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Breaking news about dinosaur tissue (seriously)

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UltimateMarioMan said:
Maybe 7 days to God are Billions of years to us.

One day for God is supposed to be a 1000 years for us, especially if you take some of the prophesies at face value. :p

Zealots can still argue creation in Genesis uses the term day metaphorically and we have no idea how much time there really is between each day or whether it is consistent from one day to another.

Isn't it cool to fight anything that seemingly disagrees with the Bible and then turn around and reínterpret Bible passages to suit this new challenging info, not as a concession but just as a way to reaffirm how the Bible always gets it right? :D
 

Buggy Loop

Member
7 days of creation in genesis = 7 tablets of creation from sumerians, later copied by assyrian, akkadian, babylonian and eventually got itself into the old testament in a very similar form but with translation errors.

The flood is also a story from Sumer's cuneiforms

Many other stories from the old testament actually..

Anyway, i want to see Jurassic park within 5 years, chop chop, time for science to step in :D
 
UltimateMarioMan said:
Maybe 7 days to God are Billions of years to us.
That reminds me of a joke:

Man: Lord, how long is a million years to you?

God: To me, a million years is like a minute.

Man: And how much is a million dollars to you?

God: To me, a million dollars is like a penny.

Man: Lord....would you give me one of your "pennies"?

God: Yes, my son! In a minute....
 
Iceman said:
Or maybe the flood was mentioned in multiple sources because it affected the whole world???

There are such things as common myths, mostly because we're all human and share some common needs, fears and wishes deep down inside all of us. Many religions share creation myths (with very important differences) without meaning divine intervention is responsible for the universe.

Furthermore, a population can suffer a traumatic event in a distant past that later becomes a myth. A big flood in a localized area is entirely possible and considering the limited knowledge of the world by people of the ancient world, it can easily be assumed the entire planet was affected, either by a myopic view or simply through exageration of oral tradition over centuries.

And as far as the Middle East is concerned, influence from neighbouring cultures and religions can not be dismissed, as was suggested a bit earlier. The area was at the crossroad of many empires and civilizations. So whether Moses copied Hammurabi of Babylon, Israeli slaves stole the idea of the single God from the Egyptian reformers or Satan is derived from Zoroastrianism is open to debate. I for one would say nothing is created in a vacuum. :)
 

Jeffahn

Member
Iceman said:
Or maybe the flood was mentioned in multiple sources because it affected the whole world???

This 'every culture has flood legends' (implying that the legends relate to Noah's mythical flood) is one of the great lies of Creationism. Many cultures have stories of great floods because they did experience a great flood at one time or another, and it may even have seemed to them that the flood covered the whole of their known world, but there is nothing to indicate in the legends to indicate global flood at the time of Noah.

...
 

geogaddi

Banned
Monk said:
If this happens, we can say bye to most people in organised religion. :p

And before anybody else makes any similar remarks I suggest you read the response from young-earth creationists. Come get a taste of your own medicine;

Still soft and stretchy
Dinosaur soft tissue find—a stunning rebuttal of “millions of years”

by Carl Wieland, AiG–Australia

25 March 2005

We previously announced the discovery of what seemed to be microscopic red blood cells (and immunological evidence of hemoglobin) in dinosaur bone (see Sensational dinosaur blood report! and response to critic).1 Now a further announcement, involving the same scientist (Montana University’s Dr Mary Schweitzer) stretches (pun intentional) the long-age paradigm beyond belief.

Not only have more blood cells been found, but also soft, fibrous tissue, and complete blood vessels. The fact that this really is unfossilized soft tissue from a dinosaur is in this instance so obvious to the naked eye that any scepticism directed at the previous discovery is completely “history”.

200532421.jpg

CREDIT: M. H. Schweitzer
Left: The flexible branching structures in the T. rex bone were justifiably identified as “blood vessels”. Soft tissues like blood vessels should not be there if the bones were 65 million years old.
Right: These microscopic structures were able to be squeezed out of some of the blood vessels, and can be seen to “look like cells” as the researchers said. So once again there is scope for Dr Schweitzer to ask the same question, “How could these cells last for 65 million years?”


One description of a portion of the tissue was that it is “flexible and resilient and when stretched returns to its original shape”.2

The exciting discovery was apparently made when researchers were forced to break open the leg bone of a Tyrannosaurus rex fossil to lift it by helicopter. The bone was still largely hollow and not filled up with minerals as is usual. Dr Schweitzer used chemicals to dissolve the bony matrix, revealing the soft tissue still present.3

She has been cited as saying that the blood vessels were flexible, and that in some instances, one could squeeze out their contents. Furthermore, she said, “The microstructures that look like cells are preserved in every way.” She also is reported as commenting that “preservation of this extent, where you still have this flexibility and transparency, has never been seen in a dinosaur before.”

It appears that this sort of thing has not been found before mainly because it was never looked for. Schweitzer was probably alert to the possibility because of her previous serendipitous discovery of T. rex blood cells. (It appears that the fossils were sent to her to look for soft tissues, prior to preservative being applied, because of her known interest.) In fact, Schweitzer has since found similar soft tissue in several other dinosaur specimens!

The reason that this possibility has long been overlooked seems obvious: the overriding belief in “millions of years”. The long-age paradigm (dominant belief system) blinded researchers to the possibility, as it were. It is inconceivable that such things should be preserved for (in this case) “70 million years”.

Will they now be convinced?
Unfortunately, the long-age paradigm is so dominant that facts alone will not readily overturn it. As philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn pointed out,4 what generally happens when a discovery contradicts a paradigm is that the paradigm is not discarded but modified, usually by making secondary assumptions, to accommodate the new evidence.

That’s just what appears to have happened in this case. When Schweitzer first found what appeared to be blood cells in a T. Rex specimen, she said, “It was exactly like looking at a slice of modern bone. But, of course, I couldn’t believe it. I said to the lab technician: “The bones, after all, are 65 million years old. How could blood cells survive that long?’”5 Notice that her first reaction was to question the evidence, not the paradigm. That is in a way quite understandable and human, and is how science works in reality (though when creationists do that, it’s caricatured as non-scientific).

So will this new evidence cause anyone to stand up and say there’s something funny about the emperor’s clothes? Not likely. Instead, it will almost certainly become an “accepted” phenomenon that even “stretchy” soft tissues must be somehow capable of surviving for millions of years. (Because, after all, we “know” that this specimen is “70 million years old”.) See how it works?

Schweitzer’s mentor, the famous “Dinosaur Jack” Horner (upon whom Sam Neill’s lead character in the Jurassic Park movies was modeled) is already urging museums to consider cracking open some of the bones in their existing dinosaur fossils in the hope of finding more such “Squishosaurus” remains. He is excited about the potential to learn more about dinosaurs, of course. But—nothing about questioning the millions of years—sigh!

I invite the reader to step back and contemplate the obvious. This discovery gives immensely powerful support to the proposition that dinosaur fossils are not millions of years old at all, but were mostly fossilized under catastrophic conditions a few thousand years ago at most.6

Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/images/200532421.jpg

Even if the "open-minded" folks in these forums immediately think that creationists are laughable at best, I urge you to ATLEAST be aware of their position. Thank you.
 

Zilch

Banned
Interesting article/counterpoint. Sadly, it will probably be ignored by those who would rather just throw a cheap shot in at organized religion.
 

AntoneM

Member
I'm open minded enough to read it, but, those creationist dudes are completely forgetting about carbon dating. Then again I'm sure they think carbon dating is some sort of athiest hoax.
 

geogaddi

Banned
max_cool said:
I'm open minded enough to read it, but, those creationist dudes are completely forgetting about carbon dating. Then again I'm sure they think carbon dating is some sort of athiest hoax.

Even though we all know that carbon dating is not the only way to measure the rate of decay of certain isotopes, etc. Carbon 14, 12 dating methods begin with untestable "scientific" assumptions. These scientific assumptions are the ones that the philosopher Thomas Kuhn in that article is talking about.
 
geogaddi said:
I invite the reader to step back and contemplate the obvious. This discovery gives immensely powerful support to the proposition that dinosaur fossils are not millions of years old at all, but were mostly fossilized under catastrophic conditions a few thousand years ago at most.

So Noah left the T-Rex behind, along with all large dinosaurs and most of the large Ice Age mammals? Because that is the true obvious question from a Creationist perspective. And even if they went extinct after the Flood, why don't they find modern elephants, giraffes or pandas in the thousands of sites where archeologists claimed to have found million-year-old dinosaur bones in?

Going for the Creationist perspective, all those animals, whether prehistoric or modern, must have been living together at one point, before the Great Flood. Some evidence of this must be available and, after 150 years of archeology, something that basic and obvious should have been found.

:)
 

Jeffahn

Member
geogaddi said:
And before anybody else makes any similar remarks I suggest you read the response from young-earth creationists. Come get a taste of your own medicine;



Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/images/200532421.jpg

Even if the "open-minded" folks in these forums immediately think that creationists are laughable at best, I urge you to ATLEAST be aware of their position. Thank you.

"[Dr Schweitzer] discovered transparent, flexible filaments that resemble blood vessels. There were also traces of what look like red blood cells; and others that look like osteocytes, cells that build and maintain bone."

"Dr Schweitzer is not making any grand claims that these soft traces are the degraded remnants of the original material - only that they give that appearance."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4379577.stm

AiG is once again mis-quoting and twisting the truth in an attempt to deflect attention from their laugable YEC dogma.

...
 

Jeffahn

Member
geogaddi said:
Even though we all know that carbon dating is not the only way to measure the rate of decay of certain isotopes, etc. Carbon 14, 12 dating methods begin with untestable "scientific" assumptions. These scientific assumptions are the ones that the philosopher Thomas Kuhn in that article is talking about.

Rubbish. Scientific dating is, as far as possible, always confirmed by multiple, independent methods.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html#creacrit

I don't want to have to go posting reams of text to refute this garbage but I will if I have to.

...
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Um, take note that fossil dating uses isotopes OTHER than that of Carbon. Carbon dating is for thousands of years ago, not millions.

That’s just what appears to have happened in this case. When Schweitzer first found what appeared to be blood cells in a T. Rex specimen, she said, “It was exactly like looking at a slice of modern bone. But, of course, I couldn’t believe it. I said to the lab technician: “The bones, after all, are 65 million years old. How could blood cells survive that long?’”5 Notice that her first reaction was to question the evidence, not the paradigm. That is in a way quite understandable and human, and is how science works in reality (though when creationists do that, it’s caricatured as non-scientific).
Ah, the sad part is that when creationist make themselves look like total fucking morons, like this paragraph, it's not obvious to the average person. What the hell did you idiots learn even in public education science classes? When you take a measurement, you must REPEAT it. When you make an observation, you must CONFIRM it. OF COURSE the initial reaction would be to check that what they were viewing was in fact what it seemed to be.

...and that last line is just stupid.

So will this new evidence cause anyone to stand up and say there’s something funny about the emperor’s clothes? Not likely. Instead, it will almost certainly become an “accepted” phenomenon that even “stretchy” soft tissues must be somehow capable of surviving for millions of years. (Because, after all, we “know” that this specimen is “70 million years old”.) See how it works?
I suppose somebody's never heard of amber, not to mention ignores that the line of reasoning implies that fossilization can occur over a short timespan, which puts those crazy young-earth creationists in yet another bind.
 

AntoneM

Member
Hitokage said:
Um, take note that fossil dating uses isotopes OTHER than that of Carbon. Carbon dating is for thousands of years ago, not millions.

alright, I'm retarded but the point still stands about the dating of the fossils.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
max_cool said:
alright, I'm retarded but the point still stands about the dating of the fossils.
Yeah, they'd deny chemistry, geology, physics, and even all of science without a second thought.
 
Bregor said:
It's a fallacy to use a strawman arguement and pretend that all (or even most) religous people are Creationists or believe that the Bible is the literal truth. There is much more to religion than that. Many of the greatest scientists in history have been deeply religous.

And what do you know about my beliefs? Nothing, I'd wager.
I wasn't attacking any religion. You must have missed the just kidding part. Why does many religious people always need to confirm their believes to others? Are you in doubt?
 

Bregor

Member
RonaldoSan said:
I wasn't attacking any religion. You must have missed the just kidding part. Why does many religious people always need to confirm their believes to others? Are you in doubt?

Who ever said I was a religious person? Do you always start your reasoning from baseless assumptions?
 

Ronok

Member
You did kinda make the impression to me atleast that you were in fact religions and protecting that very religion...... :-/

So I guess the question remains...... Are you? ^^;
 

Bregor

Member
Ronok said:
You did kinda make the impression to me atleast that you were in fact religions and protecting that very religion...... :-/

So I guess the question remains...... Are you? ^^;

No.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
geogaddi said:
Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/images/200532421.jpg

Even if the "open-minded" folks in these forums immediately think that creationists are laughable at best, I urge you to ATLEAST be aware of their position. Thank you.
Pfft, be aware of a loopy position? Whatever. Creationism is a sham. Anyone that believes in it is a sucker. And why the fuck is this shit in a thread about dinosaurs. Dinosaurs don't even work their way into creationism. This is bullshit. PEACE.
 
Jesus Christ, fuck Dino Riders.

Seriously.

Dinosaurs are cool enough without strapping lame ass guns to them and shit. An ornery thug from the hood can shoot you with a gun any day of the week, but can he pick you up in his mouth and devour you?!

And that folks is the special appeal of dinosaurs, and why guns and dinosaurs should never mix. Only stupid ass Western culture could concoct such a harebrained concept. Phooey!

Although a t-rex shooting is the only valid reason I can think of shit like 50 Cent getting shot nine times and not getting killed. What kind of ass shoots someone nine times and doesn't hit something vital?!

Hello - do we need remedial gun education for would be assassins?

DINOSAURS > GUNS!
 

Jeffahn

Member
Pimpwerx said:
Dinosaurs don't even work their way into creationism.

Actually, a fair proportion of YEC's go to great lengths to try to reconcile dinosaurs with a literal interpretation of the bible. Most believe that the Noah et al lived alongside all the dinosaurs and some even say that there are large numbers of prehistoric dinosaurs still alive today.

This is from an AiG article:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

"When Did Dinosaurs Live?

The story we have all heard from movies, television, newspapers, and most magazines and textbooks is that dinosaurs lived millions of year ago. According to evolutionists, the dinosaurs ‘ruled the Earth’ for 140 million years, dying out about 65 million years ago. However, scientists do not dig up anything labeled with those ages. They only uncover dead dinosaurs (i.e., their bones), and their bones do not have labels attached telling how old they are. The idea of millions of years of evolution is just the evolutionists’ story about the past. No scientist was there to see the dinosaurs live through this supposed dinosaur age. In fact, there is no proof whatsoever that the world and its fossil layers are millions of years old. No scientist observed dinosaurs die. Scientists only find the bones in the here and now, and because many of them are evolutionists, they try to fit the story of the dinosaurs into their view.

Other scientists, called creation scientists, have a different idea about when dinosaurs lived. They believe they can solve any of the supposed dinosaur mysteries and show how the evidence fits wonderfully with their ideas about the past, beliefs that come from the Bible.

The Bible, God’s very special book (or collection of books, really), claims that each writer was supernaturally inspired to write exactly what the Creator of all things wanted him to write down for us so that we can know where we (and dinosaurs) came from, why we are here, and what our future will be. The first book in the Bible—Genesis—teaches us many things about how the universe and life came into existence. Genesis tells us that God created everything—the Earth, stars, sun, moon, plants, animals, and the first two people.

Although the Bible does not tell us exactly how long ago it was that God made the world and its creatures, we can make a good estimate of the date of creation by reading through the Bible and noting some interesting passages:

1.

God made everything in six days. He did this, by the way, to set a pattern for mankind, which has become our seven day week (as described in Exodus 20:11). God worked for six days and rested for one, as a model for us. Furthermore, Bible scholars will tell you that the Hebrew word for day used in Genesis 1, can only mean an ordinary day in this context.
2.

We are told God created the first man and woman—Adam and Eve—on Day Six. Many facts about when their children and their children’s children were born are given in Genesis. These genealogies are recorded throughout the Old Testament, up until the time of Christ. They certainly were not chronologies lasting millions of years.

As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years.
Where Did Dinosaurs Come From?

Evolutionists claim that dinosaurs evolved over millions of years. They imagine that one kind of animal slowly changed over long periods of time to become a different kind of animal. For instance, they believe that amphibians changed into reptiles (including dinosaurs) by this gradual process. This would mean, of course, that there would have been millions of creatures during that time that would be ‘in between,’ as amphibians evolved into reptiles. Evidence of these ‘transitional forms,’ as they are called, should be abundant. However, many fossil experts admit that not one unquestionable transitional form between any group of creatures and another has been found anywhere. If dinosaurs evolved from amphibians, there should be, for example, fossil evidence of animals that are part dinosaur and part something else. However, there is no proof of this anywhere. In fact, if you go into any museum you will see fossils of dinosaurs that are 100% dinosaur, not something in between. There are no 25%, 50%, 75%, or even 99% dinosaurs—they are all 100% dinosaur!

The Bible tells us that God created all of the land animals on the sixth day of creation. As dinosaurs were land animals, they must have been made on this day, alongside Adam and Eve, who were also created on Day Six (Genesis 1:24-31). If God designed and created dinosaurs, they would have been fully functional, designed to do what they were created for, and would have been 100% dinosaur. This fits exactly with the evidence from the fossil record.

Evolutionists declare that no man ever lived alongside dinosaurs. The Bible, however, makes it plain that dinosaurs and people must have lived together. Actually, as we will soon see, there is a lot of evidence for this.
What Did Dinosaurs Eat?

The Bible teaches (in Genesis 1:29-30) that the original animals (and the first humans) were commanded to be vegetarian. There were no meat eaters in the original creation. Furthermore, there was no death. It was an unblemished world, with Adam and Eve and animals (including dinosaurs) living in perfect harmony, eating only plants.

Sadly, it did not stay this way for very long. Adam rebelled against his Creator, bringing sin into the world (Genesis 3:1-7; Romans 5:12). Because of this rebellion, Adam, and thus all of his descendants (you and me), gave up the right to live with a Holy (sinless) and just God. God therefore judged sin with death.

The Bible plainly teaches from Genesis to Revelation that there was no death of animals or humans before Adam sinned. (Consider just a few of the many passages, such as: Romans 5:12; Genesis 2:17; Genesis 1:29-30; Romans 8:20-22; Acts 3:21; Hebrews 9:22; I Corinthians 15; Revelation 21:1-4; Revelation 22:3.) This means there could not have been any animal fossils (and no dinosaur bones) before sin.

After Adam’s sin, animals and people started to die. It was now a different world, one of death and strife. A world that was once beautiful now suffered under the curse placed upon it by the Creator (Genesis 3:14-19). But a promise was given (Genesis 3:15) that God would provide a way for the penalty of sin to be paid so there would be a way for man to come back to God.
Why Do We Find Dinosaur Fossils?

In Genesis 6, we read that all flesh (man and animals) had ‘corrupted his way upon the Earth’ (Genesis 6:12). Perhaps people and animals were killing each other; maybe dinosaurs had started killing other animals and humans. In any case, the Bible describes the world as ‘wicked.’

Because of this wickedness, God warned a godly man named Noah that He was going to destroy the world with a Flood (Genesis 6:13). God therefore commanded him to build a great ship (the Ark) so that all the kinds of land animals (which must have included dinosaurs) and Noah’s family could survive on board while the Flood destroyed the entire Earth (Genesis 6:14-20).

Some people think that dinosaurs were too big, or there were too many of them, to go on this Ark. However, there were not very many different kinds of dinosaurs. There are certainly hundreds of dinosaur names, but many of these were given to just a bit of bone or skeletons of the same dinosaur found in other countries. It is also reasonable to assume that different sizes, varieties, and sexes of the same kind of dinosaur have ended up with different names. For example, look at the many different varieties and sizes of dogs, but they are all the same kind-the dog kind! In reality, there may have been fewer than 50 kinds of dinosaurs.

God sent two of every (seven of some) land animal into the Ark (Genesis 7:2-3; 7:8-9)—there were no exceptions. Therefore, dinosaurs must have been on the Ark. Even though there was ample room in the huge ship for large animals, perhaps God sent young adults into the Ark that still had plenty of room for them to grow.

Well, what happened to all the land animals that did not go on the Ark? Very simply, they drowned. Many would have been covered with tons of mud as the rampaging water covered the land (Genesis 7:11-12,19). Because of this quick burial, many of the animals would have been preserved as fossils. If this happened, you would expect to find evidence of billions of dead things buried in rock layers (formed from this mud) all over the Earth. This is exactly what you do find.

By the way, the Flood of Noah’s day probably occurred just over 4,500 years ago. Creationists believe that this event formed many of the fossil layers around the Earth. (Additional fossil layers were formed by other floods as the Earth settled down after the great Flood.) Thus, the dinosaur fossils which were formed as a result of this Flood were probably formed about 4,500 years ago, not millions of years ago.
Have Dinosaurs Lived in Recent Times?

If the different kinds of dinosaurs survived the Flood, then they must have come off the Ark and lived in the post-Flood world.

In the Bible, in Job 40:15-24, God describes to Job (who lived after the Flood) a great beast with which Job was familiar. This great animal, called ‘behemoth,’ is described as ‘the chief of the ways of God,’ perhaps the biggest land animal God had created. Impressively, he moved his tail like a cedar tree! Although some Bible commentaries say this may have been an elephant or hippopotamus, the description actually fits that of a dinosaur like Brachiosaurus. Elephants and hippos certainly do not have tails like cedar trees!

Actually, very few animals are singled out in the Bible for such a detailed description. Contrary to what many may think, what we know now as dinosaurs get more mention in the Scriptures than most animals! So dinosaurs—all the different kinds—must have lived alongside of people after the Flood.
Are Dinosaurs Mentioned in Ancient Literature?

Interestingly, the word ‘dragon’ is used a number of times in the Old Testament. In most instances, the word dinosaur could substitute for dragon and it would fit very nicely. Creation scientists believe that dinosaurs were called dragons before the word dinosaur was invented in the 1800s. We would not expect to find the word dinosaur in Bibles like the Authorized Version (1611), as it was translated well before the word dinosaur was ever used.

Also, there are many very old history books in various libraries around the world that have detailed records of dragons and their encounters with people. Surprisingly (or not so surprisingly for creationists), many of these descriptions of dragons fit with how modern scientists would describe dinosaurs, even Tyrannosaurus. Unfortunately, this evidence is not considered valid by evolutionists. Why? Only because their belief is that man and dinosaurs did not live at the same time!

However, the more we research the historical literature, the more we realize there is overwhelming evidence that dragons were real beasts, much like our modern reconstructions of dinosaurs, and that their existence has been recorded by many different people, even just hundreds of years ago.
What Happened to Dinosaurs?

Evolutionists use their imagination in a big way in answering this question. Because of their belief that dinosaurs ‘ruled’ the world for millions of years, and then disappeared millions of years before man allegedly evolved, they have had to come up with all sorts of guesses to explain this ‘mysterious’ disappearance.

When reading evolutionist literature, you will be astonished at the range of ideas concerning their supposed extinction. The following is just a small list of theories:

Dinosaurs starved to death; they died from overeating; they were poisoned; they became blind from cataracts and could not reproduce; mammals ate their eggs. Other causes include-volcanic dust, poisonous gases, comets, sunspots, meteorites, mass suicide, constipation, parasites, shrinking brain (and greater stupidity), slipped discs, changes in the composition of air, etc.

It is obvious that evolutionists don’t know what happened and are grasping at straws. In a recent evolutionary book on dinosaurs, ‘A New Look At the Dinosaurs,’ the author made the statement:

‘Now comes the important question. What caused all these extinctions at one particular point in time, approximately 65 million years ago? Dozens of reasons have been suggested, some serious and sensible, others quite crazy, and yet others merely as a joke. Every year people come up with new theories on this thorny problem. The trouble is that if we are to find just one reason to account for them all, it would have to explain the death, all at the same time, of animals living on land and of animals living in the sea; but, in both cases, of only some of those animals, for many of the land dwellers and many of the sea-dwellers went on living quite happily into the following period. Alas, no such one explanation exists’ (Alan Charig, p. 150).

But, one such explanation does exist. If you remove the evolutionary framework, get rid of the millions of years, and then take the Bible seriously, you will find an explanation that fits the facts and makes perfect sense:

At the time of the Flood, many of the sea creatures died, but some survived. In addition, all of the land creatures outside the Ark died, but the representatives of all the kinds that survived on the Ark lived in the new world after the Flood. Those land animals (including dinosaurs) found the new world to be much different than the one before the Flood. Due to (1) competition for food that was no longer in abundance, (2) other catastrophes, (3) man killing for food (and perhaps for fun), and (4) the destruction of habitats, etc., many species of animals eventually died out. The group of animals we now call dinosaurs just happened to die out too. In fact, quite a number of animals be come extinct each year. Extinction seems to be the rule in Earth history (not the formation of new types of animals as you would expect from evolution).
Will We Ever See a Live Dinosaur?

The answer is probably not … but, then again? There are some scientists who believe a few dinosaurs may have survived in remote jungles. We are still discovering new species of animals and plants today in areas that have been too difficult to explore until now. Even natives in some countries describe beasts that fit with what might be a dinosaur.

Creationists, of course, would not be surprised if someone found a living dinosaur. However, evolutionists would then have to explain why they made dogmatic statements that man and dinosaur never lived at the same time. I suspect they would say something to the effect that this dinosaur somehow survived because it was trapped in a remote area that has not changed for millions of years. You see, no matter what is found, or how embarrassing it is to evolutionists’ ideas, they will always be able to concoct an ‘answer’ because evolution is a belief. It is not science—it is not fact!
What Lessons Can We Learn From the Dinosaur?

When we see the bones of dinosaurs, we can be reminded that death was not a part of the original creation. Death is actually an intruder, entering when the first man disobeyed God. The Bible tells us that because we are all descendants of Adam, we too have sinned: ‘Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned’ (Romans 5:12); ‘For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God’ (Romans 3:23). We need to recognize that the wickedness in the world is because of sin, because man rebelled against God.

We can also be reminded that God, who made all things, including the dinosaurs, is also a judge of His creation. He judged Adam’s rebellion by cursing the world with death. Adam was warned about what would happen if he disobeyed God’s instruction not to eat the fruit of one particular tree. ‘But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die’ (Genesis 2:17).

Dinosaurs can also remind us that God judged the rebellion in Noah’s day by destroying the wicked world with water, resulting in the death of millions of creatures. The Bible teaches us that He will again judge the world, but next time by fire: ‘But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the Earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up’ (2 Peter 3:10).

We can also be reminded that after this judgment by fire, God will make a new heaven and Earth: ‘Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new Earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness’ (2 Peter 3:13). And what will it be like in this new Earth? ‘And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away’ (Revelation 21:4).

But we are also warned that many will not be allowed into this new Earth but will suffer for eternity: ‘But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death’ (Revelation 21:8).

Humans, who are all sinful from conception (Psalm 51:5), cannot live with a Holy God, but are condemned to separation from God. But, God provided a wonderful means of deliverance from sin. The Bible teaches that God offered the perfect sacrifice needed to pay the penalty for man’s sin. God’s own Son, the one who in fact created the world (Colossians 1:16), came to Earth as a man, as a descendant of Adam, to suffer the death penalty for sin. ‘But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive’ (I Corinthians 15:20-22).

The Lord Jesus Christ died on a cross, but on the third day, rose again, conquering death, so that anyone who believes in Him and accepts Him into his or her life, is able to come back to God and live for eternity with the Creator. ‘For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life’ (John 3:16); ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ (I John 1:9).

For those who do not accept by faith what Christ has done for them and do not recognize their sinful nature and need for redemption, the Bible warns that such people will live forever, but will be separated from God in a place of torment that the Bible calls Hell. But for those who commit their lives to the Lord—what a wonderful message! What a wonderful Savior! What a wonderful salvation in Christ the Creator!

If you, the reader of this web page, want to know more about how you can spend eternity with the God of creation, please click here."

*now tired*

...
 

Do The Mario

Unconfirmed Member
Jeffahn said:
Actually, a fair proportion of YEC's go to great lengths to try to reconcile dinosaurs with a literal interpretation of the bible. Most believe that the Noah et al lived alongside all the dinosaurs and some even say that there are large numbers of prehistoric dinosaurs still alive today.

This is from an AiG article:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

"When Did Dinosaurs Live?

The story we have all heard from movies, television, newspapers, and most magazines and textbooks is that dinosaurs lived millions of year ago. According to evolutionists, the dinosaurs ‘ruled the Earth’ for 140 million years, dying out about 65 million years ago. However, scientists do not dig up anything labeled with those ages. They only uncover dead dinosaurs (i.e., their bones), and their bones do not have labels attached telling how old they are. The idea of millions of years of evolution is just the evolutionists’ story about the past. No scientist was there to see the dinosaurs live through this supposed dinosaur age. In fact, there is no proof whatsoever that the world and its fossil layers are millions of years old. No scientist observed dinosaurs die. Scientists only find the bones in the here and now, and because many of them are evolutionists, they try to fit the story of the dinosaurs into their view.

Other scientists, called creation scientists, have a different idea about when dinosaurs lived. They believe they can solve any of the supposed dinosaur mysteries and show how the evidence fits wonderfully with their ideas about the past, beliefs that come from the Bible.

The Bible, God’s very special book (or collection of books, really), claims that each writer was supernaturally inspired to write exactly what the Creator of all things wanted him to write down for us so that we can know where we (and dinosaurs) came from, why we are here, and what our future will be. The first book in the Bible—Genesis—teaches us many things about how the universe and life came into existence. Genesis tells us that God created everything—the Earth, stars, sun, moon, plants, animals, and the first two people.

Although the Bible does not tell us exactly how long ago it was that God made the world and its creatures, we can make a good estimate of the date of creation by reading through the Bible and noting some interesting passages:

1.

God made everything in six days. He did this, by the way, to set a pattern for mankind, which has become our seven day week (as described in Exodus 20:11). God worked for six days and rested for one, as a model for us. Furthermore, Bible scholars will tell you that the Hebrew word for day used in Genesis 1, can only mean an ordinary day in this context.
2.

We are told God created the first man and woman—Adam and Eve—on Day Six. Many facts about when their children and their children’s children were born are given in Genesis. These genealogies are recorded throughout the Old Testament, up until the time of Christ. They certainly were not chronologies lasting millions of years.

As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years.
Where Did Dinosaurs Come From?

Evolutionists claim that dinosaurs evolved over millions of years. They imagine that one kind of animal slowly changed over long periods of time to become a different kind of animal. For instance, they believe that amphibians changed into reptiles (including dinosaurs) by this gradual process. This would mean, of course, that there would have been millions of creatures during that time that would be ‘in between,’ as amphibians evolved into reptiles. Evidence of these ‘transitional forms,’ as they are called, should be abundant. However, many fossil experts admit that not one unquestionable transitional form between any group of creatures and another has been found anywhere. If dinosaurs evolved from amphibians, there should be, for example, fossil evidence of animals that are part dinosaur and part something else. However, there is no proof of this anywhere. In fact, if you go into any museum you will see fossils of dinosaurs that are 100% dinosaur, not something in between. There are no 25%, 50%, 75%, or even 99% dinosaurs—they are all 100% dinosaur!

The Bible tells us that God created all of the land animals on the sixth day of creation. As dinosaurs were land animals, they must have been made on this day, alongside Adam and Eve, who were also created on Day Six (Genesis 1:24-31). If God designed and created dinosaurs, they would have been fully functional, designed to do what they were created for, and would have been 100% dinosaur. This fits exactly with the evidence from the fossil record.

Evolutionists declare that no man ever lived alongside dinosaurs. The Bible, however, makes it plain that dinosaurs and people must have lived together. Actually, as we will soon see, there is a lot of evidence for this.
What Did Dinosaurs Eat?

The Bible teaches (in Genesis 1:29-30) that the original animals (and the first humans) were commanded to be vegetarian. There were no meat eaters in the original creation. Furthermore, there was no death. It was an unblemished world, with Adam and Eve and animals (including dinosaurs) living in perfect harmony, eating only plants.

Sadly, it did not stay this way for very long. Adam rebelled against his Creator, bringing sin into the world (Genesis 3:1-7; Romans 5:12). Because of this rebellion, Adam, and thus all of his descendants (you and me), gave up the right to live with a Holy (sinless) and just God. God therefore judged sin with death.

The Bible plainly teaches from Genesis to Revelation that there was no death of animals or humans before Adam sinned. (Consider just a few of the many passages, such as: Romans 5:12; Genesis 2:17; Genesis 1:29-30; Romans 8:20-22; Acts 3:21; Hebrews 9:22; I Corinthians 15; Revelation 21:1-4; Revelation 22:3.) This means there could not have been any animal fossils (and no dinosaur bones) before sin.

After Adam’s sin, animals and people started to die. It was now a different world, one of death and strife. A world that was once beautiful now suffered under the curse placed upon it by the Creator (Genesis 3:14-19). But a promise was given (Genesis 3:15) that God would provide a way for the penalty of sin to be paid so there would be a way for man to come back to God.
Why Do We Find Dinosaur Fossils?

In Genesis 6, we read that all flesh (man and animals) had ‘corrupted his way upon the Earth’ (Genesis 6:12). Perhaps people and animals were killing each other; maybe dinosaurs had started killing other animals and humans. In any case, the Bible describes the world as ‘wicked.’

Because of this wickedness, God warned a godly man named Noah that He was going to destroy the world with a Flood (Genesis 6:13). God therefore commanded him to build a great ship (the Ark) so that all the kinds of land animals (which must have included dinosaurs) and Noah’s family could survive on board while the Flood destroyed the entire Earth (Genesis 6:14-20).

Some people think that dinosaurs were too big, or there were too many of them, to go on this Ark. However, there were not very many different kinds of dinosaurs. There are certainly hundreds of dinosaur names, but many of these were given to just a bit of bone or skeletons of the same dinosaur found in other countries. It is also reasonable to assume that different sizes, varieties, and sexes of the same kind of dinosaur have ended up with different names. For example, look at the many different varieties and sizes of dogs, but they are all the same kind-the dog kind! In reality, there may have been fewer than 50 kinds of dinosaurs.

God sent two of every (seven of some) land animal into the Ark (Genesis 7:2-3; 7:8-9)—there were no exceptions. Therefore, dinosaurs must have been on the Ark. Even though there was ample room in the huge ship for large animals, perhaps God sent young adults into the Ark that still had plenty of room for them to grow.

Well, what happened to all the land animals that did not go on the Ark? Very simply, they drowned. Many would have been covered with tons of mud as the rampaging water covered the land (Genesis 7:11-12,19). Because of this quick burial, many of the animals would have been preserved as fossils. If this happened, you would expect to find evidence of billions of dead things buried in rock layers (formed from this mud) all over the Earth. This is exactly what you do find.

By the way, the Flood of Noah’s day probably occurred just over 4,500 years ago. Creationists believe that this event formed many of the fossil layers around the Earth. (Additional fossil layers were formed by other floods as the Earth settled down after the great Flood.) Thus, the dinosaur fossils which were formed as a result of this Flood were probably formed about 4,500 years ago, not millions of years ago.
Have Dinosaurs Lived in Recent Times?

If the different kinds of dinosaurs survived the Flood, then they must have come off the Ark and lived in the post-Flood world.

In the Bible, in Job 40:15-24, God describes to Job (who lived after the Flood) a great beast with which Job was familiar. This great animal, called ‘behemoth,’ is described as ‘the chief of the ways of God,’ perhaps the biggest land animal God had created. Impressively, he moved his tail like a cedar tree! Although some Bible commentaries say this may have been an elephant or hippopotamus, the description actually fits that of a dinosaur like Brachiosaurus. Elephants and hippos certainly do not have tails like cedar trees!

Actually, very few animals are singled out in the Bible for such a detailed description. Contrary to what many may think, what we know now as dinosaurs get more mention in the Scriptures than most animals! So dinosaurs—all the different kinds—must have lived alongside of people after the Flood.
Are Dinosaurs Mentioned in Ancient Literature?

Interestingly, the word ‘dragon’ is used a number of times in the Old Testament. In most instances, the word dinosaur could substitute for dragon and it would fit very nicely. Creation scientists believe that dinosaurs were called dragons before the word dinosaur was invented in the 1800s. We would not expect to find the word dinosaur in Bibles like the Authorized Version (1611), as it was translated well before the word dinosaur was ever used.

Also, there are many very old history books in various libraries around the world that have detailed records of dragons and their encounters with people. Surprisingly (or not so surprisingly for creationists), many of these descriptions of dragons fit with how modern scientists would describe dinosaurs, even Tyrannosaurus. Unfortunately, this evidence is not considered valid by evolutionists. Why? Only because their belief is that man and dinosaurs did not live at the same time!

However, the more we research the historical literature, the more we realize there is overwhelming evidence that dragons were real beasts, much like our modern reconstructions of dinosaurs, and that their existence has been recorded by many different people, even just hundreds of years ago.
What Happened to Dinosaurs?

Evolutionists use their imagination in a big way in answering this question. Because of their belief that dinosaurs ‘ruled’ the world for millions of years, and then disappeared millions of years before man allegedly evolved, they have had to come up with all sorts of guesses to explain this ‘mysterious’ disappearance.

When reading evolutionist literature, you will be astonished at the range of ideas concerning their supposed extinction. The following is just a small list of theories:

Dinosaurs starved to death; they died from overeating; they were poisoned; they became blind from cataracts and could not reproduce; mammals ate their eggs. Other causes include-volcanic dust, poisonous gases, comets, sunspots, meteorites, mass suicide, constipation, parasites, shrinking brain (and greater stupidity), slipped discs, changes in the composition of air, etc.

It is obvious that evolutionists don’t know what happened and are grasping at straws. In a recent evolutionary book on dinosaurs, ‘A New Look At the Dinosaurs,’ the author made the statement:

‘Now comes the important question. What caused all these extinctions at one particular point in time, approximately 65 million years ago? Dozens of reasons have been suggested, some serious and sensible, others quite crazy, and yet others merely as a joke. Every year people come up with new theories on this thorny problem. The trouble is that if we are to find just one reason to account for them all, it would have to explain the death, all at the same time, of animals living on land and of animals living in the sea; but, in both cases, of only some of those animals, for many of the land dwellers and many of the sea-dwellers went on living quite happily into the following period. Alas, no such one explanation exists’ (Alan Charig, p. 150).

But, one such explanation does exist. If you remove the evolutionary framework, get rid of the millions of years, and then take the Bible seriously, you will find an explanation that fits the facts and makes perfect sense:

At the time of the Flood, many of the sea creatures died, but some survived. In addition, all of the land creatures outside the Ark died, but the representatives of all the kinds that survived on the Ark lived in the new world after the Flood. Those land animals (including dinosaurs) found the new world to be much different than the one before the Flood. Due to (1) competition for food that was no longer in abundance, (2) other catastrophes, (3) man killing for food (and perhaps for fun), and (4) the destruction of habitats, etc., many species of animals eventually died out. The group of animals we now call dinosaurs just happened to die out too. In fact, quite a number of animals be come extinct each year. Extinction seems to be the rule in Earth history (not the formation of new types of animals as you would expect from evolution).
Will We Ever See a Live Dinosaur?

The answer is probably not … but, then again? There are some scientists who believe a few dinosaurs may have survived in remote jungles. We are still discovering new species of animals and plants today in areas that have been too difficult to explore until now. Even natives in some countries describe beasts that fit with what might be a dinosaur.

Creationists, of course, would not be surprised if someone found a living dinosaur. However, evolutionists would then have to explain why they made dogmatic statements that man and dinosaur never lived at the same time. I suspect they would say something to the effect that this dinosaur somehow survived because it was trapped in a remote area that has not changed for millions of years. You see, no matter what is found, or how embarrassing it is to evolutionists’ ideas, they will always be able to concoct an ‘answer’ because evolution is a belief. It is not science—it is not fact!
What Lessons Can We Learn From the Dinosaur?

When we see the bones of dinosaurs, we can be reminded that death was not a part of the original creation. Death is actually an intruder, entering when the first man disobeyed God. The Bible tells us that because we are all descendants of Adam, we too have sinned: ‘Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned’ (Romans 5:12); ‘For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God’ (Romans 3:23). We need to recognize that the wickedness in the world is because of sin, because man rebelled against God.

We can also be reminded that God, who made all things, including the dinosaurs, is also a judge of His creation. He judged Adam’s rebellion by cursing the world with death. Adam was warned about what would happen if he disobeyed God’s instruction not to eat the fruit of one particular tree. ‘But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die’ (Genesis 2:17).

Dinosaurs can also remind us that God judged the rebellion in Noah’s day by destroying the wicked world with water, resulting in the death of millions of creatures. The Bible teaches us that He will again judge the world, but next time by fire: ‘But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the Earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up’ (2 Peter 3:10).

We can also be reminded that after this judgment by fire, God will make a new heaven and Earth: ‘Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new Earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness’ (2 Peter 3:13). And what will it be like in this new Earth? ‘And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away’ (Revelation 21:4).

But we are also warned that many will not be allowed into this new Earth but will suffer for eternity: ‘But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death’ (Revelation 21:8).

Humans, who are all sinful from conception (Psalm 51:5), cannot live with a Holy God, but are condemned to separation from God. But, God provided a wonderful means of deliverance from sin. The Bible teaches that God offered the perfect sacrifice needed to pay the penalty for man’s sin. God’s own Son, the one who in fact created the world (Colossians 1:16), came to Earth as a man, as a descendant of Adam, to suffer the death penalty for sin. ‘But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive’ (I Corinthians 15:20-22).

The Lord Jesus Christ died on a cross, but on the third day, rose again, conquering death, so that anyone who believes in Him and accepts Him into his or her life, is able to come back to God and live for eternity with the Creator. ‘For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life’ (John 3:16); ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ (I John 1:9).

For those who do not accept by faith what Christ has done for them and do not recognize their sinful nature and need for redemption, the Bible warns that such people will live forever, but will be separated from God in a place of torment that the Bible calls Hell. But for those who commit their lives to the Lord—what a wonderful message! What a wonderful Savior! What a wonderful salvation in Christ the Creator!

If you, the reader of this web page, want to know more about how you can spend eternity with the God of creation, please click here."

*now tired*

...

As someone who virtually has a biology degree (one more semester).

:lol

That can't be for real.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
Jeffahn said:
Actually, a fair proportion of YEC's go to great lengths to try to reconcile dinosaurs with a literal interpretation of the bible. Most believe that the Noah et al lived alongside all the dinosaurs and some even say that there are large numbers of prehistoric dinosaurs still alive today.
Sorry, but what makes these YECs any less crackpots? There is absolutely nothing at all to suggest that humans existed in the time of dinosaurs, much less primates. What a total load of bollocks. Reality can't be reconciled with fiction. PEACE.
 

Musashi Wins!

FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Instigator said:
Once you buy into God/Satan doing the first, why can't he do the other? It's a leap of faith in either case. No real difference, really.

I kind of agree with this. These conversations always "devolve" as it were, but there's all sort of other goofy things you believe in if you're going the religious route. Are dinosaurs going to be the backbreaker?
 

Ronok

Member
"Actually, a fair proportion of YEC's go to great lengths to try to reconcile dinosaurs with a literal interpretation of the bible. Most believe that the Noah et al lived alongside all the dinosaurs and some even say that there are large numbers of prehistoric dinosaurs still alive today"

So ermmm, they go to great lengths to try and do this....... It's a shame they are yet to be succesful really. ^^
 

Pimpwerx

Member
Malakhov said:
Not cool, we shouldn't be playing mother nature. They're gone and for a reason.
What reason would that be? I think we should do this b/c I think it would be awesome to see what dinosaurs really looked like. We're not playing Mother Nature, we're just tinkering with science. Jurassic Park was just a movie. PEACE.
 

Jeffahn

Member
Do The Mario said:
As someone who virtually has a biology degree (one more semester).

:lol

That can't be for real.

This is some of material from the infamous Ken Hovind (the self-proclaimed Dr Dino). He's known for claiming that prehistoric dinosaurs are still alive today:

"Pictures of Dinosaurs in the 20th Century

Evidence of Dinosaurs in the Twentieth Century. See Creation Seminar Tape 3 for much more information on this topic.

The evolution worldview says that dinosaurs lived millions and millions of years ago and since then have become extinct. However, the creation world view says dinosaurs have always lived with man and there might still be a few alive today. Here are some images supporting the creation worldview.

This apparent Plesiosaur washed up on Moore's Beach in Monterey Bay, California in 1925.The neck was described as being about 20 feet long. No credible explanation has ever been made to explain it, other than Plesiosaurs still living in the Pacific Ocean. The story is given in Shipwrecks and Sea Monsters, available from CSE for $9.00. The sardine fishermen often reported seeing creatures like this in the 1920-40 era.

This photo of the Lake Champlain monster was taken by Sandi Mansi in 1977.Dr. Hovind interviewed her. The interview is on Seminar video tape #3. Thousands of people claim to have seen this creature in Lake Champlain, on the New York/Vermont border.

Nessie, seen with open mouth.(Readers Digest's Strange Stories, Amazing Facts 1978 p. 424)

These two pictures are of an apparent Plesiosaur caught by a Japanese fishingboat off the coast of New Zealand in 1977. It had apparently been dead for a couple weeks. It was 32 feet long and weighed 4000 pounds. Some have argued that this is a basking shark because the protein was 96% similar to shark protein. No one has ever seen plesiosaur protein to know what it should look like. Scores of vastly different animals have very similar proteins. This only proves a common designer for both.

On November 16, 1970, this 50 foot long carcass washed ashore in Situate Harbor, Massachusetts in the middle of the night. Before it could be safeguarded and studied, a crowd had gathered and mutilated the body. Many of those who saw it felt it was a sea monster.

This 31" creature was found on the shore of Lake Erie and mounted by taxidermist Pete Peterson. It is currently at the Creation Evidences Museum in Glen Rose, Texas. (254-897-3200) The creature has yet to be identified.

Still-living dinosaurs are covered in Video Tape Three, Dinosaurs and the Bible."

Visit the URL below to see the pics.

http://www.drdino.com/QandA/index.j...rPage=PicturesofDinosaursinthe20thCentury.jsp

There's loads more on this guy but this is typical of the material he presents on his anti-evilotion roadshow.

...
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
That's more like anti-science than just anti-evolution, although there's only a fine line between the two.
 

BorkBork

The Legend of BorkBork: BorkBorkity Borking
HEY, way to turn a COOL dinosaur thread complete with dino raiders into another creationism vs. evolution flamefest. But since we're already into it,


Holy crap, I popped a few blood vessels reading that. I know you didn't write it, but since you posted it, it's fair game.

However, scientists do not dig up anything labeled with those ages. They only uncover dead dinosaurs (i.e., their bones), and their bones do not have labels attached telling how old they are. The idea of millions of years of evolution is just the evolutionists’ story about the past.

Again, already gone over in this thread, half-life dating (NOT carbon -14) of various isotopes have already determined the dates of the fossils. Also, grouping the "dinosaurs" as one species that ruled for 140 million years is ridiculous. There were thousands and thousands of species (more discovered all the time) that through speciation, much like what can readily be observed and CONFIRMED today.

However, there were not very many different kinds of dinosaurs. There are certainly hundreds of dinosaur names, but many of these were given to just a bit of bone or skeletons of the same dinosaur found in other countries. It is also reasonable to assume that different sizes, varieties, and sexes of the same kind of dinosaur have ended up with different names. For example, look at the many different varieties and sizes of dogs, but they are all the same kind-the dog kind! In reality, there may have been fewer than 50 kinds of dinosaurs.

I can identify completely more than 50 DIFFERENT dinosaur families readily, not even counting species. And oh, if the ark was able to hold ALL the dinosaurs, what about all the other extinct species that came before and after the dinosaurs? Did they all climb onto the boat too? It's funny in the next section that creationists then use the biological theories to say that oh, they died out because there was species competition and not enough niches.

In fact, if you go into any museum you will see fossils of dinosaurs that are 100% dinosaur, not something in between. There are no 25%, 50%, 75%, or even 99% dinosaurs—they are all 100% dinosaur!

Bullshit. Just because they don't display it in the museum doesn't mean they don't exist. Do people care more about a T-rex than a small insignificant looking thecodont with a long ass name that gave rise to the dinosaurs? Let's not get into the thing with BIRDS either. Do a little research in the literature.


When reading evolutionist literature, you will be astonished at the range of ideas concerning their supposed extinction. The following is just a small list of theories:
Dinosaurs starved to death; they died from overeating; they were poisoned; they became blind from cataracts and could not reproduce; mammals ate their eggs. Other causes include-volcanic dust, poisonous gases, comets, sunspots, meteorites, mass suicide, constipation, parasites, shrinking brain (and greater stupidity), slipped discs, changes in the composition of air, etc.

Many of them, such as them being too stupid to live, being too big, have been discounted a very long time ago. The general consensus is that there is NO single theory that counts for 100% of what happened. A combination of declining species diversity along with a catastrophic asteroid impact and the inability to adapt to rapidly changing global circumstances is the most likely combination of ideas right now. Of course with science theories can be proven or disproven, given new evidence. It's never as simple as creationists state.

As for the living dinosaur sightings thing, that doesn't conflict with evolution AT ALL. Have you head of living fossils? People thought that this supposedly extinct for 70 million year old fish was caught off Madagascar in the 1930's. Is that supposed to prove that evolution is false? nope. As for the reputability of some of those claims, eyes can deceive. I mean manatees were confused as mermaids and sirens in the old days by sailors. Have you SEEN a manatee? :lol Sorry I went on a rant, just pisses me off to spoil a cool dino thread with this stuff :p

P.S. plesiosaur = NOT A DINOSAUR :)
 

Socreges

Banned
So discovering dino DNA doesn't mean the end of religion - perhaps a slight shift from Creationist to Evo Creationist, but people are remarkable set in their ways. Not much is likely to change.
Haha, yep.


Homer: Hey, Flanders, heading for church? Well, I thought I could save you a little time.

Ned: Oooh, found a new shortcut.

Homer: Better. I was working on a flat tax proposal and I accidentally proved there's no God. [shows Flanders a sheet of paper with complex figuring on it]

Ned: [flustered] We'll just see about that. [reads the paper] Uh-oh. Well, maybe he made a mistake. [checks it again] Nope, it's airtight. Can't let this little doozy get out. [burns paper]
 

geogaddi

Banned
Its funny how many people don't really know that they have certain unexamined pre-suppositions that are interpreting what they think to be true. For instance, most people examine creationist claims with the already set impression that they can't possibly be right so they examine the claims with the a priori attitude "whatever they say, there must be an inconsistancy or some loop-hole", so, they end up willfully ignoring premises as they are.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
geogaddi said:
Its funny how many people don't really know that they have certain unexamined pre-suppositions that are interpreting what they think to be true. For instance, most people examine creationist claims with the already set impression that they can't possibly be right so they examine the claims with the a priori attitude "whatever they say, there must be an inconsistancy or some loop-hole", so, they end up willfully ignoring premises as they are.
Stop projecting. You're the one sitting on your ass with the preset conclusion that the bible is 100% literal truth and scientists support evolution just because they are hardset against creationism.
 

geogaddi

Banned
Hitokage said:
Stop projecting. You're the one sitting on your ass with the preset conclusion that the bible is 100% literal truth and scientists support evolution just because they are hardset against creationism.

So you agree with me that people have "preset conclusions"? It would be interesting to see if you claim that you don't have any presuppositions. BTW...

Professor Richard Lewontin, a geneticist (and self-proclaimed Marxist), is a renowned champion of neo-Darwinism, and certainly one of the world’s leaders in evolutionary biology. He wrote this very revealing comment (the italics were in the original). It illustrates the implicit philosophical bias against Genesis creation—regardless of whether or not the facts support it.

‘We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.’

Reference:
Richard Lewontin, Billions and billions of demons, The New York Review, p. 31, 9 January 1997.


I'm not saying because of him then its true for the rest, but, quite frankly, I think its not far-fetched to think that most evolution-believing scientists have the preset conclusion that materialism is true (we live in a closed system that allows only for natural things to occur, something that can't be be tested by observation, only assumed according to Heisenberg's Principle of Uncertainty).
 

kablooey

Member
Jeffahn said:
As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years.

:lol :lol :lol I read upto here before I got out of breath from laughing so hard. Yeah, Creationism is based on solid science, and is not at all laughable. :)

*smirks*
 

Do The Mario

Unconfirmed Member
Geodaddi if we are created in god’s image how come hominids like

Homo erectus
Homo neanderthalaensis
Homo heidelbergensis



Look like much like us and are not mentioned in the bible?
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
geogaddi: I regret to inform you that while you creationists beg for table scraps from real scientists, this "materialistic bias" you speak of is hardly directed solely at christians, but rather it includes The Matrix, invisible dragons, or ANY OTHER claim imaginable. Once you throw out testability, and you're dying to do so to reconcile biblical inerrancy with reality, the door is wide-fucking-open. Going by utility alone, science has been hugely successful and biology is a richly developed area of study, while creationists, who haven't explained or predicted shit, insist on their preschool A-Z animal picture books.

BTW, quote mining makes you look even more the tool.
 
Bregor said:
Who ever said I was a religious person? Do you always start your reasoning from baseless assumptions?
I think you care more about bashing me than having a real discussion. Whatever... if it makes your day.
 
So you agree with me that people have "preset conclusions"?

You mean that the scientific method has produced a scientifically sound theory?

I'm not saying because of him then its true for the rest, but, quite frankly, I think its not far-fetched to think that most evolution-believing scientists have the preset conclusion that materialism is true (we live in a closed system that allows only for natural things to occur, something that can't be be tested by observation, only assumed according to Heisenberg's Principle of Uncertainty).

Even supposing the "evolutionists" presuppose materialism on insufficient grounds; it lends no more credence to the "theory" of creationism. It would have the exact same impact on any other scientific notion that presupposes materialism - namely ALL of them. There's little to differentiate evolution from other scientific theories, laws and so forth - except that, more than almost all others, it contradicts scripture that has zero scientific value.

You can deny away the entire universe outside your own mind if you like. If it makes you feel any better, im doing the reverse right now.
 
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