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Brandon Sanderson - The Cosmere |OT| there's always another secret...
- Thread starter ExMachina
- Start date
Another long reddit update from Sanderson on Oathbringer:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight...thbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_5/
A good non-spoilery bit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight...thbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_5/
A good non-spoilery bit:
FUBAR McDangles
Member
Amazon just sent my Arcanum Unbounded. Pretty excited.
I finished reading Way of Kings just a few days ago.
I read him mostly right off reading Robert Jordan. And I fucking hated Jordan. Without hyperbole, it's seriously some of the worst writing I've ever encountered. I'm guessing there are fans of his in here, since I know Sanderson is a fan, so I'm sorry, but jesus, Wheel of Time was just so bad. But I mention it because it's very relevant to Way of Kings.
I actually first read the first half of WoK a few years ago. I thought it was meh, so I dropped it. More recently, I decided to attempt to read WoT, since it was a series of some historical importance if nothing else. After finally dropping it, I decided to pick up Sanderson's work again, just to see how his writing was to get a taste of what I would have gotten if I had stuck with it to his books.
We do not need Shallan's literal thoughts here. Something like "Shallan felt a sudden spike of shock. Her hand went to the pouch at her waist. Did Jasnah know? “He didn’t.”" would have been much more effective in my opinion. We could tell what Shallan was thinking just by the context and body language. We don't need her thoughts literally manifested here.
This right here is what makes it clear to me that Sanderson is a student of Jordan. Jordan would pull this shit ALL THE TIME. Every page, you'd get various unnecessary descriptions. But Sanderson only has a touch of that. This example is the only one that really stood out to me after over 500 pages. You could probably find more examples if you're really looking for it, but after Jordan, I was significantly more forgiving than I was the few years back. Still, overall, the book had that feel through it's pages.
But the fact is that I think this is the only major complaint I have about the book. I have more minor ones, but they are minor. Once you get passed the prose, if this is a problem for you at all(and for the record, it wasn't that big a deal to me, just the biggest problem I found), Way of Kings is a genuinely well put together narrative that somehow manages not to overstay it's welcome even with it's ridiculous length. It's original with a pretty unique premise, and is going for that epic fantasy vibe in a cool way. There is a lot of depth to all 3 major narratives going on, and they interweave with each other in the right places.
I come out of Way of Kings feeling I should love it a lot more than I do. It's a very well crafted work and I respect it on a lot of levels, I haven't been able to get as immersed in it as I'd like. If the second book manages to fix that, I might end up loving it. But as it stands, the book is merely very good for me, rather than amazing.
I read him mostly right off reading Robert Jordan. And I fucking hated Jordan. Without hyperbole, it's seriously some of the worst writing I've ever encountered. I'm guessing there are fans of his in here, since I know Sanderson is a fan, so I'm sorry, but jesus, Wheel of Time was just so bad. But I mention it because it's very relevant to Way of Kings.
I actually first read the first half of WoK a few years ago. I thought it was meh, so I dropped it. More recently, I decided to attempt to read WoT, since it was a series of some historical importance if nothing else. After finally dropping it, I decided to pick up Sanderson's work again, just to see how his writing was to get a taste of what I would have gotten if I had stuck with it to his books.
We do not need Shallan's literal thoughts here. Something like "Shallan felt a sudden spike of shock. Her hand went to the pouch at her waist. Did Jasnah know? “He didn’t.”" would have been much more effective in my opinion. We could tell what Shallan was thinking just by the context and body language. We don't need her thoughts literally manifested here.
This right here is what makes it clear to me that Sanderson is a student of Jordan. Jordan would pull this shit ALL THE TIME. Every page, you'd get various unnecessary descriptions. But Sanderson only has a touch of that. This example is the only one that really stood out to me after over 500 pages. You could probably find more examples if you're really looking for it, but after Jordan, I was significantly more forgiving than I was the few years back. Still, overall, the book had that feel through it's pages.
But the fact is that I think this is the only major complaint I have about the book. I have more minor ones, but they are minor. Once you get passed the prose, if this is a problem for you at all(and for the record, it wasn't that big a deal to me, just the biggest problem I found), Way of Kings is a genuinely well put together narrative that somehow manages not to overstay it's welcome even with it's ridiculous length. It's original with a pretty unique premise, and is going for that epic fantasy vibe in a cool way. There is a lot of depth to all 3 major narratives going on, and they interweave with each other in the right places.
I come out of Way of Kings feeling I should love it a lot more than I do. It's a very well crafted work and I respect it on a lot of levels, I haven't been able to get as immersed in it as I'd like. If the second book manages to fix that, I might end up loving it. But as it stands, the book is merely very good for me, rather than amazing.
Jest Chillin
Member
Got my order in for the physical in time for release day delivery and jumped on the 3 buck kindle deal as well.
Gonna read the kindle version and after perusing the physical version. Just display it.
Edit: This is for AU btw.
Gonna read the kindle version and after perusing the physical version. Just display it.
Edit: This is for AU btw.
Poodlestrike
Banned
The unnecessary description thing never really goes away. It's distressing, because Sanderson's actually quite good at painting the picture without spelling it out, but he seems absolutely COMPELLED to spell it out anyway. Radiance is a bit better than WoK in that respect, though.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Jordan does this crap ALL THE FREAKING TIME THOUGH, whether it's to describe clothes or stupid gender politics or something we've heard 9999999 times already. Brandon Sanderson only does it when it feels necessary to the story or character.
In that example you gave, that tiny bit of extra inner dialogue actually tells us something significant about Shallan. She's super nervous, and prone to over imaging things, but she also has a very analytical mind. And so she's telling herself to slow down and think things through.
True, we probably could have figured this out without that one sentencebut these little extra bits add up over time.
Wowfunhappy
Member
I would start with Mistborn. Not sure what the reviewers mean about the dialogue (I've never heard that criticism before).
The writing in all of Sanderson's books is pretty banal, with the possible exception of The Stormlight Archive. He makes up for it in characters, plot, worldbuilding etc.
Well, I already knew that. That's been her entire character arc, explicitely stated several times by Jasnah that she's analytic, yet still nervous. So it doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know.
But regardless, the point is that it may have caused me to drop the book a few years back, but after passing through the horror that is Jordan's writing, it's more than tolerable.
I can't overstate how fucking awful WoT was, jesus christ, but I find it extremely fascinating that Sanderson is the result of intense study of Jordan's craft. Other works as well, obviously, but he makes a big point about being a WoT fan and how it influenced him. It's not hte first time I've seen a writer draw positive influences over something I feel is just terrible, but it always amazes me when it happens.
Incandenza
Banned
His prose has been getting better with each book IMO. Elantris and The Final Empire are pretty rough in that regard, and I found most of the humor in Warbreaker really lame. But his recent stuff I have no issue with. Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning even got some good chuckles out of me.
MrOogieBoogie
BioShock Infinite is like playing some homeless guy's vivid imagination
I was curious to know what your favorite sci-fi/fantasy books are?
I don't think prose is ever really fantasy (or scifi) writers' strength. I mean, it seems to be me that these genres attract story-tellers more so than "artists" (or at least, artists focus on other things than the art of writing). Sure, there are supposedly exceptions but if so, i haven't read those.
Admittedly I usually don't pay attention to it unless it is very flawed, like excess use of said bookisms (should be rare at best), info dumps (especially if they're given by an universal narrator) or text that doesn't paint a scene properly (like, i have no idea where something is happening, imagining characters in a white room isn't exactly immersive).
Dialogue stuff like what Sanderson supposedly does i tend to filter out, it doesn't bother me.
I can't recall how Jordan wrote dialogue (never was an issue for me) but i know i loved his descriptions of places and scenes, they were usually vivid and strong.
Unfortunately Sanderson doesn't quite match that usually. At his best, sure, but often his writing is, as someone said, quite banal.
Admittedly I usually don't pay attention to it unless it is very flawed, like excess use of said bookisms (should be rare at best), info dumps (especially if they're given by an universal narrator) or text that doesn't paint a scene properly (like, i have no idea where something is happening, imagining characters in a white room isn't exactly immersive).
Dialogue stuff like what Sanderson supposedly does i tend to filter out, it doesn't bother me.
I can't recall how Jordan wrote dialogue (never was an issue for me) but i know i loved his descriptions of places and scenes, they were usually vivid and strong.
Unfortunately Sanderson doesn't quite match that usually. At his best, sure, but often his writing is, as someone said, quite banal.
I don't disagree that most fantasy writers fall on the story telling side, and as a fantasy fan I obviously care more about the story being told then the art behind it. Still, have you ever read Guy Gavriel Kay or Ursula K. Le Guin? They are definitely counter points.
Wowfunhappy
Member
As much as I'm not a fan of Tolkien, I would definitely consider him a counter example. Lots and lots of beautiful prose and description. (I just wish the plot was a bit more interesting...)
Robert Jordan's descriptions are great, there's just far too many of them.
Semi-related story, I'm actually (trying) to get through Wheel of Time right now. Not my first time attempting this, but I have a strategy this time. Turns out a bunch of abridged versions were made of the middle WoT, back when abridged audiobooks were a thing, and I've managed to track them down.
Plan is to read 1, 2, 3, and 4, listen to abridged 5 and 6 but switch to unabridged towards the end, and then listen to the rest abridged up until Knife of Dreams (where the abridged versions stop).
Nothing from Kay, i think. Heard the name but that's all.
I have read most of Earthsea series though i wasn't a big fan. Never got through the fourth part (collection book with four books). That said, i can barely recall anything from the book... i suppose it is closer to a decade since i read it.
I never regarded Tolkien's prose as great or terribly interesting in itself. But again, it has been a long time since i read Lord of the Rings. He had a habit of digressing to history and other things... in exposition by narrator. If i recall correctly. Always bothered me. You're right about his descriptions though, they were pretty good.
Tolkien certainly was superb world-builder, with carefully considered history and cultures, with languages playing a big role. And he didn't ignore such things as logistics either (really, that's one thing that's a bane of fantasy and scifi authors): Mordor's southern parts were very fertile, providing ample food supply for Sauron's armies.
Can't recall exactly but i think books 5 and 6 were pretty good. Maybe even the best ones. EDIT Yup, i think i remembered right. They were good. I at least wouldn't listen/read abridged versions of them... but then i dislike the whole concept of abridging a book at all for any reason.
Knife of Dreams is one were the quality got considerably better... at least compared to Crossroads of Twilight which is generally regarded as the weakest one in the entire series.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Stop what you're doing and go read Discworld. Use this: http://www.lspace.org/books/reading-order-guides/the-discworld-reading-order-guide-20.jpg , pick a series (I recommend the Night Watch or Death books), and thank me later.
I have read some Discworld novels... long ago. Funny, but not my thing really. I tend to prefer more... Well. Hard to think a proper description. I was going to write "more serious works" but if i recall correctly, Discworld books are serious. Themes may be satirical but they aren't parodies exactly (at least, not really after the first book). In any case, they aren't quite my thing, though there are a some i intend to read or re-read.
I honestly don't know. I have a bunch of favorites, but I'm always thinking that if I revisited them, I might not like them as much.
GRRM's ASoIaF, The Girl Who Circumvented Fairyland On A Ship Of Her Own Making, the Dresden Files, Gentleman Bastards. I don't know if I'd call it a favorite, but Ember in the Ashes really impressed me me recently. Stardust, Neverwhere, and Ocean at the end of the Lane are good, though I still consider Sandman Gaiman's best work, though it isn't a novel.
I once heard a while ago that sometimes people didn't know what they liked until they actually examined what they did. Like if a person had Radiohead CD's, posters, went to their concerts, etc, they conclude "Wow, I must really like Radiohead". I never really understood that because you'd think if you liked something, you'd know it before you went and did all that stuff. But that was the case for Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rotfhfuss for me. I really like that series, but I wouldn't have said it's my favorite, yet it's one I often come back to and compare it favorably to other books, so I guess it must be a favorite. It just has so many solid examples of what I consider good writing in it. The Last Unicorn I really liked in a similar manner.
Then there is the artsy/less conventional fantasy that is unclear whether it qualifies as fantasy. House of Leaves. House of the Spirits.
Now, I'm somewhat ashamed to say that I do not have as much of a sci-fi catalogue as I do fantasy. Which is strange, because I love Sci-fi, but I seem to find my best experiences with it in other mediums, either games, shows, movies, or comics. Firefly, Doctor Who, Westworld, Deus Ex, and so on. I've read hyperion, which was excellent and probably the closest I'd call to being a sci-fi 'favorite'. But honestly, while I haven'y read as much of sci-fi as is healthy for me unfortunately.
Books I've been meaning to read and expect to be good for one reason or another:
Old man's War
Terms of Enlistment
Arthur C. Clarke stuff
The Book of New Sun
More discworld. I've read the first 5 novels, I need to keep going...
Malazan
And I'm currently reading Red Rising, which I heard many good things about.
There are books that are really close to my heart, but favorites is a strange term for me. I feel my hierarchy is much simpler than most. It's either not worth reading or worth reading. Beyond that, I suck at picking favorites.
Poodlestrike
Banned
They're worth it just for the sheer excellence of the writing. Nobody in the genre can touch Sir Pterry as a wordsmith; at least, nobody I've heard of.
Jest Chillin
Member
I tried to get into Discworld and it didn't grab me at all for whatever reason.
Poodlestrike
Banned
The mistake a lot of people make is to try and read them chronologically; the first few books are super rough, compared to the rest. That's why I direct people to Guards, Guards! and Mort for first titles rather than The Colour of Magic.
I start with GG and then read Mort, but I decided to read it from publishing order. It is rough, but not nearly as bad as many other books I've read and I don't mind series taking a bit of time to find it's feet. I'm currently on Pyramids
Poodlestrike
Banned
I mean, it's all still Discworld, but you gotta admit that Color of Magic is a much worse place for people to start than Guards, which does a much better job of "selling" the series.
And Pyramids is FANTASTIC. Small Gods is even better, though.
Jest Chillin
Member
You may be right as that's exactly what I did. I may give Guards, Guards! a shot then.
One thing I really like about Sanderson is the...I guess sensation of scale when it comes to the Cosmere. Even if you're just focusing on a singular world, you can feel the scale and scope of it all, and even then surprises can come easily. And then in rereads you notice stuff you didn't before.
For example, I'm in my first reread of WoR. For reference, my path through Sanderson's works was the Mistborn trilogy, then WoK/WoR, Elantris, Wax & Wayne books, and then Warbreaker. So I'm finding myself catching stuff, like in WoR
.
Things like that or (Warbreaker and Stormlight spoilers)
. Its such an interconnected web, I love it.
(Not sure how spoiler-careful I have to be so figured better safe than sorry)
For example, I'm in my first reread of WoR. For reference, my path through Sanderson's works was the Mistborn trilogy, then WoK/WoR, Elantris, Wax & Wayne books, and then Warbreaker. So I'm finding myself catching stuff, like in WoR
one of the Ghostbloods Shallan meets, Mraize's master, is from Scadrial. I never gave any thought to the whole mask-grown-into-skin thing the first time around, but after the Wax & Wayne books, its so obvious
Things like that or (Warbreaker and Stormlight spoilers)
Vasher as Zahel and Nightblood
(Not sure how spoiler-careful I have to be so figured better safe than sorry)
Finished Shadows of Self and that was pretty rad huh. I feel like reading the original trilogy again because apparently I've forgotten nearly everything about it except the main characters and the main story beats. There were a lot of references and returning characters in Shadows of Self that I had to go look up in the wiki.
Wowfunhappy
Member
It's November 22, where is my freaking book?!?
>:|
(I guess I shouldn't complain too much; I just got my hands on White Sand Prose and Aether of Night)
>:|
(I guess I shouldn't complain too much; I just got my hands on White Sand Prose and Aether of Night)
Imp the Dimp
Member
Wait, do I need to read all Cosmere books before I read Arcanum Unbounded? I still haven't read the second Mistborn era and Elantris.
edit: All right, it's just a compilation of old stories? I have not done any research tbh.
edit: All right, it's just a compilation of old stories? I have not done any research tbh.
Unbounded Day! Ebook in hand and even just a couple of pages already have given me goose pimples.
There is new material. Star charts from each Shardworld's system that we've seen so far (maybe more? Not sure on this one yet haven't flipped through the whole thing ATM), and an essay by the author of the the Ars Arcanum sections for each of the shardworlds. AND an all-new Novella featuring Lift, from the Stormlight Archives.
You don't need to read all the cosmere books. Based on what you haven't read, I would only suggest skipping Mistborn: Secret History - that HAS to be read after Era 2 or it will completely ruin the ending of the most recent book. Eleventh Metal should be fine, and the Allomancer Jak collection should be fine as well (it's made up of material from newspaper like interludes in the Era 2 books and has some implications but can safely be read independently). All others are completely independent stories as well.
Edit: also worth noting, I just discovered, each title page for each story contains a warning and/or suggestion about what novels if any should be read first. Allomancer Jack actually suggests it has minor spoilers for Alloy of Law.
As of yet, no. It's unlikely for a while, I would think.
There is new material. Star charts from each Shardworld's system that we've seen so far (maybe more? Not sure on this one yet haven't flipped through the whole thing ATM), and an essay by the author of the the Ars Arcanum sections for each of the shardworlds. AND an all-new Novella featuring Lift, from the Stormlight Archives.
You don't need to read all the cosmere books. Based on what you haven't read, I would only suggest skipping Mistborn: Secret History - that HAS to be read after Era 2 or it will completely ruin the ending of the most recent book. Eleventh Metal should be fine, and the Allomancer Jak collection should be fine as well (it's made up of material from newspaper like interludes in the Era 2 books and has some implications but can safely be read independently). All others are completely independent stories as well.
Edit: also worth noting, I just discovered, each title page for each story contains a warning and/or suggestion about what novels if any should be read first. Allomancer Jack actually suggests it has minor spoilers for Alloy of Law.
As of yet, no. It's unlikely for a while, I would think.
The first mistborn trilogy is a great start.
If you need something shorter roll with elantris or emperors soul
Don't worry, I had no idea what this was until 20 minutes ago and I've read all the cosmere stuff.
wesleyshark
Banned
Mime was supposed to arrive yesterday but got delayed a day. Should be here this evening... Hopefully.It's November 22, where is my freaking book?!?
>:|
(I guess I shouldn't complain too much; I just got my hands on White Sand Prose and Aether of Night)
Unbounded "spoilers"
Specific Unbounded spoilers regarding Roshar:
i find it very interesting that each system is part of a constellation, and that we are provided with a constellation showing no shardworld systems named "The Scar". I'm guessing this is where the story of the Cosmere began with the Shattering, and (SPECULATION) it's called the Scar perhaps because of damage done to local space in the Shattering itself? We know very little of Hoid's origins, and also wouldn't be surprised if his homeworld is located (was located?) in the Scar.
Knowing Sanderson the constellations will not be incidental.
Knowing Sanderson the constellations will not be incidental.
Specific Unbounded spoilers regarding Roshar:
did we know there were planets out past Mraize that correspond to the ten Essences (and therefore also to the Heralds? That was a major eye opener for me when I saw it.
Got my copy of Unbounded from Weller Book Works yesterday, signed #523. I love building a collection of his signed books.
On another note, finished Alloy Of Law. I'm sold on Wax and Wayne and will be starting the others soon.
However, I've started Elantris. I'm into Chapter 5 so far and it's turning out to be a good one. I might even start recommending this as a starting point for newcomers along with Mistborn. Right off the bat it's very accessible with a deep world and an engrossing mystery. Looking forward to this journey.
On another note, finished Alloy Of Law. I'm sold on Wax and Wayne and will be starting the others soon.
However, I've started Elantris. I'm into Chapter 5 so far and it's turning out to be a good one. I might even start recommending this as a starting point for newcomers along with Mistborn. Right off the bat it's very accessible with a deep world and an engrossing mystery. Looking forward to this journey.
We know though, plans can change.
Flipping through the print edition as I get home I'm even more glad to have the eBook edition as well. All the star chart illustrations are black and white in the print edition, but in color in the eBook.
Same for the White Sand excerpt but that's not as big of a deal since that's all color in the GN anyway.
Yeah I know. But still
Same for the White Sand excerpt but that's not as big of a deal since that's all color in the GN anyway.
Yeah I know. But still
Wowfunhappy
Member
Are the illustrated star charts available anywhere for people like me who have the audiobook?
It actually says it does before you start the story.
Goddammit Sanderson, you screw everything up, can you do anything right
Yep. As I mentioned above, each story, on its title page, gives warning for what should be read first and of spoilers.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Worth noting that most of these seem to have been left out of the audiobook version. There's a note about Secret History having major spoilers for the original trilogy and minor spoilers for bands of mourning, and I think there was a note for Hope of Elantris and 11th Metal, but elsewhere it seems to be absent. I specifically checked for Edgedancer and there's nothing there.
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