking issue with the fact that they delayed the parade?

Everyone is taking issue with the fact that they had a silly demand which seemed to serve no real purpose and would only make the event more exclusive, which flies in the face of their message of inclusivity.

Treating police like some boogeyman and trying to bar their official presence from an event, instead of using said event to work with them is just extremely short-sighted and misguided IMO.
That's just sowing more seeds of distrust and resentment as far as I am concerned. Inclusivty doesn't end at the job fair.

I don't know enough about the other claims of LGBT black spaces being denied or erased by the organizers, so I will just take them at face value and consider it a win for the community.
It's pretty damn disgusting if they were denying certain groups stages or floats in recent years, and I can't imagine why they would in the first place.

The comment I replied to said "their actions at the Pride Parade"

Their actions was the sit in and the call for concessions.

I really doubt that post that I was directly replying to was about just the police. In fact they aren't even mentioned in it.

As it stands the police aren't going to be denied parade floats so that point is basically moot and an excuse to once again ignore all the good BLM does.

Some of the most effective activists in North America today.

 

[TI82]

My brother, a married gay male, told me that there are more gay black people (percentage wise) than any other race. Does anyone know if that's true? It seems to me that homophobia comes more often from the black community than others but that's just an anecdote.

 

[Prax]

Sounds like good things happened!
I'm glad all sides sought for compromise and understanding.

I was, like many others, a bit wary about the demand of excluding police presence in Pride, but it seems like people in charge have kept their heads level. And while considering the demand BLM-TO made, decided police could still have a float or some kind of presence as it served an overall good.

I don't think all political or progressive groups will agree on everything, but I like that dialogue and compromise is able to happen if if there is disruption or frustrations.
This makes me a little bit wistful though.. since Canada's real main struggle is our relations with Indigenous and First Nations people (while the US, it's more the history with blacks and slavery), so I feel like maybe we need more of a Native Lives Matter movement that has similar clout and organization or something. That BLM-TO did give a shoutout to indigenous people gave me more hope though that a spinpoff or similar chapter could spring up for them. I am not really informed on Canadian politics though (lol.. even though I am Canadian. Just that American politics takes up so much more media space i end up knowing more about it than my own!), so maybe something similar already does exist!

 

[Messofanego]

My brother, a married gay male, told me that there are more gay black people (percentage wise) than any other race. Does anyone know if that's true? It seems to me that homophobia comes more often from the black community than others but that's just an anecdote.

Probably has to do with religion. Musicians aren't helping, either.

 

[TI82]

Probably has to do with religion. Musicians aren't helping, either.

Yeah rap music in particular seems really homophobic. It made things really awkward when Frank Ocean is an openly gay artist and part of Odd future (somewhat) but Tyler the Creator has a lot of slurs in his songs. And I've heard his own defenses for it but I don't really accept them.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

The comment I replied to said "their actions at the Pride Parade"

Their actions was the sit in and the call for concessions.

I really doubt that post that I was directly replying to was about just the police. In fact they aren't even mentioned in it.

As it stands the police aren't going to be denied parade floats so that point is basically moot and an excuse to once again ignore all the good BLM does.

Some of the most effective activists in North America today.

I mean I guess they could be angry at the entirety of how things went down.
The post was very vague, and I was giving them the benefit of the doubt on that point.
In the same vein, you automatically assumed that they were taking issue because their event was slightly delayed. Neither of us had enough information to make either assumption really.

I also wouldn't call the entire police float thing a moot point. That's just not how negotiations work. No matter how valid most of your points are, one unreasonable demand will weaken your entire position.
Especially in this case when it really does seem completely unreasonable in the context of everything.

I would just hope that the BLM-TO leaders look at that and realize their mistake and don't try to double down on it. They are already fighting an uphill battle, and being seen as making unreasonable demands isn't going to help.

 

[Infinite]

My brother, a married gay male, told me that there are more gay black people (percentage wise) than any other race. Does anyone know if that's true? It seems to me that homophobia comes more often from the black community than others but that's just an anecdote.

Yeah rap music in particular seems really homophobic. It made things really awkward when Frank Ocean is an openly gay artist and part of Odd future (somewhat) but Tyler the Creator has a lot of slurs in his songs. And I've heard his own defenses for it but I don't really accept them.

Why bring this up in this thread? Anyway, It's very racist to assume that black people are inherently more homophobic than any other group of people. Planet earth has a homophobia and no community is exempt from that yet.

Hip-hop though has particular problem due to hyper masculinity. Rap has misogynistic and homophobic lyrics due to the hyper masculine personas rappers feel they have to put on. Being remotely adjacent to anything feminine is considered weak and not manly as a consequence of hyper masculinity. However there's a lot of rappers who openly support lgbt rights and there's also even a whole community of lgbt rappers doing there thing. So while I recognize there is a problem there it's inaccurate to say that this overwhelmingly the case. Once again planet earth has a hyper masculinity problem and this isn't particularly unique to hiphop at all. The Boondocks had two interesting episodes on this subject however

Lastly black people don't make up a majority portion of the lgbt community however they are more likely to identify as openly gay than any other group of people with Latinos not to far behind. Despite appearances the lgbt community is very diverse and doesn't only consist of well off white people like television seems to show. In fact most lgbt people are poor or close to it.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

reasonable protest, reasonable demands, reasonable results. not bad 🤔

Edit: as for the police thing I'm not really sure why police floats have any place in a pride parade. I do agree with building solidarity, but why not have a plainclothes float with LGBT officers, instead of still appearing as authority figures?

In a world where LGBT are arrested and tortured, where pride parades in places like Jamaica are broken up with tear gas, you can't see what a major victory having uniformed officers in the parade is for the community? It means less if they don't wear the uniform and represent the institution.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

My brother, a married gay male, told me that there are more gay black people (percentage wise) than any other race. Does anyone know if that's true? It seems to me that homophobia comes more often from the black community than others but that's just an anecdote.

There is no way anyone could know that factually.

 

[Volimar]

In a world where LGBT are arrested and tortured, where pride parades in places like Jamaica are broken up with tear gas, you can't see what a major victory having uniformed officers in the parade is for the community? It means less if they don't wear the uniform and represent the institution.

Agree with this. Anything that makes the police part of the community instead of apart from it can only lead to good things.

 

[Slayven]

My brother, a married gay male, told me that there are more gay black people (percentage wise) than any other race. Does anyone know if that's true? It seems to me that homophobia comes more often from the black community than others but that's just an anecdote.

Bullshit

 

[DedValve]

Bullshit

I concur. In my case almost every homophobic attack and drivel towards me came from a religous person. To this day I haven't found a single non-religous or even someone who is but isn't involved in any major organized religion hate me for existing.

However I HAVE seen racism even within my own community and its quite sad. Black folks of the LGBTQ community have it extremely fucking hard. On the off chance that they aren't completely invisible, they are usually just ignored or even victims of racism regardless if the person is straight or gay.

Its something that I hope the community addresses more. Minorities fighting minorities is a sad sight to see.

 

[Vicetrailia]

There's that 121k response gallup poll, but there really isn't much research on racial breakdown. They found the LGBT pop to be just 3.4%.

 

[Kurdel]

In a world where LGBT are arrested and tortured, where pride parades in places like Jamaica are broken up with tear gas, you can't see what a major victory having uniformed officers in the parade is for the community? It means less if they don't wear the uniform and represent the institution.

I agree 100% with this post.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Just to be clear, the pride organizers have repeatedly come out and said over the last day that they will NOT be barring the police from having a float.

https://mobile.twitter.com/CP24/status/750001646999105537

Awesome, are BLM Toronto okay with this?

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

My brother, a married gay male, told me that there are more gay black people (percentage wise) than any other race. Does anyone know if that's true? It seems to me that homophobia comes more often from the black community than others but that's just an anecdote.

Well fuck that anecdote. Not true in the slightest.

 

[comedian]

Well fuck that anecdote. Not true in the slightest.

http://www.*****************/news/a...sexual-people-African-American-community.html

This would suggest otherwise (dailymail article).

 

[Infinite]

Post a source to a banned site brehs

 

[Onemic]

http://www.*****************/news/a...sexual-people-African-American-community.html

This would suggest otherwise (dailymail article).

Daily Mail? Really?

The same Daily Mail that hires people to post articles about how black people are just a bunch of whiners and are the real racists?

 

[Dead Man]

In a world where LGBT are arrested and tortured, where pride parades in places like Jamaica are broken up with tear gas, you can't see what a major victory having uniformed officers in the parade is for the community? It means less if they don't wear the uniform and represent the institution.

Indeed.

 

[Cranster]

They made a positive impact. They are now in a much better position to negotiate with TO Pride to ensure racial minorities are given more of a voice within the community.

A community many BLM TO people are part of, especially specifically the ones who did the sit-in.

Bluntly if a bunch of black activists fighting for their rights and their voice within the queer community by exercising what amounted to a 30 minute delay in a parade is enough for some members of said community to shut them out, those people weren't allies in the first place.

Pride Parade is inherently a political action, to then turn around and shame of bunch of black LGBT folk for taking the opportunity to act politically is hypocritical, shameful and a shinning example for why the sit-in was needed in the first place.

No, they left a negative impression.

 

[Saucy_XL]

No, they left a negative impression.

Disgusting.

Yup

The Toronto police union said it feels betrayed by Pride’s actions and a gay Toronto police officer penned an open letter to Pride about the demand to remove police floats from the parade.

 

[excelsiorlef]

No, they left a negative impression.

"Killing my human rights"

Interesting choice of wordage in the open letter.

You were invited to sit with us, lead our marches, celebrate our.

As if they weren't part of the LGBT movement and LGBT folk were doing them a solid by letting outsiders take part.

Kind of exactly the type of mentality that sparked BLM TO in the first place.

CityNews spoke with Janaya Khan, one of the organizing members of BLM, on Tuesday who said the group was trying to use the shirts as identifiers for those in the protest and that the sale of shirts was limited for that period of time.

But yes that woman had her human rights killed because she couldn't buy a shirt.

 

[Lenz44]

"Killing my human rights"

Interesting choice of wordage in the open letter.

You were invited to sit with us, lead our marches, celebrate our.

As if they weren't part of the LGBT movement and LGBT folk were doing them a solid by letting outsiders take part.

Kind of exactly the type of mentality that sparked BLM TO in the first place.



But yes that woman had her human rights killed because she couldn't buy a shirt.

Even though it's a bit of a dramatic use of words, shouldn't human rights mean you don't get discriminated by the color of your skin? I see what she was trying to say.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

My brother, a married gay male, told me that there are more gay black people (percentage wise) than any other race. Does anyone know if that's true? It seems to me that homophobia comes more often from the black community than others but that's just an anecdote.

This and

Probably has to do with religion. Musicians aren't helping, either.

this

Is why I actually don't even bother with social activism, speaking or other wise. It's also why I basically don't really care to put on my "educated young black male trying to prove to everyone we are more than a stereotype" face on for the daily world anymore.

These posts are what people actually think of black people when it boils down to a topic that involves nuance. Maybe black Toronto gaf is more hopeful that it isn't, but from a rural Ontario black perspective, yeah it is imo.

 

[akira28]

does she still want the t-shirt though?

 

[Fantastical]

I mean I realize I'm a white guy saying this but the "removal of police floats/booths in all Pride marches/parades/community spaces" sticks out like a sore thumb from those demands.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Even though it's a bit of a dramatic use of words, shouldn't human rights mean you don't get discriminated by the color of your skin? I see what she was trying to say.

The language is ridiculous.

The shirts were reserved at the time for the time being for specfic people, for a limited time.

Possibly to ensure they didn't run out, who knows. There's also a massive difference between wanting to sell the shirts to only black identified folk at that time and actual segregation and discrimination.

It's funny she claims she was also denied making a donation, but her open letter says she just left after they told her she couldn't buy a shirt, no mention of being denied a donation. Also other people gave taken to twitter to say that they were able to donate to BLM TO despite being white. Soooooo.

Besides like I said the woman in question clearly views BLM TO as outsiders who were let in as guests to the LGBT community not people who actually live there and are part of ot. So sorry if I'm not crying because she didn't get a shirt.

Killing my human rights. Fucking lol.

Oh and she literally tweeted at and tagged CBC News when she made her first tweet.

This woman was looking for her 15 minutes.

 

[akira28]

The language is ridiculous.

Killing my human rights. Fucking lol.

she kind of did her own sort of kick-push away from BLMTO, and she's so worried about them pushing allies away and making enemies because they wouldn't sell her a t-shirt.

I mean, give me your email address lady, 40 dollars I'll get you a BLM tshirt.

they claim they were using them to identify who was in the protest and who wasn't and she had to go complain on White Twitter with her #blm hashtags just so they knew who was being shamed.

But she's an ally!

 

[excelsiorlef]

she kind of did her own sort of kick-push away from BLMTO, and she's so worried about them pushing allies away and making enemies because they wouldn't sell her a t-shirt.

I mean, give me your email address lady, 40 dollars I'll get you a BLM tshirt.

they claim they were using them to identify who was in the protest and who wasn't and she had to go complain on White Twitter.

See my edit. She also sought out news organizations directly herself. She wanted 15 minutes and of course she got it. Media orgs love the Black folk are the real racists stories. She's also a musician so sweet free plug for her work to!

Her first tweet outright tags two CBC News twitter accounts. She sought out media to cover "her story"

 

[ThisGuy]

The language is ridiculous.

The shirts were reserved at the time for the time being for specfic people, for a limited time.

Possibly to ensure they didn't run out, who knows. There's also a massive difference between wanting to sell the shirts to only black identified folk at that time and actual segregation and discrimination.

It's funny she claims she was also denied making a donation, but her open letter says she just left after they told her she couldn't buy a shirt, no mention of being denied a donation. Also other people gave taken to twitter to say that they were able to donate to BLM TO despite being white. Soooooo.

Besides like I said the woman in question clearly views BLM TO as outsiders who were let in as guests to the LGBT community not people who actually live there and are part of ot. So sorry if I'm not crying because she didn't get a shirt.

Killing my human rights. Fucking lol.

It's gotta be frustrating seeing what should be a positive thread turn out like this. I figured once the police thing was answered we'd focus on what America is doing wrong and Canada is doing right.

 

[akira28]

well her human rights were violated. I would have called the CBC too.

check your fucking t-shirt privilege, black people.

 

[Volimar]

I mean I realize I'm a white guy saying this but the "removal of police floats/booths in all Pride marches/parades/community spaces" sticks out like a sore thumb from those demands.

I think that's the sticking point for most people. The rest of the demands seem beneficial, though for the life of me, I don't understand how BLM expected him to be in a position to just say yes to all of them right then and there. Budget concerns alone would make such a guarantee improbable at best.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It's gotta be frustrating seeing what should be a positive thread turn out like this. I figured once the police thing was answered we'd focus on what America is doing wrong and Canada is doing right.

Frustrating yep.

Surprising? Nope.

People will clutch at anything to discredit BLM.

 

[ryan-ts]

I wanted to read more about the lack of funding for Black LGBTQ initiatives that was brought up in a couple interviews. Are there any articles out there with concrete numbers about how poorly they're being treated in Toronto?

 

[Ivan 3414]

Yeah rap music in particular seems really homophobic. It made things really awkward when Frank Ocean is an openly gay artist and part of Odd future (somewhat) but Tyler the Creator has a lot of slurs in his songs. And I've heard his own defenses for it but I don't really accept them.

It's 2016 and rap music is about as homophobic as any other genre. Stop this. And Tyler the Creator hardly supports this narrative.

 

[Cybit]

Anyway, It's very racist to assume that black people are inherently more homophobic than any other group of people. Planet earth has a homophobia and no community is exempt from that yet.

data is racist?

If you're looking at the US...you may want to be careful about where you go with this. Not enough to claim straight out that any one race is more homophobic, but there's a pretty brutal truth that currently exists in the US when it comes to support for gay marriage.

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

Gay marriage acceptance rate by year by race, USA

Year White Black
2001 34% 32%
2003 32% 28%
2004 31% 21%
2005 37% 27%
2006 35% 25%
2007 38% 26%
2008 41% 26%
2009 37% 29%
2010 44% 30%
2011 49% 36%
2012 49% 40%
2013 50% 38%
2014 53% 42%
2015 58% 39%
2016 57% 42%

Not much recent data (2015-2016) on Asian Americans or Hispanics that I could find.

I suspect the real reason has way more to do with religiousness of various races in the US, and how religiosity correlates much higher than race.

As for LGBT by race

http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/special-report-adults-identify-lgbt.aspx (2012 data)

Nonwhites are more likely than white segments of the U.S. population to identify as LGBT. The survey results show that 4.6% of African-Americans identify as LGBT, along with 4.0% of Hispanics and 4.3% of Asians. The disproportionately higher representation of LGBT status among nonwhite population segments corresponds to the slightly below-average 3.2% of white Americans who identified as LGBT.

EDIT: Removed unnecessary snark.

 

[Tuck]

Stopping the parade was kind of a dick move, since they were invited to lead the parade. But probably a good call.

Pride is great because it shows just how many people these days are pro LGBT. Its a big celebration. But thats also its downfall. Its lost its political roots - the Mayor of Toronto even said recently "Pride should try to avoid becoming too political." Wdf? It is supposed to be political. I feel like a lot of people enjoy pride these days for the party, rather than what the party represents.

BLM has a point. Being a gay white man is drastically different than being a gay black man. Sure, the white guys don't have it easy per se. But racism is rampant in the gay community. Go download Grindr. You'll see.

BLM showed up and was protesting specifically about Black LGBT members. They were probably the only ones in the parade who were actively fighting for a cause, rather than celebrating a cause many deem to have already been won. They issues they brought up *were* relevant to the Pride Parade, because they were focusing on Black LGBT members. Thats a good thing. Because that segment of the community doesn't get the same attention the white guys get.

All that said, making the Pride leader sign some document to get the parade moving again was a bad move. Obviously he is going to sign it and backtrack later. Having a conversation about the issues is good. Forcing someone to sign a document under duress is not. Also the part about the police is BS. Obviously the parade needs a police presence - its a giant fucking target. And I think its a good thing that theToronto Police are so actively pro-gay these days. Sure there are issues, but an outright ban? No way.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I wanted to read more about the lack of funding for Black LGBTQ initiatives that was brought up in a couple interviews. Are there any articles out there with concrete numbers about how poorly they're being treated in Toronto?

This is their statement

This article has some of that information

http://www.dailyxtra.com/toronto/ne...atter-torontos-effective-lgbt-movement-191488

Mostly about why they distrust police.


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=516999381828890&id=313499695512194

In regards to their mural protest.

The fucking artist started an all lives matter chant. Jesus.

Some tidbits to mull on:

-Out of all the actions & hate-filled people we have encountered, Our organizers, many of whom are LGBT-identified, have rate felt such vile hate, as we did when a bunch of white LGBT folks were shouting "all lives matter" at our protestors, and other chants with the intention of taunting and riling up our peeps

-The artist of the Police/LGBT Mural was one of the people who started said chant and taunting. How fitting that he, who was tasked with creating a fantasy of good relations between the police and the LGBT community, showed his anti-black racism.

In the conversation re: Policing and LGBT spaces, which voices are missing? Who gets to be safe? Whose voices get to be amplified?

Where is the outrage for the surveilled, harassed, and criminalized LGBT Black & Indigenous community members?

For the countless LGBT people, from various vulnerable communities, whose presence at Pride will be compromised by increased surveillance/policing?

Who've been terrorized by TAVIS?

Whose spaces in Pride have been jeopardized (Fruitloopz, BQY-Black Queer Youth stage, etc.)

Whose constant presence (and brilliance) are undermined by a community hat is increasingly white, middle class, and apolitical?

Say it with us:
#AllBlackLivesMatter #BlackQueerLivesMatter #BlackTransLivesMatter

The rest is hard to find right now and I imagine a lot of is local/behind closed doors/off line stuff.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

data is racist?

If you're looking at the US...you may want to be careful about where you go with this. Not enough to claim straight out that any one race is more homophobic, but there's a pretty brutal truth that currently exists in the US when it comes to support for gay marriage.

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/



Not much recent data (2015-2016) on Asian Americans or Hispanics that I could find.

I suspect the real reason has way more to do with religiousness of various races in the US, and how religiosity correlates much higher than race.

As for LGBT by race

http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/special-report-adults-identify-lgbt.aspx (2012 data)



EDIT: Removed unnecessary snark.

Keep the snark in, it shows intent.

And also, this is Canada, not the US. Any Canadian specific reports you wanna pull?

Its funny though, when black people were slaves, religion was all they had to hold on too and it was a religion formed largely through indoctrination. Now in 2016, that we have solved all our race issues and everything is peachy, its the religious blacks holding the LGBT community back. Ironic.

And yes, there is a very racial bias and finger pointing involved in this point you are trying to make. It's entirely transparent.

 

[MrCunningham]

They don't kill as many people, but I am sure there's still a ton of problems with racism and racial profiling. Canada has a larger native population (percentage wise) than the US, and the treatment that Native Canadians have received in the past few decades hasn't been very good.

Only in the past few decades? I grew up in a small town in BC where 25-30% of its population is first nation, and and this has always been a recurring issue.

 

[Cybit]

Keep the snark in, it shows intent.

And also, this is Canada, not the US. Any Canadian specific reports you wanna pull?

Snark about the difference between correlation and causation isn't super helpful, which is why I removed it.

The post initially did not reference being Canadian specific, and I was unable to find useful Canadian data. 80% of Canadians support gay marriage, so I suspect the differences between races will not be high. Canada also had a divergence between religious authorities in the country versus adherents when it came to the issue, hence my suspicions that any racial disparities between support of gay marriage is probably linked to disparities in percentage that are of an abrahamic religion + how fervent of a believer they are.

I.e. Correlation != Causation

Keep the snark in, it shows intent.

And also, this is Canada, not the US. Any Canadian specific reports you wanna pull?

Its funny though, when black people were slaves, religion was all they had to hold on too and it was a religion formed largely through indoctrination. Now in 2016, that we have solved all our race issues and everything is peachy, its the religious blacks holding the LGBT community back. Ironic.

And yes, there is a very racial bias and finger pointing involved in this point you are trying to make. It's entirely transparent.

Double edit: saw clarification below.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Snark about the difference between correlation and causation isn't super helpful, which is why I removed it.

The post initially did not reference being Canadian specific, and I was unable to find useful Canadian data. 80% of Canadians support gay marriage, so I suspect the differences between races will not be high. Canada also had a divergence between religious authorities in the country versus adherents when it came to the issue, hence my suspicions that any racial disparities between support of gay marriage is probably linked to disparities in percentage that are of an abrahamic religion + how fervent of a believer they are.

I.e. Correlation != Causation.

"BLM Activists have a Sit-In at Toronto Pride to Fight for a More Inclusive Pride"

Toronto, the third biggest city in North America :/ You think we were talking about the US? Actually? Sure okay.

And over 50% of Canada's black community lives in the 3 largest metropolitan's in the country (Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal) which are far far more liberal than the rural areas and than of America. Especially in which a very large portion lives in the south which both has a large black population and is also the most religious portion of the country.

But really, this is a thread about Canada and those statements are very rooted in racism unless you wanna come out and give some Canadian based facts. Cause as a black Canadian I really am not trying to hear that then see American stats used followed by back pedaling. Would you?

Only in the past few decades? I grew up in a small town in BC where 25-30% of its population is first nation, and and this has always been a recurring issue.

Canada's treatment of its first nation's population is fucking disgusting. And the worst part is the vanilla racism is literally ingrained in people where they feel they can say any stupid bullshit and it's suddenly okay because "oh we are just talking about natives"

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I'll just keep looking at the data.

We're talking about Canada, what data are you looking at? If there is no ill will just post a valid source. If you aren't going to post data relating to the country of the topic at hand but the undertone of your post is "data isn't racist, blacks are more homophobic" how exactly should that be taken? What do you think that implies? Honest question. How do you think that looks?

Forget your intentions, as a black Canadian someone just said we are more homophobic without a source and you come to the person's rescue with an American source. That wouldn't annoy you?

Edit: Well fuck, now we just editing a bunch. I think we are good.

 

[Cybit]

"BLM Activists have a Sit-In at Toronto Pride to Fight for a More Inclusive Pride"

Toronto, the third biggest city in North America :/ You think we were talking about the US? Actually? Sure okay.

And over 50% of Canada's black community lives in the 3 largest metropolitan's in the country (Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal) which are far far more liberal than the rural areas and than of America. Especially in which a very large portion lives in the south which both has a large black population and is also the most religious portion of the country.

But really, this is a thread about Canada and those statements are very rooted in racism unless you wanna come out and give some Canadian based facts. Cause as a black Canadian I really am not trying to hear that then see American stats used followed by back pedaling. Would you?

I thought the response Infinite had was to someone commenting from their US friend that anecdotally they had trouble with African Americans and homophobia. If it was a Canadian friend; then my bad.

As for religiosity vs homosexual acceptance - the point I'm trying to make is that it's not particularly a black thing or Canadian thing - it's a fairly universal thing

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/#fn-27120-1

There is a strong relationship between a country’s religiosity and opinions about homosexuality.2 There is far less acceptance of homosexuality in countries where religion is central to people’s lives – measured by whether they consider religion to be very important, whether they believe it is necessary to believe in God in order to be moral, and whether they pray at least once a day.

Less Tolerance for Homosexuality in More Religious Countries

There are some notable exceptions, however. For example, Russia receives low scores on the religiosity scale, which would suggest higher levels of tolerance for homosexuality. Yet, just 16% of Russians say homosexuality should be accepted by society. Conversely, Brazilians and Filipinos are considerably more tolerant of homosexuality than their countries’ relatively high levels of religiosity would suggest.

In Israel, where views of homosexuality are mixed, secular Jews are more than twice as likely as those who describe themselves as traditional, religious or ultra-Orthodox to say homosexuality should be accepted (61% vs. 26%); just 2% of Israeli Muslims share this view.

So if you want to generally know how prejudiced a given subsection of your population is against homosexuals - see how religious they are.

Gonna reply with that much for now, let me see if I can dig some public studies that are Canada specific. It's worth noting that Canada is a tiny bit of an outlier on the religiosity versus acceptance scale in the same way that the US is; they are both about 10 points higher on acceptance compared to what they "should" (loosely) be at based on their religiosity. As what is probably not a coincidence; the US and Canada second and third on jumps towards homosexual acceptance with an eleven point and ten point jump respectively.

We're talking about Canada, what data are you looking at? If there is no ill will just post a valid source. If you aren't going to post data relating to the country of the topic at hand but the undertone of your post is "data isn't racist, blacks are more homophobic" how exactly should that be taken? What do you think that implies? Honest question. How do you think that looks?

Forget your intentions, as a black Canadian someone just said we are more homophobic without a source and you come to the person's rescue with an American source. That wouldn't annoy you?

Edit: Well fuck, now we just editing a bunch. I think we are good.

lol we type too fast. no hard feelings man, lol. I wrote that edit; then saw your response and was like "OH CRAP THATS WHAT WAS MEANT" and edited mine lol.

I think there's a super interesting hypothesis that you might be able to answer at least half of anecdotally.

So, you saw a ten point rise (roughly) in both Canadian and US acceptance of homosexuality in six years (2007-2013); which is almost the precise amount of difference between those countries and where they would be on the best fitted line. From what the breakdown of how they did the analysis, the line shouldn't be disproportionately weighted by a country's size or population (as best as I can tell).

Does that mean the big change in the US (and Canada) is that people have separated their religious beliefs from their beliefs about accepting homosexuals? If so, does that mean that's a potential method to use for other social movements that have a similar negative correlation between how religious people are and progress? I guess I'd ask the Canadians in the thread if they at least think that their more religious friends are just as religious but more accepting of homosexuals, and if so, what was their thought process? Basically, rather than going on them for following their religious beliefs, point out how their religious beliefs are often compatible with XYZ social point (as a Christian, I am fairly convinced you can make darn well near any argument and tie it to Christianity) and work it that way?

 

[Cybit]

EDIT: added post to initial reply

 

[akira28]

I thought the response Infinite had was to someone commenting from their US friend that anecdotally they had trouble with African Americans and homophobia. If it was a Canadian friend; then my bad.


So if you want to generally know how prejudiced a given subsection of your population is towards homosexuals - see how religious they are.

hmm?

hmmm..

 

[Montresor]

Awesome, are BLM Toronto okay with this?

Honestly? Fuck them. This isn't the USA where police systemically and disproportionately arrest and kill blacks. I don't understand why BLM is asking for police to stay away from an LGBT Pride parade.

I've never heard of police in Canada performing systemic abuse against minorities. We have our problems but can someone explain to me why something like this would have been started in the first place? I'm glad to change my mind and admit my ignorance if proven wrong, if proven BLM Toronto has a leg to stand on. But it just looks like an insanely dumb decision and demand from them. It is so so shitty to try to ban police from attending and embracing the Pride parade. That's making things less inclusive, not more inclusive.

 

[Cybit]

hmm?

hmmm..

I saw this post

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=209185168&postcount=155

and then saw http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=209189577&postcount=160

and then remembered some work we had done in '08 about shifting US demographics and potential pitfalls regarding some of our stances and how they could split what were currently fairly solid voting blocs against us (this is US based, democratic party). The three I remember working on were

1) African-Americans & Gay Rights
2) Hispanics & Abortion
3) Asian-Americans & Affirmative Action when it came to education

I remembered that when looked at purely on a race level, it initially appeared that there was a correlation between race and a non Democratic Party view on all of these three issues, but for the first two, we found a stronger correlation between religion and the view. If you took the same data set and filtered by purely religion and threw race out, the races weren't super far apart on views

http://www.pewforum.org/2014/05/07/chapter-9-social-and-political-views/

There are some outliers, but it was a potentially misleading belief and could lead to the wrong conclusions. The difference racially appears to be a heavy function of the difference religiously, rather than race being any kind of causative factor. So I wanted to point out

a) be careful when making that claim, because initial research could lead to a conclusion that isn't totally true.

b) correlation != causation.

Also: I just noticed this post which was basically the tl;dr version. Doh. >_<

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=209185645&postcount=157

As for BLM-TO; having been involved with BLM Seattle for a little bit at the outset; if they got their message across and didn't piss too many people off (you'll always piss people off; it's the great truth of life) - good for them. (Seattle had this "plan" to rush Clinton on a stage and demand the mic. It took me a while to convince them that rushing someone suddenly on stage who has Secret Service protection and has had credible threats on her life for nearly 25 years might not be the best idea)

I sort of think the police float was a bit of a power play that went too far. If you're a black gay cop...you are basically being told you don't exist / you don't matter - which is probably not what you want to do if your concern is inclusion.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I've never heard of police in Canada performing systemic abuse against minorities.

Given this countries large native population I dunno how you could seriously believe that.

But for 1 take carding in Toronto (and Hamilton though their police department lied that they did it), a disproportionate number of black and brown people were carded compared to the city's population. The police chief was ready to die on a hill to protect carding.

There is one off the top of my head. Hell I was reading an article where a judge said the criminal justice system is unfairly harsh on blacks and that is why he was giving this person a chance with an easier punishment. The amount of federally incsrcersted black inmates has risen 80% in the last decade. That just a coincidence?

Canada doesn't have a problem with disproportionate killing of blacks by the hands of the police. But if you think our institutions don't exhibit the same racial biases you'll find in America. . .you are wrong.

We have our problems but can someone explain to me why something like this would have been started in the first place? I'm glad to change my mind and admit my ignorance if proven wrong, if proven BLM Toronto has a leg to stand on. But it just looks like an insanely dumb decision and demand from them. It is so so shitty to try to ban police from attending and embracing the Pride parade. That's making things less inclusive, not more inclusive.

I don't agree with the demand of no police float. I don't think it serves a purpose that the police do not engage in this particular event. I think the police saying "we stand with the LGBT community as an organization is very positive.

But I find that there is a genuine problem that people actually give more of a shit about a police presence than a minority presence. I say this all the time. Police can take off their uniforms any time they want and act as normal citizens. They can attend the parade as regular people if they want.

Minorities can't just go white and not be noticed. Its for life. Their experience in the LGBT community is going to be forever highlighted by not being white. There is still a big race problem in that community according to people of color in it. So I'm far far less concerned with police as an organization complaining about this demand. The police shouldnt have a bigger showing than the minority groups. Isnt that backwards as fuck?

Policing is a job. Its not an identity or an unchangeable core component of who you are. Its not like your race or your sexual orientation at all. The comparisons of exclusion are not apt. It's basically the equivalent of "blue lives matter" in response to "black lives matter".

However as a minority though not gay so I can't fully understand, personally, I'm not gonna die on the hill of trying to make people understand this point. I don't think it matters vs accomplishing the bsse goals of BLM.