Micolash was host to the nightmare as Gherman was host to the dream. When you kill Gherman the Moon Presence is still there so I think it's safe to assume that Mergo can just find somebody else to host a new nightmare.
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
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Micolash was host to the nightmare as Gherman was host to the dream. When you kill Gherman the Moon Presence is still there so I think it's safe to assume that Mergo can just find somebody else to host a new nightmare.
Beelzebufo
Banned
That's assuming they have anything interesting to say
I guess Amygdala might, those dudes seem sentient enough. Probably Ebrietas and Celestial Emmisary too.
anything would be nice. similar to Micolash and his rants.
Glitchesarecool
Member
Is this like the hunter in Old Yarnham (machine gunner) who describes himself as "no longer dreaming," perhaps?
That would imply that even if you wake up, you've really accomplished nothing. Literally everything you did doesn't matter; you're still stuck in that nightmare.
Eileen also mentioned that she will no longer dream after you took out that hunter for her at Grand Cathedral.
I wonder why interacting with his skull is what triggers the transition fom late afternoon to night. VA isn't the trigger, I found that out on my second character when I forgot to interact with the skull(Interestingly, in Hemwick lane in the afternoon, those summoned blood werewolves don't appear during the day).
that flashback lasted way longer than we expected
Maybe there's not really a reason and it's just the natural game progression? The time also passes when you kill Gascoigne. Maybe we're overthinking that aspect
If you don't help her she'll be waiting for you in the grand Cathedral and based on her dialog she has lost her mind.
Also in regards to the time talk Yarnham still hasa day/night cycle so touching the skull isn't what changes time it's just meant to represent the passing of time. The skull has no magic time powers.
Yeah, that seems the most likely case, but the effect that the transition to night has on all the NPCs, and enemies, feels like its more than a tiny bit of time passing. Though Micolash is supposedly toiling in the background all this time.
Karsticles
Member
IIRC, some of the flavor text outright states that the Moon Presence is the host of the Hunter's Dream, not Gehrman.
Which makes one wonder: is the Moon Presence a hunter in some fashion?
That is my interpretation, yes. It suggests that the hunter in Old Yarnham and Eileen both chose to accept execution from Gehrman.
yea, I messed up her quest in NG and faced off against her there. I redeemed myself in NG+. man, that hunter was tough.
I am quite certain that "dreaming" means having the power to respawn. Djura's dialog if you befriend him hints in that direction, and Eileen is basically saying "I don't dream anymore, I'm on my last life here." When you help her outside the cathedral. I think "Dreaming" means having your essence bound to the Hunter's Dream, meaning you have a safe haven to go to even if you die. And the other hunters you meet no longer dream, which is why they don't come back when you kill them.
Question about the sky changing, and I apologize if this has been asked before, but I'm finishing up things around the end of the game before I choose an ending, and depending on where I'm at, the moon can be red or white. Particularly, in the Nightmare it's still white, while in the Yharnam (or as some have referred to it, the real world - still not sold on that) it's red. Is there a reason for this?
We also need to make sure the comment on the last page with the confirmation from SCEJ that Laurence drank too much blood, turned into a beast, and that's his transformed skull on display in the Grand Cathedral. Because that's a pretty big thing to know absolutely for certain for lore in a Souls game.
We also need to make sure the comment on the last page with the confirmation from SCEJ that Laurence drank too much blood, turned into a beast, and that's his transformed skull on display in the Grand Cathedral. Because that's a pretty big thing to know absolutely for certain for lore in a Souls game.
yup, I totally got that. their life as a hunter is over essentially.
Karsticles
Member
I missed both of those dialogues - this fits very well with how I see the game's world to be.
On the note of missed conversations: other people keep talking as though the old woman and the church woman in Cathedral Ward have conversations and give them stuff toward the end of the game. Both of my "rescues" just talk gibberish to themselves and hold their heads. What gives?
I feel like there's a connection to insight here, as Djura, for example, had both his eyes patched. So did Gascoigne. If Insight is related to "eyes on the brain"(I'm not even sure that's literal, it could be that they need someone to observe them in the dream, perhaps why common enemies respawn), then not being able to dream might mean you're out of eyes.
Or perhaps it means that they've "accepted" their death like Gherman wants you to. Every time he kills you in the boss fight he implores you to accept your death, or perhaps to "Stop respawning and go back to the real world".
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Fuck this game is so good. Showing up the most cinematic of games with that final encounter.
MegaSackman
Member
I think both of you are on the right track! The guy on the wheelchair without eyes at the beggining and the statues covering their eyes, it makes sense or at least seems suspicious.
eot
Banned
Pretty sure they appear when you hit 15 insight.
Disappointingly, they don't disappear after you kill the Witch even though she was presumably the one summoning them.
1:02
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRw9WyI0ocA
Also, big red moon throughout the fight.
Nothing story related, just interesting how similar these scenes are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRw9WyI0ocA
Also, big red moon throughout the fight.
Nothing story related, just interesting how similar these scenes are.
I had like 30 insight on that run, it's the day night cycle that makes them appear.
Might be Eileen's job to enforce the blue pill ending.
I think killing rom allows for the showing of the current state of the moon (which is red) and that those bell witches are trying to have that black hole poop out the one reborn.
I still don´t understand why would they give up immortality if you still have to deal with the beasts anyway? what´s the advantage of choosing that path?
Gehrman made it sound like you don´t have to fight anymore and the nightmare will stop,at least that was my impression.
Sephiroth_GR_
Member
Beelzebufo
Banned
Ooh, I likd the theory that the blood moon is just a normal part of the Hunt, just like normal nighttime.
That would explain why people saw it in Old Yharnam, even though nobody had enough insight to see it back then.
That would explain why people saw it in Old Yharnam, even though nobody had enough insight to see it back then.
I would say that being immortal and never being able to truly die is a punishment more than a blessing. Continually getting killed, seeing those you care about die out could drive you insane eventually
Glitchesarecool
Member
I don't think we could be lore analysts if we didn't watch ENB's videos. He's not the end all, but he has good insight.
I watch every single one that comes out on that day. been watching his vids since he first started on YT. look how far he's come after his famous Drake Sword guide lol
I think the point was to clue you in on the fact that she can't be trusted and you shouldn't send people to the clinic.
I think that's the general sense although I don't know if there's a true ending, we are used to think like that playing videogames but I'm not sure it applies here.
Not sure if I want to become a baby monster for the sake of evolution, superior knowledge and so on.
Trying to save the city (or at least myself) seems a perfect choice to me and the closest ending to that is number one.
Btw (and sorry for the long post incoming) but I think the confusion is mainly about what we accomplished and what is our goal and Gherman's.
What we know is that:
1)We killed Rom and that cannot be reversed, that means that the Great Beings have now free access to our dimension with all the consequences of that (they're now free to impregnate women as they like LOL? so the night is over but the city cannot be saved anyway?)
2)We killed Micolash and slayed the nightmare.
Here it's more tricky to understand what happened. First all what is it this nightmare dimension?
My guess is that it is a parallel dimension that the academics at Byrgenwerth who betrayed Willem and then went to Yarghul found/unleashed in the past in their desire to connect with the great beings. They also tried in some way to manufacture a great being themselves and the result is the one reborn which is still in Yarghul and we destroyed.
Accessing to the nightmare dimension where great beings had free access made most people go crazy but it led to the first red moon ritual being completed and the first newborns being conceived. Mergo is one of them, the mother is that woman in white which looks like the corpse bride, I don't know who she is, I've read some people say it's a queen but I don't know. The other child seems to be connected to Gherman, the umbilical cord was found in his real workshop, probably his wife was chosen.
Then something happened, probably Gherman killed both his wife and her newborn. Gherman was trapped in the hunter's dream dimension which resembles hiw workshop by the moon presence and he basically became his slave.
Rom probably betrayed the other great beings and created a veil which sealed Yarghul, the nigthmare dimension with Mergo and prevented other great beings to freely access to our dimension.
Now the question is, when we kill both Micolash and Mergo's Nurse what happens? Micolash is the host of the nightmare, he says that he doesn't want to die in the sense of leaving the nightmare dimension because he would awake losing all his knowledge, so we're not really killing him anyway.
In any case the nightmare dimension remains, he probably was the old conduit to that dimension but it's not his creation and its existence doesn't depend on him.
Also yesterday I thought that killing the nurse we were killing the baby as well and that stopped the new red moon ritual which was our goal, but thinking better about it, the baby effectively was not there, it seems like Mergo was killed or went missing already long ago when the nightmare dimension was selead.
In that case I really don't know what we accomplish in the Mensis Nightmare, we killed Micolash but that didn't erase the nightmare dimension, the baby was already killed...so I really don't know....
I also really don't get the endings.
It's not clear if Gherman is on our side or if he's trying to help the red moon presence or better if he's forced to.
It cannot be excluded that his mission at least initially is to find a hunter and to guide us to kill Rom to help the Moon presence.
He gives the player a chance to be freed from the hunter's dream (although the player is not really trapped in it unlike him so what?) but based on what accomplishment precisely?
Killing Rom, Micolash, the newborn (which as we said was not really killed by us)?
The hunting night is over (but what triggered its end exactly?) but with Rom killed it's unlikely that the city can be saved and a new hunter isn't needed either! If Rom was still alive a new cycle could begin with a new hunter.
If we refuse to leave the dream Gherman attacks us, which means that he's against it although he would have a chance at being freed himself so he doesn't want the cycle to be stopped which is in contrast with the speculation that he's helping the moon presence.
If we become the new Gherman the hunting continues but again there's the problem: what's the purpose of the hunting with Rom's being killed? Seems like the great beings will get what they want anyway.
In the third ending the red moon ritual is complete and we become the child so that is the end of Yharnam but probably a new beginning for humanity?
Fbh
Gold Member
Glitchesarecool
Member
Before choosing it, the line is. "Now I will show you mercy. You will die, forget the dream, and awake under the morning sun. You will be freed... From this terrible hunter's dream."
On thinking about this, I wonder if that is only referring to you no longer reviving when killed. It's only talking about forgetting the dream, not everything.
Well, it doesn't actually clarify if we forget everything about the eldritch Truth, but it does show how Eileen and Djura didn't get that far, they didn't chose to abandon the dream, otherwise they wouldn't know about it, there must be another reason why they don't dream anymore.
Anyway, if we do forget about all the superior knowledge we acquire, then it's indeed my favorite ending, even considering we have no idea what happens then, in fact, that's part of the beauty. You choose that ignorance is indeed bliss and decide to live oblivious to the unspeakable horrors you experience, that could very well drive you insane.
Orochinagis
Member
Don't have to assume, it's explicitly mentioned in the trophy description
I don't think "just waking up" describes that ending quite right however. Too much other stuff going on and too much ambiguity. You wake up but you also lose the value of the knowledge and experiences you'd gained, like Micolash's lament that "now I'll forget everything." Of course if ignorance is bliss... who knows!
I've never been crazy about classifying Souls endings as "good" or "bad," feels too reductive.
Yeah souls games are not good or bad but moves forward, unless you take the kindle the fire who pause the inevitable dark age and makes more dark souls games.
They are no longer the hunters required for hunt in this night so they cant dream anymore but they survived the previous hunting nights. There is no explanation how can you be selected or not being selected to the next hunting night.
Some of the surviving Hunter probably kept hunting without the Dream aid and becomes corrupted like Father G and the other Hunters you can find, I found curious how some hunters went to aid you in the Hidden Village but got overcome by the frenzy.
Never watched his BB videos, is far more easier to connect the dots here than Dark Souls
I think the player is trapped in a way. Gherman is trapped and cannot leave, but the player is trapped in never being able to truly die and to constantly see horrific things (not beasts but the alien monstrosities all over the world). Eileen knows about the dream world, knows about the doll but says she can no longer dream. I figured she was once like us, and was set free by Gherman. She can now die just like a normal human can and she hunts hunters (not sure for what motive). So setting us free, Gherman lets us be able to die again for real, no longer being able to go back to the dream world but also shrouding the weird alien creatures again.
Gherman knows that someone would have to take over for him and hes been stuck inside the dream for so long and knows how lonely or sad it is so he does not want you to take his place and is trying to stop you from doing so so you don't have to suffer like he has, he'd rather you find a way to stop it completely and if you can't do that then he'd rather kill you than you take over for him.
So, at least from my understanding, in the first ending he wants to set you free and kinda live a life of "ignorance is bliss" when it comes to the celestial beings, and perhaps a new hunter will come along later that could have the fortitude and items to end the dream for good.
In the second one you're feeling sympathy for him and trying to save him from his misery of being stuck in the hunter's dream.
You'll forget about the dream, though, and Eileen knows about the dream and the doll.
The whole connection to dreams is interesting here since if From used Lovecraft as a basis they'd know dreams were incredibly important in his fiction.
You have stuff like 'Hypnos' where gods met in a dream can change reality, the whole Dream-Quest To Unknown Kadath and Silver Key sequences about the Dreamlands, Dreams in the Witch House where beings met via dreams teach a man about the true nature of the universe, and so on. One that's really interesting here is Beyond the Wall of Sleep where a man discovers inside his dreams that he's actually a cosmic being.
You have stuff like 'Hypnos' where gods met in a dream can change reality, the whole Dream-Quest To Unknown Kadath and Silver Key sequences about the Dreamlands, Dreams in the Witch House where beings met via dreams teach a man about the true nature of the universe, and so on. One that's really interesting here is Beyond the Wall of Sleep where a man discovers inside his dreams that he's actually a cosmic being.
You referring to Gherman saying you'll forget the dream? cause I took it as you'll forget the hunter's dream or the ability to get back to it.