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BotW progression system actively hinder a lot of its good parts
- Thread starter G.ZZZ
- Start date
After finally beating the game clocking at 166 hours and 30 minutes, I kind of feel the same, but at the same time the game still made the exploration challenging enough and most of all rewarding. Although after like 50 hours you could see how the game is actually structured, meaning there really wasn't any surprises left in terms of seeing totally new game mechanics so you just wanted to actually see the whole world and see every location just for the heck of it.
It's really difficult to create a world where you can freely explore every area whenever you want and still be challenged, but I still have to say that BotW did it really well. Although at first the world looks a bit empty, there actually is something to be found in almost every inch of the world, some bigger things, some minor things but nevertheless it's something. And the progressive enemy upgrades work well in this game, until like you said the actually makes Link "too" powerful. But that's pretty much the way every game is made, you start as a weakling, you end up being an unbeatable monster.
Nintendo can improve the game in a future Zelda for sure, but this game is still something else, no other company has been able to do bfefore.
It's really difficult to create a world where you can freely explore every area whenever you want and still be challenged, but I still have to say that BotW did it really well. Although at first the world looks a bit empty, there actually is something to be found in almost every inch of the world, some bigger things, some minor things but nevertheless it's something. And the progressive enemy upgrades work well in this game, until like you said the actually makes Link "too" powerful. But that's pretty much the way every game is made, you start as a weakling, you end up being an unbeatable monster.
Nintendo can improve the game in a future Zelda for sure, but this game is still something else, no other company has been able to do bfefore.
Night Angel
Member
I think the game mechanics held it back rather than the progression. The following is my opinion, obviously.
The weapon durability system destroyed this game for me. The fact that I'd rather run past most encounters (with one of the 6 enemy types in the game) so I don't damage my "good" weapons sucked (even if it wasn't necessary, that's how people think). It was especially annoying at the start, but it consistently altered the way I played the entire time (40+ hours), and never in a fun way.
The stamina system sucked in the early game. It made moving around the world a chore, and trading hearts for stamina is not an attractive offer at the start when lots of enemies can one-shot you. Once you get more shrines and the climber set this is less annoying, but damn did it suck for 10+ hours.
The combat itself was nothing special, but the lack of enemy variety was horrible for my enjoyment of the game. The lack of worthwhile reasons to kill most enemies (combined with the weapon durability system) made me want to skip 90+% of encounters.
Progression didn't hurt the game for me. You got more weapon slots so you could hoard more "good" weapons to save for whenever you ran into something worth fighting. It made the stamina issue less painful. Progressing made combat even more of a joke, but since it already kinda sucked I didn't mind.
Nothing can fix the rain. Rain sucks. There's no warning, it happens every few minutes, and you have to sit like an asshole until it stops (unless you were climbing, in which case enjoy death you moron. What were you thinking, trying to climb something?).
The weapon durability system destroyed this game for me. The fact that I'd rather run past most encounters (with one of the 6 enemy types in the game) so I don't damage my "good" weapons sucked (even if it wasn't necessary, that's how people think). It was especially annoying at the start, but it consistently altered the way I played the entire time (40+ hours), and never in a fun way.
The stamina system sucked in the early game. It made moving around the world a chore, and trading hearts for stamina is not an attractive offer at the start when lots of enemies can one-shot you. Once you get more shrines and the climber set this is less annoying, but damn did it suck for 10+ hours.
The combat itself was nothing special, but the lack of enemy variety was horrible for my enjoyment of the game. The lack of worthwhile reasons to kill most enemies (combined with the weapon durability system) made me want to skip 90+% of encounters.
Progression didn't hurt the game for me. You got more weapon slots so you could hoard more "good" weapons to save for whenever you ran into something worth fighting. It made the stamina issue less painful. Progressing made combat even more of a joke, but since it already kinda sucked I didn't mind.
Nothing can fix the rain. Rain sucks. There's no warning, it happens every few minutes, and you have to sit like an asshole until it stops (unless you were climbing, in which case enjoy death you moron. What were you thinking, trying to climb something?).
NintendosBooger
Member
Remember, Link is weak in the beginning because he doesn't remember anything. Not his lessons, his swordsmanship, nothing. As his memory returns, the legend and champion of Hyrule is reborn so of course he's going to develop into an overpowered character. Only Zelda and Gannon are his match.
Don't bother to comment on the rest of your points, but what made the rain so bad for you? It didn't bother me one bit, except when trying to climb,but even then with the climber set, it didn't pose much of a bother. And it definately doesn't rain every few minutes. Some days were completely without rain. I think some areas were more keen to be rainy though. But in what way did it stop you from moving? I don't get it.
Muffdraul
Member
If you were really never hindered by the rain and being prevented from what you were intending to do for long periods of time because of ridiculously frequent rain, then you had some damn good luck. It happened to me a bunch of times. Thankfully not quite often enough to ruin the game.
All very good points op. Inventory spots for food should have been far more limiting no question. Armor and enemy HP also need reworks. I'll throw in another change I'd like to see: Discovery needs to consist of more than just shrines. The first 30-40 hours of this game were some of the best Ive ever played in a game. But the problems listed in the OP plus the sense of discovery being completely destroyed after realizing everything was a shrine totally made the back half seem tedious in comparison to the first half.
For me, thats sort of exciting because that means a game like BoTW can get even better and I really fucking loved BoTW.
For me, thats sort of exciting because that means a game like BoTW can get even better and I really fucking loved BoTW.
Can you give some examples of things you weren't able to do, now I'm really interested in hearing them. Honestly the last side quest I did before beating the game, I was trying to complete and had to wait a while before the NPC got out so that I could find him. I was searching him during the rain (in Hateno village) as I couldn't remember where he lived, but that's really the only time when rain actually slowed me down when doing something during all those 166 hours I played.
Rain didn't affect my exploration of the world, I could still climb most of the places I needed. It even helped attacing some enemy camps.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
This problem has plagued pretty much every single Zelda game. You would think Nintendo would have learned by now.
Muffdraul
Member
I don't remember anything more specific than trying to climb somewhere high and steep and not being able to until the rain stopped. I don't get how you can deny rain prevents you from reaching certain areas. No matter well you time your jump-ups, you're gonna run out of stamina at some point. It takes a lot of time and effort to build up your stamina gauge to the point where you can start to shrug this shit off.
I think there's some interesting points in the OP but ultimately it's down to the player how much food you have or use. While I agree that the game is devilishly hard at the start when things are a lot scarce, after completing the dungeons and exploring the world before going to the final area im glad things are a lot easier as it may become a bit of a chore exploring each area.
The new gold enemies in hard mode is only going to make things worse i feel like.
The start of the game will be great as always but i cant imagine wasting my time with enemies that have MORE HP and can regen HP. Not that it matters really cause i imagine hearty foods are still as OP as ever.
The start of the game will be great as always but i cant imagine wasting my time with enemies that have MORE HP and can regen HP. Not that it matters really cause i imagine hearty foods are still as OP as ever.
I really ramped up my staming before hearts at the beginning of the game, and since there was like million things to explore at the beginning, climbing didn't even come into consideration until a little later. And then I had the boosted climber's kit which made all the difference and I actually started to care about going literally everywhere. When it's raining, of course it slows it down, but finding a little less steep hills isn't too bad. When the angle is right, you can actually walk up the hill even if you normally climb it, so you can recover your stamina a bit by bit by just force walking the wall instead of climbing. Also with the boosted climber's kit, even during rain you can get pretty high up walls when you climb about 5 animated frames by Link, then jump. You slide down a bit, but you gain a lot of height still with those 5 animations and every jump.
Yep, quit after 12 hours due to finding the systems way too broken which put a huge damper on any real satisfaction or excitement the exploration provides.
Have had hopes the DLC hard mode would make major adjustments and held off playing until it launched, but not feeling Master Mode will actually do anything to fix the issues properly. :/
Have had hopes the DLC hard mode would make major adjustments and held off playing until it launched, but not feeling Master Mode will actually do anything to fix the issues properly. :/
Muffdraul
Member
So, basically your solution was to not even bother trying to climb very high extremely sheer cliff faces until Link was essentially Spider-man. That works too, sure.
D.Lo
Member
This is absolutely amazing.
"It was one of the best games I have ever played for 100 hours but those 100 hours of joy all went to waste as the following 260 hours made them all go away and mean nothing!"
Right. Like, what kind of hero would get killed by a measly pack of moblins?
No, having like 1 full meter of stamina is still nothing. Just have couple of stamina potions if things go wrong, find good places to climb and use the game mechanics to your advantage andyou're set even during rain.
kunonabi
Member
I'm 100%ing every major Wii U game which means doing a lot of things I normally wouldn't. Under normal circumstances I would have done a more basic run of doing all the shrines, getting all the memories, and fixing all the beasts.
However, even I had done that it still wouldn't have give some super positive impression of the game since I thought the shrines, beasts, Ganon, and the ending were all absolute rubbish anyway.
Muffdraul
Member
I'm really happy for you that rain never hampered your experience with the game. But you need to accept that it did for a lot of people. You advice is sound except "find good places to climb." Some places are simply not accessible unless you undertake a long, steep climb that can easily outstrip whatever stamina gauge and potions you happen to have on hand at that moment.
Hollywood Hitman
Gold Member
Yep, first 30 or 40 hours are excellent...after that the game takes a nose dive in many areas
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Even worse: i put in 10 times the normal hours required for a single game and it was great and i endured it for another 26 times required for a single game and it really removed all enjoyment out of it.
Because it sucked.
Like, there's no middle ground. No words that can describe things besides goat or suck. I can't fathom doing so much for something i hate. Or something i can't stand. Or something that is decent. How many people put 360 hours into any game? Did he put 100 hours into Superman 64?
Or, 300 hours means you liked it some. I would hate to see how much time he put into a game he liked. 360 hours since March 2017. I'm going to have an aneurysm thinking about this.
Or he's just extra. I'll go with that one. Most Zelda vocal fans on forums are extra.
Tarextherex
Banned
No? Other Zeldas aren't RPGs, the feeling of progression is from getting new items/discovering new mechanics/tackling more complicated scenarios. The combat isn't particularly challenging but even that has a clear evolution, you go from keeses to iron knuckles. The only other Zelda that had a remotely similar flaw in terms of progression was ALBW. Considering they were dabbling on open world progression for less than 5 years, they didn't have that much time to "learn".
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Yes?
For the first few hours or so of pretty much any Zelda game when you have 3 hearts you always have to be careful in combat.
Once you get like a dozen more hearts the challenge goes completely out the window and the combat becomes ridiculously easy.