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BushCo: Damn, I guess we were wrong!

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Deku said:
You may not but the law does. Clinton lied under oath about his relationship with Monica, that's why he got into trouble.

Most politicians are rat bastard anyways, regardless of political stripe. The GAF horde (simplistic) world view that everything will be better once Bush is gone is nothing more than a Fantasy.

It'll be better once all Neo-Cons are marginalized and are restricted to being a fringe group that has no real power. In the whole scheme of things, Bush is serving these people and their interests. If he's gone, someone else will do it. The same applies to the Democratic party as well. It's just that the Democratic party and those who support it don't seem to be interested in unjust wars, or curbing the rights of Americans.
 
Oops, did I say that?

George Bush reported yesterday that we are doing well in Iraq, but insisted that it was premature to talk about bringing troops home. What kind of a fantasy land does he live in? Then a friend sent me the following quotes that point out just how hypocritical our leaders are -- even when it comes to matters of life and death. At least we can hope that history will remind us of the truth and that it will eventually win out.

These are quotes offered up by Republican leaders back when President Clinton was committing U.S. troops to Bosnia. Reading them, you can almost feel like you’ve fallen through the looking glass...

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." -- Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

"You can support the troops but not the president." -- Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years." -- Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?" -- Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

"[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home." -- Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area." -- Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today" -- Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
 
:lol

Holy crap...

It also goes to show though, no matter whether Left or Right, Republican or Democrat, they all get the same tired old talking points from the same book :lol
 
Boogie said:
:lol

Holy crap...

It also goes to show though, no matter whether Left or Right, Republican or Democrat, they all get the same tired old talking points from the same book :lol
Sort of. The Democrats are so dumb they use the Republicans OLD books. They can't think or read for themselves.
 
xsarien said:
Given the usual track threads like this take, I'd put some money down that any "proof" presented to you would just be dismissed anyway.

You mean proof that Bush committed an impeachable offense?

I know you will find this hard to believe but there are people working much harder than you to prove this and up until now they have failed to come up with irrefutable evidence of any intentional wrong doing.

Get off your soap box. I'm not the person you should be trying to convince. When you present your case before congress I'll change my tune.
 
I for one don't think Bush committed an impeachable offense. He is a lying piece of shit, though. Sorry you numbwits don't see that.
 
Is this the whole "Did Bush commit an impeachable offense?" argument again? Because regardless if he did or not, he's still an asshole. From Cindy Sheehan's recent HP entry:

George Bush took a 2 hour bike ride on Saturday, and when he got back, he was asked how he could go for a two hour bike ride when he doesn't have time to meet with me, and he said: "I have to go on with my life." (Austin Statesman, August 14) WHAT!!!!!????? He has to get on with his life!!! I am so offended by that statement. Every person, war fan, or not, who has had a child killed in this mistake of an occupation should be highly offended by that remark. Who does he think he is? I wish I could EVER be able to get on with my life. Getting on with my life means a life without my dear, sweet boy. Getting on with my life means learning to live with a pain that is so intense that sometimes I feel like throwing up, or screaming until I pass out from sorrow. I wish a little bike ride could help me get on with my life.

At least he didn't fall off his bike yesterday.
 
Raoul Duke said:
I for one don't think Bush committed an impeachable offense. He is a lying piece of shit, though. Sorry you numbwits don't see that.

You basically said it. I think I'm more annoyed by the lack of intelligence or rather the ability of these self righteous Bush haters to actually understand why Bush hasn't yet been impeached whereas Clinton was.

Bush has lied, as do most politicians, but he hasn't done it under oath. And the really hilarious thing is watching these supposedly great and enlightened GAF minds getting bogged down in the severity of the lie (blowjob vs. war) while neglecting the fact that the context of the lies were entirely different.

I'm not a big fan of Bush, but watching most of the posters in this thread go around in circles, stomp their feet and do everything and say everything but see the obvious makes it really tempting for me root for Bush just to watch the reaction of this forum. If the quality of the thought expressed by the majority in this thread so far is what passes of progressive liberal thought these days, no wonder the Republicans keep winning elections. The opposition is not only blind, but is stupid and doesn't seem to know it, or rather, seem to think they are quite intelligent and above everyone else.
 
Diablos said:
No. He would have to cheat on his wife first.

Apparently, lying about cheating on your wife is worse than lying about a reason to justify the deaths of countless soldiers and innocent Iraqi civilians.

God bless the USA. ::barf::

And that in a nutshell is why I voted against Bush last year.
 
Deku said:
You basically said it. I think I'm more annoyed by the lack of intelligence or rather the ability of these self righteous Bush haters to actually understand why Bush hasn't yet been impeached whereas Clinton was.

Bush has lied, as do most politicians, but he hasn't done it under oath. And the really hilarious thing is watching these supposedly great and enlightened GAF minds getting bogged down in the severity of the lie (blowjob vs. war) while neglecting the fact that the context of the lies were entirely different.

I'm not a big fan of Bush, but watching most of the posters in this thread go around in circles, stomp their feet and do everything and say everything but see the obvious makes it really tempting for me root for Bush just to watch the reaction of this forum. If the quality of the thought expressed by the majority in this thread so far is what passes of progressive liberal thought these days, no wonder the Republicans keep winning elections. The opposition is not only blind, but is stupid and doesn't seem to know it, or rather, seem to think they are quite intelligent and above everyone else.

There's still a big difference. While what Clinton did was wrong and he deserved to be punished for it. But neither his affair nor his behavior on the stand killed anyone, or harmed the country's reputation worldwide, or made us less secure. Bush's actions have done all of those. He does not deserve to run this country.
 
Deku said:
You basically said it. I think I'm more annoyed by the lack of intelligence or rather the ability of these self righteous Bush haters to actually understand why Bush hasn't yet been impeached whereas Clinton was.

Bush has lied, as do most politicians, but he hasn't done it under oath. And the really hilarious thing is watching these supposedly great and enlightened GAF minds getting bogged down in the severity of the lie (blowjob vs. war) while neglecting the fact that the context of the lies were entirely different.

I'm not a big fan of Bush, but watching most of the posters in this thread go around in circles, stomp their feet and do everything and say everything but see the obvious makes it really tempting for me root for Bush just to watch the reaction of this forum. If the quality of the thought expressed by the majority in this thread so far is what passes of progressive liberal thought these days, no wonder the Republicans keep winning elections. The opposition is not only blind, but is stupid and doesn't seem to know it, or rather, seem to think they are quite intelligent and above everyone else.

You can't impeach presidents for just out right incompetence?

America, you art one fucked up inbred land.

A little more than half the time.
 
Deku said:
You basically said it. I think I'm more annoyed by the lack of intelligence or rather the ability of these self righteous Bush haters to actually understand why Bush hasn't yet been impeached whereas Clinton was.

Bush has lied, as do most politicians, but he hasn't done it under oath. And the really hilarious thing is watching these supposedly great and enlightened GAF minds getting bogged down in the severity of the lie (blowjob vs. war) while neglecting the fact that the context of the lies were entirely different.

I'm not a big fan of Bush, but watching most of the posters in this thread go around in circles, stomp their feet and do everything and say everything but see the obvious makes it really tempting for me root for Bush just to watch the reaction of this forum. If the quality of the thought expressed by the majority in this thread so far is what passes of progressive liberal thought these days, no wonder the Republicans keep winning elections. The opposition is not only blind, but is stupid and doesn't seem to know it, or rather, seem to think they are quite intelligent and above everyone else.
I agree with what you're saying (although you're going a bit overboard in your last paragraph), but what the fuck do you suggest we do? Not hate Bush? All I know is that Bush and his administration are fucking retards and I want them fucking ousted. By legal or illegal means, who gives a shit. Let the people who are actual left-wing politicians figure that out.
 
Deku said:
Bush has lied, as do most politicians, but he hasn't done it under oath.

Firstly so what? A lie is a lie regardless of the circumstances so the fine hairs you're splitting with this are ridiculous. Secondly, your claim that Bush hasn't lied under oath is wrong. As but one example of this is the State of the Union address, a constitutional requirement of the US presidential office in which Bush bullshitted his way through at least a couple in regards to Iraq's WMD capabilities.

In the end it's a pathetic indictment on your country that you would impeach a man over sexual deviance yet take no action to bring impeachment hearings against a man responsible for the deaths of 1,800 of your soldiers over a lie to justify a costly war. Really pathetic.
 
HokieJoe said:
I'm just curious- what did Bush lie about?

Do you see? That you can't even remember what was lied about... that kind of apathy, ignorance, forgetfulness... it's the kind of stuff that lets Bush get away with been scum of the earth and president of the united states at the same time.

He lied about the war... about the information that they had on WMDs. He assured the american people that they would find, that they were taking actions because they knew that WMDs were in Iraq. He went to war under that pretense.

In retrospect, not only was he poorly informed, unsure that there really were WMDs in Iraq, they've even reneged on the idea that they've actually helped Iraq... which is kinda what this whole debacle switched through half way through... from getting the WMDs to liberating Iraq.

They've admitted they dropped the ball on the WMDs. Now they've admitted that they've dropped the ball on the liberation of Iraq.

The entered on the pretense that this war would save more lives than it would take, lying constantly before the war about how sure they would get WMDs, how righteous it would be to save the Iraqis from their evil dictator.

They've lied about a whole load of other crap, but those are the two biggies.
 
Bush (R) 286 60,693,281 51
Kerry (D) 252 57,355,978 48

Electoral votes, popular votes, percentage.

Just remember Zaptruder, when you denigrate all Americans for re-electing Bush -- nearly half of us who voted, voted against him. And those who abstained have no right to complain.
 
SteveMeister said:
Bush (R) 286 60,693,281 51
Kerry (D) 252 57,355,978 48

Electoral votes, popular votes, percentage.

Just remember Zaptruder, when you denigrate all Americans for re-electing Bush -- nearly half of us who voted, voted against him. And those who abstained have no right to complain.

"A little more than half the time." ... I did specifically include that line because I know America isn't completely filled with junk... but sometimes it sure does seem like it.
 
xabre said:
Firstly so what? A lie is a lie regardless of the circumstances so the fine hairs you're splitting with this are ridiculous.
Lying is not an impeachable offense. Perjury is.

xabre said:
In the end it's a pathetic indictment on your country that you would impeach a man over sexual deviance yet take no action to bring impeachment hearings against a man responsible for the deaths of 1,800 of your soldiers over a lie to justify a costly war. Really pathetic.
I assume you're talking about getting a blow job, which isn't "sexual deviance," at least, I hope not. At least don't tell my wife that, or else she might become much less "accommodating." Also, no president has ever been impeached over so much as sexual impropriety let alone deviance. Now, a recent holder of the presidency did get impeached, but it was due to his perjury he committed trying to hide his sexual impropriety the he engaged in with a co-worker while testifying for a sexual harrassment lawsuit. It's odd that both conservatives and liberals want to make Clinton's impeachment about sex, but I truly believe that without the perjury, the articles of impeachment would not have passed.
 
SteveMeister said:
There's still a big difference. While what Clinton did was wrong and he deserved to be punished for it. But neither his affair nor his behavior on the stand killed anyone, or harmed the country's reputation worldwide, or made us less secure. Bush's actions have done all of those. He does not deserve to run this country.


The biggest difference, however, is that Clinton was maneuvered cleverly to the stand and forced to tell a lie under oath... an impeachable offense. Bush has not yet been maneuvered into that position with anything that is easily and openly provable. To be able to impeach, you've got to be able to prove it.
 
the only way Bush would get impeach is if he got caught with a dead woman in his bed, or a live man.

Really most of america doesn't approve of his job, but really just put their arms up and say "Well what can you do about it?"

Bush could eat babies in the middle of the Times Square. 51% of america would say "Ah, they were terrorist babies anyway." The rest would just say, "That's not surprising, but what can we do?" Now if he wiped his mouth with a page from a bible however, he'd be impeached faster than the Bush Admin can botch a war plan.
 
Squirrel Killer said:
Bullshit. He could've told the truth and nothing would've happened.

You show me a man who's willing to say to the world - under oath - that he not only cheated on his wife, but with the intern, and I'll show you the only person in the world not afraid of complete, utter humiliation.

Phoenix nailed it.
 
xsarien said:
You show me a man who's willing to say to the world - under oath - that he not only cheated on his wife, but with the intern, and I'll show you the only person in the world not afraid of complete, utter humiliation.
Well, sucks to be him then. If you're under oath, you either tell the truth or accept the consequences of lying. Clinton was impeached because he committed perjury, not because he got a blow job. And while normally even lying about a blow job isn't that important, given that Clinton was testifying in a lawsuit regarding alleged sexual harassment bu him, his getting a hummer from an intern, even a psycho stalker intern, is fairly relevant.
 
There must be some strange meta-physical phenomenon that occurs whenever someone discusses impeaching Bush makes people talk about Clinton instead of Bush...
 
ronito said:
There must be some strange meta-physical phenomenon that occurs whenever someone discusses impeaching Bush makes people talk about Clinton instead of Bush...

Standard practice, really. When there's absolutely no defense for Bush, just bring up "HAY CLINTON LIED UNDER OATH ABOUT DAT HUMMER! LOLZ!"
 
Squirrel Killer, and are you denying that the charges brought against Clinton were nothing more than an excuse to put him in a situation where he'd perjure himself?

Really, issues of adultery should never have even been brought before a judge, and that's the REAL shame of this whole debacle.

Bush, on the other hand, has waged a WAR on completely fabricated pretenses and cost America the lives of 2000 soldiers, as well as squandered our standing as an international advocate for democracy and put countless Iraqi civilian lives at risk. It can also be argued that the climate for terrorism has only grown more fertile thanks to Bush's actions as well; if all of this isn't grounds for impeachment, I dunno what is. Bush and his Administration are UTTERLY INCOMPETENT and cannot do their job. Remove them.
 
Whoa, whoa--So Bush is a little like the rapist caught pounding granny's ass that gets off on a technicality, like say, no search warrant? Good to know.
 
Yeah, I'd like Squirrel Killer, Loxy, et al to go ahead and just do something for me: point out the competency of this administration. That's what this thread is about. Not Clinton.

This administration. Competency. I'm waiting.
 
Drinky Crow said:
Squirrel Killer, and are you denying that the charges brought against Clinton were nothing more than an excuse to put him in a situation where he'd perjure himself?
Drinky Crow, I'm not doing anything of the sort. I am, however, saying that whatever reason Clinton had to lie under oath, he still committed perjury, which is an impeachable offense. Regardless of the crackpots' intent, Clinton chose to perjure himself. No one forced too.

Drinky Crow said:
Really, issues of adultery should never have even been brought before a judge, and that's the REAL shame of this whole debacle.
Are you denying that sexual activities with an intern are relevant to a workplace sexual harrassment lawsuit?

Drinky Crow said:
Bush, on the other hand, has waged a WAR on completely fabricated pretenses and cost America the lives of 2000 soldiers, as well as squandered our standing as an international advocate for democracy and put countless Iraqi civilian lives at risk. It can also be argued that the climate for terrorism has only grown more fertile thanks to Bush's actions as well; if all of this isn't grounds for impeachment, I dunno what is. Bush and his Administration are UTTERLY INCOMPETENT and cannot do their job. Remove them.
There's little there that I would disagree with there, except* to say that you need to either vote them out or find impeachable offenses, and then I'll be right there with you.

* Well, that and I'd disagree with the "completely fabricated" bit, but I think I covered that earlier in the thread. Basically, I think GWB incorrectly undervalued evidence which didn't support his view. Which is intellectually dishonest, but not exactly an outright lie.

Raoul Duke said:
Yeah, I'd like Squirrel Killer, Loxy, et al to go ahead and just do something for me: point out the competency of this administration.
Not taking the bait Raoul, because I'm not defending the competency of the GWB administration. Just the fact that their wrongs haven't yet risen to the level of an impeachable offense. Yet.
 
The Experiment said:
Bolded for bullshit.
Well lets be honest here, it wasn't the DNC in recent history that tried to interfere with a womans right to die, passed the PATRIOT ACT, kills science funding, tortures political prisoners and refuses to have things taught in schools which might shake the foundation of their belief structure, constitutional or not. It's not the DNC putting recess-appointments to positions for a short-term period because they know that they cannot get a vote from Congress at any other time.

Not to say that the DNC doesn't have its own agenda here, but it's pretty obvious to me that this administration is more than willing to trample peoples rights in order to get what they want.

And we'll never know whether Bush lied about the war under oath or not, because the only time he's even taken an oath to give testimony was in private at the 9/11 Hearings. For all we know he could have known about the whole plan and testified that he didn't. Not saying that he DID, as I doubt it... but it's possible. The point is that if he did, we'll never know. So instead of saying "Bush hasn't comitted perjury yet," I'll just go with the fine example his administration has set and assume he's innocent until he's proven guilty.
 
loxy said:
Sorry but that's not how America works.

I respect the United States Constitution and I think we would be less civilized if we ever did what you are suggesting here but hey, that's just my opinion.
So you disagree that he should be impeached since he hasn't lied under oath, but do you agree that he should take the stand as Clinton did? And if he answered as he usually does (ie, lies), he should be impeached?

Deku said:
You basically said it. I think I'm more annoyed by the lack of intelligence or rather the ability of these self righteous Bush haters to actually understand why Bush hasn't yet been impeached whereas Clinton was.

Bush has lied, as do most politicians, but he hasn't done it under oath. And the really hilarious thing is watching these supposedly great and enlightened GAF minds getting bogged down in the severity of the lie (blowjob vs. war) while neglecting the fact that the context of the lies were entirely different.

I'm not a big fan of Bush, but watching most of the posters in this thread go around in circles, stomp their feet and do everything and say everything but see the obvious makes it really tempting for me root for Bush just to watch the reaction of this forum. If the quality of the thought expressed by the majority in this thread so far is what passes of progressive liberal thought these days, no wonder the Republicans keep winning elections. The opposition is not only blind, but is stupid and doesn't seem to know it, or rather, seem to think they are quite intelligent and above everyone else.
You're silly. People may fail to understand/acknowledge an important technicality, but there's still something fundamentally wrong with the comparison between Clinton and Bush in regards to which was nearly removed as President. So, I'd sooner give them a pass than get so uptight about their complaints.

And I looooove the "I'm not a big fan of Bush" line that you get from those that obviously subconsciously pull for the guy, but are too ashamed to admit it.

"I'm not a big fan of cancer, but I hate all the people that try to cure it"
 
Squirrel Killer: Workplace sexual harassment my ass! Monica wanted him, he wanted her, she was like 24 years old at the time - old enough to know what is right and what is wrong to do in the workplace and with other people of a certain status (occupational, political, relational, etc). If she felt like she was getting harassed, she would've taken the necessary steps to deal with that prior to deciding to have sexual relations with Bill Clinton. So get that shit outta here and please don't ever use it in an argument again, online or off.
 
Diablos said:
Squirrel Killer: Workplace sexual harassment my ass! Monica wanted him, he wanted her, she was like 24 years old at the time - old enough to know what is right and what is wrong to do in the workplace and with other people of a certain status (occupational, political, relational, etc). If she felt like she was getting harassed, she would've taken the necessary steps to deal with that prior to deciding to have sexual relations with Bill Clinton. So get that shit outta here and please don't ever use it in an argument again, online or off.
Get your own shit outta here and please don't ever use it in an argument again, online or off. Clinton was testifing under oath regarding the Paula Jones sexual harassment case, the issue of whether Clinton is engaging with sexual relations with another co-worker is relevant, even if both particpants are willing.
 
Squirrel Killer said:
Get your own shit outta here and please don't ever use it in an argument again, online or off. Clinton was testifing under oath regarding the Paula Jones sexual harassment case, the issue of whether Clinton is engaging with sexual relations with another co-worker is relevant, even if both particpants are willing.
As if you wouldn't have nailed her.
 
Socreges said:
And I looooove the "I'm not a big fan of Bush" line that you get from those that obviously subconsciously pull for the guy, but are too ashamed to admit it.

"I'm not a big fan of cancer, but I hate all the people that try to cure it"

Christ man... with this kind of black and white guesswork, you'd make Joseph McCarthy proud. :D

See, I fucking LOVE people like you, socreges, cuz you're so quick to put down people like Bush and friends for shit like not supporting free speech and stuff, but then you're so quick to put down everyone who doesn't say exactly what you think. YOU'RE the kind of person that makes people like me and other free-thinking liberals get stereotyped, because it seems to me that you only want free speech when people are agreeing with you. But if they don't agree with you, "THEN THEY MUST LOVE BUSH, EVEN IF THEY SAY THEY DONT LIKE HIM. THEY JUST LIE LIKE THE DIRTY REPUBLICANS THEY ARE!"
 
Socreges said:
You're silly. People may fail to understand/acknowledge an important technicality, but there's still something fundamentally wrong with the comparison between Clinton and Bush in regards to which was nearly removed as President. So, I'd sooner give them a pass than get so uptight about their complaints.

It's not silly, it's called common sense. If you want to talk about the lies put forward to convince a country to go to war, by all means do so. But somehow, many posts here start out with a rant about Bush not getting impeached, then comparing the severity of the lie to Clinton's and then going on a rant about it.

Any sane person that does not have his head up his own ideological bullshit will see how hilariously funny the fact the you guys MISS THE POINT of what you're whining about. Impeachment and Bush's lies don't go together. Get some context.


And I looooove the "I'm not a big fan of Bush" line that you get from those that obviously subconsciously pull for the guy, but are too ashamed to admit it.

"I'm not a big fan of cancer, but I hate all the people that try to cure it"

Wow. So in your world, people are either "With you (in hatred against Bush)" or "against you." I find it increadibly ironic that you think in extremes only, just like Bush and his neo-con friends and further proves my suspicion that people on political extremes are exactly alike, they just happen to want different brands shit plastered on the world.

I'm a political centrist, which means I probably don't hate Bush as much as you do, but I'm not an idiot either and I agree with most of the non exagerrated claims made against him, including his insipid lies. I bet you're also the same kind of people who thought Fahrenheit 9-11 was the highwatermark for documentary filmmaking.
 
Squirrel Killer said:
Get your own shit outta here and please don't ever use it in an argument again, online or off. Clinton was testifing under oath regarding the Paula Jones sexual harassment case, the issue of whether Clinton is engaging with sexual relations with another co-worker is relevant, even if both particpants are willing.
Fine. But I'm trying to say that it was not sexual harassment. Please re-read my post, maybe you'll get it. I'm not saying Clinton didn't lie; what I'm saying is that a lot of people seem to think Monica is some victim, and she's not.
 
Diablos said:
Fine. But I'm trying to say that it was not sexual harassment. Please re-read my post, maybe you'll get it. I'm not saying Clinton didn't lie; what I'm saying is that a lot of people seem to think Monica is some victim, and she's not.
Diablos, your statement "a lot of people seem to think Monica is some victim" shows where we're talking past each other.

Clinton was being sued by Paula Jones for alleged sexual harassment. During his testimony in that case, he was asked about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. He lied about that relationship. That lie did not harm Lewinski, but rather, it hurt Jones' sexual harassment suit. It doesn't matter that Jones was a money seeking whore. It doesn't matter that Jones was ugly. It doesn't matter that Jones was led around by the nose by a bunch of right wing crackpots. It doesn't matter whether or not Clinton's relationship with Lewinski was or was not sexual harassment. It doesn't even matter that Monica was a willing participant. Clinton lied under oath in testimony that may have helped his position in civil lawsuit. That's perjury, and that's an impeachable offense.
 
georgecarlin1ql.jpg

"Look how far we've fallen. JFK was high class, he was screwin' Marilyn Monroe! Bill Clinton showed his dick to a government clerk. Ugh."
 
Deku said:
It's not silly, it's called common sense. If you want to talk about the lies put forward to convince a country to go to war, by all means do so. But somehow, many posts here start out with a rant about Bush not getting impeached, then comparing the severity of the lie to Clinton's and then going on a rant about it.

Any sane person that does not have his head up his own ideological bullshit will see how hilariously funny the fact the you guys MISS THE POINT of what you're whining about. Impeachment and Bush's lies don't go together. Get some context.
You guys? What now? I agree that they completely miss the point, but you just became way too intense over it.

whytemyke said:
Christ man... with this kind of black and white guesswork, you'd make Joseph McCarthy proud. :D

See, I fucking LOVE people like you, socreges, cuz you're so quick to put down people like Bush and friends for shit like not supporting free speech and stuff, but then you're so quick to put down everyone who doesn't say exactly what you think. YOU'RE the kind of person that makes people like me and other free-thinking liberals get stereotyped, because it seems to me that you only want free speech when people are agreeing with you. But if they don't agree with you, "THEN THEY MUST LOVE BUSH, EVEN IF THEY SAY THEY DONT LIKE HIM. THEY JUST LIE LIKE THE DIRTY REPUBLICANS THEY ARE!"
Deku said:
Wow. So in your world, people are either "With you (in hatred against Bush)" or "against you." I find it increadibly ironic that you think in extremes only, just like Bush and his neo-con friends and further proves my suspicion that people on political extremes are exactly alike, they just happen to want different brands shit plastered on the world.

I'm a political centrist, which means I probably don't hate Bush as much as you do, but I'm not an idiot either and I agree with most of the non exagerrated claims made against him, including his insipid lies. I bet you're also the same kind of people who thought Fahrenheit 9-11 was the highwatermark for documentary filmmaking.
What magical, astounding inferences you two have made from my comment. In fact, I think it puts my assumption to shame!

Listen, my post was more concerned with the people that dance around the OT defending Bush for the most bizarre reasons (honestly, Deku, your intense response to everyone was so suspect), but always place a disclaimer that "Hey, I don't actually like Bush" despite their posts often implying otherwise. Now, Deku, maybe you don't apply (in such a case, my apologies for including you), but at that moment I couldn't have passed up the opportunity to make that comment.
 
perjury is only an impeachable offense when the lie harms our country. really, that's what the framers had set out.

bill clinton lying about an office blow job because ken starr had some odd oral fetish and wanted to peel off every layer of clinton's life isn't the grounbreaking impeachable offense you wish it to be.

get over it, squirrel killer. i realize the "adultery" part probably hits close to home in that moral stomach of yours, but save me the rants on removing him from office.
 
bob_arctor said:
Whoa, whoa--So Bush is a little like the rapist caught pounding granny's ass that gets off on a technicality, like say, no search warrant? Good to know.

If that outrageous interpretation is what it takes to put this "impeach Bush!" nonsense to rest, sure.


Raoul Duke said:
Yeah, I'd like Squirrel Killer, Loxy, et al to go ahead and just do something for me: point out the competency of this administration. That's what this thread is about. Not Clinton.

This administration. Competency. I'm waiting.


Define competency.

The Bush Paradox
From the July 4 / July 11, 2005 issue: Why do his fortunes lag as the economy improves?
by Jeffrey Bell & Cesar Conda
07/04/2005, Volume 010, Issue 40


THREE YEARS AGO, IN the 2002 election cycle, the economy was sluggish, struggling to emerge from the recession and the dislocations of 9/11. According to most polls, President Bush received solid ratings on his handling of the economy. Today, GDP growth has firmed at 4 percent a year, and several million new jobs have been created since the economy bottomed in the first Bush term. The inflation rate remains low, as have long-term interest rates, including home mortgage rates. President Bush has unfavorable ratings on his handling of the economy, and the trend of recent polls has been down.

Whatever happened to the old rules? Has a strong and improving economy become a political negative for sitting presidents?

Part of the anomaly undoubtedly relates to the politics of wartime. The president was highly rated for his conduct of the war on terrorism in 2002, and some of that capital appeared to spill over onto his economic rating. By the same token, the spike in suicide bombings in Iraq in the last few months is no doubt casting a pall on voters' ratings of the president's performance on issues seemingly unrelated to the war. The lesson, if there is one: A wartime government is well advised either to conduct a visibly successful war effort, or at least to be holding its own in the political debate over why progress has slowed or gone into reverse.

The president's failure to reap political benefits from a strong economy may stem from aspects of the domestic debate as well. It seems implausible that voters, tens of millions of whom have refinanced their homes and improved their balance sheets, are utterly oblivious to recent economic gains. It is interesting that one of the recent national polls found voters' view of the strength of the economy going up even while the president's rating on economic issues has continued to slide.

In the president's first four years, it was often the Democrats who were baffled by this sort of conundrum. That is, George W. Bush seemed consistently to overperform politically. To Democrats, his political strength was greater than the facts of the issues--the war, the economy, domestic issues like health care, values issues like gay rights and stem-cell research--seemed to warrant. Today, particularly on the economy, he appears weaker than the objective facts would seem to warrant. What has changed?

Not the ups and downs of war. The failure to find weapons of mass destruction and the retreat from Falluja were, if anything, lower lows for Bush and his administration than the current wave of suicide bombings. There are Democratic strategists still in a state of shock that Bush was able to win the election in the face of such stinging setbacks in the war.

Not polarization. The hallmark of national politics since 2000 has been intense partisanship and ideological strife in a closely divided nation. So far in the second term, this shows no sign of changing.

In fact, to many Republicans the continuation of a high degree of polarization has come as something of a surprise. In the elections of 2002 and 2004, it was Bush and the Republicans who seemed adept at riding the wave of polarization. Both these elections were brutal, closely contested, and in doubt until the very end. Yet not only did Bush defeat John Kerry, but Republicans gained House and Senate seats in both 2002 and 2004.

Democratic attrition was particularly striking in the Senate. From an edge of 50-49-1 following the 2001 defection of James Jeffords, Democrats found themselves at 44-55-l in 2005. Under Tom Daschle the Senate had become the focus of bitter-end obstruction of the Bush agenda, on issues ranging from judges to energy to the faith-based initiative. With the Democratic losses and Daschle's own defeat in South Dakota, many Republicans assumed that Senate Democrats would begin to scale back their confrontational stance toward Bush.

Instead, Democratic Senate leaders have widened their use of the filibuster from Bush judicial nominees to U.N. ambassador-designate John Bolton, and may even filibuster the president's first appointment to the Supreme Court. On a series of second-tier issues like bankruptcy reform and class-action lawsuits, increased Republican Senate strength has helped carry the day. But the significance of these Bush victories is small in comparison with the impact of Senate-centered polarization on Bush's high-profile second-term agenda on the economy and Social Security.

In the first term, Bush won his biggest domestic victories with the tax-cut bills of 2001 and 2003. Both of these bills cleared the Senate under budget rules that prohibit filibusters. The 2003 tax cut, which moved up the effective date of the 2001 tax cuts and achieved a bold, unexpectedly large reduction in the double taxation of dividends, cleared its major Senate hurdle on a tie vote.

The heart of Bush's second-term domestic agenda is three big items: making the first-term tax cuts permanent; reforming Social Security by scaling back its demographic deficit and carving personal retirement accounts from the payroll tax; followed by broad-based tax reform, to be shaped later this year by the report of a Bush-appointed study group.

These three proposals, the third of which is not yet defined, have one simple element in common: They cannot be passed with Republican votes alone. None of them fit into the simple-majority context of a budget resolution. This year's Republican-backed budget resolution, which stretches ahead five years, can extend some tax cuts scheduled to expire at the end of 2008 to the end of 2010, and almost certainly will do so. But to make the tax cuts permanent under Senate budget rules, a minimum of 60 senators would be needed to overcome a point of order. The same 60 votes would be needed to enact a broad reform of the tax code, or to make the huge changes in Social Security the president has asked for. Of their nature, the three big items of Bush's second-term agenda will have to be bipartisan, or they won't happen at all.

Six months ago, it appeared plausible that Bush could push one or more of these things toward enactment. In the first term, he effectively used the presidential bully pulpit to overcome resistance to his war strategy and his tax-cut-centered economic strategy. But there appears to be something about his second-term economic agenda that is not only resistant to the bully pulpit, but shows signs of denying Bush credit for the kind of strong economic growth that normally benefits an incumbent administration. As long as this is the political dynamic, Democrats have no incentive to reduce the level of confrontation--not when the very thing that often stung them in the first Bush term appears to be helping them now.

What explains this dynamic? One explanation may be that the three big-ticket items are not just bipartisan, they are interrelated. Momentum on one can improve the chances for momentum on one or more of the others. It can be argued, for instance, that the stock market has underperformed this year in relation to the robust growth of business profits and continued low long-term interest rates. One factor restraining stock prices has to be the growing likelihood that this Congress will not make the tax cuts permanent. In turn, the lack of a bull market this year undoubtedly makes the idea of personal accounts appear less attractive than otherwise would be the case.

For the dynamic of obstruction and polarization to change, and barring a road-to-Damascus turnaround by Senate Democrats, the politics of the economic debate must change in the president's favor. The likeliest way for this to happen is by a return to confrontational debate on the tax issue.

The Bush tax cuts have now been effective for about two years, and more and more conclusive data on their impact is becoming available. Recent numbers from the Congressional Budget Office show a surge in income tax revenue (around 15 percent higher than a year earlier) well beyond most predictions--and utterly contrary to Democratic lamentations about a hollowing out of the tax base due to Bush's "tax cuts for the rich." With little left to gain in this Congress by downplaying partisan disagreement on taxes, the administration should soon be taking credit for the success of the 2001-2003 tax cuts in stimulating strong growth, as well as producing unexpectedly strong revenues.

With uncertain present prospects of congressional movement on Social Security or making the tax cuts permanent, the report of Bush's tax reform group later this summer takes on great importance. In the present mood, little will be gained by trying to split the difference between the parties' approaches to tax reform, or by offering incremental change. As Bob Packwood figured out as Senate Finance Committee chairman in 1986, a sudden movement toward a very broad tax base and unexpectedly low rates is much more likely to get people's attention than tinkering on details. Ask Senate Democrats to explain why a simple, low-rate tax code should be still another occasion for obstruction. The minute they open their mouths, the political dynamics of the economic debate will again begin to favor the president.

-------

Jeffrey Bell is a principal of Capital City Partners, a Washington consulting firm. Cesar Conda is a principal of Navigators, LLC, a Washington consulting firm, and served from 2001-2003 as economic adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney.

While things might not be going as planned in Iraq and where, personally, I may not agree with some of the decisions made, this administration is far from incompetent.


whytemyke said:
And we'll never know whether Bush lied about the war under oath or not, because the only time he's even taken an oath to give testimony was in private at the 9/11 Hearings. For all we know he could have known about the whole plan and testified that he didn't. Not saying that he DID, as I doubt it... but it's possible. The point is that if he did, we'll never know. So instead of saying "Bush hasn't comitted perjury yet," I'll just go with the fine example his administration has set and assume he's innocent until he's proven guilty.

And if he didn't lie we'd never know either. It's a point of little significance.


Socreges said:
So you disagree that he should be impeached since he hasn't lied under oath, but do you agree that he should take the stand as Clinton did? And if he answered as he usually does (ie, lies), he should be impeached?

Bush hasn't committed an impeachable offense yet. What is there not to understand here?

I laugh at your inability to accept this.

Socreges said:
You're silly. People may fail to understand/acknowledge an important technicality, but there's still something fundamentally wrong with the comparison between Clinton and Bush in regards to which was nearly removed as President. So, I'd sooner give them a pass than get so uptight about their complaints.

And I looooove the "I'm not a big fan of Bush" line that you get from those that obviously subconsciously pull for the guy, but are too ashamed to admit it.

"I'm not a big fan of cancer, but I hate all the people that try to cure it"

:lol

Brilliant deduction.
 
Incognito said:
perjury is only an impeachable offense when the lie harms our country.
Apparently not.

Incognito said:
get over it, squirrel killer.
That's rich. :lol

Incognito said:
i realize the "adultery" part probably hits close to home in that moral stomach of yours, but save me the rants on removing him from office.
What the hell do you mean by that? I have no problem with Clinton getting BJ from someone other than his wife. Seriously. Additionally, I was personally against the investigation and thought (and still think) Paula Jones' case was weak. Ask some of my Republican friends who knew me during that time frame. But once he committed perjury, all bets were off. And should GWB commit perjury, or some other impeachable offense, fuck him too.
 
Oh yeah, I'm so sorry Socreges. I must have offended your honor.
Socreges said:
And I looooove the "I'm not a big fan of Bush" line that you get from those that obviously subconsciously pull for the guy, but are too ashamed to admit it.
Now that I requote what you said, I can now SURELY see exactly where I made an inference that you're an outlandish bastard who slams everyone that doesn't see anything the exact way that you do. In my critical reanalysis, I can now see that you have left TONS of room for people to disagree with you without being called a fan of Bush.

And don't talk about other people drawing inferences from your own shit when you're QUOTED as using OTHER PEOPLES SUBCONSCIOUS as a basis for your observation.
 
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