Just me or the boss kinda looks like a baby? Well obviously not a baby per se, but he doesn't look like the other fully developed Old Gods to me
And I'm obviously stretching/Vaati-ing it here but his tails look like umbilical cords
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
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Just me or the boss kinda looks like a baby? Well obviously not a baby per se, but he doesn't look like the other fully developed Old Gods to me
And I'm obviously stretching/Vaati-ing it here but his tails look like umbilical cords
theSlacker
Member
To remain topical; nice description of VaatiVidya's videos.
I kid, I like him even if he takes too many liberties.
Orochinagis
Member
Did the propurse of umbilical cords is being tied to his stomach?
he posted a new video today, where apparently if you attack her door she gets scared and stops talking you... Then suddenly later in the game she talks to you again like she has just met you.
You know after going back to Dark Souls 2 for a bit I find some of the paralells interesting. I mean in Dark Souls 2 you have the 4 Old Ones that you're hunting and in Bloodbourne you have the tomb of the old gods with a fire theme, and bosses like the keepers of the old gods with fire that could be fire keeper parallels. Probably just a verbage relation, but still an interesting thought to go with.
but DS2 just follows the same pattern as DS1.
Orochinagis
Member
You absorb him so you can finally see the amigdalas and discover the true about the church blood techniques.
Noupe, thats a from Dark Souls 1 but in BB is more simple to follow instead of 4 ones in any order they are lined in a straight line
Brilliant comparison.
usp84
Member
I know that, but I'm not playing DS1 right now, so I'm drawing the paralells from DS2. And bloodbourne's 4 ones are the great ones, I was talking about the tomb of the Old Gods and the chalice dungeon.
So is it ever explained what exactly happened in Yahar'Gul? Walking along the street and there's burning bodies in a strange pose in craters along along the road. There's also what looks like people trapped in concrete on the walls as well.
Also, why did the sack people suddenly vanish after Rom is defeated? I noticed some of their bodies on the street in Yahar'Gul too.
Also, why did the sack people suddenly vanish after Rom is defeated? I noticed some of their bodies on the street in Yahar'Gul too.
The sack people don't vanish, they're murdered. If you look around you'll find their bodies, some even have new items.
Orochinagis
Member
Thanks but what is the truth?
They discovered some "slugs" in the chalice dungeon and learned about the use of blood thanks to them but those slugs slowly entered the church's minds and somewhat controlled them to enter this world, Byrgenwerth realized it but it was too late, Yharman got swarmed by amigdalas corrupting everyone.
Everyone got killed by the red bell ladies, the old witched and the Amigdalas
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Just a few thoughts I have been wracking my brain with.
If Gehrman has to decapitate a hunter in the ending to send you back to Yharnam rather than just let you leave via a tombstone, is it just because he does not want you to come back to the Hunter's dream or because you didn't end the hunts forever (just for that night, not the true ending) or because the Yharnam we keep going to is not real Yharnam and is just a dream Yharnam (or like half dream half reality)? If Micolash can host a nightmare that we can go to as a human, why couldn't the great ones make a dream so powerful that it also extends into reality warping it?
I was also wondering who the old man in the wheelchair at the start was. Gehrman knows Laurence and Willem from some of his dialogue, and they must know he is stuck since he says "What's taking so long" as if hes expecting them to get him out of wherever he is. We know we're not the first hunters to see him. So someone that know Gehrman or about the hunter's dream is infusing foreigners with Yharnam blood and that is their contract (really to get Gehrman out under the guise of needing it for the hunt?). This old guy at the start says "oh yes paleblood" as if you had just asked him where to find or what is paleblood. He then wants us to unravel the mystery as if he knows what it is but can't just tell you. Maybe the old guy at the start really is Laurence. Maybe Laurence fucked up with the Moon Presence and got his friend Gehrman locked up in the Hunter's Dream and now tries to get Hunters in to get him out but none (until the player) have been successful (depending on the ending).
Edit: To add to that last point, the graves in the Hunter's Dreams are in memory of past hunters that have come before you as per the doll's dialogue, other hunter that Gehrman decapitated to get out because they could not save him or some that died in some other way?
It's a weird theory, and I do kinda think the skull in the church is Laurence but it was something to think about. I know it's probably batshit crazy right now.
If Gehrman has to decapitate a hunter in the ending to send you back to Yharnam rather than just let you leave via a tombstone, is it just because he does not want you to come back to the Hunter's dream or because you didn't end the hunts forever (just for that night, not the true ending) or because the Yharnam we keep going to is not real Yharnam and is just a dream Yharnam (or like half dream half reality)? If Micolash can host a nightmare that we can go to as a human, why couldn't the great ones make a dream so powerful that it also extends into reality warping it?
I was also wondering who the old man in the wheelchair at the start was. Gehrman knows Laurence and Willem from some of his dialogue, and they must know he is stuck since he says "What's taking so long" as if hes expecting them to get him out of wherever he is. We know we're not the first hunters to see him. So someone that know Gehrman or about the hunter's dream is infusing foreigners with Yharnam blood and that is their contract (really to get Gehrman out under the guise of needing it for the hunt?). This old guy at the start says "oh yes paleblood" as if you had just asked him where to find or what is paleblood. He then wants us to unravel the mystery as if he knows what it is but can't just tell you. Maybe the old guy at the start really is Laurence. Maybe Laurence fucked up with the Moon Presence and got his friend Gehrman locked up in the Hunter's Dream and now tries to get Hunters in to get him out but none (until the player) have been successful (depending on the ending).
Edit: To add to that last point, the graves in the Hunter's Dreams are in memory of past hunters that have come before you as per the doll's dialogue, other hunter that Gehrman decapitated to get out because they could not save him or some that died in some other way?
It's a weird theory, and I do kinda think the skull in the church is Laurence but it was something to think about. I know it's probably batshit crazy right now.
Where is this explained?
Has anyone analyzed the note in Old Yharnam? I just re-saw it on my second playthrough. It seems to imply that this isn't the first time the red moon has shown up (it happened before Old Yharnam was razed).
Why does the door not open until he is killed though?
Another question, is there any explanation for the guy who asks you the password for the door but is long dead?
Why does the door not open until he is killed though?
Another question, is there any explanation for the guy who asks you the password for the door but is long dead?
Just finished the game and saw two of the three endings but honestly I didn't understand a lot, it's really confusing.
What I got is that Willem, Laurence and other people who studied at Byrgenwerth found this tomb of gods where they found the blood of these great beings.
Willen thought it was a dangerous thing, Laurence on the contrary went ahead, the Healing Church was born and started experimenting with blood. The Choir and the Mensis branch wanted to find ways to be more like gods, to get a superior level of knowledge, access to the cosmos.
But things went downhill with the experiments, people couldn't handle the blood, they became beasts and went crazy.
What I don't get: why these super beings/aliens want to have children with humans in first place? What do they have to gain? For some reasons they have been left unable to reproduce in other ways?
Did the Church wanted to mix human race with the god race as well? So mixing human blood with their blood was a step in that direction?
Why the blood ended up being given to the whole population? Was that part of a ritual which required as many people as possible to partecipate?
Maybe a way to get the attention of these beings so that they could notice them?
Also there's this spider Rom which doesn't want other great beings to interfere with the human world although he's a great being himself.
The Church is clearly pissed off because of this, they seem unable to defeat him on their own.
Also what's this Moonpresence that Laurence ends up summoning? And this paleblood we have to find?
But the biggest WTF is....what do hunters have to do in all this? What's the hunting night precisely? They sign a contract, they seem to be trapped in a dream, but when they go to Yarhnam are they still dreaming?
The plot is confusing on the matter, at first the mission seems to be to stop the plague of people turning into beasts, then you kill Rom and basically it seems like you're helping both the Church and the Great Beings to achieve their goals...but then you went on destroying the nightmare dimension and the nightmare baby..........so what?? ^_^'''
What I got is that Willem, Laurence and other people who studied at Byrgenwerth found this tomb of gods where they found the blood of these great beings.
Willen thought it was a dangerous thing, Laurence on the contrary went ahead, the Healing Church was born and started experimenting with blood. The Choir and the Mensis branch wanted to find ways to be more like gods, to get a superior level of knowledge, access to the cosmos.
But things went downhill with the experiments, people couldn't handle the blood, they became beasts and went crazy.
What I don't get: why these super beings/aliens want to have children with humans in first place? What do they have to gain? For some reasons they have been left unable to reproduce in other ways?
Did the Church wanted to mix human race with the god race as well? So mixing human blood with their blood was a step in that direction?
Why the blood ended up being given to the whole population? Was that part of a ritual which required as many people as possible to partecipate?
Maybe a way to get the attention of these beings so that they could notice them?
Also there's this spider Rom which doesn't want other great beings to interfere with the human world although he's a great being himself.
The Church is clearly pissed off because of this, they seem unable to defeat him on their own.
Also what's this Moonpresence that Laurence ends up summoning? And this paleblood we have to find?
But the biggest WTF is....what do hunters have to do in all this? What's the hunting night precisely? They sign a contract, they seem to be trapped in a dream, but when they go to Yarhnam are they still dreaming?
The plot is confusing on the matter, at first the mission seems to be to stop the plague of people turning into beasts, then you kill Rom and basically it seems like you're helping both the Church and the Great Beings to achieve their goals...but then you went on destroying the nightmare dimension and the nightmare baby..........so what?? ^_^'''
Dominic_Shade
Member
You can find corpses of Snatchers here and there in the ground level of the Unseen Village. Check the basement of the prison.
Orochinagis
Member
Because you are not the first Hunter send to the Hunting night but the hunter to end the Hunt season this time.
Killing Rom triggers the Blood moon and the great ones take a step further because it means the moon is in its climax.
I dont have any idea, he is talking but dead and there is no indication if he was an undead or an spirit.
The main irony is the Yharman Church was the one who defiled the humans with the great one blood, the great ones were dormant and went aware of the humans presence after all the blood experiments.
The moon also made the women becomes pregnant with the great ones blood possibly an unintentional side effect or deliberately by the church to generate a human great one.
Beelzebufo
Banned
The red moon shows up during every hint.
The same reason Cathedral Ward door doesn't open until you kill BSB.
Spooky.
^ Originally the Healing Church just relied on beast blood, not great one blood. That seems to be a very recent thing with Iosafka.
I think this goes with the fact that Old Yharnam is still on fire (even though it was said to be burned down long ago), and that the horses from the coach to Cainhurst are alive for the trip but are long-dead corpses after arrival as examples of some sort of time weirdness going on that's not quite explained (yet).
Yes that's what I think as well, but what I really don't get is the goal and purpose of the hunters, the hunting night and the hunter's dream.
At the beginning of the game it seems like the goal is simply to find a way to stop the beast plague but by killing Rom you end up doing the opposite, you're helping the Church and the great beings in their quest to have a human great one, completing the ritual that, as a side consequence, will transform most people in beasts.
But then you kill the nightmare baby and put and end to the nightmare dimension (which isn't clear where it comes from....is it some kind of alternate dimension the Church found to meet the ancient gods?).
Now the endings add further confusion, it's not clear what's the dream and what's the reality also why hunters are said to be trapped in a dream? It seems to me that only Ghernam is trapped in the dream dimension. He probably was trapped there long ago and he seems to expect Willem and Laurence to come to rescue him.
If we are following the original goal of saving Yharnam the ''good ending'' should be the first one (hironically the easiest to get without a final boss battle) where you accept to die to wake up in the newly saved Yharnam....but if you wake up in a better place and achieving your original goal.....why that should be consided a sacrifice? Are there multiple dimensions? Or it's just a way to symbolize the loss of memories as a hunter and the death in the dimension of the hunter's dream?
Anyway if you choose to die your grave is added in the hunter's dream dimension and considering how many tombs are there....coud it mean that the curse is perpetual, Yharnam can never be truly saved, an other night will come, other hunters will arrive? Although if Rom is dead the cycle can't begin again as it was....
The third ending seems to be more in line with the "what if I like what the Church was doing and I don't want to stop the plague anymore?" The player becomes a great one himself starting a new era for humans like the Church wanted. But in this case I feel like I should have been given the choice not to kill the baby....although in this case the plan is even more evil...killing him to take his place but it doesn't come out of a choice....so it doesn't feel like it should.
In the second ending you replace Ghernam who is finally free in death...at that point it is said that the hunting begins again....always this cyclical thing....but what's the goal of replacing Ghernam? Helping future hunters to save Yharnam doesn't make sense....I mean we just did it!! The fact that a great one appears in the hunter's dream dimension adds confusion...again it's not clear if you're supposed to be against them or if you're helping them. Also it seems like the game asks you to make choices without knowing the consequences in any case.
In the forbidden woods, you find the clothes of someone else whose item description basically says that they both ran into the Eldritch Truth, and went mad and serve him even in death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB_p_ZPWvLs (9:10)
that message pretty much confirms it's Laurence's skull innit?
to me it seemed like
-Accept Ending: Gehrman saves you and you're no longer a hunter, while he continues to search for a replacement
-Refuse Ending: you replace Gehrman, effectively saving him. (remember that in order to save someone you have to kill them in the dream apparently, which is what he did for you in the first ending)
-True Ending: you arguably save humanity?
that message pretty much confirms it's Laurence's skull innit?
to me it seemed like
-Accept Ending: Gehrman saves you and you're no longer a hunter, while he continues to search for a replacement
-Refuse Ending: you replace Gehrman, effectively saving him. (remember that in order to save someone you have to kill them in the dream apparently, which is what he did for you in the first ending)
-True Ending: you arguably save humanity?
I talked to someone at SCEJ about the story a bit. He said the team is impressed with how fast and accurately people are figuring things out.
Some things I think were said in confidence and they don't want to take the fun out of the discovery but since we've been speculating about this here, indeed Laurence drank too much blood, became a beast, and that is his skull on the altar at the Grand Cathedral.
Some things I think were said in confidence and they don't want to take the fun out of the discovery but since we've been speculating about this here, indeed Laurence drank too much blood, became a beast, and that is his skull on the altar at the Grand Cathedral.
DrDrizzay101
Member
Makes a lot of sense considering the very clear departure from Wilem's "fear the old blood" to Amelia's "seek the old blood" while praying in front of the skull, combined with the flashback scene talking about betrayal.
well, when you wake up, the hunt continues. nothing changes for Gherman or the world.
the True Ending is where you become a baby great one and will most likely alter events for humanity since you know what's up.
which begs the question
would you rather be a mere mortal/human or an immortal slug?
I dunno guys, but I'm not willing to give up my sexual urges, I mean, just look at Rom
DrDrizzay101
Member
Don't have to assume, it's explicitly mentioned in the trophy description
I don't think "just waking up" describes that ending quite right however. Too much other stuff going on and too much ambiguity. You wake up but you also lose the value of the knowledge and experiences you'd gained, like Micolash's lament that "now I'll forget everything." Of course if ignorance is bliss... who knows!
I've never been crazy about classifying Souls endings as "good" or "bad," feels too reductive.
when you grow up, you'll have plenty of urges.
It's that theme of "change" that we see in all of the Souls games. In ending 1 and 2, essentially nothing changes. Gehrman remains in ending one, and in ending 2, you become the new Gehrman. There's no change, the hunt continues, the moon presence is still manipulating the hunters dream.
In ending 3, there's change. You killed Moon Presence and have ascended. I interpret this as meaning that, since you weren't originally a great one, you have had the human experience and know how dangerous the hunt/blood/dreaming is to everyone and will act to stop/minimize this.
You don't want to get it on with Ebrietas and all her many appendages? What's wrong with you?
Icomp
Member
I take it as a lust for power, you become an infant great one, having consumed the umbiblical cords. And moon presence is threatened by your power and attacks you because of that.
Glitchesarecool
Member
There are important parts of the story surrounding getting women pregnant by the great ones, and mentions of pregnancy among them. I think sexual urges are covered.
I don't assume that at all. the cords simply give you more Insight so you're able to reject the Presence from taking control over you. But what else can you do when that happens? Beat the shit outta it since it wants to kill you.
Karsticles
Member
You "wake up", but that isn't the real world. Notice how the Doll is wishing you luck at your gravestone afterward. It's not a good thing, and I don't know why people keep thinking it is. Your dream self is closer to reality than the "real world". It's basically the "I give up" option. Old Ones still exist, as does the church and the hunt. You just aren't a part of it anymore.
It attacks you because it can't absorb you.
Icomp
Member
Since the whole premise of gehrman seems to be that of the will of the moon presence to stop Mergo, which seems to be an incredibly powerfull great one, having sustained a nightmare without a host while being a baby. It only seems reasonable that it would fear you and try to stop you at the last minute.
Would you even care, though? How insignificant is everything we hold dear when compared to the eldritch truth of the universe is a recurring theme in this kind of narrative. When you have as much insight as a great one, would you even care about humanity?
You basically give up on the superior knowledge you acquired and just keep going oblivious to the Truth, then? That's interesting and fits the game's themes.
I think that's up for interpretation in the end mainly because of what you decide to do through the course of the game. Did you help people along the way or ignore/kill of them etc? I think how we see the True ending is up to us.
For example, I tried helping everyone so I assume I'll be helping humanity. But if you think your character is gonna be evil, then I can see the other side of this thought. I don't see any absolutes with the way they ended the True ending. All we know from the trophy description is we're "lifting" humanity altho who knows what that really means.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I wonder how Rom ascended as opposed to what you do. Because it'd be hard to usher in anything if you were a harmless vacuous collection of eyes.
it means a possible sequel or DLC!
but seriously, I think you're gonna change things but whether the world becomes better or worse is up to your character.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I wonder how Rom ascended as opposed to what you do. Because it'd be hard to usher in anything if you were a harmless vacuous collection of eyes.
You can kill the host of a party and the venue would still exist
I dont think its a question of good or evil, if you become a Great One you are entirely post-human and beyond conventional morality. At that point its not a question of liking or disliking humanity its that youve moved to a scale where humanity is simply insgnificant and unimportant. This insignificance is generally a key element of the horror in Lovecraftian/cosmic horror. But the game is only really wearing the trappings of cosmic horror and routinely subverts this particular element so from that perspective it doesnt add much to the argument for or against it.
I wonder how Rom ascended as opposed to what you do. Because it'd be hard to usher in anything if you were a harmless vacuous collection of eyes.
You can kill the host of a party and the venue would still exist
That's what I interpreted as well, as the game letting us know that dreams and nightmares are parallel dimensions where the great ones can inhabit, and not just a temporary place that exists only while we sleep, but you also see bodies with Mensis Cages inside the nightmare, not to mention the many bodies outside, so I just assumed that maybe I was wrong, and they needed to keep replacing them.
But then again, Micolash is a mummy, you clearly don't have an expiration date once you start the nightmare.
And I still have no idea of what The One Reborn is.