Jimbob Smalls
Banned
I find the UKIP argument specifically on the EU question a reasonable one that at least needs to be debated. The rest of their arguments on the stuff they clearly don't care about, not so much.
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Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
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I find the UKIP argument specifically on the EU question a reasonable one that at least needs to be debated. The rest of their arguments on the stuff they clearly don't care about, not so much.
Not really. The potential threat of Tory eurosceptics raising hell on the back benches is what caused Cameron to give them the referendum. UKIP's electoral threat amounted to a whole one MP. (Which is bullshit, but that's another matter)
Farage will appeal to people already voting for 'out'. Those aren't enough to win the referendum, so the leave campaign needs to appeal to people on the fence, and Farage talking about HIV victims coming for treatment will drive people away.
On a broader point, if we're going to see these debates become a regular part of elections and referenda, then they need to work better. You can't have a situation where one party leader just sets the debate and picks his opponents to suit him. That's not helping the democratic debate, it's just helping one party.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Would really love to see Johnson v Johnson. Or think Johnson would year Johnson to shreds.
lastplayed
Member
Welp, just registered to vote. I hope my voting forms can get to NZ and back before voting closes.
Roberto Larcos
Member
In a lick of time.
I wouldn't hold out much hope, postal voting from abroad is usually a complete farce. Even if my form arrived tomorrow, I doubt Correos ES could get it to the UK in time - they're just that shit.
Given that every single piece of research suggests it'll derail the economy and leave us worse off in every conceivable way, it's pretty easy.
He probably thinks that's hyperbole though.
You know, like every other "piece of research" both sides of this sorry campaign have blurted out so far. This whole referendum "debate" has been an embarassment up to this point, and shows no signs of improving. Tory Pigfucker vs That Bloke Dahn the Pub? LOL.
That said, even with both sides being shitstains, I'm still voting Remain. Too much to be lost, not enough to be gained. IMO of course. Plus, I can't wait to see the shitfits Eurosceptic Tory backbenchers have once the result comes up Remain, that'll be entertainment plenty for the rest of the year by itself.
You know, like every other "piece of research" both sides of this sorry campaign have blurted out so far. This whole referendum "debate" has been an embarassment up to this point, and shows no signs of improving. Tory Pigfucker vs That Bloke Dahn the Pub? LOL.
That said, even with both sides being shitstains, I'm still voting Remain. Too much to be lost, not enough to be gained. IMO of course. Plus, I can't wait to see the shitfits Eurosceptic Tory backbenchers have once the result comes up Remain, that'll be entertainment plenty for the rest of the year by itself.
"Both sides are bad" stuff doesn't really play if actually look in to it. Osborne's figures suck balls but every other study is pretty conclusive.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
There's professors of economics on both sides of the debate.
Professor Minford ripped the parliamentary Committee a new one arguing for leave a while back. All they could do was hand wave under a torrent of comments that made sense
I just look at Greece, Spain and Italy and think that the argument that the EU creates prosperity is a lie. It maybe does for a select few at the expense of others.
The only way for everyone to prosper in the EU is for some countries to compromise their economic progress to help others.
Never going to happen. Literally never.
Again with the pretense that both sides are equal. There are far, far more favouring one side.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
I'm not seeing it. I'm just seeing equally ludicrous claims from both sides big hitters.
I desperately want someone, anyone to sit down and talk sensibly instead of just imagining wars and talking extremes.
I believe if we leave some doors may close others may open. There's enough countries in economic dire straits in the EU at the moment that the desire to minimise economic impact from a Brexit will be very strong. Italy is on the brink and Spain fell off the brink and is in complete free fall with very little they can do unless Germany agrees to it.
I want remain, instead of foreseeing wars and economic doom to explain how things can get better because at the moment the EU is in a horrible place but remain is implying that this is the best things can be and the only way is down. I'm thinking wtf at this.
Nicktendo86
Member
I know it is obviously biased and has some utter pricks on it but I don't know how anyone can watch brexit the movie and not feel at least an inkling of wanting to vote leave.
https://youtu.be/UTMxfAkxfQ0
https://youtu.be/UTMxfAkxfQ0
SporeCrawler
Member
UK should take their concept of absolute souvereignity and vote leave. That kind of concept doesnt help in a political union. Of course kt would be interesting to see if UK will really have so much more freedom to choose their own foreign policies after they leave.
Wrestlemania
Banned
From the director of 'The Great Global Warming Swindle' no less!
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/brexit-the-movie-review-sam-kriss-martin-durkin
Sounds great.
Carl2291
Member
I'll give this a watch tonight. Seen it banded around on social media too. Looks good!
Jezbollah
Member
No, Dave is playing this perfectly. The Out campaigns are having fits and fighting each other at the mere prospect of Farage being the one in the debate. Cameron showing indecision just means the rival Brexit gangs are fighting to put their guy in to try and get Cameron to accept. It's a car crash to watch.
Old 'Nige is the Remain's secret weapon
CyclopsRock
Member
No, Dave is playing this perfectly. The Out campaigns are having fits and fighting each other at the mere prospect of Farage being the one in the debate. Cameron showing indecision just means the rival Brexit gangs are fighting to put their guy in to try and get Cameron to accept. It's a car crash to watch.
Old 'Nige is the Remain's secret weapon
Agreed. Plus he will be keen to keep this referendum from becoming a referendum on the government. His job is too significant to be debating on the EUs behalf on TV.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
No sure how having an opinion on global warming one way or another has anything to do with the EU.
Hand waving is killing this discussion.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
No, Dave is playing this perfectly. The Out campaigns are having fits and fighting each other at the mere prospect of Farage being the one in the debate. Cameron showing indecision just means the rival Brexit gangs are fighting to put their guy in to try and get Cameron to accept. It's a car crash to watch.
Old 'Nige is the Remain's secret weapon
Remain is talking wars and dodging debating on the biggest debate in decades.
Struggling to see the perfection tbh.
Wrestlemania
Banned
He made a documentary which Ofcom ruled had had broken rules on "due impartiality on matters of major political and industrial controversy and major matters relating to current public policy", so that's why it's relevant to whether not not I'm going to watch his documentaries on anything.
http://www.desmog.uk/2015/08/11/revealed-inside-story-great-global-warming-swindle
Miles Quaritch
Member
What doors do you think will open and how will they be better for us than the doors that are closed?
Miles Quaritch
Member
Because the person in question employed manipulative tactics to try and make their snaky position/opinion seem more credible? Fool me once, shame on me, etc.
Listening to someone like this would be akin to going back to Andrew Wakefield and taking anything he says about the 'link' between MMR and autism seriously.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Who knows, the idiots running the campaigns are too busy talking about wars and the NHS collapsing unless we stop sending money.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Have you seen the politicians running the campaigns? 6 months ago Dave was saying he'd campaign to leave, now he reckons wars are going to break out if we do.
Can't believe anything any of these lot say.
then you haven't done any research
CBI
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35855869
IMF
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36024492
Bank of England
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36273448
OECD
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36148316
LSE think tank
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35842333
Open University
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32038254
But why waste time on predictions when you can use real fucking life:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35649100
Pretending it's unclear is the same sleazy tactic global warming deniers used when they claimed "science was divided" over the issue, which brings us to...
Because it shows his total inability to analyse data and to fall for conspiracy tales. Just like if someone's a racist it's a good idea not to trust their views on LGBT rights. Or why GAF locks threads on articles when it's found they authors are linked to InfoWars. You can't be that intellectually lazy to not see the link.
"THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, THEY'RE ALL THE SAME! STOP MAKING ME ACTUALLY LOOK INTO ANY OF THIS AND LET ME HAND WAVE IT AWAY!"
Carl2291
Member
Alternatively you could look at what happened the last time someone debated Farage over the EU on national TV, and the complete failure that was Nick Cleggs attempt to derail UKIP.No, Dave is playing this perfectly. The Out campaigns are having fits and fighting each other at the mere prospect of Farage being the one in the debate. Cameron showing indecision just means the rival Brexit gangs are fighting to put their guy in to try and get Cameron to accept. It's a car crash to watch.
Old 'Nige is the Remain's secret weapon
UKIP went on to win the European elections after those debates and Farage came off really, really well. The same is likely to happen if Cameron debates him head to head. This format gives Dave a chance to have a platform without anyone directly refuting whatever nonsense he is likely to spout.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
You don't remember when Farage went on TV and started talking about AIDS-migrants and it was all very gross?
This is a nice description of the mainstream media currently scare mongering the end of the world if people vote "leave" 24/7 for months in several media forms. Both sides are lying to further their view this "outrage" from one side to the other is lol
ultratruman
Banned
Tim Peake should get involved tbh, and drop the omnipresent 'british astronaut' moniker. He's a European astronaut with an English accent.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
The Ftse and markets rise and fall on much less uncertainty than a referendum of this size, it's just speculation either way by lots of people who know as much as anyone else. Putin farting at a bear in the woods would have a larger effect than what's happening now.
Reading the links the conclusions are all based on worst case scenario on no trade agreements and wto rules only. Can't see that happening, not even close.
They don't know as much as everyone else? They are much more qualified and many are international finance organisations who's job it is to accurately analyse macroeconomics.
Most of the time they give a range of answers from worst to best case to make sure they cover 95% of what they perceive as the likely outcomes, if you don't believe them that's fine but as I say, these organisations are far more qualified than most to make an accurate call on the effects of a Brexit on the economy.
I initially thought it was going to be a good old scrap and lots of fun...
But 2 things have killed it, One, the stay campaign is way ahead, 10 points is huge so looks like a easy victory for remain (the argument of 'no one likes change and uncertainly) was always going to be a winner
secondly the leave campaign as predicted can not stop the in-fighting, as Farage wants the limelight but he is the worst thing here... Boris has been strangely quiet and he should be everywhere, and that tells me he thinks it is lost and does not want to do to much damage in the run up to being the new leader of the Tories
But 2 things have killed it, One, the stay campaign is way ahead, 10 points is huge so looks like a easy victory for remain (the argument of 'no one likes change and uncertainly) was always going to be a winner
secondly the leave campaign as predicted can not stop the in-fighting, as Farage wants the limelight but he is the worst thing here... Boris has been strangely quiet and he should be everywhere, and that tells me he thinks it is lost and does not want to do to much damage in the run up to being the new leader of the Tories
What was that about "hand waving killing the discussion"?
So you didn't read them at all, did you? Claiming that they only cover worst-case scenarios is an outright fabrication. So either you read them and lied, or didn't read them and made up a lie to try and dismiss them. I don't think there's any analysis that gives a negative result that you'd accept. Post-rationalisation at its finest.
This singlehandedly made me pro remain. It glossed over a century of british history and reduced those events to mere economic ebbs and flows. I'm sorry but more is at stake here than making a few fat cats even fatter. The core brexit camp seems to have only two things on their mind. The regaining of power which they think is rightfully theirs and £. "Please let us be like the swiss with their unfettered free trade". Like neo liberalism hasn't done enough damage.
That's it for me now, I was undecided before but I know how i'll be voting come June. I'm done with the debate.
Phantast2k
Member
I think it is easy to say all this, I think it is bloody obvious that the UK will go into a decline for 5 years, just like after the financial crash! that is life, economies go up and down....
The thing nobody can predict is how the UK will be in 10 years when the economy has rebalanced (just like it is still trying to do after said financial crash)
I can't find an up to date figure on this. I see 10 point lead back in February.
The latest I see are 76% of Scotland wants to remain. Northern Ireland seems to want to stay as well depending if you poll nationalists or Unionists, Wales wants to stay because of farming subsidies.
I wonder if this will trigger other independence referendums in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales if they overwhelmingly vote to stay in and England votes to leave. I know Sinn Fein is jumping at the chance for another United Ireland referendum. They are pushing the idea of a hard EU border which EU will want and the UK want so they can watch there own borders. Then they will need to increase soldier presence and might cause more political tensions and I am sure Sinn Fein will fan those flames.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Everything you posted is prophesy based on the extreme outcome which is what both sides are dealing in.
It's useless.
I just posted direct evidence they're not. You're either lying or wilfully ignorant. Which is it? Why don't your posts contain any details about the analysis or data? Six different studies and a one sentence rejoinder is supposed to cover all of them? Does the "prophesy" [sic] line mean you're now trying to write off every single economic forecast ever done as no more than guesses so that you don't have to confront the evidence proving you're wrong?
Bananajama
Banned
We're already in recession - again - for the third time in 8 years.
Let's go for the recession high score!
We're already in recession - again - for the third time in 8 years.
Exactly, are people really that daft that they think being in EU is guaranteed growth... the country has still not recovered from the financial crash
CyclopsRock
Member
No we aren't? Growth in he last quarter was, I think, 0.6%.We're already in recession - again - for the third time in 8 years.
We are in an Industrial recession. The way services are heading it will be a full recession soon enough.
Frankfurter
Member
I.e. the UK is not in a recession.
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