USA! USA! USA!
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Breaking Bad - Season 4 - Sundays on AMC
- Thread starter Cornballer
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USA! USA! USA!
Eggplant Wizard
Member
Classifying Walter White as "sociopath" cheapens the character, in my opinion. I like to think that he was led to his current status by his own pride and societal influences, not because of some personality disorder.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Yeah you can shut up now.
USA! USA! USA!
Ha ha ha wow. People are really bringing out the big tautological guns to go up against his arguments.
metalslimer
Member
Well, that's kinda the definition of a sociopath right there.
Well I never said I wouldn't save her, only that I don't know what kind of decision I would make. A more extreme tv example would be in House where
Chase kills that genocidal dictator. He took the oath to protect all those in his custody, but in the same situations I don't know we wouldn't have thoghts about not letting someone go out and kill many more people.
Of course an argument can be made he only let Jane die to not hurt his ego and have him blame himself for Jesse's eventual overdose.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Classifying Walter White as "sociopath" cheapens the character, in my opinion. I like to think that he was led to his current status by his own pride and societal influences, not because of some personality disorder.
We're all subject to similarly dehumanizing turns of fate and bad surroundings. Sociopathy is reacting those stimuli by, say, letting someone choke to death on their own vomit in front of you.
Classifying Walter White as "sociopath" cheapens the character, in my opinion. I like to think that he was led to his current status by his own pride and societal influences, not because of some personality disorder.
Oh, he clearly has a personality disorder, from well before the show started. We have just been witness to it blossoming.
devilinanewdress
Banned
Yeah you can shut up now.
Nope. I'll continue to put effort into my posts; you can do whatever you like with yours. Which, I can see now, won't be much.
USA! USA! USA!
As if anyone needed any further proof as to exactly what goes on in the mind of those who would think Walter White is not a monster.
BenjaminBirdie said:Ha ha ha wow. People are really bringing out the big tautological guns to go up against his arguments.
It's hilarious. I haven't lol'd this much during a conversation since the Jbaird incident
Ha ha ha wow. People are really bringing out the big tautological guns to go up against his arguments.
What's there to discuss if a person sees no shades of grey? Amirox is aligned to Lawful Good, and the rest of us are wrong.
Well I never said I wouldn't save her, only that I don't know what kind of decision I would make. A more extreme tv example would be in House whereChase kills that genocidal dictator. He took the oath to protect all those in his custody, but in the same situations I don't know we wouldn't have thoghts about not letting someone go out and kill many more people.
That comparison is very much a stretch (but you said that). The fact that Walt valued his own interests and desires (keeping Jessie well and with him) over the clearly right course of action (saving Jane's life) is sociopathic behavior.
devilinanewdress
Banned
Ha ha ha wow. People are really bringing out the big tautological guns to go up against his arguments.
You could be Todd Van De Werff and he still wouldn't give a shit what you have to say about anything. He's stated himself you either agree with him or you agree with him. I myself have never even argued with him, I just stated he was being vitriolic so what do I even need to 'go up against him' for?
Sometimes a character is not gray, that's the problem! Skylar is a 'gray' character. Walter White, if he was once a gray character, is no longer... there's not an ounce left of something that you would call good in any normal situation. Does he even care about his family on any level? In reality, it seems he is even slightly intent to intimidate his own family. Remember when he forced his son to keep drinking? Remember when he towers over Skylar, telling her how HE is the danger?
If you can tell me where Walter White is 'gray', I am willing to listen. I simply don't think anyone has done that in quite a long time.
I said there are sometimes right and wrong points of view. And there are. In my view, this is one of those times. That does not mean if someone provided a convincing argument that we wouldn't reconsider it. The problem is that's unlikely to happen because I've actually watched the show, and I know what actually happens. Some of these people were very clearly watching different tv shows. Even Vince Gilligan suggested very different things than these people do.
If you can tell me where Walter White is 'gray', I am willing to listen. I simply don't think anyone has done that in quite a long time.
devilinanewdress said:He's stated himself you either agree with him or you agree with him.
I said there are sometimes right and wrong points of view. And there are. In my view, this is one of those times. That does not mean if someone provided a convincing argument that we wouldn't reconsider it. The problem is that's unlikely to happen because I've actually watched the show, and I know what actually happens. Some of these people were very clearly watching different tv shows. Even Vince Gilligan suggested very different things than these people do.
devilinanewdress
Banned
It's hilarious. I haven't lol'd this much during a conversation since the Jbaird incident
Yep. Because it's the people who don't give a shit debating in a gaming forum that are the ones subject to ridicule...
What's there to discuss if a person sees no shades of grey? Amirox is aligned to Lawful Good, and the rest of us are wrong.
Walter White is more like Walter Charcoal rather Walter Gray at this point.
Well, that video kinda puts this argument to rest. "He [Walt] enjoys it [being this criminal]." That pretty much says it all.
metalslimer
Member
And so far at no point did Walter White pass THAT bar for you? I mean, poisoning a child? Not a monster. Letting someone die in front of you? Not a monster. Murdering, god, I've lost count so far? Not a monster.
Hmm, it's funny because after the season 4 finale and definitely during some moments I certainly would think to myself that Walter is a monster. I don't know I guess I just see a monster as someone who is completely irredeemable and gone and takes pleasure other people's pain. I think Walter's ego is gigantic and blinds him to how much he hurts people sometimes and he doesn't actively set out to hurt people, only to please his ego where as Tony Soprano seemed to take pleasure and other's despair.
If you can tell me where Walter White is 'gray', I am willing to listen. I simply don't think anyone has done that in quite a long time.
The Fly? He seems pretty genuinely sorry for letting Jane die in that episode. Season 4 he was completely a dick, but on the other hand there was really no down time to think. Gus was capable of anything including killing everyone around him.
Well, that video kinda puts this argument to rest. "He [Walt] enjoys it [being this criminal]." That pretty much says it all.
Yeah, season 5 seems to be fully showing Walt turning into the grotesque version of the Walt that has bubbling since season 1. I think there is no way Walt makes it out of this season alive.
Extra Sauce
Member
I just watched the Season 4 finale and I am speechless.
Walt made all of his own choices. He didn't have to be in this life. Anything that happened afterwards is his own fault. He chose a life that is well known to be corrosive and dangerous, he chose to get involved with a guy like Gus, so yes that makes him a bad, monstrous person (and an idiot). I don't really see how you can frame it any other way.
Hmm, it's funny because after the season 4 finale and definitely during some moments I certainly would think to myself that Walter is a monster. I don't know I guess I just see a monster as someone who is completely irredeemable and gone and takes pleasure other people's pain. I think Walter's ego is gigantic and blinds him to how much he hurts people sometimes and he doesn't actively set out to hurt people, only to please his ego where as Tony Soprano seemed to take pleasure and other's despair.
Well, he might not take pleasure in pain, but I think Walt does take pleasure in dominating others. And I think that drive to dominate others is so intense now, so intrinsically tied to his pride, that it effectively acts the same as 'taking pleasure in other's despair.'
Think about what it meant to Walt. In order for Walt to get Jesse underfoot for his final plan, he allowed himself to poison a boy with an extremely dangerous substance that very really could have killed him. Now, did Walt exactly take pleasure in the poisoning of the boy? I doubt it. Did Walt take pleasure in his plan coming together, in Jesse finally coming under heel? I think so ("I won."). And it's because that is all-consuming that every other consideration that normal human beings might allow is gone from Walter White. He doesn't care. He just wants the power and his pride.
The Fly? He seems pretty genuinely sorry for letting Jane die in that episode.
It's interesting. I always thought of The Fly as the last episode where Walt's remaining shred of humanity died. But I dunno, even in this I felt his anguish was a bit selfish. He felt trapped in that moment, so now of course he is second guessing his choices. But too little too late, ya know? And if these feelings were genuine, he would have done the right thing afterwards.
It's important to note that Walt could have easily, throughout this entire series, gone to the police, tell them what he did, what he knew, and suffered the consequences. That is what someone with a normal conscience would have done. To say nothing of all the other legitimate outs Vince Gilligan gave Walt, he could have done this too. But again, he always chooses against it... chooses to go darker, chooses to put his family in more danger, chooses to do whatever it is that gets him off. And that is what makes him a monster.
brianjones
Member
There are too many redeeming moments for Walt to even list here.
yeah like 1st place in the pizza toss competition
Sometimes a character is not gray, that's the problem! Skylar is a 'gray' character. Walter White, if he was once a gray character, is no longer... there's not an ounce left of something that you would call good in any normal situation. Does he even care about his family on any level? In reality, it seems he is even slightly intent to intimidate his own family. Remember when he forced his son to keep drinking? Remember when he towers over Skylar, telling her how HE is the danger?
If you can tell me where Walter White is 'gray', I am willing to listen. I simply don't think anyone has done that in quite a long time.
Firstly, my "shades of grey" comment was not about Walter White. It was about you. You've declared yourself undeniably right on several occasion in the last few pages, and the rest of us as indisputably wrong. And you seem to be impressed with yourself enough to consider your giant ranting walls of text as proof of your brilliance. Am I supposed to parse your posts line by line in order to impress you enough for you to give me my opinion privileges back?
And second, WW absolutely is a villain. I've conceded that several times. What I find entertaining about it is I can see how he got to that spot, and I can sympathize with his plight. I can see myself letting my pride get the best of me. I can see myself getting cocky and swinging my cock around like a jackass after I pull out a victory. And when the shit hits the fan, I can see myself breaking the law in those situations. Walt is the bad guy, I'm not disputing that.
Eggplant Wizard
Member
I think it ultimately diminishes the series if it ends and Walter White's characterization is basically just "a bad guy who thought he was good." One of the strongest elements of The Wire, Deadwood, Mad Men, etc. is that they examine different sides of deeply flawed individuals. Don Draper can serve as a strong mentor figure. Al Swearengen is pragmatic enough to serve the camp's best interests better than the morally upright-but-inflexible sheriff. Avon Barksdale has enough compassion and respect for a former colleague to allow him to leave the drug trade.
Now it's doesn't necessarily knock Breaking Bad out of the TV hall of fame if Walt isn't seeking redemption in its final eight hours (there's no way he wants to rectify himself this year), but a series that essentially just serves as a means for viewers to pass unequivocal judgment on a fictional man seems... less good.
Now it's doesn't necessarily knock Breaking Bad out of the TV hall of fame if Walt isn't seeking redemption in its final eight hours (there's no way he wants to rectify himself this year), but a series that essentially just serves as a means for viewers to pass unequivocal judgment on a fictional man seems... less good.
Firstly, my "shades of grey" comment was not about Walter White. It was about you. You've declared yourself undeniably right on several occasion in the last few pages, and the rest of us as indisputably wrong. And you seem to be impressed with yourself enough to consider your giant ranting walls of text as proof of your brilliance. Am I supposed to parse your posts line by line in order to impress you enough for you to give me my opinion privileges back?
I think there are shades of gray all the time in conversations. I just don't think this is one of those times. I really do think there is a wrong side and a right side when it comes to the subject of Walter White being a true villain/monster or not.
But that is not to say I am not willing to listen to a genuine argument about how I am misguided. I am confident enough in my position to feel I am right, and also because this topic has been debated before in this topic enough times that I know the general layout of Walter White defenders arguments and generally nothing has changed. But if you have a genuine position and you see me post quite a number of examples backing up my own position, then if you feel strongly enough about it the option is to pick apart those examples and say how it's wrong. It's not ever more complicated than that.
ALTERNATIVELY, if you feel like you don't want to discuss it with me, that's fine. But then you can just as easily skip the theatrics and not waste anyone's time with these reactive garbage bin posts. You could just as easily have said "no, honestly, I don't think I'd get anywhere with you" or "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree." I want to discuss these topics with people like you, because it's fascinating to me. It's why I put effort into my positions. But if you don't want to do that, it's fine... I'd just hope you would do better than the shit you were pulling like the "USA USA" comment. That stuff just makes me laugh, and probably not in the way you were intending.
And second, WW absolutely is a villain. I've conceded that several times. What I find entertaining about it is I can see how he got to that spot, and I can sympathize with his plight. I can see myself letting my pride get the best of me. I can see myself getting cocky and swinging my cock around like a jackass after I pull out a victory. And when the shit hits the fan, I can see myself breaking the law in those situations. Walt is the bad guy, I'm not disputing that.
I find him interesting. But do you really think you would let your pride get so much of you that you'd cross the line into murder or poisoning a child? I don't think you would. I don't think any GAFer would.
I think it ultimately diminishes the series if it ends and Walter White's characterization is basically just "a bad guy who thought he was good." One of the strongest elements of The Wire, Deadwood, Mad Men, etc. is that they examine different sides of deeply flawed individuals. Don Draper can serve as a strong mentor figure. Al Swearengen is pragmatic enough to serve the camp's best interests better than the morally upright-but-inflexible sheriff. Avon Barksdale has enough compassion and respect for a former colleague to allow him to leave the drug trade.
Now it's doesn't necessarily knock Breaking Bad out of the TV hall of fame if Walt isn't seeking redemption in its final eight hours (there's no way he wants to rectify himself this year), but a series that essentially just serves as a means for viewers to pass unequivocal judgment on a fictional man seems... less good.
I always saw it more as a "good guy, with flaws, becomes bad guy when his flaws take over" type situation. I think his characterization has been a lot deeper than what you just described, even if it accurately summarizes it.
HIGH DEF JEFF
Banned
And second, WW absolutely is a villain.
NO he's not. He's a MONSTER.
LaserBuddha
Member
To correct an earlier claim Amirox: It's not you being a condescending jerk that got you de-modded; rather that's the reason people were glad it happened.
It's good at least that you're feeling the heat and moved the goalposts from "there's no possible room on this earth for a different opinion" to "I'd be willing to entertain a counter-argument but LOL it hasn't happened".
It's good at least that you're feeling the heat and moved the goalposts from "there's no possible room on this earth for a different opinion" to "I'd be willing to entertain a counter-argument but LOL it hasn't happened".
metalslimer
Member
I find him interesting. But do you really think you would let your pride get so much of you that you'd cross the line into murder or poisoning a child? I don't think you would. I don't think any GAFer would.
I don't think any Gaffer would be idiotic enough to land themselves the types of situations he does (even though his situations don't really happen to anyone because they are taken to the very extreme), so its hard to say what one of us would do if we did land in a bad situation. While we can debate whether or not Walt is only doing this stuff for his pride (he most likely is at this point), if it came down to a decision where it was either murder or someone dear to you is killed would you really just let that someone die?
Of course like I said this isn't the exact situations Walter has had to deal with as he had outs and chances to end things long before they got so bad, but I just contend that when taken to extremes our minds and bodies are capable of things we think we normally would never do.
Amir0x must be a joy to hang around with.
Do most people think that Walt is a great honest dude? No. Do most people think that Walt made numerous mistakes and could have avoided most of the crap that happened to him? Of course. Sometimes people like to root for the bad guy, it's as simple as that. Maybe it's because of their immense bravado, their badassness, some type of fantasy, or just the idea that you know... it's fiction and sometimes people enjoy anti-heroes. It's a change of pace. The show isn't even all that realistic btw just enjoy the ride. Nobody here that's rooting for Walt would do what he's doing, and even if they did, they'd be in jail or dead before season 1/2's finale.
Personally I enjoy seeing Walt's life and mind deteriorate. I enjoy seeing a man that has lived a life of complete disappointed and misery, blow up and release the shackles that have prevented him from taking control of his life and destiny, for better or worse, while not giving a fuck about anyone.
People talk about how Walt could have just accepted the money from Elliot and prevented all of this from happening. But you know what? I completely understand why he did what he did. Walt essentially envies him for having the life he thinks he should have. Elliot's married to the woman he loves/loved, and in his view, Elliot's riches and success come from his research. It's a slap in the face to him and hurt his pride. Now this same guy wants to 'help' him? Not gonna happen. Not when he arbors feelings for someone like that. To contrast, Walt with a PHD and a Nobel prize is a high school teacher with students that have no respect for him, his only child is a paraplegic, his wife doesn't work and their are scrapping to pay the bills, due to this he has a second job at a car wash with an asshole boss that has massive eyebrows, his brother-in-law treats him like some type of bitch, and to top it all off he has lung cancer.
Walt was a ticking time bomb.
Hopefully Season 5 will explain what really happened between Walt, Elliot and Gretchen. I'm sure they will.
Do most people think that Walt is a great honest dude? No. Do most people think that Walt made numerous mistakes and could have avoided most of the crap that happened to him? Of course. Sometimes people like to root for the bad guy, it's as simple as that. Maybe it's because of their immense bravado, their badassness, some type of fantasy, or just the idea that you know... it's fiction and sometimes people enjoy anti-heroes. It's a change of pace. The show isn't even all that realistic btw just enjoy the ride. Nobody here that's rooting for Walt would do what he's doing, and even if they did, they'd be in jail or dead before season 1/2's finale.
Personally I enjoy seeing Walt's life and mind deteriorate. I enjoy seeing a man that has lived a life of complete disappointed and misery, blow up and release the shackles that have prevented him from taking control of his life and destiny, for better or worse, while not giving a fuck about anyone.
People talk about how Walt could have just accepted the money from Elliot and prevented all of this from happening. But you know what? I completely understand why he did what he did. Walt essentially envies him for having the life he thinks he should have. Elliot's married to the woman he loves/loved, and in his view, Elliot's riches and success come from his research. It's a slap in the face to him and hurt his pride. Now this same guy wants to 'help' him? Not gonna happen. Not when he arbors feelings for someone like that. To contrast, Walt with a PHD and a Nobel prize is a high school teacher with students that have no respect for him, his only child is a paraplegic, his wife doesn't work and their are scrapping to pay the bills, due to this he has a second job at a car wash with an asshole boss that has massive eyebrows, his brother-in-law treats him like some type of bitch, and to top it all off he has lung cancer.
Walt was a ticking time bomb.
Hopefully Season 5 will explain what really happened between Walt, Elliot and Gretchen. I'm sure they will.
brianjones
Member
To correct an earlier claim Amirox: It's not you being a condescending jerk that got you de-modded; rather that's the reason people were glad it happened.
im really glad i didnt have to watch sopranos with amirox
even when i agree with him i find his argument tactics insufferable
sorry bro!
To correct an earlier claim Amirox: It's not you being a condescending jerk that got you de-modded; rather that's the reason people were glad it happened.
Some people were glad it happened; I got like a trillion messages on GAF and elsewhere from people who were sad it happened. I don't care at all about popularity, and if you ever thought I did, boy were you mistaken. It has always been my position to be as direct with my positions as possible. I don't do the sugarcoating thing. If it earns me enemies, that's fine.
LaserBuddha said:It's good at least that you're feeling the heat and moved the goalposts from "there's no possible room on this earth for a different opinion" to "I'd be willing to entertain a counter-argument but LOL it hasn't happened".
What changed goalposts? It was implicit in the huge ass defense I gave in my position, in the consideration I was giving those posts, that I was always open to hear the other side out. I still think there is a right and wrong side to this argument; I've always just been willing to be proven wrong. Nothing has changed.
Souless_PJ
Banned
Almost every major decision Walt has made is me / my family / Jessie dies or they do. Who wouldn't be self serving in that situation.
Hopefully Season 5 will explain what really happened between Walt, Elliot and Gretchen. I'm sure they will.
This is a key issue. It's possible that Elliot pulled some shady shit on Walt, which would justify Walt's aggression towards him and Gretchen. But it's also (in my opinion, very) possible that Walt blew himself up and out of Grey Matter due to his own personal social failures.
Almost every major decision Walt has made is me / my family / Jessie dies or they do. Who wouldn't be self serving in that situation.
So why didn't Walt just back out in one of the many occasions he had a chance if all he wanted to do was purely 'survive'?
This is a key issue. It's possible that Elliot pulled some shady shit on Walt, which would justify Walt's aggression towards him and Gretchen. But it's also (in my opinion, very) possible that Walt blew himself up and out of Grey Matter due to his own personal social failures.
I think so. Gretchen seems to be of the opinion that Walt just up and left, and I think given everything, it's extremely likely that Walt's pride somehow got in the way of that business arrangement too.
Eggplant Wizard
Member
I always saw it more as a "good guy, with flaws, becomes bad guy when his flaws take over" type situation. I think his characterization has been a lot deeper than what you just described, even if it accurately summarizes it.
OH no, I realize that there's more to his character than that. I'm saying that, without some level of self-awareness from his part in season 5, if Walt just gets worse and then gets killed by Hank or Jesse or cancer without SOME shading, then the dominant narrative becomes "He was bad the whole time!" Which is a lot less interesting than the dominant narratives of the other TV greats.
Hopefully Season 5 will explain what really happened between Walt, Elliot and Gretchen. I'm sure they will.
This story served its narrative purpose; what else is there to know about it?
metalslimer
Member
This is a key issue. It's possible that Elliot pulled some shady shit on Walt, which would justify Walt's aggression towards him and Gretchen. But it's also (in my opinion, very) possible that Walt blew himself up and out of Grey Matter due to his own personal social failures.
Yeah, honestly if it was Walt's pride that ended his relationship with Elliot and Gretchen it would give an entirely different look at his character. It would show he's always been a self serving asshole who's basically just a baby who can't handle getting his way. I'm not sure if thats the more interesting way to go though.
So why didn't Walt just back out in one of the many occasions he had a chance if all he wanted to do was purely 'survive'?
Well ever since he got involved with Gus there was no real backing out of that situation no matter what deal they had set up which Walter probably knew when he accepted that deal.
ALTERNATIVELY, if you feel like you don't want to discuss it with me, that's fine. But then you can just as easily skip the theatrics and not waste anyone's time with these reactive garbage bin posts. You could just as easily have said "no, honestly, I don't think I'd get anywhere with you" or "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree." I want to discuss these topics with people like you, because it's fascinating to me. It's why I put effort into my positions. But if you don't want to do that, it's fine... I'd just hope you would do better than the shit you were pulling like the "USA USA" comment. That stuff just makes me laugh, and probably not in the way you were intending.
I'm not at all interested in validating my opinions with you, to be honest. I've got nothing to prove, and your judgement is not any more valuable than mine, or any other random person's on the internet. I'm also not interested in being a case study for you to observe and dissect; though it's amusing that you consider people who disagree with you concerning the imaginary motives of a pretend person on an extended basic cable show to be sociopaths awaiting your expert diagnosis. Your arrogance is astounding.
I guess what I'm trying to say is "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree."
I'm not at all interested in validating my opinions with you, to be honest. I've got nothing to prove, and your judgement is not any more valuable than mine, or any other random person's on the internet. I'm also not interested in being a case study for you to observe and dissect
I guess what I'm trying to say is "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree."
That's fine, you should have stopped there. But you didn't, and you go on to show that you're not even really paying attention:
though it's amusing that you consider people who disagree with you concerning the imaginary motives of a pretend person on an extended basic cable show to be sociopaths awaiting your expert diagnosis. Your arrogance is astounding.
That is not at all who I was calling 'sociopaths.' You can think Walt is a GREAT GUY and want to PARTY with him, you'd be weird, but not a sociopath. The people I am implicitly stating are likely sociopaths are those who are saying they'd do the same thing Walt has done. Because that includes poisoning a child, multiple murders, terrorists attacks and more.
If you can say with a straight face that someone who would do all those things were they in Walt's shoes is not a sociopath, then I don't even know what to say to that. It's self-evidently insane.
People talk about how Walt could have just accepted the money from Elliot and prevented all of this from happening. But you know what? I completely understand why he did what he did. Walt essentially envies him for having the life he thinks he should have. Elliot's married to the woman he loves/loved, and in his view, Elliot's riches and success come from his research. It's a slap in the face to him and hurt his pride. Now this same guy wants to 'help' him? Not gonna happen. Not when he arbors feelings for someone like that. To contrast, Walt with a PHD and a Nobel prize is a high school teacher with students that have no respect for him, his only child is a paraplegic, his wife doesn't work and their are scrapping to pay the bills, due to this he has a second job at a car wash with an asshole boss that has massive eyebrows, his brother-in-law treats him like some type of bitch, and to top it all off he has lung cancer.
Yeah, the guy with the nobel prize is a high school chemistry teacher (a job that doesn't even, generally, require a chemistry degree I should point out) and it's everyone's fault but his own. He quit his high paying job for the family he didn't even have yet, and then never got another job at another chemistry lab in the intervening time for his family too. It's all about protecting his family from him having to hurt his own pride.
Walt's stupid decisions go back way farther than not taking the money. But yeah, he should have taken the money for his family, and he should have done it humbly. Because when your family is on the line that's what you do. It doesn't make you a man to turn it down and start killing people and producing drugs, it just makes you a dick.
Well ever since he got involved with Gus there was no real backing out of that situation no matter what deal they had set up which Walter probably knew when he accepted that deal.
He could have served Gus up to the DEA. Probably would have gotten an epic plea bargain out of it.
OH no, I realize that there's more to his character than that. I'm saying that, without some level of self-awareness from his part in season 5, if Walt just gets worse and then gets killed by Hank or Jesse or cancer without SOME shading, then the dominant narrative becomes "He was bad the whole time!" Which is a lot less interesting than the dominant narratives of the other TV greats.
Well, I will agree that the season would feel rather flat if Walt was suddenly written as a one-dimensional villain. I doubt that will happen though. And even if it did, I don't think that I would agree that that would go back in time and rewrite the show's entire character history.
As an example, when wasn't Tony Soprano a complete unrepentive asshole? He's one of the best characters ever written, because they took the time to analyze his entire personal development.
Yeah, honestly if it was Walt's pride that ended his relationship with Elliot and Gretchen it would give an entirely different look at his character. It would show he's always been a self serving asshole who's basically just a baby who can't handle getting his way. I'm not sure if thats the more interesting way to go though.
Interesting is debatable, but I do think it would be more consistent to his character if it ends up being that Walt was his own undoing there.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
If I was Walt I'd pay Saul's dude to bail the fuck out and erase myself. I guess this only works if I'm not married to Skyler though :/
HIGH DEF JEFF
Banned
That is not at all who I was calling 'sociopaths.' You can think Walt is a GREAT GUY and want to PARTY with him, you'd be weird, but not a sociopath. The people I am implicitly stating are likely sociopaths are those who are saying they'd do the same thing Walt has done. Because that includes poisoning a child, multiple murders, terrorists attacks and more.
If you can say with a straight face that someone who would do all those things were they in Walt's shoes is not a sociopath, then I don't even know what to say to that. It's self-evidently insane.
I've done all those things.
metalslimer
Member
Yeah, the guy with the nobel prize is a high school chemistry teacher (a job that doesn't even, generally, require a chemistry degree I should point out) and it's everyone's fault but his own. He quit his high paying job for the family he didn't even have yet, and then never got another job at another chemistry lab in the intervening time for his family too. It's all about protecting his family from him having to hurt his own pride.
Walt's stupid decisions go back way farther than not taking the money. But yeah, he should have taken the money for his family, and he should have done it humbly. Because when your family is on the line that's what you do. It doesn't make you a man to turn it down and start killing people and producing drugs, it just makes you a dick.
I can completely agree with this which I why I find him not taking the money much more despicable than some of the other actions he's committed.
terrorists attacks and more.
While we're on the subject of the terrorist attack on the nursing home, I don't know if going to the police about all this would have done any good. While Gus was awaiting trial he could have easily gotten one of his associates (Mike?) to kill anyone he wanted on the outside. Gus had to die if Walter's family was going to be safe. Just going to the police would have likely ended up with at least Hank dead and maybe more until Walt recanted his confessions.
I've done all those things.
well i'm sure you had a good reason
protecting your family and whatnot
making sure you cook the best meth in town and that no one takes the credit for it
you know, the hard choices in life
shadyspace
Banned
He could have served Gus up to the DEA. Probably would have gotten an epic plea bargain out of it.
Definition of a moist-ass move.
Eggplant Wizard
Member
As an example, when wasn't Tony Soprano a complete unrepentive asshole? Still one of the best characters ever written, because they took the time to analyze his entire personal development.
I suppose I need to watch The Sopranos in order to have proper context. :/
OH no, I realize that there's more to his character than that. I'm saying that, without some level of self-awareness from his part in season 5, if Walt just gets worse and then gets killed by Hank or Jesse or cancer without SOME shading, then the dominant narrative becomes "He was bad the whole time!" Which is a lot less interesting than the dominant narratives of the other TV greats.
Not really, because of this exact debate we have going here. What makes this show great isn't that it has shades of grey (it's really limited in its spectrum compared to the other shows you keep bringing up, even if Walt has 5 tones instead of 2). What makes it great is that it stimulates this doubt about his character. People continue to root for him even after he commits one of the most reprehensible acts imaginable, and that's an amazing feat of storytelling.
Also, I think the character with any real grey to him is Jessie. His descent is fascinating because he seems genuinely affected by what he does. And I think the show justifies itself on the level you're concerned about through him more than adequately.
HIGH DEF JEFF
Banned
well i'm sure you had a good reason
protecting your family and whatnot
making sure you cook the best meth in town and that no one takes the credit for it
you know, the hard choices in life
Nope, did it for fun.
shadyspace
Banned
Eh. I have respect for Tony as a man. Walt's a pussy.
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