Which is exactly my point. I'm not aware of any big company or bank going publicly with any kind of message for remain or leave, understandably so, but their analysis show quite a similar impact on the economy as the Treasury one. .
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Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
- Thread starter QuicheFontaine
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Which is exactly my point. I'm not aware of any big company or bank going publicly with any kind of message for remain or leave, understandably so, but their analysis show quite a similar impact on the economy as the Treasury one. .
But we don't know how bad the effects would be or how long they would last and if it may be better in the long term. It is all tied up with spin. Then you have the out campaign saying jack shit back. The leave campaign have screwed up big time, when it was them that had it all to prove.
anonymous_abc
Member
Looking at the list of endorsements for either side on Wikipedia is quite interesting.
Endorsements in the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016
Endorsements in the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016
Wrestlemania
Banned
Well at least I've learned from that list that the leave campaign has the endorsement of such luminaries as Liz Hurley, weighing in with a really well reasoned argument for leaving.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...exit-debate-as-she-shares-a-saucy-selfie.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...exit-debate-as-she-shares-a-saucy-selfie.html
ReplacementPelican
Member
You think they've screwed up because you're intelligent and need facts. Meanwhile, large sections of the British population were already scared/angered by immigrants and Brexit keeps piling 'Turkey! Muslims! Turkey!' on top of that. They may be running a shitty campaign but it's in line with their demos.
Should they do more? Yes. However, remember that the calling card of the right-wing is always 'well, I'm just saying what everyone thinks!' even though they really, really aren't so I can understand their ignorance on this.
And Branson the guy that avoids tax like the plague wants to stay.
I get why they have done it. Scaremongering is the easiest way of getting people to vote .
ReplacementPelican
Member
It's funny because people think it works both ways. I've seen pro-leave people angered by the 'fear-mongering' over economic difficulties, length of time to leave and weaker trade agreements. Meanwhile, the representatives of their side are incensing a xenophobic base with not-so-subtle fears of terrorism and Muslims despite Turkey being incredibly far from being able to join the EU and... well... us not being in Schengen means Syrian refugees (apparently the scariest of people for some reason) can't just walk across from Turkey.
Wrestlemania
Banned
I'm not sure what the relevance of someone avoiding tax is. Would Britain leaving have a big impact on his ability to do that?
Agree on the travel stuff, other than the mobile roaming charges I don't see what we'd lose if we left, but the exit camp are just as misleading over immigration and those membership fees. The EU will never sign a trade deal with the UK that includes a good deal on services (80% of our economy) and excludes free movement of people. There are probably some members who will oppose any kind of trade deal with us because us leaving will give them a great opportunity to take our jobs (especially in financial services and manufacturing that are already highly competitive). 48% of our exports are to the EU, any kind of tariff on any of those goods will give EU members an advantage over us that will (whether instantly or overtime, kill those markets in this country).
So we'll make a deal that includes free-movement of people, includes 'contributions to the EU budget' (eg membership fees), the only thing we won't have is any representation in Brussels.
I started on the fence of this referendum but more and more I realise by looking at the people who support brexit that immigration is a red herring, it's a sellable tool that masks what Brexit is really about, removing the protection on employment law, human rights, consumer rights and other mandates from the EU. The reason they won't talk about this is because they can't say what they want to do when those protections are removed. But you can read between the lines by looking at their backgrounds, they are all business owners who think the 'country' will be better if they can fire people when they like, hire people on whatever grounds they like, and release whatever products they like onto the market with minimal approval processes.
TLDR: Brexit is about making the rich richer at the expense of consumer and employee rights, even if all the financial projections are wrong and the UK economy does benefit, it won't be working class or even middle class people that benefit, all we'll get is less job security, less rights and ultimately less money in our pockets.
gutter_trash
Banned
the EU needs a Reboot. The one-size-fits-all mentality from Brussels of over-regulating everything does not work.
Again we have no idea. That is my whole point of voting stay. What I was saying is there are dodgy people on both sides. If people voted for the side who had the best people in it hardly anyone would vote.
Nicktendo86
Member
I would say you might have a point if it wasn't for the fact that the vast majority of big business leaders that have declared for a particular side have come out for remain. Besides, if the government did try to change the law and remove protections like that post brexit, we would at least be able to vote them out and elect a government that would champion those rights.
BTW, not sure if this has been posted but here is Harriet Harman, former acting leader of the labour party, unable to name the top 7 EU officials.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-awkward-moment-harriet-harman-8026228
anonymous_abc
Member
I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks the EU in it's current form is not in dire need of reform.
But what exactly are they over regulating in your opinion?
CharmingCharlie
Member
OK this makes absolutely zero sense. If what you are saying is true that Brexit is being done because rich people want to heavily oppress the down trodden man then surely the rich and big corp would be advocating and supporting Brexit. Yet from what we have seen rich people and big corp have all come out against us leaving Europe.
Unlessssssssssss it's a double bluff. Perhaps rich people and big corp do want us to leave Europe but they can't make it "too obvious" so they pretend to support staying in Europe but secretly they want us to leave Europe.
Look how about this, lets just accept that both sides are full of cunts. both sides have their connections to the rich and big business and neither side has your interests at heart and they are only doing this to further their own agenda (which will involve them getting rich at our expense).
I stick by my own view that we are fucked if we stay in and we are fucked if we leave. Ultimately I believe that sooner or later the UK will leave Europe. As this mess moves closer to federalisation our veto's and opt outs won't be worth the paper they are written on and we will eventually be forced out. It will be far better for the UK to leave NOW rather than meander on for another 10 -20 years and then attempt to leave.
Tony Blair has warned Labour voters not to fall for right-wing anti-European Union arguments.
The former Prime Minister said there was an "unholy alliance" of pro-Brexit campaigners who wanted to build a "completely different" kind of UK.
That vision included stripping back workers' rights and the social security system, he said.
He also hit out at what he described as proposals to turn the UK into a "free market offshore" trading power for the rest of the world.
The former Labour leader also said that the Remain campaign has so far been "strong and effective".
http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/14...bour_voters_against_right_wing_anti_EU_drive/
Just as the remain thought they had it on lock...
The former Prime Minister said there was an "unholy alliance" of pro-Brexit campaigners who wanted to build a "completely different" kind of UK.
That vision included stripping back workers' rights and the social security system, he said.
He also hit out at what he described as proposals to turn the UK into a "free market offshore" trading power for the rest of the world.
The former Labour leader also said that the Remain campaign has so far been "strong and effective".
http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/14...bour_voters_against_right_wing_anti_EU_drive/
Just as the remain thought they had it on lock...
QuicheFontaine
Member
Sorry to just crop out this bit from the rest of your post, but this is definitely one of my pet peeves - the conflation of "Europe" and "the EU".
We're not leaving Europe. We're always going to be in Europe. And there are plenty of countries in Europe that aren't in the EU.
Now I know what you meant in your post and I'm sure you weren't doing this, but I can't shake the feeling that this is done as a deliberate tactic by some people to reinforce an association that if we want to get on well with our European neighbours, trade, etc. we must be in the EU. And also the idea that if you are anti-EU, you must also, by extension, be anti-Europe and against other Europeans. Frankly it ticks me off.
Edit:
The kiss of death :-O
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't understand why Blair makes public interventions any more. It should be staggeringly obvious to him that more people are inclined to do the exact opposite of what he says than anything else.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
The only people who like him are a small group of politicos. People like Gordon Brown more than him!
Hopefully after Chilcot comes out he might stop.
It will hit tourism going in and out of the country. You are going to require a travel visa if you want to travel to the EU and EU citizens will require one for the UK. The days will be gone where you can decide to France in the morning and be there the later that same day. Depending on how strict the rules are it could take 6 weeks to get a Visa if we follow the US model. I am also sure EU officials will be slow in processing and make things difficult for a few years.
Then you will have to stand in the line for non EU citizens at the airport and get your passport checked.
The leave campaign is also saying there will be no EU border in Northern Ireland but if you want to protect and control your borders it will require one. It will be a back door into the UK. Lots of this emigrants want to get to the UK will go to Ireland and simply walk into the UK. The EU won't stop them from doing that.
CharmingCharlie
Member
Naturally I mean by leaving Europe I mean leaving the EU. I didn't realise this was a bone of contention with anyone. I mean I never suggested for a minute we intensify fracking to level 11 and separate from the Earths crust and move the whole country a bit further west
Though thinking about it I wouldn't mind a referendum on it.I personally do not think the UK is part of Europe (which is one of the main problems), so when I say "we should leave Europe" I mean leave the EU because to me EU and Europe are one and the same thing. I don't even know why we would still be considered part of Europe if we leave the EU. What actually makes the UK part of Europe (not counting the EU) ? I mean we are not even connected to the mainland.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Visa's shouldn't be an issue really, my Australia visa last year took 24 hours.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Naturally I mean by leaving Europe I mean leaving the EU. I didn't realise this was a bone of contention with anyone. I mean I never suggested for a minute we intensify fracking to level 11 and separate from the Earths crust and move the whole country a bit further west
Anyone remember Noah's Island? First thing I thought of...
Well, I mean there's a tunnel...
I dunno, most of the time I don't really "feel European" (whatever that means), but I do appreciate that we have a long and entwined history with the continent. Usually being invaded, but still...
Edit:
That queue is often shorter
Seriously though, even if a visa is required I think you're being a bit pessimistic there. New UK passports are biometric and compatible with the automatic reader machines at modern EU airports.
As for a visa taking 6 weeks, I'm sorry but that's just laughable. You can get an e-visa for India online and without sending your passport off somewhere or waiting in any lines, it takes 3 business days max. I'm sure an EU/Schengen visa would be quicker.
Also many non-EU countries let you get a tourist visa on arrival (e.g. Turkey), so with this arrangement you could even do your hypothetical "I think I'll go to France today" trip.
As I said I was going by the US standard not Australia's. It's one of those things that will be negotiated. T will most likely be the same as they will have to try to keep things mostly the same.
That queue is often shorter
Seriously though, even if a visa is required I think you're being a bit pessimistic there. New UK passports are biometric and compatible with the automatic reader machines at modern EU airports.
As for a visa taking 6 weeks, I'm sorry but that's just laughable. You can get an e-visa for India online and without sending your passport off somewhere or waiting in any lines, it takes 3 business days max. I'm sure an EU/Schengen visa would be quicker.
Also many non-EU countries let you get a tourist visa on arrival (e.g. Turkey), so with this arrangement you could even do your hypothetical "I think I'll go to France today" trip.
The queue maybe shorter but I never had to stop to get it checked. I just hold up the passport and be let through.
I Googled the US policy and it's 6 weeks during peak season during the summer and 3 during the winter. You are also expecting EU won't try and cause problems to drag out the process. I was trying to avoid some of the commonwealth countries in my examples like Australia and India as I am sure they have their own agreements to make the process easier.
Turkey can take up to two weeks depending on the consulate that they need to send the application.
Naturally I mean by leaving Europe I mean leaving the EU. I didn't realise this was a bone of contention with anyone. I mean I never suggested for a minute we intensify fracking to level 11 and separate from the Earths crust and move the whole country a bit further west
I personally do not think the UK is part of Europe (which is one of the main problems), so when I say "we should leave Europe" I mean leave the EU because to me EU and Europe are one and the same thing. I don't even know why we would still be considered part of Europe if we leave the EU. What actually makes the UK part of Europe (not counting the EU) ? I mean we are not even connected to the mainland.
like world geography dude.
Naturally I mean by leaving Europe I mean leaving the EU. I didn't realise this was a bone of contention with anyone. I mean I never suggested for a minute we intensify fracking to level 11 and separate from the Earths crust and move the whole country a bit further west
I personally do not think the UK is part of Europe (which is one of the main problems), so when I say "we should leave Europe" I mean leave the EU because to me EU and Europe are one and the same thing. I don't even know why we would still be considered part of Europe if we leave the EU. What actually makes the UK part of Europe (not counting the EU) ? I mean we are not even connected to the mainland.
Same reason Japan is part of Asia. Not big enough to be considered its own region, so its part of the one its a few dozen miles off the coast of.
gutter_trash
Banned
agricultural, fishing.
the EU tells one country ''you can't sell lemons and oranges because this other country produces and sells lemons and oranges'' and garbage like that
what if you selling lemons and oranges negatively effects the other country selling lemons and oranges because they dont have any other strong industries?
It also provides 55% of farmers income in the UK through the common agricultural policy, which Brexit campaigners say they would replicate but all independent bodies have concluded almost certainly wouldn't be funded to the same level as it is now.
First Blair, now this.... If 5ive can't make you get down, who will want to leave? it's all equal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...gham-but-alesha-dixon-is-still-set-to-perform
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...gham-but-alesha-dixon-is-still-set-to-perform
ClosingADoor
Member
Plenty of countries don't need a visa to travel to others. For example, from the Netherlands, you don't need a visa to go to the US. You do need one of those ESTA thingies, but that is valid for 5 years or so after you have done it once. Can be done up to 72 hours before travels.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Farage: Sorry about that, a couple of gremlins in the system, there. Ghosts in the machine. Perhaps a metaphor for, er. Good evening! I might as well say this now 5ive has pulled out.[Groans ripple around the audience.]
Farage: So if anyone wants to leave, nows the time.[Farage glances nervously around the room. Two men get up and leave.]
Farage: [As the two men close the door behind them] Amazing. Absolutely amazing.
QuicheFontaine
Member
?? For the US you just need an ESTA.
Seriously, I'm going to the US this Saturday and I did my ESTA online last week. It was approved immediately on payment. I have no idea where you're getting this six weeks from.
Edit: Whoops, DP.
Edit2: And two weeks for Turkey? That's not true, you can get a visa on arrival! Where are you getting this info?
No, they also got Alesha Dixon, E17 and Sister Sledge, hell of a line up.
I know some of the "leave" crowd want to return Britain to the good old days, but I'm not sure mid-90s pop is something I want to relive
QuicheFontaine
Member
Maybe they thought Farage had formed a boyband with BoJo?
like world geography dude.
TBH "middle east" is still Asia for geography
anonymous_abc
Member
If anything fishery isn't regulated enough. The seas are in an awful state...
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That map also excludes the European part of Kazakhstan.
anonymous_abc
Member
I'm sure we can all agree the map is not ideal. But to think the UK might somehow not belong to Europe is kinda amusing...That map also excludes the European part of Kazakhstan.
ClosingADoor
Member
Which countries are being banned from selling lemons and oranges? I have never heard about this.
Fishing is regulated because one country fishing too much will impact the whole region. Over fishing is a serious problem and should be regulated to prevent one country from fishing all the waters empty.
Big banks and scary companies like the Open University?
let's be honest, you're not even going to attempt to look at the economic analysis. You're going to download any of the free datasets and do a cursory stats analysis? It's just an excuse for you to avoid the multitude of proof so you can keep your beliefs unchallenged.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I chucked them out this morning, but thanks to recycling they aren't covered in baked beans or anything. I'll see if I can root them out. There's one particularly bad one that is worth posting for the lulz alone (I think it is purely a local one).
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