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[Beelzebufo]

any idea on who's the guy in the first cutscene? He's similar to Gehrman but he's clearly not the same guy as the Gehrman you see/fight in the Hunter's dream.


how do you actually get there though? Flying horses?

He's a member of the Choir at any rate. He could be Ludwig, could be Arch, could be Laurence. Could be whatever transforms/impersonates Iosafka since her attacks afterwards could be seen as a member of the Choir, but I'm of the mind that it's an alien impersonating her somehow.

Is Master Willem brain dead or something?

Nah, he tells you what to do next. I was under the impression he was just too old, like only Rom was keeping him alive.

 

[Raven Prime]

Is Master Willem brain dead or something?

Ahhhhhhhh aahhhhhh.

Has someone tried the make contact gesture on him?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Speaking of Rom, his spider adds drop Madman Knowledge's.

So I guess we know what happened to all the students and other members of the facility.

 

[Uthred]

how do you actually get there though? Flying horses?

*Spooky* flying horses of course. Or perhaps all physical areas are their own seperate dreams/realms, Annalise maintains Cainhurst so you're entering her dream, but probably spooky ghost horses

Is Master Willem brain dead or something?

He may be suffering the results of failing or succeeding to ascend - "Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes. The only choice, he knew, if man were to ever match Their greatness." -Iosefka

 

[Coconut]

Speaking of Rom, his spider adds drop Madman Knowledge's.

So I guess we know what happened to all the students and other members of the facility.

They lived long prosperous lives after leaving Yarnham and weren't turned into spiders?

 

[Beelzebufo]

*Spooky* flying horses of course. Or perhaps all physical areas are their own seperate dreams/realms, Annalise maintains Cainhurst so you're entering her dream, but probably spooky ghost horses

He may be suffering the results of failing or succeeding to ascend - "Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes. The only choice, he knew, if man were to ever match Their greatness." -Iosefka

That's kind of interesting that that cord ends up in Iosafka's clinic too now that I think about.

Also, yeah I guess if you went to Byrgenwyrth you're either a spider or a creepy ghost lol. That makes sense too since we know from Patches and Mergo's Loft that people can turn into spiders.

What makes Rom so vacuous? Was his mind aborted?

 

[Rymuth]

Finally finished reading this whole thread. Ya'll doing the (Old) God's work. Shout out to Marcel and OddMorsel.

I love how unabashedly people say 'Aliens'. I know it's true, but saying it in such a blunt manner about a Souls game really tickles my funny bone. Ahh, Miyazaki, you mad genius. I love this game.

One thing I was hung up on, I really thought Gehrman and Ludwig were the same person since they were both referred to as 'The First Hunter' and Gehrman took ages to tell you his name "My name is..............." like he was trying to come up with a fake name on the spot.

But apparently, I was wrong.

He's seen shit man, too much shit.

This made me howl in laughter for minutes.

 

[Uthred]

That's kind of interesting that that cord ends up in Iosafka's clinic too now that I think about.

It doesnt so much end up in Iosefka's clinic as you kill the pregnant Iosefka Impostor, cut open her stomach and slice the cord off her stillborn Great One baby, or you know, kill mob get yellow glowing ball of item

 

[zennyzz]

It doesnt so much end up in Iosefka's clinic as you kill the pregnant Iosefka Impostor, cut open her stomach and slice the cord off her stillborn Great One baby, or you know, kill mob get yellow glowing ball of item

Why do people call Iosefka an imposter? What's to lead one to believe that in any capacity?

 

[Uthred]

Why do people call Iosefka an imposter? What's to lead one to believe that in any capacity?

The games credits? The change in her behaviour and appearance/armament as well. It was all hashed out a page or two back.

Edit: Around Jaeger's post here - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=158492329&postcount=774

 

[Beelzebufo]

Why do people call Iosefka an imposter? What's to lead one to believe that in any capacity?

The credits say "Imposter Doctor" she changes and gets a weapon after you beat Gascoigne.

Finally finished reading this whole thread. Ya'll doing the (Old) God's work. Shout out to Marcel and OddMorsel.

I love how unabashedly people say 'Aliens'. I know it's true, but saying it in such a blunt manner about a Souls game really tickles my funny bone. Ahh, Miyazaki, you mad genius. I love this game.

One thing I was hung up on, I really thought Gehrman and Ludwig were the same person since they were both referred to as 'The First Hunter' and Gehrman took ages to tell you his name "My name is..............." like he was trying to come up with a fake name on the spot.

But apparently, I was wrong.


This made me howl in laughter for minutes.

Ludwig was the first Church Hunter. Hunters started in general when Gehrman teamed up with the moon.

 

[Karsticles]

After Father Gasciogne? Hmm. Is there something that happens to trigger the event...?

But wait, the game says in item descriptions that no one had any idea where the Ashen Plague came from or it's origins. The antidote text description says



and then there's the fact that Beast Blood seems to give you Beastly qualities and the Church banned it as it was evidenced in the Beast Blood Pellets



So is Beast Blood the Old Blood? Or is it maybe Pthumerian blood? I don't think it's Old Ones blood but it's possible.

Beast Blood as Old Blood makes a lot of sense. Especially since the church doesn't trust it, and they are infatuated with Great One Blood.

I'm on layer 3 on final Pthumerian Chalice Dungeon and i found an item on a corpse.It's name is "Old Great One Coldblood" and just gives you a lot of Blood Echoes.

The description says that it's a relic containing the blood echoes of an old Great One.

So

Coldblood = blood from a Great One

Paleblood = blood from Pthumerians (Pthumerian Descendant,Yharnam,etc, since they are a pale vampire-like race)

Old Blood = ???

Old Blood = beasts.

Why do people call Iosefka an imposter? What's to lead one to believe that in any capacity?

The ending credits list "Doctor Iosefka" and "Imposter Doctor" as two different characters. At one time, she was murdered, though it's all very subtle.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Wait, why would Cold Blood be from the great ones? Don't normal enemies drop that? Not Kin Coldblood, but still.

And is the "Yharnam Blood" given to you Pthumerians blood or what?

 

[Coconut]

He's seen shit man, too much shit.



Edit: Also quoting for new page, hopefully someone can either crush this theory or reaffirm it so the thought process doesn't bug me all day.

If they are things that we are experiencing that have already happened there wouldn't be much of game to play and there shouldn't be three different endings there would be only one since everything has already happened.

 

[Uthred]

Beast Blood as Old Blood makes a lot of sense. Especially since the church doesn't trust it, and they are infatuated with Great One Blood.

Old Blood = beasts.

Not sure about the Old Blood = Beastblood thing holding up, I've a feeling there was an explicit reference to Old Blood being a synonm for Great One blood but cant recall it unfortunately. However in terms of the idea that the plague of beasts could be due to blood ministrations concentraing blood echoes which are memores of atavistic human instinct i.e. the inner beast the name Old Blood would seem fitting.

I dont think the church banning something can be taken at face value as the church disapproving of it. While the church are clearly pushing for post-human advancement they also seem to have a fairly rigid hierarchy, with the Choir, who are the frontline of post-human wonkiness it seems at the top. So if the Old Blood was Great One blood it would make sense for the church to forbid it so they could keep it away from the filthy dumb ordinaries and save it for its Insightful leadership.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Old Blood sounds like it should be Pthumerians to me, because they're old. A note suggests "Paleblood" has to do with the Moon, not Pthumerians.

Oedon is probably connected to one or the other too.

 

[zennyzz]

Reading back a bit, I'm not exactly sold on beasts being opposed to the great old ones. There's just a lot in the lore that suggest otherwise.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Reading back a bit, I'm not exactly sold on beasts being opposed to the great old ones. There's just a lot in the lore that suggest otherwise.

You think? It certainly seems to be opposites I would say. Like becoming a Great One means being detached from emotion (Vacuous Rom) and being able to see a lot, while being super emotional turns you into a beast. Like they're not fighting each other I don't think, but they appear to be opposites in terms of people, yeah?

You do find werewolves in Upper Cathy though.

 

[Coconut]

What if old blood isn't literal blood but like the term meaning long lineage? Like " oh them they are old blood they've bern around this town for awhile.". I forget does the church have issue with the former residents of Cainhurst Castle?

 

[Aztechnology]

If they are things that we are experiencing that have already happened there wouldn't be much of game to play and there shouldn't be three different endings there would be only one since everything has already happened.

The different endings would be dependent on how much knowledge you've gained, which is why they are directly tied to umbilical cords, and not how much of the optional content you've finished. But yea I guess so, I still think the hunt is to find one worthy of ascension though.

But yea I do see how the whole memories concept couldn't work. I'm just grasping at straws.

 

[Uthred]

Reading back a bit, I'm not exactly sold on beasts being opposed to the great old ones. There's just a lot in the lore that suggest otherwise.

Could you expand on this a bit? Based on the mechanics and several of the items quoted on the last page or two there seems to be a fair amount of textual evidence supporting it

Edit: Also quoting for new page, hopefully someone can either crush this theory or reaffirm it so the thought process doesn't bug me all day.

If everything had already come to pass then that means one of the endings would have had to occured before we took the blood wouldnt it? Considering you die in one ending and ascend to post-human wormhood in the other you'd be in no shape to get blood injected into you as you'd already be dead (Kenshiro would be so proud), already in the dream or already a super-powered alien (Ultraman would be so proud). Similarly if its all memories Rom would have been defeated so wouldnt Yharnam be covered in wiggly headed building squatters and such?

If its memories then it doesnt seem to mesh too well with the sliver of the real world we see Wheels in at the beginning. Unless you want to posit that its manufactured memories, in essence the entirety of the game post transfusion is a mental trial designed to find someone worthy of ascension, if people come seeking the paleblood what theyre seeking is a shot at the trial so it is a memory in that you recall it, but a) it has real consequences and b) its a memory of something that didnt happen. "Its all a memory" seems to face the same issues as "Its all a dream", in that its hard to prove or disprove but ultimately feels a little academic in that it doesnt really answer any presseing questions (though the memory angle ties in better with how blood echoes function)

 

[Beelzebufo]

What if old blood isn't literal blood but like the term meaning long lineage? Like " oh them they are old blood they've bern around this town for awhile.". I forget does the church have issue with the former residents of Cainhurst Castle?

They definitely have an issue with Vilebloods, but everything about that place and those covenants is so detached from literally everything else that I doubt that's it.

 

[Coconut]

The different endings are dependent on how much knowledge you've gained, which is why they are directly tied to umbilical cords, and not how much of the optional content you've finished. But yea I guess so, I still think the hunt is to find one worthy of ascension though.

If they are memories then why would they none of these players have a memory of Yarnham before its fall. All this takes place after the fall of Yarnham.

 

[zennyzz]

You think? It certainly seems to be opposites I would say. Like becoming a Great One means being detached from emotion (Vacuous Rom) and being able to see a lot, while being super emotional turns you into a beast. Like they're not fighting each other I don't think, but they appear to be opposites in terms of people, yeah?

You do find werewolves in Upper Cathy though.

There's just a lot to suggest otherwise.

the Ashen blood originates in Old Yharnam.

Old Yharnam holds the Pthumeru Chalice discovered in the tomb of the Gods

Chalices are explicitly objects used for worship of the gods.

And Amydala holds another chalice. Which refers to Loran, another city that fell to beasthood. And there's a lot of runes that suggests beasts also find their origins from the tomb of the gods.

I mean beasthood may be a failsafe, but it's possible that it's just one of the very many side effects of fucking with those things.

 

[Aztechnology]

Unless you want to posit that its manufactured memories, in essence the entirety of the game post transfusion is a mental trial designed to find someone worthy of ascension, if people come seeking the paleblood what theyre seeking is a shot at the trial so it is a memory in that you recall it, but a) it has real consequences and b) its a memory of something that didnt happen. "Its all a memory" seems to face the same issues as "Its all a dream", in that its hard to prove or disprove but ultimately feels a little academic in that it doesnt really answer any presseing questions (though the memory angle ties in better with how blood echoes function)

That's basically what I was inferring. You just did it better than myself. Memory even if I quoted it for loose interpretation (Insight and Knowledge of things unseen) probably wasn't the right word to use. It's all speculation for me at this point as I haven't spent the time needed to really dig through all of the items, notes and locations to try and piece it together. But it would help explain a lot of things.

Edit: Regardless, even the worst interpretations, such as mine can help others to shape and refine their own, so I don't think it's without merit. So thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

[Uthred]

That's basically what I was inferring. You just did it better than myself. Memory even if I quoted it for loose interpretation (Insight and Knowledge of things unseen) probably wasn't the right word to use. It's all speculation for me at this point as I haven't spent the time needed to really dig through all of the items, notes and locations to try and piece it together. But it would help explain a lot of things.

Edit: Regardless, even the worst interpretations, such as mine can help others to shape and refine their own, so I don't think it's without merit. So thank you for taking the time to respond.

I dont think theres any bad or good interpretations, we all just put forward what we think, try and support it and a vague picture sort of forms. Which is where the fun is really. In a way the official lore chapter is going to kill a lot of that. I do much prefer the idea of it all being manufactured memories rather than a flatout dream, reminds of Dark City and such.

There's just a lot to suggest otherwise.

the Ashen blood originates in Old Yharnam.

Old Yharnam holds the Pthumeru Chalice discovered in the tomb of the Gods

Are you suggesting that the Pthumeru chalice is responsible for the ashen plague? Just because A came from B and C was there doesnt really suggest a causal link between A and C

Chalices are explicitly objects used for worship of the gods.

The only thing the game tells us regarding chalices and gods is that a chalice can be used to open the labyrinth of the gods:

"Ritual chalice found in the Church of the Good Chalice.
Use in a ritual at the tomb altar in the Hunter's Dream to break the seal of the old underground labyrinth.
Let the chalice reveal the tomb of the gods; let blood be the hunter's nourishment.
...And let ye partake in communion... "

Nothing there about worship, unless its one of the other chalices that mention it?

And Amydala holds another chalice. Which refers to Loran, another city that fell to beasthood. And there's a lot of runes that suggests beasts also find their origins from the tomb of the gods.

I cant quite see a causal link between Amygdala having a chalice and the Great Ones being responsible for beasthood. The Great Ones certainly seem responsible for leading/inciting people to blood ministration, but if, as posited above blood ministration inevitably leads humans to beast hood then the fall of Loran to the scourge would be an inevitable consequence of Blood ministration. Theres also a total of one rune that mentions beasts and the labyrinths as far as I can see and its (like most of this stuff admittedly) open to interpretation

 

[Raven Prime]

Why do people call Iosefka an imposter? What's to lead one to believe that in any capacity?

Just found another piece of evidence on YT - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB5AruCHPig

 

[UnluckyKate]

There an obvious link between the lady in white from the moonlake cutscene, that you meet right before the wet nurse, all the baby cries, the prophecy (something like when the gods descend, the womb will bleed a child or something) the cords and Arianna's baby.

I just can't really put everything together. Arianna's baby is the one from the prophecy ? But the lady in white seemed to bleed, did she had a still born ? Is arianna's baby a batard from the lady in white hunsband ?

 

[Uthred]

There an obvious link between the lady in white from the moonlake cutscene, that you meet right before the wet nurse, all the baby cries, the prophecy (something like when the gods descend, the womb will bleed a child or something) the cords and Arianna's baby.

I just can't really put everything together. Arianna's baby is the one from the prophecy ? But the lady in white seemed to bleed, did she had a still born ? Is arianna's baby a batard from the lady in white hunsband ?

The lady in white is Yharnam, the Queen of the Pthumerians, implied to be the first (or at least the first we hear about) to be impregnated by a Great One and give birth to its stillborn offspring (the games pretty explicit about Great ones losing their children - though the line about needing a surrogate may mean they cant reproduce with themselves and need a surrogate mother, but a more basic reading suggests a surrogate child). The prophecy doesnt seem to be a prophecy so much as it is a statement of fact that when the Great Ones descend someones going to be up the duff. The lucky lady seems to be picked due to something "forbidden" in her blood (possibly the same forbidden substance used to found the Vilebloods). There are several theories about the father of Arianna's baby, I think the one about it being Odeon is pretty good. But Yharnam doesnt appear to be married to a great one so no it wasnt her husband in that sense (I also dont think it was the same great one who knocked up Yharnam and Arianna but we dont really know)

 

[UnluckyKate]

The lady in white is Yharnam, the Queen of the Pthumerians, implied to be the first (or at least the first we hear about) to be impregnated by a Great One and give birth to its stillborn offspring (the games pretty explicit about Great ones losing their children - though the line about needing a surrogate may mean they cant reproduce with themselves and need a surrogate mother, but a more basic reading suggests a surrogate child). The prophecy doesnt seem to be a prophecy so much as it is a statement of fact that when the Great Ones descend someones going to be up the duff. The lucky lady seems to be picked due to something "forbidden" in her blood (possibly the same forbidden substance used to found the Vilebloods). There are several theories about the father of Arianna's baby, I think the one about it being Odeon is pretty good. But Yharnam doesnt appear to be married to a great one so no it wasnt her husband in that sense (I also dont think it was the same great one who knocked up Yharnam and Arianna but we dont really know)

Who is Odeon ? I never saw anything related to that name beside the place you fight Gascoigne. Also, in the dream, a message kept telling me to rise to odeon...

 

[Sephiroth_GR_]

There an obvious link between the lady in white from the moonlake cutscene, that you meet right before the wet nurse, all the baby cries, the prophecy (something like when the gods descend, the womb will bleed a child or something) the cords and Arianna's baby.

I just can't really put everything together. Arianna's baby is the one from the prophecy ? But the lady in white seemed to bleed, did she had a still born ? Is arianna's baby a batard from the lady in white hunsband ?

Read a few pages back....anyway Lady in white is Yharnam: Queen of Pthumerians(a pale vampire-like race,NOT human). The baby of hers was taken by a Great One (Mergo's Wet Nurse), but we still don't know for what purpose.

Dunno about Arriana...

Edit: beaten

 

[Uthred]

Who is Odeon ? I never saw anything related to that name beside the place you fight Gascoigne. Also, in the dream, a message kept telling me to rise to odeon...

He's one of the Great Ones, specifically a "formless" great one, several items mention that blood is his medium and people are inadvertently worshipping him (possibly via Blood ministration). Other items mention that like all the Great Ones he yearns for a surrogate mother/child and its heavily implied he's behind Arianna's (almost literally) phantom pregnancy. Theres a number of theories surroudning him some suggest he plays a bit role in the plot others a small one, some suggest he's related to the Moon Presence, some reject that, like most of the topics here its contested

 

[Karsticles]

So using the Make Contact pose gives you a special item from Mother Brain. Has anyone experimented with these in other situations?

 

[cheezcake]

Who is Odeon ? I never saw anything related to that name beside the place you fight Gascoigne. Also, in the dream, a message kept telling me to rise to odeon...

He's future DLC, at least it seems like he will be

 

[Uthred]

He's future DLC, at least it seems like he will be

Yeah, Odeon, Ludwig and Loran all seem strong possibilities for DLC

 

[Beelzebufo]

He's future DLC, at least it seems like he will be

He's formless, you can't fight him. He's already the most present Great One, don't think he'll be DLC.

Also, that makes sense. GOs impregnant people to make cords because the babies die, then people use the cords to become GOs.

 

[cheezcake]

He's formless, you can't fight him. He's already the most present Great One, don't think he'll be DLC.

Also, that makes sense. GOs impregnant people to make cords because the babies die, then people use the cords to become GOs.

I don't think he's formless as in he literally has no form, I just assumed the church was only able to communicate with him but never summon him.

 

[Beelzebufo]

I don't think he's formless as in he literally has no form, I just assumed the church was only able to communicate with him but never summon him.

It says he's formless, not that the church thinks he's formless haha. Could be wrong though.

What about the one reborn? Does he have any items?

 

[cheezcake]

It says he's formless, not that the church thinks he's formless haha

Ah I hadn't seen the rune description before. Yeh I assume you won't fight him then but he seems to play an important role in the lore so I still think hell be a part of the dlc somehow.

 

[Soulflarz]

DLC talk?

I didnt want it with DS2, I want it with this :3

 

[Aztechnology]

DLC talk?

I didnt want it with DS2, I want it with this :3

I really want some stuff to flush the lore out a little, mostly backstory between Willhelm and laurence. Pthumerians and Mensis. However, a new type of chalice dungeon and increased modular pieces etc would be very welcome for longevity of the title.

I'd imagine the first piece of DLC will deal with the church though.

 

[Korosenai]

ENB just posted a video from his Bloodborne Lets Play, which includes the cutscene post Vicar Amelia and his (personal) take on what happens and what it means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpYx81HM4v8&spfreload=10

 

[zennyzz]

Are you suggesting that the Pthumeru chalice is responsible for the ashen plague? Just because A came from B and C was there doesnt really suggest a causal link between A and C

The ashen plague invariably began in old yharnam. The only notable thing about old yharnam is the pthumeru chalice. Which similarly is the only chalice found in the world of man and likely the chalice that began the blood infusions and the healing church.

The only thing the game tells us regarding chalices and gods is that a chalice can be used to open the labyrinth of the gods:

"Ritual chalice found in the Church of the Good Chalice.
Use in a ritual at the tomb altar in the Hunter's Dream to break the seal of the old underground labyrinth.
Let the chalice reveal the tomb of the gods; let blood be the hunter's nourishment.
...And let ye partake in communion... "

Nothing there about worship, unless its one of the other chalices that mention it?

I'm fairly certain there's an item that mentions that the communion with the gods began when some young byrgenwerth scholars found a chalice in the tomb of the gods(pthumeru being the only chalice in yharnam proper leads me to believe that is the one.)

And the healing church were the ones who began blood ministration as well.

I cant quite see a causal link between Amygdala having a chalice and the Great Ones being responsible for beasthood. The Great Ones certainly seem responsible for leading/inciting people to blood ministration, but if, as posited above blood ministration inevitably leads humans to beast hood then the fall of Loran to the scourge would be an inevitable consequence of Blood ministration. Theres also a total of one rune that mentions beasts and the labyrinths as far as I can see and its (like most of this stuff admittedly) open to interpretation

I never said the great ones were responsible for beasthood, merely that I don't believe beasthood is an antithesis to the great old ones and their motions.

 

[Uthred]

The ashen plague invariably began in old yharnam. The only notable thing about old yharnam is the pthumeru chalice. Which similarly is the only chalice found in the world of man and likely the chalice that began the blood infusions and the healing church.

Old Yharnam used to be the centre of the city, so logically if there was a plague in the city it would "begin" where everyone was (arguably it actually "began" in Loran). Again the game presents no causual link between "the chalice was here" and "the plague started here", it seems to be entirely conjecture. The Great Isz Chalice is also "in the world of man", its at the top of the church, in the center of "new" Yharnam after being excavated from the Labyrinth.

 

[Lucid07]

Did anyone manage to get anything to interact with Roms body on the alter? I know you could go up and inspect it, could you get anything to do anything?

 

[piccio_ssl]

Did anyone manage to get anything to interact with Roms body on the alter? I know you could go up and inspect it, could you get anything to do anything?

the vileblood queen's flesh

 

[zennyzz]

Old Yharnam used to be the centre of the city, so logically if there was a plague in the city it would "begin" where everyone was (arguably it actually "began" in Loran). Again the game presents no causual link between "the chalice was here" and "the plague started here", it seems to be entirely conjecture. The Great Isz Chalice is also "in the world of man", its at the top of the church, in the center of "new" Yharnam after being excavated from the Labyrinth.

you're right about Isz, I forgot about it. But Isz was a chalice found, after Byrgenwerth, its description says as much.

Also what suggests Old Yharnam was the center of the city, rather than, I dunno, Central Yharnam?

I just find it rather likely given that the Blood Starved Beast holds the Pthumeru Chalice, is also the most poison ridden boss in the game, gehrman mentions that people use chalices to partake in communion and the finding of the chalice coincides with the start of blood healing.

Gehrman also mentions that the first found chalice was in the valley, which further coincides with the Chalice of Old Yharnam

 

[Lucid07]

the vileblood queen's flesh

What did that do?

 

[zennyzz]

What did that do?

revive her if you, or alfred, kills her.

 

[piccio_ssl]

What did that do?

revives the dead queen, after alfred killed her in his sub quest ( you must give him the closed invitation you found in cainhurst )
basically, it keeps the vileblood covenant alive