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Boxing Discussion

S

Spider-Man

Member
El Topo said:
Wilder won? Huh. Well, that should shut up a lot of his critics.
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Nothing changes after this fight except his KO record, once he gets punched hard by any fighter with decent power he'll be on the floor. He's had one of the best carefully manufactured careers in a long time, but since he's american both golden boy and haymon know he's a money maker until he gets knocked out cold. The same thing that happened with Seth Mitchell will happen to him soon. Most of boxing has been rigged the past 20 years and it's a shame.

There won't be a good true american undisputed heavyweight champion for a long time that earned it.
 
E

El Topo

Member
Spider-Man said:
Nothing changes after this fight except his KO record, once he gets punched hard by any fighter with decent power he'll be on the floor. He's had one of the best carefully manufactured careers in a long time, but since he's american both golden boy and haymon know he's a money maker until he gets knocked out cold. The same thing that happened with Seth Mitchell will happen to him soon. Most of boxing has been rigged the past 20 years and it's a shame.

There won't be a good true american undisputed heavyweight champion for a long time that earned it.
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He fought in a way that suited him, he went the distance, his stamina was better than expected and ultimately he convincingly beat one of the better heavyweight fighters out there. I don't think comparisons to Seth Mitchell are appropriate anymore. As for his weak chin, we'll know once he gets knocked out, but even then as Wlad has shown, you can get quite far even without the best chin. It's obviously too early to really rate him, he'll have to fight more (good) opposition, but it's a nice start. There was no way he could disprove every criticism in one fight.

I still think he might just be another David Price, but we'll see. Hopefully he'll fight Fury next.
 
A

abuC

Member
Spider-Man said:
Nothing changes after this fight except his KO record, once he gets punched hard by any fighter with decent power he'll be on the floor. He's had one of the best carefully manufactured careers in a long time, but since he's american both golden boy and haymon know he's a money maker until he gets knocked out cold. The same thing that happened with Seth Mitchell will happen to him soon. Most of boxing has been rigged the past 20 years and it's a shame.

There won't be a good true american undisputed heavyweight champion for a long time that earned it.
Click to expand...

Seth Mitchell was only 6'2" and he got into boxing even later than Wilder, the fact he's so tall is going to protect him until he fights someone around his own size. As long as he uses the jab and keeps people away from his chin he could have a decent little run here.

Bermane was a good opponent with some decent power, I'm as shocked as anyone that Deontay won the way he did.
 
J

jimbor

Banned
Wilder looked good. I'm interested to see where he goes now. He can't go back to fighting cab drivers, would be nice to see him in with Fury, Helenius, Povetkin, Haye etc.

No more treading water.
 
X

x Power Pad Death Stomp x

Member
Seth Mitchell had a better resume than Wilder up until last night. Wilder had his best fight as a pro. Still don't think he's all that, but I thought Bermen would starch him so I have to munch my crow and wait till next time.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
jimbor said:
Wilder looked good. I'm interested to see where he goes now. He can't go back to fighting cab drivers, would be nice to see him in with Fury, Helenius, Povetkin, Haye etc.

No more treading water.
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Totally. Or even a tier below that.

As I said elsewhere, given each of their resumes, Saturday night's fight would have been a Shobox fight if it had been in any other division.

I know they are no going to try to market Wilder as a rival for Wlad, but Stiverne is his only victory against anyone in the top 50 of the division (maybe the top 100). Wilder is still young for the division at 29. I'll be happy if he spends the next year or two fighting guys in the top 15. Or even top 30. I would love to see him in with Tony Thompson. Or Tarver. Or Steve Cunningham.

I personally think that he'll quickly distinguish himself as above that level if he does go that route, but I think he would benefit from seasoning and experience that those fights would bring.
 
X

x Power Pad Death Stomp x

Member
Tarver would be a good "voluntary" defense. Shannon Briggs is making a lot of social media noise and they could do good business in the Barclays Center with that fight. They could fill a good size stadium overseas vs Fury. Plenty of fights before feeding him to Wlad.
 
T

Turin

Banned
Either way. Deontay making exciting defenses of his belt on NBC is good for boxing.

No need to rush the Klitschko fight. Wladimir can lick his chops while his meal cooks for him. That fight could be really big if they give it time.
 
J

jimbor

Banned
HeebieJeebies said:
Froch sounds like he's ready to retire which is a shame.
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Not really a shame. He peaked relatively late and is the clear number two in his division. He can hang around too long and keep on taking on the young guns but he could come unstuck, as he nearly did with Groves.

If he can't get that elusive Vegas fight, hanging them up and enjoying his money and family is the sensible thing to do.
 
A

abuC

Member
jimbor said:
Not really a shame. He peaked relatively late and is the clear number two in his division. He can hang around too long and keep on taking on the young guns but he could come unstuck, as he nearly did with Groves.

If he can't get that elusive Vegas fight, hanging them up and enjoying his money and family is the sensible thing to do.
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It's a shame since he's an entertaining fighter.
 
A

abuC

Member
MVP said:
I said Wlad would undoubtedly beat Ali. I thought this was common knowledge to anyone who knows boxing and isn't enamored by the legend of Ali.
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Speed kills and Wlad has never seen speed or movement from a heavyweight like Ali, you're overrating the size difference like George Foreman wasn't massive or Ali isn't 6'3".

Wlad isn't going to outbox Ali, sorry if you think he can, he struggled with the movement of Williamson and could only land 134 punches against flat footed David Haye, yet I'm supposed to believe he'd be able to land on a guy who was possibly the fastest heavyweight ever and conditioned to go 15?
 
M

MVP

Banned
abuC said:
Speed kills and Wlad has never seen speed or movement from a heavyweight like Ali, you're overrating the size difference like George Foreman wasn't massive or Ali isn't 6'3".

Wlad isn't going to outbox Ali, sorry if you think he can, he struggled with the movement of Williamson.
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It's not because of the size difference, it's because Ali fundamentally wasn't very polished. He couldn't handle Norton's jab, how would he handle Klitschko's nuclear bomb jab detonating on his face repeatedly? Ali dropped his hands too much, and despite what 3 second clips on Youtube and his soundbites make people believe, he wasn't that hard to hit.

He always threw his right hand out when he jabbed, so he'd get counter jabbed all night long, and most importantly, he loved to lean away from punches, so with Klitschko being a master at feinting the jab, let's just say it would't be a tough fight for him.

This isn't to say Ali isn't one of the greatest, it's more to say Klitschko is also one, and the fight favors Klitschko stylistically. Much more modern, polished, and disciplined (boring) fighter.
 
T

Turin

Banned
Against a prime Ali, I think Larry Holmes would have had the best chance. Holmes would have knocked out both Wlad and Lennox.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Could Tyson have theoretically cut to light heavy or cruiser weight when he was coming up? He was short but so damn thick. I always think that if Tyson came up today that is what would happen. No sane manager would steer him towards Heavyweight at 5'10 or however tall he was.
 
A

abuC

Member
MVP said:
It's not because of the size difference, it's because Ali fundamentally wasn't very polished. He couldn't handle Norton's jab, how would he handle Klitschko's nuclear bomb jab detonating on his face repeatedly? Ali dropped his hands too much, and despite what 3 second clips on Youtube and his soundbites make people believe, he wasn't that hard to hit.

He always threw his right hand out when he jabbed, so he'd get counter jabbed all night long, and most importantly, he loved to lean away from punches, so with Klitschko being a master at feinting the jab, let's just say it would't be a tough fight for him.

This isn't to say Ali isn't one of the greatest, it's more to say Klitschko is also one, and the fight favors Klitschko stylistically. Much more modern, polished, and disciplined (boring) fighter.
Click to expand...


Ali was not in his prime in 73, that's like me bringing up Brewster and Sanders in regards to Wlad.

We're talking about a prime Ali, who generally speaking was much harder to hit than the plodding punching bags Wlad has faced. Wlad did not do well vs the movement of Williamson, and struggled to land on Haye, who was quick enough to get in and out of trouble.

The speed is something Wlad has never dealt with, ever, prime Ali would be on his toes all night moving, firing from angles and getting in and out before Wlad can get off. I'd really be interested in seeing how Wlad deals with someone that is entirely too quick for him to clinch and lean on, how would he handle that.
 
A

abuC

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
Could Tyson have theoretically cut to light heavy or cruiser weight when he was coming up? He was short but so damn thick. I always think that if Tyson came up today that is what would happen. No sane manager would steer him towards Heavyweight at 5'10 or however tall he was.
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I think he'd still be a heavyweight today, things may have been different for him had he not left Rooney, once he stopped moving/slipping side to side he was done for.
 
M

MVP

Banned
abuC said:
Ali was not in his prime in 73, that's like me bringing up Brewster and Sanders in regards to Wlad.

We're talking about a prime Ali, who generally speaking was much harder to hit than the plodding punching bags Wlad has faced. Wlad did not do well vs the movement of Williamson, and struggled to land on Haye, who was quick enough to get in and out of trouble.

The speed is something Wlad has never dealt with, ever, prime Ali would be on his toes all night moving, firing from angles and getting in and out before Wlad can get off. I'd really be interested in seeing how Wlad deals with someone that is entirely too quick for him to clinch and lean on, how would he handle that.
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He'd handle it the same way he handled Haye. It was obvious he gassed against Brewster, and against Sanders I think it was the headbutt, but let's say he got caught one time. That's fine.

The problem with facing Klitschko and why he's so underrated is that he dominates his opposition so thoroughly, that the knocks against him have to be when he doesn't look perfect against an opponent. He "did not do well" vs Williamson, and he "struggled to land" on Haye. Yes, when an opponent is running all night long and jumping in and out, that happens. It has become an accomplishment to just not get obliterated by him in the ring, losing is never in the conversation.

Seriously, how many rounds has this dude lost in his career?
 
J

jimbor

Banned
MVP said:
He'd handle it the same way he handled Haye. It was obvious he gassed against Brewster, and against Sanders I think it was the headbutt, but let's say he got caught one time. That's fine.

The problem with facing Klitschko and why he's so underrated is that he dominates his opposition so thoroughly, that the knocks against him have to be when he doesn't look perfect against an opponent. He "did not do well" vs Williamson, and he "struggled to land" on Haye. Yes, when an opponent is running all night long and jumping in and out, that happens. It has become an accomplishment to just not get obliterated by him in the ring, losing is never in the conversation.

Seriously, how many rounds has this dude lost in his career?
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He's lost three times to shit opposition and has tasted the canvas against shitty fighters. To suggest that he'd easily beat Ali is a stretch.
 
M

MVP

Banned
jimbor said:
He's lost three times to shit opposition and has tasted the canvas against shitty fighters. To suggest that he'd easily beat Ali is a stretch.
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That wasn't his prime, that was when he was young and had a tendency to punch himself out.

It isn't really a stretch at all, I think it's pretty funny that there are even people out there who legitimately think Ali would stand a chance against Klitschko, when most long-time boxing fans and even experts see this as an easy fight for Klitschko. Ignore the name and nostalgia, watch Ali's COMPLETE fights, not cool animated gifs, and tell me that guy has a chance. I see that fight going down like Wlad's fight against Byrd, another elusive fighter who got schooled. Wlad vs. Holmes is another story, that would be much more interesting.
 
T

TuXx

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
not only do we get a rehashed May fight, but we also dont' get Cotto/Canelo which could have been fantastic. This is some shiiiiiiiiiit.
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I'm sooooo ready for Pac or May to retire already. It's bad enough that they've put the public through this nonsense over the years, but having their bullshit prevent other big fights from happening is where I draw the line.
 
J

jimbor

Banned
MVP said:
*extremely patronising post*
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How can I be viewing it through nostalgia when I wasn't there at the time?

I've watched Ali's entire career, not 'YouTube clips and gifs'.

Do I think that Wlad could beat Ali? Yes, it's possible. Do I think if it were to happen, it would be easy? No.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
Could Tyson have theoretically cut to light heavy or cruiser weight when he was coming up? He was short but so damn thick. I always think that if Tyson came up today that is what would happen. No sane manager would steer him towards Heavyweight at 5'10 or however tall he was.
Click to expand...

Turin747 said:
Tyson could have definitely gotten down to cruiserweight. 175 is pushing it though.
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Tyson was a solid 215-220 during his prime. He probably could have cut to the modern cruiserweight limit of 200 but not the 190 limit of his era. He was very much a solid heavyweight during that era.

Also, keep in mind that most heavyweights even today weight 210-230. People like Wlad, and before him Lennox Lewis, are/were anomalies. Even at 6'7", Deontay Wilder weighed in at 219 on Saturday night.


While we're on the tonight of weight, I just mention that 'prime' Ali weighed 205-210 and Wlad averages about 245.
 
A

abuC

Member
MVP said:
He'd handle it the same way he handled Haye. It was obvious he gassed against Brewster, and against Sanders I think it was the headbutt, but let's say he got caught one time. That's fine.

The problem with facing Klitschko and why he's so underrated is that he dominates his opposition so thoroughly, that the knocks against him have to be when he doesn't look perfect against an opponent. He "did not do well" vs Williamson, and he "struggled to land" on Haye. Yes, when an opponent is running all night long and jumping in and out, that happens. It has become an accomplishment to just not get obliterated by him in the ring, losing is never in the conversation.

Seriously, how many rounds has this dude lost in his career?
Click to expand...


Haye and Ali are not even remotely in the same class, Wlad "handled" him and was hurt on several occasions by Haye who for most of the night was afraid to let his hands go. Wlad wouldn't be able to clinch and lean on a prime Ali, the speed difference is massive and Wlad is a pretty quick big guy, it's just that Ali's movement was entirely too good.


You're going overboard with the hyperbole for Wlad, once you start saying things like "losing is never in the conversation" the counter question will always be....who has he faced?
 
A

abuC

Member
MVP said:
That wasn't his prime, that was when he was young and had a tendency to punch himself out.

It isn't really a stretch at all, I think it's pretty funny that there are even people out there who legitimately think Ali would stand a chance against Klitschko, when most long-time boxing fans and even experts see this as an easy fight for Klitschko. Ignore the name and nostalgia, watch Ali's COMPLETE fights, not cool animated gifs, and tell me that guy has a chance. I see that fight going down like Wlad's fight against Byrd, another elusive fighter who got schooled. Wlad vs. Holmes is another story, that would be much more interesting.
Click to expand...

You have a lot of excuses for Wlad getting put to sleep by below average fighters, it happened and his chin isn't any better now, he just protects it better.

Terrible comparison, Byrd was 36 when they fought, he's only 6'1 with a 74" reach, where as Ali is 6'3 with an 78" reach. Why not point out that when Byrd was younger he was able to beat Vitali, who I feel is honestly the better of the two brothers, his movement was too much for him. As for Ali, It has nothing to do with nostalgia, Ali is unlike anything in the heavyweight division right now - speed, length, IQ, chin, movement, he was on his toes for 15 rounds during his prime. He'd come at Wlad in angles and get out of trouble before Wlad could clinch and lean on him..

As for your point about all boxing "fans" knowing Wlad would win, seems like you couldn't be more wrong:

Ali stops Wladimir 395 45.61%
Ali by decision 198 22.86%
Wladimir stops Ali 146 16.86%
Waldimir by decision 91 10.51%
The fight could go either way 36 4.16%
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http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=392083
 
T

Turin

Banned
No one could deny that Ali had some things he needed to work on.

When someone asks me if Sugar Ray Robinson is really the best in history, I say he was probably the most talented but could have improved some things defensively. I'd basically say the same about Ali among the heavyweights.

Tom_Cody said:
Tyson was a solid 215-220 during his prime. He probably could have cut to the modern cruiserweight limit of 200 but not the 190 limit of his era. He was very much a solid heavyweight during that era.

Also, keep in mind that most heavyweights even today weight 210-230. People like Wlad, and before him Lennox Lewis, are/were anomalies. Even at 6'7", Deontay Wilder weighed in at 219 on Saturday night.
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Yeah. I was thinking of the 200 limit since the question at hand pertained to today. He was solid in his prime but could have obviously lost about 15 pounds without much trouble.
 
X

x Power Pad Death Stomp x

Member
Wlad isn't even the best heavy of his era, this all time stuff is nonsense.

Prime Evander Holyfield KO5 Wlad. Actually, Wlad watches the tape of Holy landing 19 vicious unanswered shots on Foreman and refuses to show up.
 
T

Turin

Banned
Evander's actually my favorite heavyweight so I'm inclined to agree. :D

I also think he'd beat Vitali and Lennox when at his best. But again, I'm possibly a bit biased.

I think Wlad's a better fighter than Vitali though. However, I'm not sure he'd beat him because of the chin aspect(which is probably blown out of proportion).
 
A

abuC

Member
Turin747 said:
Evander's actually my favorite heavyweight so I'm inclined to agree. :D

I also think he'd beat Vitali and Lennox when at his best. But again, I'm possibly a bit biased.

I think Wlad's a better fighter than Vitali though. However, I'm not sure he'd beat him because of the chin aspect(which is probably blown out of proportion).
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I like Vitali more, his style for a heavyweight was unusual and his chin is made out of iron.

I actually like and respect the Klitschkos, it's just ridiculous to me that someone thinks Wlad would beat Ali easily.
 
T

Turin

Banned
Yeah, the Klitschko's got away with a lot of flailing. Lennox did as well.

They're good, no doubt. But I've never been overly impressed with those guys.
 
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