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[Media]

Holy shit at that essay...

While I am constantly impressed by Restless, and just how much of the series is foreshadowed in that episode, I'm also a bit skeptical that some of these things were planned or just put together to resemble what was said after the fact.

For example: The death of Buffy. Joss never had firm plans to end the series on her death AND only wrote the Season 5 finale the way he did because he was in rapidly degrading negotiations with The WB.

Makes me think the "death is your gift" stuff was them circling around and figuring it out later, rather than epic foreshadowing.

Now all of the Dawn stuff with the Faith dream sequences? That shit I believe.

I honestly think the Randy suit from Tabula Rasa was just them pulling shit from Restless, so I am there with you It was the SAME FUCKING SUIT. There is not way they could have planned that for two years. I do think the 'slayers came from demons', Spike's redemption, etc, were planned though

Also, death is your gift was from interventions just a few episodes before the Gift, so I'm sure that was planned.


Edit: should have made this it's own thread since no one's going to see it lol

 

[Sheroking]

I've out some thought into it and I guess I'll give my top-10 here.

HM: The Body.
It doesn't make my list, not because it isn't a terrific episode of TV, but because it's essentially the non-Buffy episode of Buffy. It intentionally doesn't deal in what Buffy is and that makes it stand out, but it also doesn't encapsulate what I love about the series. On merit it is easily one of the best episodes, which is why I'm mentioning it without including it on my list


10: Prophecy Girl
Season 1 is generally very rough, but it's finale is maybe the strongest performance of Sarah Michelle Gellar's career. Buffy breaking down when she learns it's her destiny to die, as we're reminded this is a 16 year old girl with all of this heaped onto her, breaks my heart every time. This is the episode Buffy became Buffy

9: Conversations with Dead People.
Season 7's best episode IMO. A strong bottle-episode featuring three conversations between dead characters and living characters, although two of the conversations are deceptive. It serves as a creepy re-introduction to the last big bad and has a terrific performance from guest star Azure Sky

8: Passion
David Boreanaz's narration here is a bit on the corny side, but the idea of this former-hero/now-villain taking an almost sexual pleasure from the grief caused by his murders really lands and raises the stakes higher than they ever were before. This is the episode where Buffy let it be known that it would kill major characters, at a time where that wasn't the norm for network TV. The Angelus arc in Season 2 of Buffy is probably the most fully realized in all of the Buffyverse and this is one of the biggest episodes.

7: The Gift
Though I'm not the type of guy who believes that bittersweet endings are always better than happy ones, and I certainly don't believe Buffy would be better if she died at the end, this episode is all-around very strong and could have served as a great series finale. Buffy/Glory's final confrontation was excellent, it had many great character beats - including Giles murdering Ben and Spike and Buffy's excellent stairway conversation, but it's the emotional final shot that gets me every time. She saved the world. A lot.

6: Graduation Day
What is it about Torrence High School that makes the graduation episodes shot there so terrific? This one perfectly captures the feeling of renewal and the energy of graduating, and it's an excellent ending for not only one of the franchises best villains, but the high school era of Buffy.

5: Hush
Easily one of the most well-executed episodes in Buffy's history. Creepy, funny, great effects and good mythology. If you haven't seen this episode: see this episode.

4: Restless.
The most brilliantly stylish and unique episode of Buffy. Joss loves him some metaphors and this episode is chalk full of them. Epic foreshadowing and referential humor make a finale that could have felt like an afterthought into the highlight of it's season.

3: Becoming Pt.2
This episode has it all: The first ever Buffy-Spike team-up. The big confrontation between Buffy and Angel. A strong beginning involving being framed for murder, Buffy being outed as the slayer and an ending that involved the series' most powerful non-OMWF musical moment.

2: Innocence.
The great heel-turn in TV history. The most exceptional genre busting, rocket launching climax of TV. If Buffy is a feminist high-point, this is the episode that cemented that.

1: Once More With Feeling
It's one of the best episodes of any TV show ever. Fantastically shot, beautifully written with near-Broadway quality music and more character development than any other two episodes of Buffy ever. This is the musical episode that all other musical episodes answer to.

 

[Media]

I've out some thought into it and I guess I'll give my top-10 here.

HM: The Body.
It doesn't make my list, not because it isn't a terrific episode of TV, but because it's essentially the non-Buffy episode of Buffy. It intentionally doesn't deal in what Buffy is and that makes it stand out, but it also doesn't encapsulate what I love about the series. On merit it is easily one of the best episodes, which is why I'm mentioning it without including it on my list


10: Prophecy Girl
Season 1 is generally very rough, but it's finale is maybe the strongest performance of Sarah Michelle Gellar's career. Buffy breaking down when she learns it's her destiny to die, as we're reminded this is a 16 year old girl with all of this heaped onto her, breaks my heart every time. This is the episode Buffy became Buffy

9: Conversations with Dead People.
Season 7's best episode IMO. A strong bottle-episode featuring three conversations between dead characters and living characters, although two of the conversations are deceptive. It serves as a creepy re-introduction to the last big bad and has a terrific performance from guest star Azure Sky

8: Passion
David Boreanaz's narration here is a bit on the corny side, but the idea of this former-hero/now-villain taking an almost sexual pleasure from the grief caused by his murders really lands and raises the stakes higher than they ever were before. This is the episode where Buffy let it be known that it would kill major characters, at a time where that wasn't the norm for network TV. The Angelus arc in Season 2 of Buffy is probably the most fully realized in all of the Buffyverse and this is one of the biggest episodes.

7: The Gift
Though I'm not the type of guy who believes that bittersweet endings are always better than happy ones, and I certainly don't believe Buffy would be better if she died at the end, this episode is all-around very strong and could have served as a great series finale. Buffy/Glory's final confrontation was excellent, it had many great character beats - including Giles murdering Ben and Spike and Buffy's excellent stairway conversation, but it's the emotional final shot that gets me every time. She saved the world. A lot.

6: Graduation Day
What is it about Torrence High School that makes the graduation episodes shot there so terrific? This one perfectly captures the feeling of renewal and the energy of graduating, and it's an excellent ending for not only one of the franchises best villains, but the high school era of Buffy.

5: Hush
Easily one of the most well-executed episodes in Buffy's history. Creepy, funny, great effects and good mythology. If you haven't seen this episode: see this episode.

4: Restless.
The most brilliantly stylish and unique episode of Buffy. Joss loves him some metaphors and this episode combined brilliant weirdness, epic foreshadowing and referential heaven.

3: Becoming Pt.2
This episode has it all: The first ever Buffy-Spike team-up. The big confrontation between Buffy and Angel. A strong beginning involving being framed for murder, Buffy being outed as the slayer and an ending that involved the series' most powerful non-OMWF musical moment.

2: Innocence.
The great heel-turn in TV history. The most exceptional genre busting, rocket launching climax of TV. If Buffy is a feminist high-point, this is the episode that cemented that.

1: Once More With Feeling
It's one of the best episodes of any TV show ever. Fantastically shot, beautifully written with near-Broadway quality music and more character development than any other two episodes of Buffy ever. This is the musical episode that all other musical episodes answer to.

I'd switch Innocence with Intervention and Conversations with Dead People with Lies My Parents Told Me or Storyteller, but yeah, agree with everything else.

 

[AoM]

Edit: should have made this it's own thread since no one's going to see it lol

Feel free to switch that and this post.

 

[Sheroking]

I'd switch Innocence with Intervention and Conversations with Dead People with Lies My Parents Told Me or Storyteller, but yeah, agree with everything else.

I'm not a terribly big fan of Lies My Parents Told Me, if only because I find Giles' position weird and Wood overall unsympathetic.

Giles believes Buffy can't see the big picture through her own emotion. She thinks she needs to let Spike go because he's a risk to the wannabes. Except Spike is the second best fighter they have and, at that point, worth like 5 of the potentials. Even as a cold, detached general, the risk/reward is in favor of keeping Spike around.

Wood, meanwhile, compromises everything to settle a grudge he logically must know can not be settled. As Spike has his soul, the demon who killed his mother was not around. If I had been put in a position to feel sympathetic for Wood, that whole thing would have landed harder, but as it is I cheered happily as Spike beat his ass down.

Also, it occurs to me that 5 of my top-10 episodes were finales and Chosen was pretty close to making the list as well. Was Buffy the best show ever with at pulling off season finales?

 

[Media]

I'm not a terribly big fan of Lies My Parents Told Me, if only because I find Giles' position weird and Wood overall unsympathetic.

Giles believes Buffy can't see the big picture through her own emotion. She thinks she needs to let Spike go because he's a risk to the wannabes. Except Spike is the second best fighter they have and, at that point, worth like 5 of the potentials. Even as a cold, detached general, the risk/reward is in favor of keeping Spike around.

Wood, meanwhile, compromises everything to settle a grudge he logically must know can not be settled. As Spike has his soul, the demon who killed his mother was not around. If I had been put in a position to feel sympathetic for Wood, that whole thing would have landed harder, but as it is I cheered happily as Spike beat his ass down.

Also, it occurs to me that 5 of my top-10 episodes were finales and Chosen was pretty close to making the list as well. Was Buffy the best show ever with at pulling off season finales?

I felt a bit for Wood because the actor was so fucking fantastic. But otherwise yeah, I clapped with glee when Spike beat the shit out of him.

I liked it more for the Spike back story and Nikki back story.

And yes Buffy finales were the best. Epic with not much in the way of gut wrenching cliffhangers.

 

[Sheroking]

I felt a bit for Wood because the actor was so fucking fantastic. But otherwise yeah, I clapped with glee when Spike beat the shit out of him.
.

D.B Woodside is terrific on Lucifer as well.

 

[Media]

Feel free to switch that and this post.

Gaffers is going to tear me apart lol. Done >.<

 

[SomTervo]

One of the greatest shows of all time.

Watched it with my gf who had never seen it over November to January.

Her mind was blown and she mourned when it finished. Just incredible.

 

[rickyson1]

"Beer Bad" is literally the worst hour of television I have ever seen

bit of a random observation but it's the first thing that always comes to mind for me whenever I see anything about that show

 

[Sheroking]

"Beer Bad" is literally the worst hour of television I have ever seen

bit of a random observation but it's the first thing that always comes to mind for me whenever I see anything about that show

Beer Bad is indeed atrocious.

If I were to do a ranking of all 144, it would be 143/144 ahead of only "Normal Again", which is horrible in an entirely different sense.

 

[Media]

Just so you guys know I did post the essay in a separate thread if you all are interested:

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1352902

Beer Bad is a skip on every rewatch. It's has some funny, but like Go Fish, just not worth it.

 

[BTails]

Why does every Buffy thread devolve into a bashing of the Emmy-Nominated "Beer Bad"?

...I actually like the episode. It's not a particularly great one, but I always end up defending it just because I don't think it deserves the hate that it seems to get.

 

[Media]

Why does every Buffy thread devolve into a bashing of the Emmy-Nominated "Beer Bad"?

...I actually like the episode. It's not a particularly great one, but I always end up defending it just because I don't think it deserves the hate that it seems to get.

I thought it was too heavy handed on the 'college drinking is bad umkay' thing. Cave Buffy wasn't fun, but drunk Buffy was (as she was in Life Serial). I don't hate it through most (that goes to Where the Wild Things Are) but I do dislike it.

 

[AoM]

Also, it occurs to me that 5 of my top-10 episodes were finales and Chosen was pretty close to making the list as well. Was Buffy the best show ever with at pulling off season finales?

The only other show I can think of is Lost (every season finale was at least twice the length of a regular episode; the same reason why "Becoming" and "Graduation Day" are my two favorite Buffy finales - they had time to breathe). And for Buffy, every finale had weight because, besides "Restless", where they knew they were renewed (and "Chosen" of course), each was treated as if it could be a series finale.

 

[Lothar]

Beer Bad is indeed atrocious.

If I were to do a ranking of all 144, it would be 143/144 ahead of only "Normal Again", which is horrible in an entirely different sense.

I said earlier that I couldn't come up with a best episode. I was wrong, I forgot, "Normal Again" is the best episode.

 

[Vixdean]

I haven't seen "The Zeppo" mentioned much, but it's one of my favorite episodes. If you don't remember, it focused on Xander thwarting some resurrected jocks from blowing up the school while Buffy and co. are battling an armageddon demon.

 

[Lender]

I haven't seen "The Zeppo" mentioned much, but it's one of my favorite episodes. If you don't remember, it focused on Xander thwarting some resurrected jocks from blowing up the school while Buffy and co. are battling an armageddon demon.

Its a brilliant episode, I crack up everytime I see it.

 

[BKatastrophe]

I'm not a terribly big fan of Lies My Parents Told Me, if only because I find Giles' position weird and Wood overall unsympathetic.

Giles believes Buffy can't see the big picture through her own emotion. She thinks she needs to let Spike go because he's a risk to the wannabes. Except Spike is the second best fighter they have and, at that point, worth like 5 of the potentials. Even as a cold, detached general, the risk/reward is in favor of keeping Spike around.

Wood, meanwhile, compromises everything to settle a grudge he logically must know can not be settled. As Spike has his soul, the demon who killed his mother was not around. If I had been put in a position to feel sympathetic for Wood, that whole thing would have landed harder, but as it is I cheered happily as Spike beat his ass down.

I agree. Giles felt so out of character in S7, and while I liked Robin a lot, I felt that having Giles assist him in finishing his storyline was a bad idea. Could have easily just had him sneak Spike off on his own.

Beer Bad is indeed atrocious.

If I were to do a ranking of all 144, it would be 143/144 ahead of only "Normal Again", which is horrible in an entirely different sense.

I love "Normal Again". It fucks with you on a core emotional and psychological level. "Where the Wild Things Are" is my least favorite episode. "Beer Bad" at least has a couple choice funny moments.

 

[eot]

Watched some scattered episodes of this as a kid, but finally started watching it for real. Have heard too many good things about it over the years.

Have to say that it's a bit simplistic and predictable at least in the first season, but Sarah Michelle Gellar I'm gonna keep watching

 

[sixteen-bit]

this is off netflix now, right?

 

[Aske]

Have to say that it's a bit simplistic and predictable at least in the first season, but Sarah Michelle Gellar I'm gonna keep watching

You sound like 16 year old me. I stuck with the show through the first season pretty much just for Gellar. I'm still all about SMG, even to this day. And don't worry, the show gets much better very fast.

 

[Doctor Shatner]

this is off netflix now, right?

Sadly, yes. However, it is on Hulu still (not sure if anywhere else).

 

[SomTervo]

Watched some scattered episodes of this as a kid, but finally started watching it for real. Have heard too many good things about it over the years.

Have to say that it's a bit simplistic and predictable at least in the first season, but Sarah Michelle Gellar I'm gonna keep watching

Honestly... Season 2 and 3. Holy shit.

Then the whole rest of the show, which was WAY better than I remembered when i did exactly what you're doing

I haven't seen "The Zeppo" mentioned much, but it's one of my favorite episodes. If you don't remember, it focused on Xander thwarting some resurrected jocks from blowing up the school while Buffy and co. are battling an armageddon demon.

Yes, that was brilliant. And in classic Buffy fashion it's not just immediately forgotten - Xand actually mentions it at least once and grows thanks to it.

 

[bitbydeath]

"Beer Bad" is literally the worst hour of television I have ever seen

bit of a random observation but it's the first thing that always comes to mind for me whenever I see anything about that show

I didn't mind it. The worst Buffy episode that I can recall (Don't remember the name) but was set at Christmas time and was about Angel wanting to off himself and it ended up snowing at the end. Probably part of S3 and is easily the most boring episode ever.

 

[teh_pwn]

Routine Reminder Notification: You're getting old.

 

[Media]

I didn't mind it. The worst Buffy episode that I can recall (Don't remember the name) but was set at Christmas time and was about Angel wanting to off himself and it ended up snowing at the end. Probably part of S3 and is easily the most boring episode ever.

Amends *shudder*
Where The Wild Things Are Ranks up there too

 

[SchrodingerC]

God I'm pissed Netflix and Amazon prime no longer offers the show. I'm mean yeah Hulu still has it, but watching the show with a fuckton of commercials makes for a bad binging experience.

 

[Purkake4]

Amends *shudder*
Where The Wild Things Are Ranks up there too

What's the one where the (literal) x-files alien was sitting on people's ceilings and stealing their dreams (?)?

 

[shadow_shogun]

20...years, as two, zero. Fuck sake man.

 

[Lender]

What's the one where the (literal) x-files alien was sitting on people's ceilings and stealing their dreams (?)?

Season 5's Listening To Fear?

 

[Purkake4]

Season 5's Listening To Fear?

That's the one. Only one I skipped.

 

[Rodney McKay]

I haven't seen "The Zeppo" mentioned much, but it's one of my favorite episodes. If you don't remember, it focused on Xander thwarting some resurrected jocks from blowing up the school while Buffy and co. are battling an armageddon demon.

I've been rewatching Buffy with my girlfriend and I forgot how great this episode was.

Loved how it poked fun of a lot of the melodrama in Buffy by having Xander be an outside observer to what the gang goes through on a constant basis.

The undead jock storyline Xander had to deal with would have been mediocre, but it's goofiness was a perfect balance to the overly dramatic end of the world stuff the others were dealing with.

God I'm pissed Netflix and Amazon prime no longer offers the show. I'm mean yeah Hulu still has it, but watching the show with a fuckton of commercials makes for a bad binging experience.

Gotta get on that Hulu+ with no commercials plan. Makes ALL the difference.

 

[Media]

What's the one where the (literal) x-files alien was sitting on people's ceilings and stealing their dreams (?)?

Season 5's Listening To Fear?

I repressed it, oh god thanks for reminding me.

Edit: although it did have some awesome Spike saving the day in it.

 

[BKatastrophe]

That's the one. Only one I skipped.

Definitely what I would say is a definite blight on an otherwise fantastic season. Major plot episode, though. Pretty much hits every single season plot thread in a big way.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I thought it was too heavy handed on the 'college drinking is bad umkay' thing. Cave Buffy wasn't fun, but drunk Buffy was (as she was in Life Serial). I don't hate it through most (that goes to Where the Wild Things Are) but I do dislike it.

Beer Bad is a parody for me.

I just can't believe "beer bad" was put in seriously. Joss was pretty sharp at editing scripts.

 

[Slaythe]

While it wasn't in "Buffy", the cross overs were so rare I feel like it belongs.

"I will remember you" was definitely one of the best. The emotion SMG put into it is just heart wrenching.

 

[BKatastrophe]

Beer Bad is a parody for me.

I just can't believe "beer bad" was put in seriously. Joss was pretty sharp at editing scripts.

Considering Angel was going on at the same time, it's not surprising. Showrunning for one is hard enough. For two? I can't even imagine. And then when Firefly came on...well, we know what happened to S3 of Angel and S6 of BtVS is pretty polarizing to the fanbase.

Plus I think "Beer Bad" was a result of an initiative at the time that required shows to have one PSA episode, and so this was BtVS's. They literally didn't give a fuck.

 

[DrForester]

Recently finished up a re-watch. Haven't seen it in probably over 10 years.


Didn't like Xander as much as I remember when the show was on. Think this might have to do with being more aware that they really had no clue what to do with him in the later seasons.


Giles is still GOAT. I think my single favorite scene in the show might be when he crashes into Spike and Angel's lair and just starts beating the crap out of Angel.

Season 4 still sucks.

Liked season 5 a lot more. Glory was a really fun villain .


Buffy x Spike is a worse love story than Twilight. Just going to say it...

 

[BKatastrophe]

Recently finished up a re-watch. Haven't seen it in probably over 10 years.


Didn't like Xander as much as I remember when the show was on. Think this might have to do with being more aware that they really had no clue what to do with him in the later seasons.

It kinda feels like that, but the Scoobies are a fractured bunch in S6&7, and as the heart of the group, he loses his place. That was a huge part of his arc in S4. That basically was his arc in S4, actually.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

Considering Angel was going on at the same time, it's not surprising. Showrunning for one is hard enough. For two? I can't even imagine. And then when Firefly came on...well, we know what happened to S3 of Angel and S6 of BtVS is pretty polarizing to the fanbase.

It got even more awesome?

 

[BKatastrophe]

It got even more awesome?

That it's the most inconsistent and plot-hole ridden season with largely incompetent villains (save for Holtz). And St. Cordelia was awful as well. A terrible focus on love triangles and, oh, the only two episodes in the entire series that actually bored me. Easily the weakest season.

 

[ZeoVGM]

That it's the most inconsistent and plot-hole ridden season with largely incompetent villains (save for Holtz). And St. Cordelia was awful as well. A terrible focus on love triangles and, oh, the only two episodes in the entire series that actually bored me. Easily the weakest season.

This here is some crazy talk. Season 3 is fantastic.

 

[BKatastrophe]

This here is some crazy talk. Season 3 is fantastic.

I mean, that's fine. You do you, but it's easily the weakest season for me. Angel, Wesley, Fred, and Gunn? All on point. Cordelia? Nope. Lilah? Sure. Wolfram and Hart? Basically anime Team Rocket. Sahjan? Cool idea, largely incompetent. Holtz? Pretty great over all, but loses nuance as time goes on and I largely start to not care. Justine? Fine, I guess. Two incredibly boring episodes and a primary focus on romantic relationships, and it loses me.

Keep in mind, I still love this show to death, but as I've re-watched the show, S3 just loses it. It becomes so muddied and unfocused that I just don't care as much. By the end I just want it to be done and move on to S4, which I find to be the opposite, as it gets better and better every time I watch it.

 

[Rodney McKay]

Giles is still GOAT. I think my single favorite scene in the show might be when he crashes into Spike and Angel's lair and just starts beating the crap out of Angel.

Which episode was that? I'm rematching it too and don't seem to remember that scene and I'm at season 4 already (maybe it hasn't happened yet).

 

[Slaythe]

That it's the most inconsistent and plot-hole ridden season with largely incompetent villains (save for Holtz). And St. Cordelia was awful as well. A terrible focus on love triangles and, oh, the only two episodes in the entire series that actually bored me. Easily the weakest season.

I mean, everybody has their preferences, some people can't stand season 4.

But please understand you admit only two episodes bored you, out of 20. That's not a bad ratio .

Anyway the quality of the show didn't dive or anything, they just tried something else. And it definitely picked up later.

 

[SchrodingerC]

Gotta get on that Hulu+ with no commercials plan. Makes ALL the difference.

I would if I had more income, but alas my budget cannot justify getting the commercial free option.

 

[Media]

Recently finished up a re-watch. Haven't seen it in probably over 10 years.

Buffy x Spike is a worse love story than Twilight. Just going to say it...

There is no worse love story than Twilight.

At least Spike had redeemable qualities and Buffy wasn't a whiny sack of angst with no agency because he didn't love her.

Hell, I liked the season six trope flip of her being the abusive boyfriend

 

[DrForester]

There is no worse love story than Twilight.

At least Spike had redeemable qualities and Buffy wasn't a whiny sack of angst with no agency because he didn't love her.

Hell, I liked the season six trope flip of her being the abusive boyfriend

Edward never raped Bella

 

[BKatastrophe]

Which episode was that? I'm rematching it too and don't seem to remember that scene and I'm at season 4 already (maybe it hasn't happened yet).

"Passion"

I mean, everybody has their preferences, some people can't stand season 4.

But please understand you admit only two episodes bored you, out of 20. That's not a bad ratio .

Anyway the quality of the show didn't dive or anything, they just tried something else. And it definitely picked up later.

The fact that any completely and utterly bored me is bad. That's not good, and as I see it, the quality did drop.