This is exactly Sony wants you to do - it's an up-sell, and is a cornerstone of the electronic goods market.
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Bloomberg - Sony cuts PS5 production by 4 million units, $449 and $399 price
- Thread starter Craig of War
- Start date
This is exactly Sony wants you to do - it's an up-sell, and is a cornerstone of the electronic goods market.
Grinchy
Banned
It's kinda weird that just a few months ago, it was being said that they'd make 10 million units and I had a hard time believing that.
Now, we're being told it was actually going to be 15 million, but reduced by 4 to make 11 million. So was it 15 all along? Or did they raise estimates and then lower them again? No matter what, 11 million units by March still sounds insane.
Now, we're being told it was actually going to be 15 million, but reduced by 4 to make 11 million. So was it 15 all along? Or did they raise estimates and then lower them again? No matter what, 11 million units by March still sounds insane.
You will probably have a hard time finding the next year aswell.
ZywyPL
Banned
I won't be surprised if Sony really comes up with those prices, coming out second with a lower price tag made wonders for the PS4, so it's understandable Sony would want to repeat the same stunt for PS5, especially judging by their yearly financial reports and profits from PS Plus alone. Playstation is one of their most, if not THE most lucrative divisions, they cannot risk any missteps and adjusting on the fly like MS does, they have to go all-in and gain momentum from the get-go. If the DE is really 399, and you can get XB through All-Access program, this generation has a very high chance to become the cheapest hence the fastest generational shifts ever, needless to say, the sooner the PS4/XB1 are left behind and cross-gen titles period is over the better.
HaveButOneLife
Banned
It needs to be less, why buy a less powerful console that's weaker specs wise and won't have very many worthwhile exclusives until next year? Hopefully they're smart about pricing.
Probably, but MS has a ERP on its sleeves, I always had the feeling that they would match XSX, if Sony does this , MS will follow .
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Whta FUD? It's a Bloomberg article...
Felessan
Member
If it's a Bloomberg article you should be ready for 400/450$ price tags. And Xbox being obliterated to oblivion.Whta FUD? It's a Bloomberg article...
It's now make sense why Sony almost tripled initial plan (from 6 mil for fiscal year to 15 mil), and now have to settle just a little under x2 initial projection and still more than ps4.
Though "RROD level of failure" is a clear FUD. Estimated initial yield rate was 68%, and it went down to 50%, not so fatal drop, not a level from near perfect to very bad for sure.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
I don't care about sales mate... I don't have Sony stock, and MSFT stock isn't influenced by Xbox
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Whta FUD? It's a Bloomberg article...
Yes but I have reservations about the article writer (I've said this before because of stuff he wrote/Tweeted when he was with WSJ).
I'm waiting for tomorrow to see if we get more info about this or at least indications from pricing/availability for further insight. I just can't correlate the lower 11 million by March production target with awful low 50% yields. This works out to 16.5 million made over a full year or just under 1.4 million a month.
Bottom line is that 11 million made in this initial period is huge and would/will be a record. So I'm not sure what the issue is!
LeftThumbstick
Member
This guy gets it.
HeresJohnny
Member
$449 is much, much better than $500. It's only $50 but there's a mental barrier for $500. Plus they'll reach $399 faster than Microsoft will then too.
Keep in mind, $400 is still enthusiast pricing. These machines need to be sub $200 to be mass market, but it's a good start.
I firmly believe this. Sony isn't dumb enough to go 5+ on a console again. They understand the console market and know what they need to do.
Keep in mind, $400 is still enthusiast pricing. These machines need to be sub $200 to be mass market, but it's a good start.
I firmly believe this. Sony isn't dumb enough to go 5+ on a console again. They understand the console market and know what they need to do.
LeftThumbstick
Member
Jesus Christ you guys are so bloody sensitive.
you talk about Xbox fans defending Phils honour but what exactly are you doing? It's alright to talk absolute shit about Xbox in any thread and ALWAYS compare it to PS and it's games.
As soon as any slight negativity towards PS5 is mentioned or even hinted at its FUD FUD FUD, even though this comes from Bloomberg.
Stop being a white knight yourself, and a hypocrite while you're at it.
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Agnostic2020
Member
Lol ur understanding of manufacturing line is hilarious.
Low yield means they r rejecting more chips. Chips that pass certification will be placed in the box . Yield has no bearing on the issues inside the console
jimbojim
Banned
iamvin22
Industry Verified
Every thread we get these types of post. People never learn.
jimbojim
Banned
Dusk Golem, is that you?
geordiemp
Member
Sony dont have issues anymore than Apple or Microsoft if its a TSMC fab tooling issue.
Parametric yields will be well defined with statistics, as is every layer of semi process.
Stop talking crap, fanboys talking about semiconductor are so far out of their league its embarrasing for them.
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ethomaz
Banned
That doesn't make sense because they are already selling the chips that won't have issues to us.
That is how semiconductor chips works.
The good chips are good.
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SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
The only embarrassed 'fanboy' is the one who claimed clocks don't affect yields, hilariously claimed to work in semiconductor manufacturing only for it to turn out Sony is having abysmally low yields on PS5 apus.
lostinblue
Banned
It just occurred to me, if the bad yield rate happens on either the CPU clock or the GPU CU unit number, perhaps Microsoft is going through the same with the XSS and XSX line of consoles.
But in their case bad yields could be usable. They just have to turn off part of the chip.
One way to see it, is you sold your PS4 for that amount and the money went directly for the drive so it's a "free upgrade/tradein" of sorts. For people that keep both, spending extra might not justify the cost.
But worse is what that initial all-digital user base signals for the market. Drive will be useful for back-compat, but useless for current gen. And Back Compact usually doesn't sell consoles.
I loathe BluRays, to be honest, but I would be satisfied with game cards (like the switch or vita), that didn't contain the game, but instead a licence. But I understand, that would mostly only have advantages for us, consumers.
But in their case bad yields could be usable. They just have to turn off part of the chip.
True, but after the PS5 launches, any PS4 console will be worth $100 anyway, perhaps less.
One way to see it, is you sold your PS4 for that amount and the money went directly for the drive so it's a "free upgrade/tradein" of sorts. For people that keep both, spending extra might not justify the cost.
But worse is what that initial all-digital user base signals for the market. Drive will be useful for back-compat, but useless for current gen. And Back Compact usually doesn't sell consoles.
I loathe BluRays, to be honest, but I would be satisfied with game cards (like the switch or vita), that didn't contain the game, but instead a licence. But I understand, that would mostly only have advantages for us, consumers.
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Phrixotrichus
Banned
No idea how trustworthy Bloomberg is, but I´d like a 449$/€ pricetag....so...go Bloomberg!...I guess?
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
CU based yields are relatively easy to work around. Its why consoles have more CUs than they actually use and GPU manufactures can have cards using the same dies but at different CU counts.
Clock based yields are a go or no go problem. The console has to be able to hit and maintain a nominal clock speed.
Embedded ram is another issue altogether. I would assume chips with embedded ram have more than what is the nominal amount so they have some redundancy but there are further complications with interconnects and buses etc.
So far every console with embedded ram appears to have had additional yield issues over more conventional designs (360, XB1 and PS5).
lostinblue
Banned
Thing is neither of those is targeting 2.23GHz on the GPU, on a SOC.
The console being a huge heat-spreader is clearly not for show. If the yields were good, that's just that, but if they're not, well...
Yes, precisely. But if PS5 has 40 CU's, with 4 disabled, but a lot of the manufacturing currently ends up having more than 4 damaged ones (or ones that can't possibly work at 2.23 GHz), then those units are trashed.
Suddenly, a lower spec model could be a way to still be able to use them. Now, I doubt that's what Microsoft is doing, but that would mean a lot of foreshadowing. So I'd be impressed.
Certainly less-bad than a $100 premium.
I'd also like to see a Xbox Series S with a Disc Drive, for $50 more. Back compat is so good on Xbox consoles that it really hits me hard having to rebuy things (not to mention delisted games, like older Forza games).
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D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Sure, it's the same for the others, that's why they are also reporting about them. Oh no wait it's all a conspiracy from Bloomberg against Sony
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
The XSX and XSS are using different Dies. XSX being 360mm and the XSS being 197mm.
The concept of many tiers of performance isn't common to consoles. It only just started with PS4 pro and XB1X. The difference between them and their base consoles being quite substantial. A GPU style many tiers with small separation wouldn't be a good idea in a market as wide as home consoles.
Birdo
Banned
Neither would Sony.
Thost prices are now an absolute necessity, thanks to MS. Sony's hand has been forced.
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geordiemp
Member
Sure, it's the same for the others, that's why they are also reporting about them. Oh no wait it's all a conspiracy from Bloomberg against Sony
Nobody is reporting, its gossip rumour. If it was factual TSMC would make a statement as they have to do.
Sony wanted 10 million to dec, now 11 million is forcast to march, likely logistics and getting them made than fabs.
Remember TSMC do 30,000 wafer starts a week on 7nm, and each one will have 100 or so die depending on size.
One week production is enough data and statistics that everything is defined accurately. You dont get surprised after you ahve made 300,000 in a week every week.
There is always a KNOWN reason. Always. The design of ps5 and its parametric yeild will be known well in advance and set in stone. Fact.
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lostinblue
Banned
Do we know how much Embedded RAM and at what speed are we talking about yet?
I was googling it, but I only find vague references.
Darklor01
Might need to stop sniffing glue
Isn't it funny, this reporter from Bloomberg is the same one that reported the boost in production in the first place. Is the only source that Nintendo is boosting production of the switch. The only one who is reporting on a 4K ready version Nintendo Switch. ...etc. No one but this one reporter (Occasionally sharing the byline with someone as in this most recent article). In April, before the boosted production news, he put out an article that they planned limited output for PS5.
With all this Nintendo and Sony "news" not a single XBOX article despite his sources being somehow associated with the production of these devices and chip makers. Not one.
He's the only one out there with these sources. The only one creating this news. I'd say that's a bit suspect.
With all this Nintendo and Sony "news" not a single XBOX article despite his sources being somehow associated with the production of these devices and chip makers. Not one.
He's the only one out there with these sources. The only one creating this news. I'd say that's a bit suspect.
LeftThumbstick
Member
Lol ur speling is atrocious. I doubt that if you can't be assed to even spell correctly that your knowledge of chip manufacturing isn't the greatest either.
Still not convinced, because it indicates to me that since you are struggling to even properly develop and manufacture the chip to a point where you are cutting back on nearly half of the orders, then something is wrong.
Imagine trying to lecture someone while putting zero effort into what you type.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
We don't know the exact information other than it was a rather important part of the die as per cernys marketing speech.
We also know that embedded ram is a massive die area hog dependent on how much there is. The 32mb of embedded ram on the XB1 took up as much space as the entire GPU did and caused yield issues all on it's own.
It's hilarious seeing the usual suspect trying to damage control a bloomberg article by claiming that if it affect sony, it must do so for everyone! The reality of the situation is however, Sony is the only one with A) 36(40) CU RDNA 2 gpu at 2.23 ghz B) a large amount of on die ram.
How many of the myriad of other companies that TSMC produce dies for have even remotely the same setup? And of course the one who tries the hardest claims to work in semiconductors but has NFI that clocks have a large affect on yields. It's genuinely hilarious.
geordiemp
Member
And you have no idea what you are talking about that is clear.
TSMC start 30,000 wafers at 7nm on 12" a week. Thats roughly 300,000 die per week.
Statistically the parametric yield to 3 sigma is defined and set in stone for consoles well before full steam ahead. There are no surprises when you make millions, yield does not suddently drop as a surprise.
Every layer is defined to +/- 3 sigma, test wafers and metrology. When thinsg go wrong, and they do, it affects everything.
If that yield has dropped, its not parametric, its a tool defect or issues with materials, gas purity or the like.
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Ten_Fold
Member
Talked with some casuals gamers about this, they are cool with paying more for the disc version so they can still trade games with each other or sell them on FB, but if they can only find digital they will buy. So yes $50 isn't enough to get someone to go digital when they care about physical.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
So you believe this was just a random person creating fud and the journalist made an article about it? For Bloomberg nonetheless. You don't think they check their sources?
You are quoting me but I never written that piece of text.
Maxwell Jacob Friedman
leads to fear. Fear leads to xbox.
Sony actuallyhas exclsuives at launch, what does MS have again. And no, if they are also on the pc that does not make them exclusive
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
he was replying to me but messed up the quoting.
Entroyp
Member
Sure, it's the same for the others, that's why they are also reporting about them. Oh no wait it's all a conspiracy from Bloomberg against Sony
Maybe the other one is not having issues because it need to produce like 2 million only?
Agnostic2020
Member
A troll is not worth more time for me to type everything so i shorten it as much as i can. anyways ur tag suits u well. Bye
lostinblue
Banned
Ah, sorry. Too many quotes :S
yes
Makes sense.
I didn't think it was likely, but lots of manufacturers disable part of their chips when yields are bad. That said I doubt yields are as bad in Microsoft's case.
It was mostly me musing about that anything like that it would be ingenious within the launch window if yields were bad and they thought of that ahead.
Yes.
From what I understood/guessed, it's part of the SSD solution, like a SSD cache on die so I wasn't expecting high performing EDRAM like the one you install to compensate for lack of bandwidth, I assumed the emphasis would be low latency instead.
That gives them a bit more leeway, but yeah, die size and amount of that is always a concern.
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geordiemp
Member
I think the production forcast rumour is correct, the TSMC yield thing is a guess. There are 1000s reasons why people cannot hit full capacity in a 2020 world that affect everybody, and they are still hitting ps4 numbers.
It could also be a controlled leak to get ps5 sales going quicker....they are scarce. Ninetndo do it all the time.
And Sony ps5 die only is laughable as once you have made a million correctly there are no unknowns, the design does not deteriorate. If there was a design issue, it will have been seen in engineering batches. and the many revisions that are done in qual.
Its the fanboy assumption that it must be ps5 design of silicon only and not anything else that is beyond stupid.
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Andodalf
Banned
If anything I think XSX APUs that get binned due to having too many non functional CUs would make great candidates for X cloud. We know that XSX can run 4 instances of an XOS, so if it's missing some CUs just have it only run 3 instances. Wastes some space, but if they want to find a use for the chips this would make sense.
geordiemp
Member
No, the prime metric of servers is power efficiency more than cost.