BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Also, it was not nature taking its course. It was triggered by an accident directly caused by Walt's intervention.
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Breaking Bad - Season 4 - Sundays on AMC
- Thread starter Cornballer
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triplestation
Member
By that, I'm sure he meant letting her live would have only made things worse.BenjaminBirdie said:
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
bangladesh said:
Like worser than murdering someone? I get Walt's justification, believe me. There's no need to keep explaining it to me.
I just believe his justification is rationalizing a cold blooded act of murder. There are eight billion other ways to solve that problem with no one dying.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
sp3000 said:
Like I said. I get how Walt has justified it. I don't understand how other people can agree with that justification.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
You know guys, Osama Bin Laden wasn't really evil. Most people just don't know he was diagnosed with cancer and got in to terrorism to support his family. Sure, he's killed a lot of people, but his intentions were good when he first started. 9/11 was actually because he let the wife of one of the bombers die and that sent them into a spiral of despair. It's not actually directly his fault. And sure, he used his wife as a human shield when the SEAL team entered his home, but how was he to know it was them? It could've been a home invader for all he knew. He also gets a really bad rep for creating countless terrorists around the world, but how is that his responsibility? He merely gave them the opportunity to follow his ideology, they didn't have to act on it.
Ridiculously hyperbolic and not really comparable? Of course, but I feel like the people who are defending Walt in this thread could actually come up with something like that.
It's getting painful to read. I can't help but feel the people who support/like Walt are the reason that TV these days is, for the most part, mind numbingly simple with black and white characters.
Breaking Bad, like The Shield or The Sopranos, is great television because it follows a man who descends further and further into a black hole of moral corruption. To not recognise that and still root for him just... well, let's just say there was a girl in my film class last year who didn't understand who Keyser Soze was at the end of the The Usual Suspects. I put her on the same level as the people who think Walter is a good person - absolutely unable to follow a plot or actions of a medium correctly.
Ridiculously hyperbolic and not really comparable? Of course, but I feel like the people who are defending Walt in this thread could actually come up with something like that.
It's getting painful to read. I can't help but feel the people who support/like Walt are the reason that TV these days is, for the most part, mind numbingly simple with black and white characters.
Breaking Bad, like The Shield or The Sopranos, is great television because it follows a man who descends further and further into a black hole of moral corruption. To not recognise that and still root for him just... well, let's just say there was a girl in my film class last year who didn't understand who Keyser Soze was at the end of the The Usual Suspects. I put her on the same level as the people who think Walter is a good person - absolutely unable to follow a plot or actions of a medium correctly.
IMACOMPUTA
Member
You're a drug dealer who has killed people before.BenjaminBirdie said:
Thug life motherfucker. She was a problem, and she disappeared without him getting his hands dirty.
Flawless victory.
triplestation
Member
LOL like what, ''Jane please keep this a secret. You have to let Jesse and I continue our operation. Here's some money. You can be a part of our team''.BenjaminBirdie said:
No. Jane was a gold digging, manipulative asshole. She needed things her way. When she first got a note that Jesse was cash BALLLLLIN, she got SO wet and claimed the money as partially HERS.
Like the other dude said, it's more ''should Walt have helped her stay alive?''
Black-Wind
Member
I thought that was pretty clear :/bangladesh said:
This isn't some random young lady, she just fucking blackmailed the man. A drug addict knows your secret, calls you at home and blackmails you once ... why try to save them after they OD and choke on their own vomit?
Gotta say, some of you guys really nailed it with your predictions, up to and including Walt using the plant for a less lethal poison. Kudos.
Yeah, Walt's a villain, but it's pretty impressive the way he remains just sympathetic enough for the audience (well, me anyway) to still be able to somewhat emphasize with him and root for him. Little touches such as having Walt express sincere belief when he hears Brock's going to be okay (and has a similar response when the neighbour survives) go a long way... you'd almost forget he's the one who placed them in harm's way in the first place. It's almost as if he's a bit of a doctor Jekyll/Mr. Hyde figure at this point. Another crucial scene is the breakdown with Walter Jr. An important indicator that yes, he's a bad guy, but he has plenty of depth and shades of gray... he's far from evil incarnate.
Of course, a lot of credit for this goes to Cranston, whose layered performance is just crucial. I recently rewatched the scene where Jane dies - arguably the point-of-no-return for Walt, where he definitively broke bad - and Cranston is amazing there... considering... reconsidering and then, we he decides to let her die, expressing almost as much shock at this decision as the audience. Incredible, heartwrenching stuff.
Anyway, amazing episode. Question though: it could have doubled as a (far from ideal, but workable) series finale if necessary. Was that by design or did Gilligan et al already know they'd get 16 more eps after this was written & shot?
Yeah, Walt's a villain, but it's pretty impressive the way he remains just sympathetic enough for the audience (well, me anyway) to still be able to somewhat emphasize with him and root for him. Little touches such as having Walt express sincere belief when he hears Brock's going to be okay (and has a similar response when the neighbour survives) go a long way... you'd almost forget he's the one who placed them in harm's way in the first place. It's almost as if he's a bit of a doctor Jekyll/Mr. Hyde figure at this point. Another crucial scene is the breakdown with Walter Jr. An important indicator that yes, he's a bad guy, but he has plenty of depth and shades of gray... he's far from evil incarnate.
Of course, a lot of credit for this goes to Cranston, whose layered performance is just crucial. I recently rewatched the scene where Jane dies - arguably the point-of-no-return for Walt, where he definitively broke bad - and Cranston is amazing there... considering... reconsidering and then, we he decides to let her die, expressing almost as much shock at this decision as the audience. Incredible, heartwrenching stuff.
Anyway, amazing episode. Question though: it could have doubled as a (far from ideal, but workable) series finale if necessary. Was that by design or did Gilligan et al already know they'd get 16 more eps after this was written & shot?
MorisUkunRasik
Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
Maybe I'm remembering the scene wrong, but I don't think Walt turned her over with the intention of killing her.
When he noticed she needed help he didn't because:
-She was going to use up Jesse and from Walt's perspective he was going to become a junkie
-She was going to blackmail him once the money ran out and destroy all he's sacrificed for, all that he's compromised himself for.
If he flipped her:
-She'd be alive
-She'd eventually come back to haunt him
-Would most likely lead to the total destruction of Jesse
-His family would lose their home
-His brother in law could lose his job
-He could be put in prison
-If Jesse wasn't killed he'd be in prison
-Once the operation unraveled Gus and Co. would probably kill his family
The decision wasn't black and white, do good or do bad. In that situation I must say my family's well being goes well above some junkie blackmail ratta.
I don't think Walt is so bad really. I could see myself doing the same things if I were in that situation.
Walt obviously cares about his family and Jesse, and most people would endanger others to save their own skin. Thats just human nature I am afraid. That hardly makes Walt evil.
Walt obviously cares about his family and Jesse, and most people would endanger others to save their own skin. Thats just human nature I am afraid. That hardly makes Walt evil.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
bangladesh said:
No one in Walt's family was in danger.
Walt's thought process, inevitably, at that moment was "Go to jail or let this girl die."
He made his decision. You really think that's morally sound?
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Technically, Walt never blew up anything.
So thinking in Walt perspective, Tio is the one who blew up the nursing home. None of that lay on Walt's conscious.
Raising this post from the dead. good catch.
So thinking in Walt perspective, Tio is the one who blew up the nursing home. None of that lay on Walt's conscious.
Exclamation-One said:Oh wow. Here is the very first shot of Season 4:
Gale's Apartment
Raising this post from the dead. good catch.
sixteen-bit
Member
Nice foreshadowing in Gale's apartment.
What are you even going on about. Walt is a great character because he's not good. All purely good characters are boring and that's what comprises the majority of tv, if anything we need more characters like Walt on TV.
Gus was my favorite character in the show and yeah I was rooting for him because he was such a badass. The best shows will make you root for evil individuals. That's the point.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
FantasticMrFoxdie said:
Hahahaha nailed it.
The vomit killed Jane, if you think about it.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
Like the bullet and the fall killed the bad dude as Tom Cruise said in Collateral!
IMACOMPUTA
Member
This mixed with ego/pride is exactly my opinion too.DennisK4 said:
Yeah, he could have taken the chemist job, but he was going through a phase where he wanted to do it for himself without anyones help, especially that guy's.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
Perhaps not "evil" but he's not a character that one should root for. The "right" thing to do would be to turn himself into the DEA the moment things got hairy and hope for protection, not kill numerous people and put countless innocent lives at risk.DennisK4 said:
Edit: Or take the chemist job, as the bloke above said. I totally forgot about that. Makes his actions even more ridiculous now I think about it.
Making meth to give your family a future is morally questionable but a move I can understand and forgive. Beyond that, he's shown a desire for a criminal lifestyle as the seasons go on and clearly likes to see himself as a bad ass. I know situations went from worse to worse, but he's never shown any desire to get out of that life until he was near certain death and now with Gus out of the way do you think he's going to just try and live a normal life? I highly doubt it.
He's unquestionably a bad person and not someone I can root for in the slightest.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
IMACOMPUTA said:
Right. I don't think anyone who despises Walt doesn't understand his thought process. It's all clearly laid out in the text. There's no mystery there. They just find THAT UNAMBIGUOUS AND READABLE THOUGHT PROCESS to be despicable.
Jason's Ultimatum said:
That's a great comparison actually. Walt and the assassin in Collateral are quite similar in the way their morals work.
Foliorum Viridum said:
I suppose you only root for goody two shoes characters on TV? The best characters are always those who are morally compromised.
Look at the "lawful good" characters in this show and you'll see they are all pretty uninteresting. Marie and Hank and Walter Jr. I mean they are just uninteresting to watch compared with guys like Gus, Walt, and Jesse.
triplestation
Member
''Have my life and plans completely fucked, my partner stolen and turned into a complete junkie and against me, let this pest call my home and blackmail me and do nothing about it, and let her live''BenjaminBirdie said:
vs.
''You've pestered me enough, didn't have to be this way but surely you'd continue to be a colossal bitch so I won't kill you but I don't have to save you''
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
sp3000 said:
Well, they're both amoral.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
bangladesh said:
There's no way on Earth the only way to keep Jesse from being a Junkie was to let Jane die. No possible way. That's the only morally sound aspect of his justification and even that didn't have to be resolved by her death. He could have thrown him in his car and drove him to a clinic that night.
Cornballer
Member
Ratings up from last year's finale:
EW.com said:
triplestation
Member
That'd get him to stop visiting Jane.BenjaminBirdie said:
Gary Whitta
Member
I also liked how they established last week that the detonator on the bomb didn't work first time to allow Hector to get off a few DING DINGS before it blew.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Wrong.BenjaminBirdie said:
Saul pointed out that if Walt is busted his family loses their home and his brother in law would be under suspicion, let go, or transferred to a do nothing desk job somewhere. Not only that, but how long after Walt's busted do the police figure out whats going on? Gus would most likely have him killed in prison before he can squeal, and most likely his family just in case he told them anything.
I think you'd underestimating Walt. He's a fucking genius. I'm sure even prior to that he had the time to reflect and understand the severity of the situation
Maybe not the good Samaritan choice, but when turn this junkie over so she can live, is the same as turn this junkie over so she can blackmail me, send me to prison, set my death in motion, take the home away from my family, possibly take the life away from my family, ruin my brother and sister in laws lives.
Yea, I hope that bitch chokes on it.
triplestation
Member
Yeah, his professional demeanor was shattered. For the first time he showed a primitive human emotion.bud said:
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
bangladesh said:
???
Better to let her die then.
BenjaminBirdie said:
He was going to get blackmailed. She was sympathetic up until that point. After that she absolutely deserved what she got. She was a dumbass for thinking she could take on Walt.
I think Walt would have been more inclined to save her had she not blackmailed him.
IMACOMPUTA
Member
SalsaShark said:
I thought it looked really good actually.. Better than two-face in tdk.
The eye twitch was a really nice touch.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
Haha, exactly.BenjaminBirdie said:
The logic hoops that people need to jump through to justify MURDER is ridiculous. Why is it so hard to accept he's not a good person?
It's baffling.
Edit: Well, maybe not murder, but whatever you want to label what Walt did.
triplestation
Member
Than to have to deal with her all over again? He's gotta go on living!BenjaminBirdie said:
Persona7 said:
If small time guys like Walt and Jesse can find a great dirty lawyer like Saul.
Can you guys imagine the type of criminal lawyer that Gus has at his disposal?
We're talking Maurice "Maury" Levy + Saul Goodman x 1000 here. Who knows what crazy orders Gus left in his will.
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
Is this how you want to be remembered, Hector?
Gus spelling out his own murder in that scene is just so so unfortunate and brilliant. The writers really did an amazing job of writing Gus into his own perfect death trap and it was telegraphed immensely by how he was smart enough to escape last week's ploy. This was literally the only way he could've been killed. Walt nailed it.
Gus spelling out his own murder in that scene is just so so unfortunate and brilliant. The writers really did an amazing job of writing Gus into his own perfect death trap and it was telegraphed immensely by how he was smart enough to escape last week's ploy. This was literally the only way he could've been killed. Walt nailed it.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Note to self: Stop Bothering.
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