It just reminds you how popular drugs like opium and laudanum and other opiates were at the time.
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
It just reminds you how popular drugs like opium and laudanum and other opiates were at the time.
Which makes me hopeful that she is alive if she still have dreams.
Orochinagis
Member
Also who were there Hunters in the original workshop, not the dream one.
Maybe Laurence and the old hunter were the creators of the Dream and move on there putting the old Hunter as the beacon to make the Dream being feeding in him while the church created the Nightmare using schoolars to maintain the nightmare alive as well
But that's the thing, she didn't forget about the hunter's dream.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Pretty sure the old Hunter is Gehrman. He was also the original one.
But what if he only thinks we'll forget the dream but once freed hunters only lose the power to get back not the stuff in the dream.
It's not really subtle either, as protags in the stories end up taking opiates or some super-exotic drugs when seeking forbidden knowledge about the universe.
Honestly I think he's saying forget in the sense of ho you might tell a friend to go to bed and forget a bad day. Like don't let these thoughts weigh heavy in your mind and wake up and forget they never really happened.
theSlacker
Member
I think the first ending with us waking up and the situation of other hunters no longer being able to access the dream are separate things. The ending seems to imply that the hunt and nightmare is over for us, and we are "back" in a normal version of the city, while Eileen and Djura are still living the hunt even if they can't dream and respawn.
does it ever explicitly say "veil" lifted? Or that Rom had any sorta hand in keeping the balance? Because I'm starting to doubt that. The whole 'he's keeping our master' etc is clearly referring to Master Willem, who moments before you see him (and it happens every time if you sprint your way to him quickly) you can see two Byrgenwerth students kinda guarding him, or perhaps holding him prisoner?!
You starting to see the lesser Amygdalas (which you can trigger anyway way ahead of Rom) and the blood moon was just a natural story progression thing just like it happened after Amelia when the night falls after you touch Laurence's skull.
You starting to see the lesser Amygdalas (which you can trigger anyway way ahead of Rom) and the blood moon was just a natural story progression thing just like it happened after Amelia when the night falls after you touch Laurence's skull.
That's not it. Remember when you're originally getting a blood transfusion to become a hunter, you're told "You can treat what happens after this as a dream" more or less? The entirety of "The Hunt" is a shared dream of Yharnam used to interact with the Great Ones, and so that the Great ones can create offspring. The Hunter's dream is hosted by the moon presence, but the nightmare is hosted by Micolash, and everything else seems to be hosted by Rom and Amygdalla.
Remember when you murdered Micolash he whines "I'm waking up. Now I'll forget everything!" basically, a perma death in the dream means forgetting everything that happened in the dream and going back to the real world. HOWEVER, I do not think this means that everyone who enters the dream has to die and forget to exit it.
My theory: the point of the hunt/dream is for the people of Yarhnam to gain insight into the great ones to bring into the real world, turning into a beast causes you to be stuck in the dream unless you're forced to accept your death, which is what the hunters are for, they're the emergency ejection system. Hunters themselves have to be able to leave the dream when the job is done, which is why there are Hunters of Hunters like Eileen to force other hunters to accept their death and make them die a final dream death once they stop dreaming. Gherman exists to mop up the last man standing, he's unable to leave the dream himself because he's bound to it by the Moon Presence.
Evidence:
Multiple NPCs are aware of past hunts, they're aware of hunts always ending sooner or later. That's why they stay indoors, they don't want to forget about the hunt and what little knowledge of it they bring home with them, so they try to stay alive and keep themselves from going beast, that's why a lot of the NPCs are outright hostile to you bothering them in their houses(also explains why you hear a couple of houses praying to be blessed with blood, perhaps that's the reward for surviving to the end). It's probably also why the guy who gives you the flamesprayer is glad that he'd probably die before he turns into a beast.
Then you have the hunters who don't dream anymore. Djura and Gascoigne are major examples and both of them have bandaged up eyes as a signifier of their inability to dream. Eyes are related to insight, it's repeated multiple times throughout the game that the more eyes you have the closer you are to the great ones, and they've run out. It's also worth noting that if you go back to the hunter's dream with 0 insight the doll goes back to being inanimate, as well, so it affects your perception of the dream severely. The normal NPCs don't seem to have the same problem(they have functional eyes), probably because they're not bound to the Hunter's Dream(or the moon presence) at all in the first place.
Perhaps the reason why Hunters need to be ejected from the Hunters dream while NPCs do not need to be is because of the blood used to create hunters in the first place making them close enough to beasts that they cannot die in the dream until they've been forced to accept they're death(or accept it on their own) and forget everything. In the true ending you "transcend the hunt" by becoming a great one yourself, and as such you no longer need to be killed(Though you're probably a permanent resident of the dreams now).
If that's true than why have his fight at all? At least with the skull you get the tonsil stone with Rom he drops nothing progression related.
When you kill Rom you can see the Amygdalas even without 40 insight; which means everyone in Yharnam could see them too, which means panic as fuck, which means Mensis had to make their move and bring in the One Reborn.
I think he just says that because he is already dead in the real world.
eot
Banned
Your explanation seems self consistent, but "everything is a dream" is so unsatisfying. How can we conclude anything about the waking world if we were in a dream the entire time?
In lovecraft lore, the dream world is a separate dimension that can be accessed and explored by people while dreaming. Assuming it is somewhat similar here -as evidenced by the Hunter's dream being shared by the hunters, and the Nightmare Frontier-, Micolash was just the host of that small area, which I take to mean he was the one who modified it to look like a castle and to have all those creatures, but him leaving does not mean the dimension is undone. Other people (you) can still dream of it and explore it.
It is not clear if we really kill Micolash. Chances are he woke up in some bed in Yharnam after having dreamed for a long time, not remembering his dream.
Everything was not a dream -yharnam is in the real world-, and besides, the dream world is real too.
The transfusion and contract and some inherent "huntingness" allow you to treat reality like a dream, and the hunter's dream like reality, allowing you to come back to life, and to "reawaken", aka, go back to the last lamp.
Important point is that lovecraft used to treat the dreamworld as a real,separate place, and everything points to bloodborne doing the same.
Oh man, beyond the doors of the silver key is the best. Here's hoping that some Zkauba kind of guy is present in bloodborne. Maybe the celestial emissary?
Mermandala
Member
Think of a Venn diagram where Other Dimensions / Dreams / Real World have points of overlap and "all a dream" isn't as meaningless as normally assumed. For instance, I also think that Micolash is dead in the Real World but alive in a Dream state (Nightmare) that then can overlap Other Dimensions. Some areas are all of these things at once.
I think the One Reborn was just an old blood experiment Mensis did to manufacture a Great One which can still be found in Yhargul, then they went on finding a way to access to the nightmare dimension where the red moon ritual was performed for the first time long ago.
Moon presence was summoned, Mensis people went crazy, two babies were born, Mergo whose umbilical cord is kept by the Nurse and an other baby that is strictly connected to Ghernam. Ghernam probably killed him among with the mother (maybe his wife was chosen by the moon presence??), he kept the umbilical cord in his workshop.
Then something happened, Moon Presence took Ghernam and made him a prisoner in the hunter's dream dimension, Rom cleaned the place conceiling Yarghul, the nigthmare dimension and keeping the great ones away from our reality.
At the present point in the story Mensis is just a bunch of crazy beasts or monsters.
One Reborn is an ancient thing, is not an answer to Rom being killed.
I think this is the case. Micolash hints that he's gonna wake up somewhere without knowledge, same fate of the hunter with the first ending.
Point is that if these people are dreaming we should ask where their real body is in the whole time...
Basically you're saying that everything is a dream but I don't think so, the hunter's dream is a dream dimension, just like the Mensis nightmare.
But Yharnam is real, the whole story started with humans finding gods and wanting to be like them.
I don't know why Eileen stopped being a hunter and still remember about the dream, the doll and so on. She should have forgotten about those based on the first ending...
zyxwvu4321
Member
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but I just noticed that the moon is still white in Byrgenwerth after killing Rom. Really can't speak to what, if any, significance that has. Just an observation.
1. You can't conclude anything about the real world. The waking world might very well be in similar state to the dream world, it might have been a mirror of the real world drawn from the minds of its residents. Everyone in the dream world might already be dead in the real world, and that could be what the whole "accepting your own death" thing is about. It also might be that everything that turns into a re-spawning beast never returns to the real world.
2. The dream itself is reality for the Great Ones, or at least a plane of reality. It's where they have their babies. It becomes your reality in the bad ending and the true ending.
Every hunter in the game still remembers the dream even if they can't dream anymore, and my explanation accounts for that. You need to stop dreaming and then be killed. There's a reason why gherman needs to murder you for you to wake up in the "real world". I also think Yharnam is real, but the version of Yharnam that you see isn't.
He doesn't say "what's happening right this moment" is a dream. He says from the point he gives the blood to you on is a dream. I think he's only dead in the dream world in the same sense that the guy asking for a password is dead in the dreamworld. They still have enough of a connection to it that they still remember it.
I dunno honestly :lol the lore messages are quite vague. I like the veil theory A LOT but I'm not yet ready to treat it as fact
"The Byrgenwerth spider hides all manner of rituals, and keeps our lost master from us."
"The spider hides all manner of rituals, certain to reveal nothing, for true enlightenment need not be shared."
"When the red moon hangs low, the line between man and beast is blurred. And when the Great Ones descend, a womb will be blessed with child"
so what do we get from all of this? We know the lost master is Willem but what are the 'manner of rituals'? Do they mean turning into a spider/slug? And its perhaps viewed as 'true enlightenment'?
and the red moon is the one that fucked everything up and not Rom
so many questions, OddMorsel halp
Dude the aliens convo is so last week. We have bigger things to talk about. I mean for Christ sake we have a Victorian era automaton that thinks and is used for sex maybe. The aliens are the smallest mystery in this game. In fact they are hardly even a mystery they came from space and work with the clestial emissary.
The thing is Rom might not even be he spider they are talking about!
yeah it could also mean Patches hiding the stone that leads to Amygdala and the library dimension from everyone!
but Rom, the Vacuous Spider is pretty damning lol
and Micolash never mentioned anything about any veil
I think the whole blood raining from the sky the moment you kill Rom, the Pthumerian Queen showing up and being freaky in Rom's bossroom after he's slain, the Bloodmoon showing up in that same cutscene and you being teleported and that message to you afterward makes it pretty clear that killing Rom is the cause.
"The Spider at Byrgenworth" There's only one spider at Byrgenworth.
Orochinagis
Member
I love the implication of using the Plain Doll as "you please" then you fin out even she is disposable like her "sister" and the morbid desire in her creation.
Its a Portal to Rom's own version of the dream
Because you killed a Great One, probably? But yeah, you could be right.
Imperfected
Member
The game has an incredible amount of Lovecraftian influence. Lovecraft had a cosmic boner for aliens. It's not even remotely surprising or out of place.
Orochinagis
Member
Rom is related to them but not a great one, maybe a benevolent lesser servant from them.
Hmm... I was under the impression that those lecture halls where you meet patches were at Brygensworths as well just in a different dimension or something. Because when you go to fuck up Rom that place is pretty small for a college.
eot
Banned
Right, but an entire district of Yarnham is built around the Healing Church whose existence relates directly to the Great Ones. It's hard to reconcile if the Great Ones only manifest in the dream. No tomb, no blood, no Healing Church, a completely different city.
Also, should we conclude that Father G's family just all woke up when they died? That removes all the tragedy.
edit: btw, is this particular Amygdala in the final game?
Beelzebufo
Banned
We don't know that the Old Blood is connected to the great ones at all, the fact that it causes beasthood and that blood in general is a sedative suggests otherwise. They did find the slugs that allow them to contact the Great Ones in the labyrinth though, but the slugs pull their power through time and space, so the other dudes theory still checks out.
Of course Oedon is in the blood, but he's in all blood and always has been.
Honestly the story is really convoluted and it's really hard to understand the details, which is something that personally I don't like.
I think the player deserves to be rewarded at the end with something that makes sense.
But I see many problems with the everything is a dream interpretation.
First of all the player is a foreigner who arrives in Yharnam from the outside, he certainly doesn't belong to a dream at the beginning of the game and the Yharnam we see in the intro is not a dream.
He is interested in curative blood and we might speculate that he was invited to the Cainhurst castle to become a vileblood.
Then he accepted to make this blood contract and become a hunter.
At that point what is dream and what is reality is not fully clear.
There's something which we may consider though, as I said the story has a premise which is absolutely grounded in reality with Yharnam people finding gods and wanting to be like them and sharing their knowledge.
Second thing, the Great Beings are able to live and interact in dream dimensions (the Mensis nightmare where the first red moon ritual took place, the Hunter's Dream where the moon presence takes Ghernam as a prisoner).
They are not able to interact with the Yharnam the hunter can visit until Rom is defeated though, we might sense their presence on a parallel superimposed dimension with enough insight but they can't do anything, their only influence is creating portals.
So I don't think that Yharnam is a dream otherwise they would have no problem interacting and impregnating women just like it happened in the Mensis Nightmare dimension which is their ultimate goal.
I understand though that the endings add confusion in the sense that it's not clear what is a dream and where the actual body lies while dreaming.
My guess is that dreams are the equivalent of dimensions here, so the actual body travels in the dimension where it is 'dreaming'. If you die in that dimension you get out of that dimension and you wake up somewhere else. Getting killed in the hunter's dream simply means not being able to access that dimension anymore and losing all the memories associated although considering the player wasn't strictly trapped there like Gherman it doesn't look a big deal to me.
Also it's not clear at this point what it takes to have a permanent death.
Btw do you have an idea about what happened to Mergo?
Was he killed long ago and the Nurse kept the cable? Do we kill him when we kill the Nurse? I don't have any idea about who the mother, the woman in the wedding dress who looks like the corpse bride, is.
Are we going to have to clear answers about the story by developers in a guide or somewhere else?
Orochinagis
Member
Mermandala
Member
The Rom-like carcass in the Altar of Despair is probably as interesting as the fight against Rom-proper in Moonside lake. Of the 2 locations the life-renewing husk is definitely in the Real World whereas the bottom of the lake via the moon is in either Dream or Other Dimension or both.
The healing church made contact with the Great Ones, it exists in the real world, but the great ones don't affect the real world directly.
Lets look at the game's currency. It's Blood Echoes. Why Blood "Echoes" and not blood? Why do these echoes, or imprints, of the blood of other beings boost our own strength? Why do people like Adella and Arianna have special blood that they can give out to others(The description for Adella's blood implies the Healing church use people like her to distribute blood to the masses)?
An answer for that is that the dream effects your blood in the real world, the echoes leave their imprint on your body, and the bodies of others, and make it have special properties. That's the reason for the hunt.
Also, if we're talking tragedy, consider this: What happens to all the beasts who are not stopped from respawning? Presumably they stay in the dream forever, never to wake up again. That's more tragic than a small family surviving.
And also consider, From does that kind of storyline pretty often. Lordran is like a hell on earth, separated from Reality, with loose ties to time and place. Drangleic is very separate from the real world. Demon Souls is a set of loosely tied areas that can be thought of as dreams.
Beelzebufo
Banned
They do have eyes, they just only come out when they get angry
And I believe the only ones without eyes are Mergo's and Moon Presence (assuming it is a Great One), correct?
GwyndolinCinder
Member
They do have eyes, they pop out its head when they fire lazers
That's not true, they have eyes and use them to fire the beams at you. Not just the amygdala you fight as a boss, but also the lesser amygdala in the unseen village that shoots at you. You can actuallly see the eyes pop out and retract right before they fire the beams.
btw, just had the weirdest thing happening to me. I woke up back at the Hunter's dream, and i overheard Germanh crying and pleading for someone to unshackle him from the endless night or something like that. I heard his voice but i could never actually locate him, in front of the house or behind.
Sounds familiar to anyone? I just killed the one reborn and am currently roaming the upper cathedral ward.
Isn't he the body sitting in the chair after One Reborn?
Beelzebufo
Banned
Yeah, I think so. Probs doesn't know he's dead. I'd think Gehrman is dead too, the Old Hunter Bone is probably his since he's known for his speed.
Sephiroth_GR_
Member
I think it happened in phases. Some other people earlier have wrote better timelines, but mine is
-Byrgenwerth finds Yharnam the white queen in the old chalice dungeons.
-They start experimenting with blood ministration and it's all good times for a while.
-First problems with blood appear. The church is formed.
-The church finds the slugs in the dungeons. The church takes them over and eventually summon Ebrietas from them.
-Blood Beasts appear. The church creates the hunters.
-Ebrietas and the Celestial Emissary create their own wing, the Choir.
-Mensis, probably an offshot from Byrgenwerth, discovers that the Great Ones inhabit the dream dimension by default.
-Someone -probably Kosmos, Ebrietas' father- transforms Rom, some Byrgenwerth student, into the Vacuous Spider.
-The Vacuous spider has the power to create a veil to keep the Great ones hidden from the populace.
-The church closes Byrgenwerth.
-Using the veil, Mensis and the Choir stop being reluctant over their experiments and start bringing more and more Great Ones from the dream dimension, since they will be kept hidden from the people.
-the game.
I don't think so; only hunters get to go to the hunter dream, and the people who go to the nightmare frontier do not seem anchored to that place like your hunter.
I've heard that Father G does not dream, so he prolly just died.
edit: btw, is this particular Amygdala in the final game?
I don't think so.
Daaang, probably, that must be it.
I missed it because you don't meet Micolash until a long time after that -since the first section of Nightmare of Mensis is so fucking hard-, and in the final section there's a bunch of guys sitting in thrones with the same cage in the head.
Yes! And it even says "inspect MUMMY" so I don't think he even knows he's dead :lol he probably spent years in that nightmare of his
gameoverbro
Member
Beasts, aliens, and now patches. I'm mind f***ed!
Sephiroth_GR_
Member
It's not and the description suggests that IF Gehrman is dead,then he died long,long time ago...
"The bone of an old hunter whose name is lost.
It is said that he was an apprentice to old Gehrman, and a practitioner of the art of Quickening, a technique particular to the first hunters.
It is most appropriate that hunters, carriers of the torch who are sustained by the dream, would tease an old art from his remains. "
Hypemaster
Member
Wow things are adding up for me now.
meanspartan
Member
Just finished the game, loved it, no idea what the fuck happened in the story. Can anyone link me to either the best post on here giving a detailed summary, or a good summary outside of Gaf?