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[LCfiner]

*throws up hands* They modified the iPad to include magnets for a damn cover. I mean how much more frivolous can you get? My point was to show that while the ideal is supposedly fingers and and app, the abstraction is leaky and breaks down all the time to show other stuff. That ideal is not a good enough reason to remove all possibility of a pen.

I suppose I just see a clear divide between modifications made to support a case vs modifications made to the screen to support special hardware pens.

The smart cover makes the iPad less of a tech-y device and more friendly and obvious to turn on for a lot of people. that makes the engineering worth it to Apple. but it does not impact the way you interact with the screen. that's the key difference. that interaction always needs to be dead simple and obvious.

 

[twobear]

It's slightly OT but, for everyone expecting a larger screen on iPhone 5, how do you think they will deal with the Retina Display and backwards-compatibility?

I mean the iPhone 4 worked because they kept the screen size the same but quadrupled the resolution, to give it absurd PPI and easy backwards compatibility (blow each up pixel up to 4 pixels)

But if they make the screen bigger and kept the same res the PPI would be lower, and I don't know if I could go back to less PPI now without it hurting my delicate, refined corneas.

Would they make the screen 4" and give it 5/4 of the pixels of the iPhone 4 or what

 

[Crazymoogle]

It's slightly OT but, for everyone expecting a larger screen on iPhone 5, how do you think they will deal with the Retina Display and backwards-compatibility?

Same pixels. The end. The only thing I think they could even consider would be iPad resolutions and that is problematic for a number of reasons.

 

[Synth_floyd]

PPI will go down slightly but otherwise everything else will stay the same. "Retina Display" is just a marketing term.

 

[Tobor]

*throws up hands* They modified the iPad to include magnets for a damn cover. I mean how much more frivolous can you get? My point was to show that while the ideal is supposedly fingers and and app, the abstraction is leaky and breaks down all the time to show other stuff. That ideal is not a good enough reason to remove all possibility of a pen.

The smart cover is far more beneficial than a stylus, and can be sold to a wide variety of users.

 

[twobear]

PPI will go down slightly but otherwise everything else will stay the same. "Retina Display" is just a marketing term.

Making the display 1/2" larger would cause quite a significant drop in PPI, no?

And it was called Retina because they claimed at average viewing distance the pixels would be totally resolved, no? If they lost that in an 'upgrade' it would be a big loss and would make the screen no better than the competition.

 

[Keylime]

Making the display 1/2" larger would cause quite a significant drop in PPI, no?

And it was called Retina because they claimed at average viewing distance the pixels would be totally resolved, no? If they lost that in an 'upgrade' it would be a big loss and would make the screen no better than the competition.

Right. I've been saying it forever, but there's no way that a screen size bump isn't coming with a resolution bump to keep it classified as Retina. No way.

 

[LCfiner]

The smart cover is far more beneficial than a stylus, and can be sold to a wide variety of users.

And some stylus makers have used the magnets as a spot to securely store the stylus.

EVERYONE'S A WINNER!

Right. I've been saying it forever, but there's no way that a screen size bump isn't coming with a resolution bump to keep it classified as Retina. No way.

you're on.

any non-integer resolution bump is a non starter. period. look at all the stuff Apple has done with High res iPad assets (2x) and the new Hi DPI mode for Macs hidden away (also 2X). they are not looking to have minor resolution changes for their high res displays.

any iphone with a bigger screen will keep the same pixels. anything else would muck up the development ecosystem for no real benefit aside from numbers on a marketing checklist

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Right. I've been saying it forever, but there's no way that a screen size bump isn't coming with a resolution bump to keep it classified as Retina. No way.

I'd agree with you. If iPhone 5 jumps to a 4.3" or bigger screen there will be a resolution bump.

 

[Blackhead]

I suppose I just see a clear divide between modifications made to support a case vs modifications made to the screen to support special hardware pens.

The smart cover makes the iPad less of a tech-y device and more friendly and obvious to turn on for a lot of people. that makes the engineering worth it to Apple. but it does not impact the way you interact with the screen. that's the key difference. that interaction always needs to be dead simple and obvious.

The pen wouldn't replace the finger. It would be another option, like the external keyboard. Apple themselves empoy styluses in their stores and present in to users, when signing receipts on an iPod Touch, instead of requiring them to use a finger.

The smart cover is far more beneficial than a stylus, and can be sold to a wide variety of users.

Agree to disagree.

 

[LCfiner]

The pen wouldn't replace the finger. It would be another option, like the external keyboard. Apple themselves empoy styluses in their stores and present in to users, when signing receipts on an iPod Touch, instead of requiring them to use a finger.

Agree to disagree.

note that they got rid of the keyboard dock after the first year. now you just use the Mac bluetooth keyboard.

and I didn't say that Apple would do anything to prevent existing capacitive stylii from working. Just that they won't do anything pressure sensitive or bundle a stylus in the box.

if you want to buy a third party stylus, they won't stop you. but they're not going to offer it as an option out of the box or do anything to make stylus support more like wacam digitizers.

 

[Blackhead]

note that they got rid of the keyboard dock after the first year. now you just use the Mac bluetooth keyboard.

and I didn't say that Apple would do anything to prevent existing capacitive stylii from working. Just that they won't do anything pressure sensitive or bundle a stylus in the box.

if you want to buy a third party stylus, they won't stop you. but they're not going to offer it as an option out of the box or do anything to make stylus support more like wacam digitizers.

Apple doesn't bundle the smartcover with iPad either so that doesn't really mean anything. On the other hand, they bundle headphones with the iPhone and have on previous occassions bundled docks with the iPods. If they don't bundle a pen with iPad it wouldn't be because it's a niche product, it'll be because they are a *gasp* a profit grubing company who loves high margins.

 

[Soybean]

I can't see any scenario in which Apple would fragment their product line any more than it is. 480x320, 960x640, 1024x768, and 2014x1536. Pigs could fly, so I won't say it'll never happen, but it seems like a crazy thing to do for minimal gain. Either the screen size stays the same or you get a marginal decrease in ppi.

 

[Woz]

I think it will be more easy to see a smart pressure sensitive stylus, BT or connected to the dock port. I'd buy one instantly.

 

[LCfiner]

Apple doesn't bundle the smartcover with iPad either so that doesn't really mean anything. On the other hand, they bundle headphones with the iPhone and have on previous occassions bundled docks with the iPods. If they don't bundle a pen with iPad it wouldn't be because it's a niche product, it'll be because they are a *gasp* a profit grubing company who loves high margins.

If they were to ever screw up so bad that they bundle a pen with an iPad, it would be because they want you to use the pen a lot. it sends a message that the pen is an essential part of the experience if it comes in the box.

they'll never bundle a pen because they don't give a fuck about pens.

Margins don't even come into it. They wouldn't even get that far in the discussion because anyone who would ever suggest bundling a pen with an ipad would get tossed out of the office by Cook like Uncle Phil tossing out DJ Jazzy Jeff out the front door on Fresh Prince.

 

[Keylime]

you're on.

any non-integer resolution bump is a non starter. period. look at all the stuff Apple has done with High res iPad assets (2x) and the new Hi DPI mode for Macs hidden away (also 2X). they are not looking to have minor resolution changes for their high res displays.

any iphone with a bigger screen will keep the same pixels. anything else would muck up the development ecosystem for no real benefit aside from numbers on a marketing checklist

Oh shit...

I didn't think I'd be challenged from WITHIN the circle of trust! Apple is moving towards higher resolution displays across all product lines if the rumors are to be trusted. The device that started the whole "Retina" revolution was the iPhone, and there is no way they backpedal from that. They will either pick a resolution that matches the iPad for easy scaling, or pick a resolution that easily scales from the current one so they can just up-res existing apps without any developer interaction.

Either way, I think the philosophical "we want our customers to experience great displays across the entire product line" far outweighs the "it will be slightly inconvenient to the developers to have to tailor their apps to an upres'd screen". Heck, if they go with iPad resolutions they are basically making universal apps the standard.

 

[twobear]

but ipad screen = 4:3, iphone screen = 3:2?

 

[Keylime]

but ipad screen = 4:3, iphone screen = 3:2?

Currently, sure.

 

[twobear]

so you think the iphone 5 will be 4:3? that would be a hard sell

 

[brotkasten]

Currently, sure.

I can't wait for Apple to adopt the superior 16:9 format on all devices.

 

[LCfiner]

Oh shit...

I didn't think I'd be challenged from WITHIN the circle of trust! Apple is moving towards higher resolution displays across all product lines if the rumors are to be trusted. The device that started the whole "Retina" revolution was the iPhone, and there is no way they backpedal from that. They will either pick a resolution that matches the iPad for easy scaling, or pick a resolution that easily scales from the current one so they can just up-res existing apps without any developer interaction.

Either way, I think the philosophical "we want our customers to experience great displays across the entire product line" far outweighs the "it will be slightly inconvenient to the developers to have to tailor their apps to an upres'd screen". Heck, if they go with iPad resolutions they are basically making universal apps the standard.

the iPhone was the first with the high res display. and how do you think they got to that resolution? they didn't arbitrarily pick 326 ppi because it's above 300 and they wanted that value for their retina marketing.

they wanted a clean 2X resolution jump from the first iPhone to allow for a more seamless transition for developers and so the 326 ppi came along for the ride. They stuck with a low res screen for a long time while they were being leapfrogged by the competition so they could make this 2X jump. they didn't do anything in between.

In the same way, we're going to see a 266 ppi iPad because they need that clean 2X jump from the iPad 1 and more 2X jumps across their laptops. it's a pretty clear pattern...

creating some weird 1.3X jump for the iPhone, breaking pixel perfect app compatibility with earlier versions of the iPhone just to meet that arbitrary 300 ppi number is not something Apple is going to do.

 

[Keylime]

so you think the iphone 5 will be 4:3? that would be a hard sell

That, or they just pick a res that's a slight bump from the current 960x480 so everything scales appropriately without developer changes, but is available if someone wants to take advantage of it directly. The OS would run natively at the new res of course, but apps would all upscale at first and then over time be updated to fit the new resolution (same way it happened with the jump to the iPhone 4).

2X vs. 1.3X jump arguement

I get what you mean, but again...I don't think Apple has any interest in declassifying any of their products as Retina. It was one of the biggest selling features of the current line of phones...and to remove classification from the new device would be Apple admitting that screen size, not resolution..is what matters at the end of the day.

I don't buy it for a minute. I'd take a self-ban bet that if the iPhone 5 isn't Retina, I'll take a 1 month ban even!

 

[kehs]

The smart cover is far more beneficial than a stylus, and can be sold to a wide variety of users.

Insanity.

 

[twobear]

That, or they just pick a res that's a slight bump from the current 960x480 so everything scales appropriately without developer changes, but is available if someone wants to take advantage of it directly. The OS would run natively at the new res of course, but apps would all upscale at first and then over time be updated to fit the new resolution (same way it happened with the jump to the iPhone 4).

yeah, i kind of think this

it makes sense if you think about it, because if the screen has very high PPI then artefacts from upscaling are harder to spot

 

[twobear]

Insanity.

cover to keep HUGE SHINY SCREEN safe + stand is for sure more useful than a stylus that virtually nobody so far has actually needed

 

[LCfiner]

That, or they just pick a res that's a slight bump from the current 960x480 so everything scales appropriately without developer changes, but is available if someone wants to take advantage of it directly. The OS would run natively at the new res of course, but apps would all upscale at first and then over time be updated to fit the new resolution (same way it happened with the jump to the iPhone 4).

But it doesn't work like that. you introduce weird aliasing if you do anything other than 2x or 4X.

the easy jump to the iPhone 4 res worked because it was a 2X jump...

 

[Keylime]

But it doesn't work like that. you introduce weird aliasing if you do anything other than 2x or 4X.

the easy jump to the iPhone 4 res worked because it was a 2X jump...

Won't be a problem for the operating system, just the apps...and those can be updated just as easily. During the transition they will upscale...after action they'll fit the new native resolution.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

For the record, an iPhone 5 with a 4" screen at 960x640 would have a PPI of 288. Which is still insanely high.

An iPhone 5 with a 3.7" screen would have a PPI of around 311.

This is down from the ~330 of the iPhone 4/4S.

I really don't think they need to increase resolution unless they make the device big.

I would be happy with a 3.7" screen. I would love, but wouldn't want anything bigger than, a 4" screen.

 

[Keylime]

For the record, an iPhone 5 with a 4" screen at 960x640 would have a PPI of 288. Which is still insanely high.

An iPhone 5 with a 3.7" screen would have a PPI of around 311.

This is down from the ~330 of the iPhone 4/4S.

I really don't think they need to increase resolution unless they make the device big.

I would be happy with a 3.7" screen. I would love, but wouldn't want anything bigger than, a 4" screen.

As long as they could still call it "Retina" ... aka "not able to distinguish individual pixels while holding the device a certain distance from your face"... I don't think they'd care if it's 330 or 318 or 322...as long as it still can be defined as "Retina" that's all that matters.

Hell, if something's Retina than there are no immediate benefits to added resolution anyways! Once you cross that line, you're good.

 

[noah111]

As long as they could still call it "Retina" ... aka "not able to distinguish individual pixels while holding the device a certain distance from your face"... I don't think they'd care if it's 330 or 318 or 322...as long as it still can be defined as "Retina" that's all that matters.

Hell, if something's Retina than there are no immediate benefits to added resolution anyways! Once you cross that line, you're good.

Sure, the theory becomes that the bigger the screen, the further your face will naturally be from it, and thus lower PPI becomes acceptable.

 

[Tobor]

Insanity.

I expect Charred to disagree, but you too?

 

[LCfiner]

Won't be a problem for the operating system, just the apps...and those can be updated just as easily. During the transition they will upscale...after action they'll fit the new native resolution.

But... that's what all of this is about. Apps. The part of the OS that we interact with is mostly just an app launcher.

The apps are the OS. the apps are the device.

I don't see how you can look at the moves Apple has made and how careful they've been about resolution changes only to think they'll throw all that out to maintain some meaningless >300 ppi resolution instead of sticking with the same AR and pixels they have now, even if they move to a 4" screen.

 

[kehs]

I expect Charred to disagree, but you too?

I use a stylus on my Nexus, it's amazing.

 

[Keylime]

But... that's what all of this is about. Apps. The part of the OS that we interact with is mostly just an app launcher.

The apps are the OS. the apps are the device.

I don't see how you can look at the moves Apple has made and how careful they've been about resolution changes only to think they'll throw all that out to maintain some meaningless >300 ppi resolution instead of sticking with the same AR and pixels they have now, even if they move to a 4" screen.

I'm telling you...this thing won't lose the Retina classification if it gets bigger. Not a chance!

Seems like we're at a standstill so we'll wait a bunch of months and see. But again, since Retina was a huge selling point of the 4 and the 4S, there's no way they decide to back down from that just to get a bigger screen if that's the route they are going.

 

[Tobor]

I use a stylus on my Nexus, it's amazing.

Whether or not you like it personally wasn't my point. We're all edge cases in our own way.

 

[LCfiner]

I'm telling you...this thing won't lose the Retina classification if it gets bigger. Not a chance!

Seems like we're at a standstill so we'll wait a bunch of months and see. But again, since Retina was a huge selling point of the 4 and the 4S, there's no way they decide to back down from that just to get a bigger screen if that's the route they are going.

Dude... It won't lose the retina classification because Apple decides what constitutes retina classification.

the iPad with a 266 ppi screen will be called a retina screen and no one outside Apple haters on message boards will complain about it being sub 300 ppi.


oh, and side note: I still think the next iPhone will have a 3.5" screen so all this talk will be moot, anyway

 

[Keylime]

Dude... It won't lose the retina classification because Apple decides what constitutes retina classification.

the iPad with a 266 ppi screen will be called a retina screen and no one outside Apple haters on message boards will complain about it being sub 300 ppi.


oh, and side note: I still think the next iPhone will have a 3.5" screen so all this talk will be moot, anyway

Retina isn't a made up standard, though...it's just a made up Apple word for that standard.

The next device will fall above that line.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

I don't know who is right, but I do think you are building up the importance of Retina/300dpi a little too much, Rubyx. I can see both sides of the argument and think its an interesting debate but nobody, and I mean *nobody* will blink an eye if they release a larger screened iPhone with a lower DPI. Its a complete non-issue. Apple has to know that, too.

I think I'm in the fantasy camp of a 4:3 iPhone with some sort of capacitive bezel. Then there won't be any nonsense between "is it for iPad or iPhone?" it will just be iOS at 1024 and 2048.

e:
You know, I've been thinking about that last sentence and I didn't really think that one through..

 

[diehard]

[/IMG]

The next device will fall above that line.

226 is on the line at about a foot and half, which isn't a ridiculous viewing distance for a tablet.

wait, it would be 226 right?

 

[Jacobi]

I don't know who is right, but I do think you are building up the importance of Retina/300dpi a little too much, Rubyx. I can see both sides of the argument and think its an interesting debate but nobody, and I mean *nobody* will blink an eye if they release a larger screened iPhone with a lower DPI. Its a complete non-issue. Apple has to know that, too.

Yep, Apple will be like "The best display ever... NOW BIGGER!"
And people will be like "Oh, great!"

 

[LCfiner]

Retina isn't a made up standard, though...it's just a made up Apple word for that standard.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a278/Rubxqub/20100712-gnp2xmug237adetiktunhchuew-1-670x488.jpg[IMG]

The next device will fall above that line.[/QUOTE]

I know what you're trying to say but it won't matter. Apple has more to lose to modify the resolution away from 960 x 640 than they would by having a ppi of 288 (worst case if they went for a 4" screen.)

if Apple ever changes the number of pixels on an iPhone, it'll be if they change the [I]entire aspect ratio and User Interface of the phone[/I].

They'll come in one year and show a whole new revamp of iOS with buttons in different locations and different swipe gestures all sorts of shit and, oh yeah, the screen is now 4" and has a different pixel ratio and density to make all this new shit look and work better.

that's how they will do it. Not as an in between half jump from 960 x 640 to, say, 1152 by 768 with nothing else changed.

edit:

[quote="dIEHARD, post: 35195328"]226 is on the line at about a foot and half, which isn't a ridiculous viewing distance for a tablet.

wait, it would be 226 right?[/QUOTE]


iPad would be 266 (133 x 2)

 

[Gamecocks625]

I'm utterly floored that there is actual debate about resolution, pens, etc.

Resolution will not increase with iPhone 6. They'll increase the size of the screen but still keep the same resolution if anything. PPI will not cross the 300 PPI threshold. Whatever screen size gets near that...that's what the screen size will be for iPhone 6. If that's 3.7 or 3.75, then there ya go. None of this crazy 4.5inch screen crap.

Apple will not simply bump res by 1.3 or whatever. I can't believe people will say "well app developers can just convert their apps". Whatever. That kind of thinking would get you laughed out of Apple.

As for pens, after using a stylus for a few days...yeah sure it's cool and all, but there is absolutely no way it should be regarded as the dominate input. This thing isn't a big Nintendo DS. Multitouch would have no place on a device where you are expected to use a pen as the dominate input. Fingers...it's the fingers. Anyways, probably depends on the creation side of things. Drawing and art? Sure...use a stylus...3rd parties have been making them. Go for it. But there's no way the iPhone or iPad would ever bundle or release a Apple-built stylus. If so...yeah they've failed.

whew.

 

[Kosmo]

OK, I'm a big Apple fan, and wouldn't mind a higher-res screen, but can someone answer me this:

If I have an iPad 2 (I actually have an original one), what's the case for upgrading if all I do is web, email, Netflix?

There has to be something more to it than than just a higher res screen and a faster chip.

 

[kehs]

Whether or not you like it personally wasn't my point. We're all edge cases in our own way.

I don't know dude, just about every single customer of mine that sees my tablet is surprised and enthralled by the fact I can use a stylus on it.

(Which is so ridiculous considering OG tablets.)

 

[Betta Lines]

As for pens, after using a stylus for a few days...yeah sure it's cool and all, but there is absolutely no way it should be regarded as the dominate input. This thing isn't a big Nintendo DS. Multitouch would have no place on a device where you are expected to use a pen as the dominate input. Fingers...it's the fingers. Anyways, probably depends on the creation side of things. Drawing and art? Sure...use a stylus...3rd parties have been making them. Go for it. But there's no way the iPhone or iPad would ever bundle or release a Apple-built stylus. If so...yeah they've failed.

whew.

I think people who take this opinion don't appreciate the vast difference between a capacitive finger alternative (that is loosely named a stylus) and an actual stylus that you get on Wacom products.

The 3rd party styluses, even the Wacom BAMBOO one, are utter shit, because they just replicate a finger. There is very limited accuracy, lag, no pressure sensitivity and no decent palm detection.

If Apple were to make a stylus as well intergrated as the Smart Cover that aimed to compete against the likes of the Wacom Cintiq, then that is an entirely different thing, and a MASSIVE plus point for the device. There are millions of artists and designers out there who would immediately jump on the iPad bandwagon if they did this properly. It's not a niche market at all.

 

[charlequin]

Retina isn't a made up standard, though...

I think you should pay more attention to Apple's UX choices and hardware/software engineering philosophies and less to the random BS they cite as explanation of their nomenclature. Every single reason that applied to the rez-doubling on iPhone applies in precisely the same way to the iPad, so that's the approach they're gonna take.

If Apple were to make a stylus as well intergrated as the Smart Cover that aimed to compete against the likes of the Wacom Cintiq, then that is an entirely different thing, and a MASSIVE plus point for the device.

There's still no reason to pack it in with the device, though. It's exactly like syncing with a keyboard: not a niche use case necessarily, but outside the bounds of the bog standard use case. Give it a snappy name and sell it for $100.

 

[Tobor]

Rub, I love ya, but you're wrong. They will double the pixels on the iPad, and call it a Retina Display. The PPI is irrelevant. If they increase the screen on the iPhone, they'll still call it a Retina Display.

 

[Cheebo]

OK, I'm a big Apple fan, and wouldn't mind a higher-res screen, but can someone answer me this:

If I have an iPad 2 (I actually have an original one), what's the case for upgrading if all I do is web, email, Netflix?

There has to be something more to it than than just a higher res screen and a faster chip.

All of that will look way better due to retina, especial movies and text. And since you have the original the speed increase will blow away what your iPad 1 does by a extremely sizeable amount.

It will also likely have far better cameras and Siri.

 

[Good Job Bob]

I don't know dude, just about every single customer of mine that sees my tablet is surprised and enthralled by the fact I can use a stylus on it.

(Which is so ridiculous considering OG tablets.)

People are often entranced by gimmicks.

 

[Slappers Only]

Both LCfiner and RubxQub are making a lot of sense in here. I'm slightly Team Rub, but only because I hope he or she is right.

It is on indeed.