Well, I'm sure the adrenaline rush was worth it. maybe even got a stiffy out of the exchange
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Breaking Bad - Season 4 - Sundays on AMC
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Well, I'm sure the adrenaline rush was worth it. maybe even got a stiffy out of the exchange
We don't know the full extent of Walt relationship with Gretchen. What lead to the break up, or why Walt left the company. Knowing this will explain why Walt refused Elliot's offer which is a pretty important point in the show since it's what lead everything to take happen afterwards. Had he accepted, there wouldn't have a been a show.
LaserBuddha
Member
shadyspace
Banned
You know, the most unrealistic thing in this show is that Jesse still calls Walt Mr. White.
I didn't forget anything, I even said in the very post you quoted what it meant. Again, I believe there is no room for any other interpretation. But the fact that I spent a billion words elaborating why I feel this way is implicit that I would like to see the other side's argument. I would like to see them try to formulate some argument.
I've participated in this exact discussion enough times to know it never really comes, but I nonetheless remain eager to hear those sides.
HIGH DEF JEFF
Banned
metalslimer
Member
I don't. If Tony was so afraid of his children becoming like him he either would have never had them or divorced Carmela and sent the kids away. Instead he let them get way more involved than they should have ever been. Tony literally had no redeeming qualities as a human being. Tony was too much of coward to break the cycle of death surrounding him.
shadyspace
Banned
Strength.
Eggplant Wizard
Member
I can accept that, but that's not my experience with the show. I still enjoy the character because it's fascinating how Walt continues to delude himself into thinking that he's a good person. But at the moment his arc still feels incomplete, and I'm hoping that the other shoe drops at some point, in some fashion.
... physical? Not sure what else could apply.
I think he'll endure something painful enough to make him question himself. If it doesn't happen though, I don't think I'll complain because sometimes people are just completely incapable of seeing themselves as the problem. Not as narratively interesting, perhaps, but maybe more honest about human behaviour.
Whether it's a wimpy move or not, it was an option open to him.
Given where Walt has come, if it is ultimately between him getting caught and him killing Hank, which choice do you think he'd make?
metalslimer
Member
Who's to say Gus wouldn't have just had him and his family killed from prison?
Well he could have let Hank die last season if he really wanted. I don't know if Walt has it in him to kill family directly if it means being caught. Now indirectly, I'm sure he would probably make the decision that would lead to him getting killed, but Walt I don't think could pull the trigger.
Jesse was a student of Walt's and probably called him Mr. White then. The name probably just stuck.
You just have to hope those feds are decent enough at the WitPro thing.
faceless007
Member
Defending Walt or Tony does seem to presuppose believing "might makes right," yes.
Of course, that's an abhorrent philosophy usually reserved to sociopaths...
-Pyromaniac-
Member
sorry but it's not worth the risk, god knows how many connections a man like Gus has, Snitch on him, and you'll find your wife and kids murdered. Protective custody or not. If there is even a 5% chance of that happening, it's not a risk worth taking.
LaserBuddha
Member
How the fuck can you be inviting an opposing argument whilst simultaneously declaring that there isn't even room for one?
Do you even buy what you're saying? Every time it starts off with your hyper-aggressive and dismissive shtick, then when you get the inevitable emotional reaction you start saying "I'm trying to have an intelligent and respectful debate, and you're just launching personal attacks!"
It's a game that has grown very tired.
It's a week before my move and since I have a lot of free time while not working in this down time, I decided to watch the series all the way through, marathon style. My favorite episode is without a doubt Fly, with Crawl Space and Salud a close 2nd and 3rd. I had only watched the entire series twice before this marathon, but I didn't miss a single episode when Season 4 aired last summer, and I am completely hooked.
Simply put, this is just damn good TV, and I am glad I went on an impulse buy with the first two seasons on bluray.
6 Days!
Simply put, this is just damn good TV, and I am glad I went on an impulse buy with the first two seasons on bluray.
6 Days!
Eggplant Wizard
Member
At this exact moment in time? He'd kill Hank, of course, but I also think it would affect him in a way that it wouldn't affect, say, Marlo Stanfield.
Oh god. :O
metalslimer
Member
After they didn't even believe one of their own about who Gus was? I wouldn't be surprised if Gus had employees all over the DEA. Would make sense with him not even being even suspected of anything.
it's not worth the 5% risk of his family dying when he rats out Gus, but it's worth the likely 30~50% risk of his family dying when he stays doing what he's doing? I mean, Gus even explicitly threatened Walt's entire family. He had people waiting in his house for him. Once, a murderous set of twins were waiting for him in his house too... given what we know about those two, what would they have done if Skylar and the others got in the way?
LaserBuddha said:
Like I said, I firmly believe this is one of those times when one side is definitively, provably wrong. But, even though I feel that, I still would like to try to see them formulate a defense of their position. It's why I put so much time into my posts. You can say many things about me, Laser, but one thing you can't say about me is that I've ever done anything except jump into every discussion head on and try to relentlessly draw people out into conversation. This defines every thing I've ever done on neoGAF. Why you'd think this would be the one case where I didn't want that to happen is, as always, beyond me. But you clearly have an axe to grind, and you clearly think I care, so I'll leave you with that.
ProfessorMoran
Member
-Pyromaniac-
Member
yeah but at least one is something he has more control of. There is comfort in control. If he turns Gus in, it's all out of his hands what happens next. But if he decides what happens next, then that's something he can work with.
Eggplant Wizard
Member
Walt needs (at this point in time, once again) some kind of distance from the actual events threatening his family in order to maintain denial. I think that he would reach some sort of turning point if, say, a family member was killed. Though I couldn't say if it would be a moment of clarity or a point of no return. ^ Also what Pyromaniac said.
I can't tell if you're defending Walt's bad thought process or just explaining it.
I would agree that's likely Walt's reasoning, but i'm unsure whether you think that he's being rational here?
I do believe that if Skylar, Walt Jr. or his infant son is killed, he might actually go into some level of 'what have I done' mode. But I think this'd probably quickly be replaced by a need for revenge, and a final affirmation of his negative lifestyle.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
One more week.....
Eggplant Wizard
Member
Ooh, I like this. But I feel like said "what have I done mode" might still be present even after his revenge is complete? It's not like revenge is especially psychologically healthy. But yeah, the fact that we can both see him having such a response shows that he's not completely beyond reason, and therefore beyond sympathy.
Oh god as in, omg I can't wait, or was it something I said ?
I can't wait!
LaserBuddha
Member
So since you're addressing me right now, you're going to pretend that it's just me and not a bunch of other people reacting to your hostile and condescending manner? And I never said you were trying to quash any kind of discussion. It's just that the discussion you want is one where everyone admits they were fools to think differently from you.
You say that I'm accusing you of not being willing to have a respectful discussion when it's your own words that are your accuser. Have fun with it, and as everyone continues to react negatively to you in the future you can continue to tell yourself you're doing no wrong. It's not worth mine or anyone else's time to try to get you to own up to your own words.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I guess i don't think there is a lot of room for rationality in a crazy world like the one he is in. And yes I'm aware he put himself there.
Still though. #teamWalt.
Also I love that gif!
metalslimer
Member
Here's an interesting question. Do you think if Walt could go back in time and do things over again from when he found out he had cancer would he? Would he accept Elliot's money and go on living a normal life? Or do you think he's so desperate for power he would never change back to that lifestyle?
LaserBuddha
Member
He'd probably walk up and shoot Gus in the face right away.
I think he would do it all again, he would just try to do it better. He's retaining his memories of the future in this hypothetical time travel scenario, right?
Remember in Fly where he says (paraphrasing), "there must be some combination of words in some specific order that can make her understand"? Yeah, he'd treat it like a SNES reset button.
It'd be a worse show, but a better Walt.
I'm not saying on any level that I want Walt to be a good person, I'm just categorically denying that I can see any way in which he is one.
The discussion I want, actually, is where everyone has an opinion different than my own, and where there are a thousand unique yet equally defensible positions wherein everyone spends some time with their posts and makes elaborate outlines for what they believe in.
It's why I hate participating in circle jerk topics. When I was a mod people used to ask why I was rarely in the topics for games I loved, but was always in topics for games I hated. The answer is it's far more fascinating to discuss things people disagree about that it is for people to discuss what we agree upon. So, no, I don't want anyone to admit they were fools to think differently than me. I want to simply compel individuals to put their all into their statements, to really defend them, so that I can begin to really understand where people come from. You may disagree with my methods, you may hate my posting style, that's fine. As I said, it's never been a popularity contest. What I do know is that this very style has elicited near endless huge topic debates, and I've read thousands upon thousands of fascinating opinions as a result of it, and so it is what it is.
In the end, it's up to you to decide to engage or not. If you dislike my style so much, as I've told everyone else ever, feel free to put me on ignore. You'd save yourself time, you'd save me time. It doesn't bother me one way or the other. Those who want to participate will.
Maybe, but, I think Walt really loves being a criminal, really loves what this whole lifestyle does for his ego and his pride, and I think that even though it would be a moment of clarity for one of his family members to die, I also think that'd be replaced completely by some new negative behavior. Because this is Walt now, and I don't see how he ever goes back from the lines he crossed.
metalslimer said:
I think he actually loves this lifestyle now, so I don't think he'd go completely back. I think he'd probably try to re-evaluate what he did wrong.
Edit; Alright, really gotta head to bed... 1:00am for a 5:00am wake up call *ugh*
Eggplant Wizard
Member
You probably missed my edit:
I think that the Heisenberg persona is still in its formative stages, and as such the kind of reaction that Walt would have to a family member's death isn't set in stone yet.
IamMattFox
Member
Watched the first two seasons right after the second one was released on disc. Just marathon'd seasons three and four over the last week.
Cranston and Paul are amazing actors.
I hate Walt.
I hope Jesse turns out alright in the end. =,(
Cranston and Paul are amazing actors.
I hate Walt.
I hope Jesse turns out alright in the end. =,(
I don't think Walt is a complete monster simply due to the fact that he legitimately cares for his family and Jesse. But he cares for his pride more or less equally, and those things struggle with each other, and that is what is actually the most destructive part about Walt. If Walt had been a true monster and cared only about himself, then his partnership with Gus would have went on with their relationship amicably and there would have never been a need for things to escalate. Instead, he stuck with Jesse no matter how dangerous it got for him, and that is why things went sour between him and Gus. Things would have kept being a business and less people would have been hurt had he just let Jesse drown in his own failures.
That said, Amir0x's position is perfectly valid. Walt still did those monstrous things. There is no excuse for several of them. Some people see those who commit things like poisoning an innocent child as a monster regardless of anything else. This seems to be the case with him. I see being a monster as someone who lacks any humanistic qualities, and this means not caring about anyone but himself. I don't see that with Walt, so in my eyes, he isn't. That said, unless he manages to hide everything and sweep it under the rug, if everything that he did gets out to his loved ones, I think he's going to lose them, and he would deserve it.
That said, Amir0x's position is perfectly valid. Walt still did those monstrous things. There is no excuse for several of them. Some people see those who commit things like poisoning an innocent child as a monster regardless of anything else. This seems to be the case with him. I see being a monster as someone who lacks any humanistic qualities, and this means not caring about anyone but himself. I don't see that with Walt, so in my eyes, he isn't. That said, unless he manages to hide everything and sweep it under the rug, if everything that he did gets out to his loved ones, I think he's going to lose them, and he would deserve it.
I don't really see intent as being relevant to 'monstrousness' (though I've avoided using that word for a reason, I'll go with it here). 'Monsters' are often unaware of how much damage and harm they're causing, and that's frankly what makes them scary in an Othering sort of way. It's so easy to understand someone who does bad things, knows it, and is even proud of it. It can usually be boiled down to a simple human trait like greed or lust or power.
That Walt clearly *believes*, with a certainty that can't be argued with, that he's doing good while he rains destruction on those around him who he purports to love, is what makes him a frightening individual to me. He doesn't understand his own terribleness and that makes him very different from most people.
[edited in note: please understand that I'm not saying any of the above in a "everyone's the hero of their own story" kind of way, though I do think that's true, of Walt and in general]
That Walt clearly *believes*, with a certainty that can't be argued with, that he's doing good while he rains destruction on those around him who he purports to love, is what makes him a frightening individual to me. He doesn't understand his own terribleness and that makes him very different from most people.
[edited in note: please understand that I'm not saying any of the above in a "everyone's the hero of their own story" kind of way, though I do think that's true, of Walt and in general]
It is soooo good. And the way Walt just gets all confidant again. Amazing.
'You might wanna hold off'
Mike: 'Yeah? *readies gun* why?
Because your boss is gonna need me.
6353 Juan Tabo, apartment 6..... yeah.
If Walt doesn't die at the end of this series or end up in prison, I will be seriously fuming. He is the most evil tv persona I have come across in a very long time. Like honestly, he is inherently evil. I can't even re watch the earlier seasons anymore because Walt just pisses me off so much.
Dude needs to die a horrible death. His wife needs to die. His kid is annoying but if he lives I'm ok with it,
Dude needs to die a horrible death. His wife needs to die. His kid is annoying but if he lives I'm ok with it,
Hm. I see what your saying, though I personally disagree. People who aren't aware of the consequences of their actions are often...well, normal to me. This goes for both good and bad characters because we're all human and no one can see all ends. I don't get the impression that Walt thinks what he is doing is good exactly, but he does think he's better than the people around him or is the best course of action. Wrong, but making a mistake and refusing to own up to it through ignorance or just pride or self delusion are things normal people do. It's those that care nothing for others or the pain they cause that frighten me the most. How do you deter someone like that from doing what they're doing. Because of his connection to his family, Walt can still be reached and realize what he is doing wrong. Even Amir0x admitted to that. But those that have no connection to others and take pleasure in pain have no reason to stop, ever.
As for use of the word monster, I generally don't use it either, but Amir0x's main point was about Walter being the worst possible kind of person. Monster is just a term for that because "worst possible kind of human being" doesn't flow off the tongue as easily.
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