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Buffy the Vampire Slayer turns 20

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Edward never raped Bella
The problem is that he did that after an already incredibly abusive relationship and before he got his soul back. If you ascribe to the belief that Angel (soul) wasn't responsible for his actions as Angelus (no soul), then Spike is absolved of that crime.

That said, I also think they're a bad couple. It was born out of convenience, and Spike admitting Buffy doesn't actually love him (coupled with a sacrificial explosion) was a big moment.

In another sense, Spike doesn't know how to have a relationship with a woman who isn't in control and the dominant part of the relationship.
 

Media

Member
Edward never raped Bella

Spike didn't rape Buffy? Yeah there was the attempt but after a year of fighting/fucking and him being soulless he cracked.

And then went to get a soul to punish himself.

Sorry I intensely hate the Twilight relationship and the horror that it spawned in the Shades series, nothing is worse than that.

Edit: what he said ^___

Buffy abused the shit out of Spike, and he broke. I wish they hasn't pushed it that far cause fuck that was rough but he redeemed himself by actively seeking his soul.
 
You know buffy and angel were truly unique experiences for me. They didnt have the wb channel where i was so the shows would come on cbs at 2:30am right after i came home from work and never had any next ep preview.
 
Is anybody else doing a series rewatch for the 20th anniversary? Just finished S4E04. It's only been a few years since I've watched it but I love it too much.
 
2: Innocence.
The great heel-turn in TV history. The most exceptional genre busting, rocket launching climax of TV. If Buffy is a feminist high-point, this is the episode that cemented that.
Bit late of a reply, but this episode is the opposite of a feminist high point. Is a big "fuck you, you did bad, now be punished!" for Buffy expressing herself sexually. Something the series does several times throughout.
 
Man S4 is such a drag. It takes so long to get going and even when it does it's not the shows best. A couple of standouts but the main plot is bad. Also Willow's appearance and attractiveness increase in the span of one summer from S3 is astronomical.
 

eot

Banned
I started season 3 now and I have to say that S2 was a lot better than the first, there's more connecting the episodes and also some actual character development. Billy Idol was an entertaining villain too.
 

Media

Member
I started season 3 now and I have to say that S2 was a lot better than the first, there's more connecting the episodes and also some actual character development. Billy Idol was an entertaining villain too.

Actually, Billy Idol stole his look from ..nevermind.
 

dude

dude
Bit late of a reply, but this episode is the opposite of a feminist high point. Is a big "fuck you, you did bad, now be punished!" for Buffy expressing herself sexually. Something the series does several times throughout.
I disagree completely. No finger has been pointed at Buffy by anyone about this throughout the episode or series. There is the scene with Giles and Buffy that perfectly illustrate that this is not a "you did bad" thing.
 

The Wart

Member
Bit late of a reply, but this episode is the opposite of a feminist high point. Is a big "fuck you, you did bad, now be punished!" for Buffy expressing herself sexually. Something the series does several times throughout.

Yeah not seeing this at all. Bad things happening to someone is not the same as punishment. Nothing in the show suggests that Buffy did anything wrong and Whedon has Giles straight up say that she didn't. If anyone gets blamed it's Jenny Calendar.

I really can't think of an instance where Whedon uses tragedy to punish; he does tragedy to push characters to their breaking points and force them to grow. It can get rather contrived honestly.

Buffy received a far worse result.

Didn't Angel get sent to (a) hell (dimension) and was suicidal for a good half season after he came back? And in any case the whole point of S2 is that Angelus thought he could break her and instead she kicked his ass.
 

eot

Banned
Actually, Billy Idol stole his look from ..nevermind.
Haha :p
I like Billy Idol and Spike both. He's probably my favourite character on the show so far.

I have to say though, all the clowning that goes on about Buffy's looks/makeup/hair, mostly from Cordelia, but also from herself is pretty ridiculous when she always looks like she stepped off a photo shoot. I know this is TV but still.
 
man, I've just watched episode 03x18 and I have to say that it's probably the worst take on suicide I've ever saw. really strong, solid, hot garbage.
I don't know why season 3 is so liked, to me it's a huge step back compared to the first twos.
 
man, I've just watched episode 03x18 and I have to say that it's probably the worst take on suicide I've ever saw. really strong, solid, hot garbage.
I don't know why season 3 is so liked, to me it's a huge step back compared to the first twos.
Because S3 is significantly more consistent in it's quality. Bringing Faith, Trick, and the Mayor is great. Angel actually has a degree of agency. Plus most of the more highly praised episodes take place in S3 ("Graduation Day", "The Prom", "Amends", "Faith, Hope, and Trick", "Homecoming", "Helpless", "Band Candy", "Lovers Walk", "The Wish", "Doppelgangland"). I can safely say it doesn't have a single episode I dislike ("Anne" is the closest, but that's only because too much time is spent with the rest of the Scoobies).

And "Earshot", while maybe not the greatest anti-suicide PSA (if it really was one at all), wasn't really about suicide. It was to hit home that people have problems that they deal with, and you can't expect people to just help you out and give all of their attention to you. You have to ask for help. The entire time, they aren't looking to prevent a suicide, but a mass murder (which turned out to be a psycho lunchlady). It's about needing to talk to people if you need something, and not to just expect them to give you what you want. You see that in the B-plot with Angel and Buffy, wherein Buffy expects Angel to tell her things she wants to know about (specifically how he felt regarding his "betrayal" with Faith in the previous episode, as Buffy was still shaken by it) when she could just ask.

The episode also has some of the funniest moments in the series. Buffy's mind-reading and Willow's interviews are gold.
 
Because S3 is significantly more consistent in it's quality. Bringing Faith, Trick, and the Mayor is great. Angel actually has a degree of agency. Plus most of the more highly praised episodes take place in S3 ("Graduation Day", "The Prom", "Amends", "Faith, Hope, and Trick", "Homecoming", "Helpless", "Band Candy", "Lovers Walk", "The Wish", "Doppelgangland"). I can safely say it doesn't have a single episode I dislike ("Anne" is the closest, but that's only because too much time is spent with the rest of the Scoobies).

And "Earshot", while maybe not the greatest anti-suicide PSA (if it really was one at all), wasn't really about suicide. It was to hit home that people have problems that they deal with, and you can't expect people to just help you out and give all of their attention to you. You have to ask for help. The entire time, they aren't looking to prevent a suicide, but a mass murder (which turned out to be a psycho lunchlady). It's about needing to talk to people if you need something, and not to just expect them to give you what you want. You see that in the B-plot with Angel and Buffy, wherein Buffy expects Angel to tell her things she wants to know about (specifically how he felt regarding his "betrayal" with Faith in the previous episode, as Buffy was still shaken by it) when she could just ask.

The episode also has some of the funniest moments in the series. Buffy's mind-reading and Willow's interviews are gold.
Yes, the episode isn't really about sucide and this make that ending even worse in my opinion. It felt totally unnecessary.
I didn't expect from Buffy the vampire slayer to pull the "you are not the only one with problems, grow a thicker skin, ecc." bullshit. It was really dumb and a little bit insulting. Not a big deal of course but whoever wrote that had no idea what he was talking about.
Suicidal people should talk to others before committing suicide? Yeah, no shit, we really didn't need this tv series to know this.
Also, at the end of the episode, Buffy told the dude she had no idea who he was and honestly didn't care much, and after that she made fun of his short height with Giles. But hey, he didn't kill himself, so I guess that's ok.
Like I said, not a big deal and not the first episode I didn't like, but it just came as a surprise. I was not expecting shit like this.
 
Yes, the episode isn't really about sucide and this make that ending even worse in my opinion. It felt totally unnecessary.
I didn't expect from Buffy the vampire slayer to pull the "you are not the only one with problems, grow a thicker skin, ecc." bullshit. It was really dumb and a little bit insulting. Not a big deal of course but whoever wrote that had no idea what he was talking about.
Suicidal people should talk to others before committing suicide? Yeah, no shit, we really didn't need this tv series to know this.
Also, at the end of the episode, Buffy told the dude she had no idea who he was and honestly didn't care much, and after that she made fun of his short height with Giles. But hey, he didn't kill himself, so I guess that's ok.
Like I said, not a big deal and not the first episode I didn't like, but it just came as a surprise. I was not expecting shit like this.
Again, it wasn't about suicide. When Buffy spoke to him, she thought he was a mass murderer. The suicide was a twist. A cheap twist, no doubt, but a twist. I'm not disagreeing with it being insensitive or insulting as far as dealing with suicidal people, but it's really just used as a twist and the ultimate point being that if you have issues, find someone to talk to, because someone out there will listen. It's not about getting a thicker skin, just that people have their own issues, so don't people to just give their attention to you. Speak up and ask them. Talk to them.
 

eot

Banned
I just started S4E20 and it goes:
"Previously on... Angel!"
Then it shows Angel with Faith, smacking Buffy. Wtf, am I supposed to watch that show concurrently?

Also, as far as shitty episodes of TV series go, "Beer Bad" wasn't all that bad.
 
I just started S4E20 and it goes:
"Previously on... Angel!"
Then it shows Angel with Faith, smacking Buffy. Wtf, am I supposed to watch that show concurrently?

Also, as far as shitty episodes of TV series go, "Beer Bad" wasn't all that bad.

Season 4 of Buffy is when Angel season 1 began. There are a few crossover episodes in those respective seasons, but after that, there's not really any more.
 

eot

Banned
Ok then.

Is Angel any good?

Also, I have to say, Riley is boring and Tara creeps me out :mad: especially with her flaking out of that spell, still waiting for the other shoe to drop with regards to that.

So far though no relationships in this series have lasted much more than one season, so there's still hope.
 

Melon Husk

Member
S1 is underrated. Maybe it's because I watched while feverish, but it's the most dreamlike season and the least grounded on reality. It got kinda dark in later seasons and while the overall quality stepped up it was kinda sad they never went back. Season 2 is really forgettable without highlights. It introduced cool new characters apart from the villain who sucked.

Ok then.

Is Angel any good?

Also, I have to say, Riley is boring and Tara creeps me out :mad: especially with her flaking out of that spell, still waiting for the other shoe to drop with regards to that.

So far though no relationships in this series have lasted much more than one season, so there's still hope.

Well, the opening theme alone is as iconic as Buffy's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpAol_17mO0
 

Slaythe

Member
Ok then.

Is Angel any good?

Also, I have to say, Riley is boring and Tara creeps me out :mad: especially with her flaking out of that spell, still waiting for the other shoe to drop with regards to that.

So far though no relationships in this series have lasted much more than one season, so there's still hope.

Angel is a fantastic show. It took a bit of time to find its thing but it wasn't bad even when it was searching for it.

It kept getting better and better, there's been a few mistakes but they usually made up for all of them eventually.

You're gonna enjoy yourself a lot, it has great characters, better settings, cool songs, cool writing, especially coming off that garbage season that is season 4 of Buffy.
 

Kinsei

Banned
Ok then.

Is Angel any good?

Also, I have to say, Riley is boring and Tara creeps me out :mad: especially with her flaking out of that spell, still waiting for the other shoe to drop with regards to that.

So far though no relationships in this series have lasted much more than one season, so there's still hope.

Angel is great. Season 5 is some of the best television has to offer.

Riley is definitely captain cardboard. Tara is great.
 

eot

Banned
S1 is underrated. Maybe it's because I watched while feverish, but it's the most dreamlike season and the least grounded on reality. It got kinda dark in later seasons and while the overall quality stepped up it was kinda sad they never went back. Season 2 is really forgettable without highlights. It introduced cool new characters apart from the villain who sucked.

Well, the opening theme alone is as iconic as Buffy's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpAol_17mO0

Man, that was not the song I expected. I heard that song ages ago in a CS movie, had no idea it was from this show. Ep. 1 was pretty good.

On the flip side, the last episode of S4 of Buffy was a bore. I don't mind dream sequences, or trippy stuff, but nothing happens in that episode until they get to Buffy's dream. Worse, it becomes evident early on that nothing is going to happen. What a weird way to end a season.
 

Famassu

Member
S1 is underrated. Maybe it's because I watched while feverish, but it's the most dreamlike season and the least grounded on reality. It got kinda dark in later seasons and while the overall quality stepped up it was kinda sad they never went back. Season 2 is really forgettable without highlights. It introduced cool new characters apart from the villain who sucked.



Well, the opening theme alone is as iconic as Buffy's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpAol_17mO0
Season 2 forgettable with no highlights wut? The whole Angelus storyline & its conclusion is fucking gold.
 

Media

Member
Man, that was not the song I expected. I heard that song ages ago in a CS movie, had no idea it was from this show. Ep. 1 was pretty good.

On the flip side, the last episode of S4 of Buffy was a bore. I don't mind dream sequences, or trippy stuff, but nothing happens in that episode until they get to Buffy's dream. Worse, it becomes evident early on that nothing is going to happen. What a weird way to end a season.

Restless was amazing because it foreshadowed pretty much everything. It's not just a dream sequence.
 

eot

Banned
Really? Okay. I'll have to keep an eye open then, maybe rewatch it. A lot of it seemed nonsensical though.
 

Slaythe

Member
Watching season 2 right now, it's great.

Actually having a problem watching Buffy now

Have you reached "Are you now or have you ever been ?" yet ? :D

It's a great season despite whatever that other guy thought.

Also, can't blame you for Buffy. The show changed a lot after season 3. Angel kept what I loved about those seasons and expanded upon it. Buffy just did something else. Wasn't bad though but yeah, to me Angel was on another level.
 

eot

Banned
Angel is alright actually, even though I find it a bit strange to kill of one of the new characters so soon just to bring back an old one (makes sense for ratings maybe). Also, I found the episode where they turn back time more affecting than I was prepared for. Buffy's emotional scenes usually don't do much for me. It is a bit silly though to introduce not one, but two ways for Angel to have a normal life in the same season and then have him reject them both. That ring he wore was the worst one, don't even introduce that shit if you know you'll have to write it out somehow. It was very Star Trek.
 

eot

Banned
So, I don't get it. In the last ep. of the first season of Angel they figure out that he's going to turn human at some point, and he seems happy about it. But he already turned human and gave it up. What's the deal?
 

Dunlop

Member
So, I don't get it. In the last ep. of the first season of Angel they figure out that he's going to turn human at some point, and he seems happy about it. But he already turned human and gave it up. What's the deal?
He wouldn't need to be a champion so could live a normal human life.

Just finished my rewatch of Angel, I forgot how bad season 5 was
 

Media

Member
So, I don't get it. In the last ep. of the first season of Angel they figure out that he's going to turn human at some point, and he seems happy about it. But he already turned human and gave it up. What's the deal?

Because he didn't 'earn' it so it wouldn't count.

They address this attitude later, no worries.
 

DBT85

Member
Just finished my rewatch of Angel, I forgot how bad season 5 was

Wait wait wait wait wait.

What?

giphy.gif
 

Pilgrimzero

Member
BTW played the new Board Game. Pretty cool. Only tried the beginner set up and it was super easy until The Master popped up. Came down to one play to win/lose.

Just based on that one play I think I would play it again with the hard difficulty rules.
 
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