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[liquidtmd]

Actually, the EU has a bit if a vested interest in the UK crashing. Such a crash would obviously hurt the EU short term, but it's long term existence relies on making an example of the UK. The message has to be: If you leave the EU, you get fucked.

I dunno. I get what you're saying, but the last bit of the message...

So Brexit happens. The UK gets destroyed. Years later, another country in the EU comes to have legitimate very real, very serious concerns about being an EU Member. They want to leave, but the Council get to say "You oppose us, we will crush you like we crushed the UK"?

And many have stated, the EU just need to stay the course and be visible to be firm but fair. Let the UK shoot themselves in the foot with our Governments quite simply breathtakingly shit display. If the EU go too far in 'perceived punishment', it will be counter productive

As Juncker himself said a while back, 'Brexit alone is punishment enough and we don't seek to add to that'. If they keep to that line, all will be fine.

 

[PJV3]

Are you from eaton/oxbridge?

Have you wasted millions of public money on an expensive bushy bridge that your friend wants?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm no patriot, but everytime I read shit Trump or politicans from the UK say to the public, I'm really glad that I'm no citizen of the US nor UK.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I dunno. I get what you're saying, but the last bit of the message...

So Brexit happens. The UK gets destroyed. Years later, another country in the EU comes to have legitimate very real, very serious concerns about being an EU Member. They want to leave, but the Council get to say "You oppose us, we will crush you like we crushed the UK"?

And many have stated, the EU just need to stay the course and be visible to be firm but fair. Let the UK shoot themselves in the foot with our Governments quite simply breathtakingly shit display. If the EU go too far in 'perceived punishment', it will be counter productive

As Juncker himself said a while back, 'Brexit alone is punishment enough and we don't seek to add to that'. If they keep to that line, all will be fine.

If the UK divorce goes badly enough, the EU won't ever need to say the threat out loud. It will be obvious and implicit. They can obviously go to far, but they have a massive motivation to make this sting.

 

[SporeCrawler]

I dunno. I get what you're saying, but the last bit of the message...

So Brexit happens. The UK gets destroyed. Years later, another country in the EU comes to have legitimate very real, very serious concerns about being an EU Member. They want to leave, but the Council get to say "You oppose us, we will crush you like we crushed the UK"?

And many have stated, the EU just need to stay the course and be visible to be firm but fair. Let the UK shoot themselves in the foot with our Governments quite simply breathtakingly shit display. If the EU go too far in 'perceived punishment', it will be counter productive

As Juncker himself said a while back, 'Brexit alone is punishment enough and we don't seek to add to that'. If they keep to that line, all will be fine.

think about the opposite scenario. EU pays UK millions for leaving and even allows them entry to the single market and grants them passporting rights,.. why would anyone want to stay in the EU?

 

[Tacitus_]

think about the opposite scenario. EU pays UK millions for leaving and even allows them entry to the single market and grants them passporting rights,.. why would anyone want to stay in the EU?

When did we go from "crushing the UK" to "licking their boots"? EU isn't going to tank the UK intentionally, but they're not going to bow down before UKs threats, as anything the UK can do will only hurt themselves more.

 

[liquidtmd]

think about the opposite scenario. EU pays UK millions for leaving and even allows them entry to the single market and grants them passporting rights,.. why would anyone want to stay in the EU?

Oh absolutely. I thought I'd been clear, there should be no special concessions and any previously enjoyed benefits should be paid for

I was just replying to the 'EU have a vested interest in the UK crashing' comment.

There can be a balance and middle ground with fucking us over and kissing our boots

 

[PdotMichael]

Actually, the EU has a bit if a vested interest in the UK crashing. Such a crash would obviously hurt the EU short term, but it's long term existence relies on making an example of the UK. The message has to be: If you leave the EU, you get fucked.

EU doesn't have an interest in crashing Norway, Switzerland and other non EU countries, but all countries have a good and deep political and economical relationship with the EU.

It's just the UK which are just plain idiots.

 

[Showaddy]

Eh? Everyone in the EU knows Britain will be getting a rebate on their EU assets. Boris is just throwing a bit of spin in here for political points.

 

[SporeCrawler]

When did we go from "crushing the UK" to "licking their boots"? EU isn't going to tank the UK intentionally, but they're not going to bow down before UKs threats, as anything the UK can do will only hurt themselves more.

NO deal means that companies will have to pay a lot of tariff for any good comming or going out of UK to EU. That alone will hurt UK economy hard

 

[Linkstrikesback]

NO deal means that companies will have to pay a lot of tariff for any good comming or going out of UK to EU. That alone will hurt UK economy hard

Everything about brexit is going to hurt the UK economy hard. They'll just blame the EU when it does.

 

[PdotMichael]

If you leave an union which was the best thing that could happen to your country, everything past that doesn't end too well for you.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Everything about brexit is going to hurt the UK economy hard. They'll just blame the EU when it does.

Okay and then? Just blame the others ad infinitum until the country goes to shit?

 

[PdotMichael]

Okay and then? Just blame the others ad infinitum until the country goes to shit?

Yes.

 

[Tacitus_]

NO deal means that companies will have to pay a lot of tariff for any good comming or going out of UK to EU. That alone will hurt UK economy hard

Yes? EU wants to have a deal to not hurt the economy too badly. But they won't budge on the four freedoms.

 

[plagiarize]

In search of a better analogy...

This is arguably more like investing in a company and then wanting out before you've made a full return on your investment. You don't get to ask for your investment back when you are the one who wants to withdraw.

Especially when you want to withdraw because you think you could have made more money starting a company by yourself.

 

[Aureon]

Okay and then? Just blame the others ad infinitum until the country goes to shit?

You are assuming the current crop of UK politicians in power puts the welfare of their country over their re-election chances.
This is not the case.

In search of a better analogy...

This is arguably more like investing in a company and then wanting out before you've made a full return on your investment. You don't get to ask for your investment back when you are the one who wants to withdraw.

Especially when you want to withdraw because you think you could have made more money starting a company by yourself.

Especially if it's a partnership to which you pledged your work.
The only reason UK isn't being punished to shreds is because there's no such thing as rule of law among sovereigns.

 

[spekkeh]

I have it on good authority pigs could fly.

Though I don't remember whose authority. Might also have been Boris Johnson.

 

[liquidtmd]

 

[gutter_trash]

Force push

 

[CyclopsRock]

Yes? EU wants to have a deal to not hurt the economy too badly. But they won't budge on the four freedoms.

Unless you're Canada. Or South Korea. Or Mexico. Ok, those aren't full on free trade agreements but very nearly, but apply to more than none and less than four of the "four freedoms" so clearly they aren't that unshakeable.

 

[nubbe]

EU doesn't have an interest in crashing Norway, Switzerland and other non EU countries, but all countries have a good and deep political and economical relationship with the EU.

It's just the UK which are just plain idiots.

having an arrogant member leave the union and having trade partners are two different things.
the UK has benefited greatly from the science and finance infrastructure the EU has provided with the single market since english is an international language.

it's now time to move that infrastructure ireland or scotland.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Okay and then? Just blame the others ad infinitum until the country goes to shit?

If I was asked to describe what the gameplan of the current people in power was in a single sentence, yes, those are almost exactly the words I would use.

 

[PdotMichael]

having an arrogant member leave the union and having trade partners are two different things.
the UK has benefited greatly from the science and finance infrastructure the EU has provided with the single market since english is an international language.

it's now time to move that infrastructure ireland or scotland.

There is still no reason why the EU should punish the UK, there is just no reason to compromise on their fundamentals and the four freedoms for the UK.

 

[Tacitus_]

Unless you're Canada. Or South Korea. Or Mexico. Ok, those aren't full on free trade agreements but very nearly, but apply to more than none and less than four of the "four freedoms" so clearly they aren't that unshakeable.

I'm sure they could negotiate a FTA, but it's not the same as being in the single market, as you noted yourself. Besides, it would take far longer than the two years allocated for the exit negotiations.

 

[Aureon]

We've reached a point where the Foreign Minister of the United Kingdom (and the President of the United States) are not credible.
I'm truly astonished by that.

There is still no reason why the EU should punish the UK, there is just no reason to compromise on their fundamentals and the four freedoms for the UK.

The EU may (reasonably) want the finance market hub for europe stocks and bonds to be inside it's borders.
UK doesn't automatically have Euro clearing rights. Once they're out of the EU, they're gonna have to bargain for those.

It's not about punishment. It's about going from cooperators to competitors.

Unless you're Canada. Or South Korea. Or Mexico. Ok, those aren't full on free trade agreements but very nearly, but apply to more than none and less than four of the "four freedoms" so clearly they aren't that unshakeable.

Intra-EU trade relations are much easier and deeper than trade deals with Canada.

 

[The Hamburglar]

Nope. This is actually pretty capitalist. It's a transaction where both sides have obvious interests, but where one side holds all of the leverage.

so fascism then. didn't realise european countries were in the habit of trying to fuck each over again. please read your own original post I quoted because you sound ridiculous and childish.

Force push

this is amazing.

 

[TDLink]

This is the European version of Mexico is going to pay for the wall

 

[oti]

This is the European version of Mexico is going to pay for the wall

Well, yes and no. Their posturing about not paying is nonsense but they could just ignore the EU and not pay their debt. The EU can't force the UK to pay. It's not as if Merkel and Macron will break into the Queen's bedroom at night and steal her jewels.

Question then is how on earth they expect anyone to trust them ever again.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Unless you're Canada. Or South Korea. Or Mexico. Ok, those aren't full on free trade agreements but very nearly, but apply to more than none and less than four of the "four freedoms" so clearly they aren't that unshakeable.

You just made his point for him. A FTA is nothing like the single market with zero trade barriers. Don't know how you can even defend this government's approach to be honest.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Well, yes and no. Their posturing about not paying is nonsense but they could just ignore the EU and not pay their debt. The EU can't force the UK to pay. It's not as if Merkel and Macron will break into the Queen's bedroom at night and steal her jewels.

Question then is how on earth they expect anyone to trust them ever again.

Not paying owed money. If only there was an international consequence for such an action...

 

[oti]

Not paying owed money. If only there was an international consequence for such an action...

The markets will react. There's no question about that. It will make everything worse for the UK. But there's no law that the EU could enforce here I believe.

 

[Dehnus]

He's not wrong that the UK has assets in the EU, and we should expect some money for them. It's everything from returns from loans and property, to artworks and even the wine collection. Here's a handy chart from the FT showing how much they'd be worth.



It shouldn't take much to realise the issue there, I hope.

"British eurocrats" yup, not at all subjective nor defaming or demonizing the people that work for the EU that are of British descent. So nice of them.

 

[Dehnus]

The markets will react. There's no question about that. It will make everything worse for the UK. But there's no law that the EU could enforce here I believe.

There is "Mister Dyson, take your Vacuum cleaners home. We'll take a clean and better quality Nilfisk instead".

Yes, I really love Nilfisk .

AKA with the UK not paying their bills and refusing to pay their loans, the EU could decide to just ban all UK products or even impose sanctions.

 

[The Hamburglar]

The markets will react. There's no question about that. It will make everything worse for the UK. But there's no law that the EU could enforce here I believe.

I honestly don't think it will affect the markets much.

yes i'm sure a dog pile on will prove me wrong, but that's my personal opinion.

Why? because how many times has the UK faulted on loans or refused to pay something? None that I can think of.

Many businesses, banks etc might just see it as well they did vote to leave (if the 50 to 100 billion that is being quoted is to believe) and the sum being asked to pay to leave is ridiculous. I just can't see the 'markets' reacting like this "oh no the UK refused to pay this huge fee, we can't possibly do reasonable business with them"

It comes across as wishful thinking of people who aren't happy about the exit in the UK and some last ditch hope to cling onto, to stay in the EU and europeans to have this must punish UK attitude.

 

[sixteen-bit]

ah , i expected boris the band

 

[daviyoung]

Many businesses, banks etc might just see it as well they did vote to leave (if the 50 to 100 billion that is being quoted is to believe) and the sum being asked to pay to leave is ridiculous. I just can't see the 'markets' reacting like this "oh no the UK refused to pay this huge fee, we can't possibly do reasonable business with them".

Agreed, businesses will look after their own interests and make sure their contracts with the UK are water tight (which they should be doing anyway) but there's no reason why they won't use it as leverage in negotiations if they are expecting to get money from the government.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'm sure they could negotiate a FTA, but it's not the same as being in the single market, as you noted yourself. Besides, it would take far longer than the two years allocated for the exit negotiations.

You just made his point for him. A FTA is nothing like the single market with zero trade barriers. Don't know how you can even defend this government's approach to be honest.

They're not the same, but the main manner in which they differ is that they only apply to certain things - which is basically what the four freedoms is all about. Capital, goods, services and people. FTA typically only relate to goods and sometimes also services but within that section it's not that different to being within the single market. Outside of that - people, capital - it's very different. This is why I say the idea that the four freedoms are some unshakeable concept is a bit daft, because clearly you can have one without the other.

Re: negotiation time, it sure would take longer than 2 years. That said, one would imagine that sans any artificial barriers, it shouldn't take as long as those other countries for one fairly obvious reason. The same argument was kicked around when people were talking about a potentially independent Scotland negotiating entry into the EU, namely that we wouldn't have to find a compromise about food standards or any other regulations relating to trade owing to the fact that, as a member of the EU now, we already abide by them all. The same argument is deployed in favour of the UK's receipt of financial passporting, namely that we already conduct our financial services under their guidelines because right now they're our guidelines too.

And Phalanx, who's defending our government's approach? All I'm saying is that people point to the four freedoms as though it's a physical fact like the speed of light, when in reality it's no more or less negotiable than anything else. Obviously the EU needs to publicly say that it's all jolly important and you can't possibly allow a country to sell cars with zero tariff if they aren't also going to open their borders, but surely we all know it's bollocks, no?